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Australia Taps More Phones Than Entire U.S.
An anonymous reader writes "Last year Australian authorities tapped more phones all United States authorities combined. Australian phones were tapped at 20 times the rate of phones in the US according to this article in the Sydney Morning herald. The fact was revealed during a debate in the Australian parliament. The government is attempting to pass new legislation to to make it even easier for the country's domestic spy agency ASIO to tap phones." Update: 09/16 14:07 GMT by T : Julian Assange writes "The Australian is also running the story and has better stats." Thanks for the link.
Lucky We Live In A Free Country Like America!
:-)
See What Happens When Citizens Give Up Their Guns?
This Would Never Happen If Australia Had A First Amendment Like The US!
Just wanted to get those out of the way. Carry on.
I think that maybe CIA/FBI statistics are a little less forthcoming than those from ASIO. With all these measures to prevent terrorism, I'd assume that the CIA and FBI combined would be at least 20 times what they were just over a year ago anyway.
In short: I don't believe it.
The USA can keep dreaming that they have privacy, but guys, face it - you don't live in the land of the free any more.
They're welcome to our line. I admire anyone that could stand more than 5 minutes of listening to the crap that my sister speaks about all day long on the phone.
Silly. What did you think seti was for?
To spy ET phone home..
I live in the Netherlands (pop 15 million, about as much as NYC) and the police over here taps more phones than the whole of the US.
It's not as much the phone taps that are in place that worry me. It's the taps that should be there and that are prevented by corrupt officials.
Land of the free. Yeah sure, but only when you've bought your local politician/whatever.
the pun is mightier than the sword
Echelon makes this kind of irrelevant. The 5 countries that are part of Echelon (US, UK, Canada, Australia, and NZ) can basically listen in on ANY phone call/fax/email/IP etc in any of the other countries. There are some computers here in New Zealand that are directly controlled by the US (NSA I think). This means that the NZ govt (and Aust govt etc) can listen to US phone calls. Now part of the reason it is set up like this is that the US authorities can use the NZ bit of the network to listen to US calls. This way it is technically not "domestic spying" as it is occurring over here.
I guess the wiretaps they're talking about here are for court-issued wiretaps for the police, rather than the secret services.
especially telling.
Guess that explains everything. The crooks, labor organizers, and opposition, have mastered the "sophistication" of the telephone.
Anybody can work under ideal circumstances. -- Jeff K. (January 4, 2001)
A friend of mine was raided by the Federal Police in full gear. They spent over $1 million ($500,000 $US) trying to get this guy..... And they turned up _nothing_ We found out from a contact in the Federal Police that naturally his phone was tapped, as were all his closer friends (this includes me).
It disturbes me that I was watched because of guilt by association with someone who was NOT guilty of anything.
Yes, Australia has a constitution!
http://www.dpmc.gov.au/docs/constitution.cfm
Actually, we do have one. See http://www.chanrobles.com/australia.htm I think what you're reffering to in part is the Common Law, which we have adopted along with many other English conventions.
I kind of doubt US government agencies could give an accurate accounting of how many phones they have tapped if they wanted to, and they probably don't even want to. And "tapped" probably doesn't take into account any kind of monitoring and audio keyword search that isn't aimed at a specific person.
For instance, with regard to freedom of speech, the UK government can use something called a D-notice to suppress press reports that it doesn't like
As I understand it D-notices was/is a somewhat bizarre scheme, a kind of gentleman's agreement between newspaper editors and the Department of Defense whereby the DoD would supply the newspaper editors with privilaged access to certain information if they agreed not to publish it. It wasn't a legal thing as far as I am aware - the editors could (and some did) tell the DoD to stuff their D-notices.
With regards to freedom of speech in the UK it is something that is pretty fundamental. For instance UK journalists and newscasters are really hard questioners and don't give politicians an easy time in the way they do in many countries...
Last night I was lying in bed trying to get to sleep when I thought I heard a strange noise coming from the bathroom.
Knowing that I wouldn't be able to doze off until the mystery was solved, I hauled by sad ass out of bed and stumbled down the hall to the "little room"
At first I thought it must just be tinnitus because the sound was really indistinct and seemed to be coming from multiple directions at once.
After a few minutes walking around the bathroom with my hands cupped to my ears I finally traced the source of the noise to the basin.
Yes, those bastard law-enforcement officials -- they'd phoned my tap!
It's a far larger amount certainly, but of a fairly small number.
To recap, Australia did 2150 taps in 19million people, the US did 1490 taps on 284 million.
For Australia, that's about one in 10,000 people, compared to about one in 200,000 people for the US
a grrl & her server
so ggod in living in a developing country .. our phones dont work half of the time whew ;-)
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Let's see, we have:
On the other hand we also have
Hmm, depends who the politicians pick to interview them...
... at least the Aussie's have better high-tech wireless phones than the US ...
Thank you, I'll be here all week ... :) remember to tip your waitress ...
Hmmm. I don't think I would call Johnny Vaughan, Richard and Judy or Ali G news journalists.
Mind you, I remember Ali G asking Edward Heath if she ever fancied giving Thatcher a quickie, which is a pretty tough question...
Actually, Australia's constitution came into effect on 1 Jan 1901 - the day we federated. So it was quite a significant day. It established and defined the relationship between the all states. It took a long time to develop - and was done by a group of clear-thinking, diverse people in a fiery debate - where no one got killed.
(People often walked out, but no one got killed. And the process went for years) until finally the fiction that is the Australian constitution was born. Somehow, we managed to develop a Clayton's monarchy, (the monarchy you have when you're not having a monarchy).
And now lots of people want to change the constitution - because of this very clever fiction. But I'm sure in the process they'll remove a lot of the freedoms that are currently afforded to Australian's if they are allowed to change it one iota. Then we won't be able to walk down the street with the right to be free from fear of drive-by shootings and there will proabably be more allowances and less restrictions phone tappings by incompetent organisations like ASIO.
If ASIO were so good at tapping phones, how come the newspaper knows about it? Is it just me, or is the real story - we know about more Aussies having their phones tapped than we know about American phones being tapped?
Now the CIA, there's an agency that really knows where its towel is (and how to keep its phone-tapping under wraps).
---- *dog sitting next to a computer, with his beady eyes shifting left to right*
Whenever a country experiences a surge in crime, (because of a bad economy or new methods by crooks or a new street drug) it runs the risk of a major backlash in the form of draconian punishments, abolition of civil liberties, and sometimes vigilantism. The backlash never solves the problem, which means it can repeat itself again and again. The appearance of crack cocaine in America caused the public to tolerate aggressive tactics by the DEA and then by other TLAs, culminating in Waco. Europe and Australia now tolerate promiscuous phone tapping. Britain is almost a panopticon now, and is loosening regulations on psychiatric commitment. Eternal vigilance, folks. Nothing else suffices.
Looks like our little Johnny Howard has been following the lead of the US more than we first imagined. I'd imagine he'll be constructing the Aussie version of the PATRIOT Act next. Depressing and, at the same time, completely unsuprising.
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When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer our friend.
that's nothing. in america we spent over $30 million investigating one guy over a land deal and ended up barely being able to prove that he lied to people that he had an affair - and that was just because a private citizen illegally recorded some phone conversations.
as usual we americans are better at everything - including abusing civil liberties. so there.
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
Call some random person...
*ring* *ring* *ring*
"Hello?"
"The secret website is goatse.cx!"
"Huh?"
*click*
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
No. It involves the Offical Secrets Act, and basically amounts to "information about the theft of that anthrax from Porton Down is classified. If you tell anyone about it, we'll lock you up." There's a specific exemption to our Freedom of Expression for "national security" - basically, the Ministry of Defence (MoD; DoD is the US version) can just turn up and gag you on any matter they feel like. They can't gag you about, say, a politician screwing his secretary, but anything military or relating to the security services is another matter: just ask David Shayler...
(The theft I mention was actually referred to by one paper at the time: the British lab at Porton Down was broken into, and had three things stolen - one being a sample of Foot and Mouth, another being Anthrax. For some strange reason, it wasn't referred to again...)
They aren't, relativly speaking. All they are doing is admitting how many taps they used. If only other governments would follow suit...
U
nauthorised wiretapping by intelligence agencies is kinda nasty, but they can't use it to convict you (directly).
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
These bills are thus likely to fail in the Senate, as the opposition is opposing the bill and the green-left minor parties that hold the balance of power were *never* going to vote in favour of it.
This is (at last) a somewhat politically courageous action by the opposition, because standing up for civil liberties is rarely politically advantagous and will run the risk of the government accusing them of risking Australia's national security or some such nonsense. Kudos to Labor for actually showing a little backbone.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
No. It involves the Offical Secrets Act,[..]
Nope, I think I was correct in my orginal post. From the official web site (www.dnotice.org.uk):
"The DA-Notices are intended to provide to national and provincial newspaper editors, to periodicals editors, to radio and television organisations and to relevant book publishers, general guidance on those areas of national security which the Government considers it has a duty to protect. The Notices, together with a General Introduction, details of the Committee and how to contact the Secretary, are widely distributed to editors, producers and publishers and also to officials in Government departments, military commanders, chief constables and some institutions. The Notices have no legal standing and advice offered within their framework may be accepted or rejected partly or wholly."
I have also read an opinion piece about D-Notices by the editor of a national publication (I don't remember which), in which he said he basically ignored them. It is a system that apparently used to work - when it was a gentlemen's agreement type thing - but doesn't really any more.
I really hope you were trolling. I'll bite anyway.
The Australian Constitution does not guarantee us any freedoms at all. If you read it, it's all about how power is divided between the State and Federal governments and the Governor General. There's no Bill of Rights, no guarantees of anything for the citizens save the right to vote in elections. Australian governments can pass any oppressive legislation they want.
We do have a pretty lame kind of freedom of speech, but you won't find it anywhere in the constitution. That's because the High Court invented it out of nowhere in the late 80's. It was an interesting case - the government of the day tried to pass a law restricting spending on political advertisements, the TV companies sued, and a one-judge majority in the High Court decided that we had a "freedom of political speech" implied in the constitution. In other words, "It's not there, but it should be so we'll pretend it is." The logic they used was tenuous to say the least.
Being a High Court decision, and a narrow majority, it could be overruled any time.
So there's no wonder we have more phone-taps than the USA. They have constitutional protection against unreasonable search, all we have is a Common Law doctrine of evidence that will mostly (but not always) suppress evidence that was illegally obtained.
Charles Miller
(Who isn't a lawyer, but did pass Constitutional Law before he dropped out of University to become a programmer)
The more I learn about the Internet, the more amazed I am that it works at all.
Australia Taps More Phones -LEGALLY- Than Entire U.S.
Since even those in chage say that the number underreported ia on an order or mangitude higher than those reported. These numbers also don't take into account US customs whose records were destroyed in the 9/11 attacks. They are still trying to re-create those records from ancilarry data.
As an American, I've always thought of Aussies as being likewise independent, free-thinking and friendly people (Mad Max notwithstanding).
You know, like, "No worries, mate!"
Now I'm feeling bad because I was worried about the evil Ashcroft and Carnivore while my buddies in Oz are enduring much worse!
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I know a lot of you out there think that your home countries are a lot safer, more interesting, etc.... and I agree. But you forget one thing about it. America is a real soup of people, and NOTHING COMES EASY IN AMERICA.
That is the nature of the soup that is the good 'ol USA. Most of the people that are from Finland and Norway say that there are no tensions and no problems at all with others.. well, move to Minnesota or the Upper Penninsula in the USA and you will notice that there is less violence there too... on the count that there really are less ethnic-religious-governmental-general-people tensions. Its the land of happy, slightly overweight hockey playing white guys. Lots of cheese.
I mean honestly, what the hell is there to argue about in Finland? Do you have a thousand cabbies that come from every country in the world and can't understand you, nor you understand them when they speak? Do you have hundreds of religious groups pining for their big piece of the political pie? Do you have anything that might get you annoyed like that? Unregistered illegal Mexican drivers that ran over kids in a schoolyard and then get no punishment because they are not US citizens, and caused all of this becasue they can't be bothered to read and understand English road signs?
WHY DOES AMERICA HAVE ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS? Because when poor, uneducated, huddled masses think of travelling to a land of prosperity they don't look around their straw hut and say, "Let's go to Iceland!"
Don't get me wrong. That's a good thing about being an American. But also you don't get this: when a Mexican punk drug dealer shoots a Texas cop on a sting in front of police, you also don't get an international incident where Vincente Fox shows his ass as a "show of power" to the American people over a P.O.S. drug dealer. The last time I checked, the Netherlands hasn't sent troops anywhere to save people. SO the Netherlands hasn't drawn any heat for it either. Believe it or not, there are several places in the world where people are excited to see me because I am a representative of America. Not everyone will try to kidnap me.
America-bash away. I don't blame anyone for liking a home country where everyone basically acts and looks the same as you... sounds great. Never had that. Probably pretty nice.
WE ARE JUST DIFFERENT, WITH DIFFERENT PROBLEMS. NOT BETTER OR WORSE THAN ANYONE, JUST WITH DIFFERENT PROBLEMS. But you can't really blame the USA for going crazy every day. You'd be nuts too if you had this many people that can't agree.
And another thing. When everyone says we don't need an army it just makes me laugh. Well, that is because we are doing the job for you. Keep in mind that if anyone invaded Norway, Iceland, The Netherlands, Australia, beautiful New Zealand, or anywhere else civilized... we might have the jets in the air faster than you might have yours. Why?
NOT BECAUSE AMERICA WANTS TO BE MR. BADASS ALL THE TIME. Its actually simpler than that.
That is what true friends do for friends when they need help. We'd kick butt again for France or Germany (or the Netherlands) in a second if they needed it. Of course, the UK doesn't even need to ask. You get punched silly for even looking at the UK in front of the USA.
Actually in Australia, to have a family link back to the transportees is seen as a sign of class!!!!
That would make them comparable to the FBI. Neither the CIA nor NSA is allowed to handle domestic spying. That's why everybody got their knickers in a knot when Nixon had the CIA tell the FBI to stop looking into Watergate because of "the Bay of Pigs" invasion.
I mean, as long as I can buy a 900 Mhz scanner and listen to everyone's CC #s, VMB #s + passcodes why bother?
Here's hoping you never used your cell or portable phones to say anything silly!
>:-)
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Wow! With so many police listening into so many conversations, the crime rate must be nearly zero. How can people do anything wrong if they can be listened to at will!
Except, um, if the people listening in aren't totally honest themselves. Who listening in on the prosecutors and cops? How long until blackmail starts?
Man in Black: Truly you have a dizzing intellect.
Vizini: Wait 'til I get going. Where was I?
Man in Black: Australia.
Vizini: Yes, Australia. And everybody knows Australia is entirely peopled by criminals... and criminals are used to people not trusting them as YOU are not trusted by me. Therefore I can clearly not chose the wine in front of you.
That about do it folks? Can't believe nobody posted this already. *shakes head*
Toddlers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy.
'twas 70 million plus, actually.
But it bought us Bush II ! I'm sure the House managers thought it other people's money well spent.
New Zealand has a higher crime rate than Australia.
That is because they don't have wallopies to take their agression out on.
BTW, *everybody* is probabably descended from at least one criminal if you go back far enough in your family tree.
Table-ized A.I.
This is impossible! Everyone knows that the United States is the world's most corrupt nation, and violates more individual liberties than the next five corrupt nations combined. The US is the home of Microsoft, the MPAA and the RIAA. Alan Cox boycotts the US, not Australia.
This story cannot be true.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Worth noting that during the War of 1812 many of those living in the USA were living as slaves.
I believe that, during the War of 1812, the UK was farther along in abolishing slavery than was the USA. FWIW.
Sorry to nitpick, but I think that, in 1812, the USA fell a bit short of "great power" status.
What do you mean... it protected the Franklin River, didn't it? :P
:)
Have you seen The Castle? It protected those guys too - it's the vibe of the thing - really!
It's not a bad old bird, really - and it allows changes as is appropriate, rather than being a document spawned in a civil war with no room to grow... It ain't perfect - but it ain't bad either.
(I'm having fun, but not trolling
---- *dog sitting next to a computer, with his beady eyes shifting left to right*
(how many AMericans speak 2 languages? do you? Betya its those Spanish Immagrants that do the most)
Si. Puedo hablar otros idiomas. En los EEUU es importante a hablar con los conductador de los taxiz (o taxis, se depende en particular a parte del Sudamerica y la accente).
Why yes, I do speak two languages.
By the way, I understand that you English is not the greatest, but keep it up... I can tell that you are getting better. I am not being sarcastic. I appreciate you trying to use your foreign language skills.
However... I would not move to Spain unless I had a good grasp of the language. Nor would I drive illegally, nor enter the country illegally, nor would I not pay taxes and then try to get free health benefits.
Just because I see that the people of another country are coming here and cannot understand the language doesn't mean I hate them, I am just pointing out that "it ain't easy brother."
for one thing because they keep doing all the dirty work that so obviously are way beneath what you could ask an nth-generation citizen to do.)
Personally, I don't have a lot of hate for bad examples, but I can really say this one out loud and on slashdot over THAT STATEMENT...
FUUUUUCK YOU.
You really can't sell me that shit.
First of all, I never met my grandfather because a mine cave-in. So if you would like to sell me the one about the dirty fucking jobs out there for the immigrants, then you are barking up the wrong tree. The only reason my people got out of the mines was because one generation had an errant gene that made them too tall.
At least the immigrants get to see the fucking sun during the Winter. SO FUUUUCK YOU. There are plenty of Americans that get their hands dirty, and bust ass for little money. AND PAY TAXES ON IT.
But let's not dwell on the immigrants, lets talk about the one group that has been here 150 years (juuuust right after the colonists), and still gets treated like shit.
Yes, I'm talking black people in America.
What about my black friends that have been here for generations and still can't get a decent fucking job? What about them? Yeah. You're right. Poor immigrants. Their problem is that they can't speak the language. NO! Their problem is that they don't pay taxes. Black people pay taxes and work right next to them. Talk about a fuck job.
You know what the difference is in America between a black man in a car with a license and an immigrant hispanic without one? THE FUCKING FLASHING LIGHTS BEHIND THE BLACK MAN'S CAR.
POOR IMMIGRANTS. Always so polite. Blend in so well. Never drunk in public, or stealing your shit. NEVER EVER PLAYING THEIR STEREO TOO LOUD AT THREE A.M. NEVER PARKING IN YOUR STREET WITH THE THREE THOUSAND CARS SUPER-EXPENSIVE CARS THAT BELONG TO THEIR ONE HOUSE.
I guess I resent the fact that Third-Worlders come over, and then act like the Third World all over again. Its about the fucking courtesy... not the festivals.
Talk to the wiretappers. Ask them how they're doing... how you can get a job with them.. tell them jokes... make it fun for them. (:
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
but your average Aussie is still racist
Shows how much you know about Australia. What bullshit. The words and actions of a vocal and (unfortunately) influential minority do not a country make. There were a lot of people who voted against John Howard in the last election, myself included. Are you saying that I, as well as all these other people, are racists? I don't think so.
But hey, while we're on stereotypes here, can I say that the average American is a fat, ignorant git who's more than willing to give up his "freedoms" in order to feel "safe" again? I don't believe that's true, but you'd be suprised what people would believe in the absence of the truth.
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When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer our friend.
I don't like the fact, and I know there are heaps of non-racist Australians... but a lot of people vote for Howard. and a lot of people voted for One Nation!
That I agree with. But it's more accurate to say that One Nation has been (rightfully) confined to the "lunatic fringe" section of politics and is not the great threat to the mainstream parties that it apparently once was. The main frustration I have with Australian politics at the moment is that there really is no worthy opposition to the current government and that, knowing how fucked-up the current government can and has been, is a pretty scary thing. What I'd like to see is something like in Sweden (where I am at the moment) - a social democracy. But that would require increased taxes and a combining of the two types of politics (which might require, *gasp*, agreeing on things) and given the inability of Australian politicians to even suggest either or both possibilites, I don't see it happening in the near future.
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When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer our friend.