Slashdot Mirror
When Do You Really Need a Lawyer?
"Clearly, once I've been served with legal papers, a lawyer is necessary. But I'm guessing that there are situations where having a lawyer before it gets to that point would be helpful. I'm interested in some general guidelines for when I should pick up the phone and call a lawyer. I'm especially interested in tales of 'I waited to long and got burned' as well as 'I got a lawyer so early it was smooth sailing'. Like most people, I make a decent living, but I cannot afford high legal bills for very long.
For those who are interested, the CEO in question decided to simply report the incident to the FBI. My guess is that the Feds logged the complaint for their statistics and then dropped the matter. However, the brush with someone with enough money and power to drain me financially has left me distinctly shaken..."
...it's a Clue. Also, your situation might be covered by a book or article at http://www.nolo.com, which is an excellent resource for self-help legal stuff.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
What if I say something wrong?
For all I know you could trace me down and sue me!
"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." -George H.W. Bush
Save all your correspondence however. In fact, you might want to post them online as well. As far as I know it's perfectly legal (at least, you see it all the time), and maybe this CEO will be humiliated enough to think twice before ignorantly accusing people of things.
I'd LOVE to know who this person is, by the way, so I can be sure not to ever do business with his or her company.
You can find a good resource here.
John
The drops of water don't know themselves to be a river; and yet the river flows.
At worst, he could find you accountable for the files that were on his computer and _only_ his computer. I would guess that major important documents/programs that your company requires would be backed up elsewhere, and all the other stuff would range from the pr0n on his computer.
IANAL, but if I remember the legal process correctly, if he's suing you for $3000 or less (I could hardly imagine why a computer virus on his computer and only his computer would result in more than that in damages), then it goes to small claims court, which is jury-less and less formal that a full blown class-action lawsuit type dealy you always see in the movies. So I'd imagine that lawyers aren't _that_ extraordinarily helpful in a small claims court.
Karma: Non-Heinous
Lawyers will usually not charge you for an initial consultation. If you are upfront with them, tell them your situation, they'll usually spend 10 or 20 minutes with you and decide if you might need their services or not. If they say you do, they'll most likely ask for a retainer of some sort. Depending on how serious the lawyer believes your situation to be, it could be between $1,000 and $5,000. On top of the retainer, you have to pay the fees they bill until you "close your account" with them.
Some smaller lawyers will just bill against the retainer, while larger firms will require payment in addition to the retainer, but will return the retainer in full at your request when you close an account with them.
Most lawyers charge between $150-$300 an hour unless it is a case where they believe you will win a settlement (in this case, it doesn't seem so; however, you might be able to get lawyer fees if you need to sue if the CEO sues).
IANAL, but I'm married to one and had to use some for my old business.
Just go look up a lawyer or get a referal (highly recommended) and see what they say. They'll know better than any of us on slashdot (unless they are lawyers).
TossableDigits.com: Temporary Phone Numb
Or you can go to Jiffy Lube to save $20 bucks a year and then the mechanic doesn't know you from a hole in the wall. Doesn't think you'll be back after he's done.
And who want's a total stranger looking up their hooches to find that itch.
I know I'm crass but it does get the point accross.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
... when you could just /. him instead?
No klez, in fact, no internet
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
Unless the CEO's lawyer is a true hothead, it will never get past the first consultation. The CEO will pay his lawyer's consultation fee and go away angry. Most lawsuits begin with a lawyer sending a letter to the putative defendant, usually a request for compensation and a request for any insurance information you have. Give the lawyer no information, but contact him, and calmly discuss your case with him You can hire a lawyer if you have the money but it is in your best interest to entertain the lawyer's contentions seriously and to state your case clearly: that he won't collect, and that there is a long road to go before he can prove you were the authorof Klez. Most lawyers won't push a case if they can't get a quick, big payoff right from the top. Another circumstance is how much you are worth. If you are a wealthy man and have holdings such as stocks, bonds and real estate, you could be in trouble regardless of your guilt because there is very little to stop the lawyer from getting even a nuisnace payoff. BTW, IANAL, but I have learned from business lawsuits, that discussions will save a signifigant portion of a lawyer's claim if you deal with him reasonably.
Dawn of the Dead
You need a lawyer to answer that question.
If you DO ever end up in court, after sending the polite note and getting a lawyer, point out that you have no money for him to take, and that if he does sue you, he'll look like a fool. If the CEO continues to press the suit, carry through on your end and go public.
There are tons of ways for ordinary people to do this. One is your local TV station. My TV station has something called "Channel 3 Reports" which is basically a cosumer line where people can complain if they feel cheated by a business. Channel 3 will send a reporter to the business and make them answer a few questions on camera. This can be REALLY embarrassing, espcially if there is any chance that the business did make a mistake. Many people would rather settle than have a hostile interview on camera.
Newspapers are also your friend. Alternative ones like the "News and Review" will often do interviews with ordinary people who have run afoul of some large business or government agency. Larger papers too might be interested to run your story.
I think enough bad press, and hints of more, will end just about any unfair suit from a CEO who has a company and business to worry about.
Be smart. Be polite. Be truthful. And be persistant. That I think will get you out of any jam that truly isn't your fault.
Peace.
Someone with both him in their Address book and the CEO in their address book got the Klez virus. The Klez virus looks in the currently infected victim's address book for an e-mail address to pretend to be from and sends a message to another address in that address book.
If you're kinda handy with Sendmail, and CEO stubbornly refuses to believe that SMTP From: headers can be faked, guess how surpised he'll be when he receives an email from gwbush@whitehouse.gov giving you a full pardon.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
I am a lawyer and I practised in high tech/business for years. I think people run to lawyers far too quickly. I wish they wouldn't panic and waste their own time and money. As soon as I became a lawyer, my father pestered me all the time with issues. I kept saying he should use his head. Figure out what using a lawyer will get you then think about what it will cost (in terms of time, money, frustration, publicity, anger, damage to relationships, etc.)
You need to take a deep breath and work out the pros and cons of using a lawyer. I think the best time to use one is where you are presented with a situation where:
(a) you are IN DANGER OF LOSING ESSENTIAL RIGHTS. Examples are signing contracts where you do not understand what people in your position normally can get (or lose);
(b) you are unfamiliar with the regulations and laws associated with doing certain things (like holding lotteries, running a business, being a landlord etc.); or
(c) you or your property are seriously injured and you NEED compensation to compensate for some significant loss
Using lawyers simply as a replacement for common sense is really dumb. Lawyers move SLOWLY and EXPENSIVELY. Why? Well, because (1) they have a lot of stupid work to do; (2) they are often sick of dealing with issues that should be resolved outside the legal system; (3) their profession is focused on looking at what they can get out of someone or how to hit back vs. constructively and quickly resolving disputes.
Often you will walk into a law office and have a consultation. Suddenly, the lawyer is putting together your case. What the lawyer is SUPPOSED to do is work with you on what you want to get out of this in the end, explain the costs, timelines (which are a lot longer than you think) and the typical results. Results means more than just getting some money. It means the effect of legal action on you and those around you.
Too often, the lawyer acts more like a plumber who plugs your story into his predefined precedents instead of being a professional who consults with you and educates you about all the factors you should know BEFORE proceeding.
If you are an american, you need a lawyer if you want to, for example, pick your nose.
In the civilized world, you only need a lawyer if you work in organized crime.
Special case:
If you are both american and criminal; you don't need a lawyer - Then you are a lawyer!
As a well-established corner of copyright law, you do not own the correspondence you receive from others. You do own the physical media, but you do not have a right to broadcast or republish the material without the author's permission. Unless the author has done something so illegal (e.g. sending a death threat or whatever) that you can be certain of prevailing, and you need the public exposure because you have no other course of action, you should never publish correspondence you receive from others without their permission. It may seem ridiculous, but it is completely illegal almost everywhere on Earth.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
...you've published the CEO's details here, and he's been, /.ed off the web.
:-) . . . you know you want to need a lawyer.
LARTed out of his office by a mob trying to win the new 3rd person Darwin Award,
or at least
go on who is it
Great, you've got a guy who's dumb and rich and a CEO. If he's a CEO he's probably got a decent sized ego. If he's got an ego and you drag his e-mails into the public spotlight, he's probably going to get pissed, especially if the context of the posting is to say "look at what an idiot this guy is". He'll sure for any of a number of reasons, from copyright infringement, to libel (that's the print one right?).
No, you disturbed a dragon. Leave the cave quietly and pray he doesn't wake up. He might never win in court but that doesn't mean you'll have to have six mortgages on your house before he's done with you.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Q: When do you need a lawyer?
A: When you're talking to a lawyer.
Which is to say, if you ever need to deal with someone else's attorney in any offical capacity, no matter how trivial, you're best served by having your own on-call as well.
IANAL...
It sounds like you just got somebody with a bee in their bonnet. (And, if you want another cliche,) My experience has been that such people's bark is worse than their bite.
So, if the CEO wants to sue you, first he has to find a lawyer willing to take on the case. In this case, that means that the lawyer would believe that A) there's a reasonable chance of winning in court and B) that if they did sue you, you have enough money to make it worth their while. Now, B is not as critical -- if the CEO in question is a real jerk, he may sue out of spite. But, A... If there isn't a reasonable chance that you'd win and a judge agrees, not only do you win, but the CEO and his attorney could be in trouble for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
The FBI, luckily is more than smart enough to understand forged headers and also knows more about computer viruses than this CEO evidently does. There may be some record in some computer somewhere, but it won't really mean anything.
The real questions are:
1) Is this CEO is the head of the place that *you* work?
and
2) Is he slandering you among other people?
If he is the CEO of your company and he decides to have you fired or something, then you may have a wrongful termination case. If he's going around telling other people about how you wrote this virus and sent it to him, then that's slander (assuming you didn't actually do it...), which is grounds under which you could sue him. In either case, consulting a lawyer may be a good idea.
Probably the best thing is to take the high road and ignore it.
...is often the best defense.
Here's what I would do: write a letter to the CEO in question. Don't rant or rave, but explain the nature of the Klez virus in non-technical terms. Attach a description from one of the major anti-virus manufacturers as proof of your assertions.
Then drop the bomb. WITHOUT WHINING (that is VERY important), and without OVERDRAMATIZING IT (also VERY important), warn him that his actions may constitute libel and/or slander, and that any further attempts to harm your reputation will be delt with through legal means.
Try something like this: "Finally, I have tried to be patient. I hope that this explanation has convinced you that I have no role whatsoever in your virus infestation. I know that not everyone is technical, and things like this can be difficult to understand. However, it's a small industry and I will not allow my reputation to be damaged through libellous and/or slanderous accusations. Cease and desist immediately or I will be forced to take legal action."
You might also think about filing a complaint with the FBI that the guy knowingly filed a false accusation.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
When a policeman gives you a dime.
Money for nothing, pix for free
NOT UNLESS YOU TELL THE LAWYER THE CONVERSATION IS WITHOUT Predjudice .
Otherwise anything you can and will be used against you.
However in a case of this type the lawyer is almost certain to be more resonable than his client. If you could provide the lawyer with a link to one of the Virus sites that describes this behavior of Klez the lawyer might even get the CEO to back off and appologise.
Incidentally what sort of CEO are we talking about? Like CEO of bogswater technology net revenue $300K per year can probably be blown off without as much worry as the CEO of an F500 company. The downside is that the CEO of bogswater Inc. is much more likely to be a complete and utter prick.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
It is easily demonstrable that the Klez virus was not written by you and did not come from you. You are safe on that front.
If you have received a letter specifically and clearly accusing you of the things you mentioned, then congratulations, because you have a valid and clear-cut libel case on your hands.
Send him a cheerful letter in return that explains the nature of the virus, and attach pages upon pages of URLs and other documentation to/from leading anti-virus software makers on the subject. Inform him that if he pursues, you'll pursue.
Do not even *think* of speaking to the other lawyer without representation. They are the masters of spin and they will take anything you say and turn it against you. If you speak to him/her and offer no information, then you're uncooperative. That's their job, to make you look like a schmuck. How much money do you think Mr. CEO will invest in his retribution? I'd say if his computer Klez'd an important and equally clueless customer or investor, he's got no choice but to grind you into meatballs.
If Mr. CEO doesn't come to his senses, or if you receive notice of some action, you will need a lawyer who can speak the lingo to tell Mr. CEO's firm why it is a well documented fact that mail headers do not indicate actual message senders, and what sort of filings your side intends to pursue if they do not lay off.
You might even get a clever lawyer who can snooker them into pursuing some cause of action that, once the true facts are presented, will only piss a judge off. And lawyers avoid angering a judge at all costs. Once they're in that position, it's like they're Superman and you've got the Kryptonite. Such a situation might garner you a tidy settlement, out of court and confidential, of course. Yeah I don't favor use of the legal system for personal gain, although I do favor a little "Legal System Aikito (sp?)" when some jackass won't listen to reason.
cat
Depending on the laws of your state he may be claiming you have committed a felony. I am being absolutely serious about this. Do not talk to the police at all with out a lawyer present. No matter what they say. they will lie to you, decive you and try and trick you. You make think the charges asinine .. but dont laugh at them .. and make certain you document everything. How do I know all of this ..? Because I was hit with a pair of computer related felonies and didnt take legal action quickly enough. Talk to a lawyer Immediately. Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they are not really after you. feel free to contact me directly.
Robert K. Brumbelow
rkbrumbelow@go-ssi.com
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
Just because someone's a CEO doesn't mean they have more money, power, lawyers (or brains, apparently) than you.
All it takes to become a CEO of an S-Corp or an LLC is to send your $50-300 plus paperwork, depending on your state.
I'm actually the CEO of a small web development boutique (read: 3 partners, a few freelancers, no employees) and have been threatened with a couple of lawsuits and the like in the past. We have very little capital (particularly in the current economic climate) to defend ourselves legally -- so we take the talking route until either the issue goes away (almost all the time) or things get verifiably ugly (lawyers/legal documents appear).
The trick is to talk politely but formally (read: certified mail, business-style) directly to the other individual involved, and keep records of every single piece of correspondence -- at this point you're trying to keep the odds of actually getting in a lawsuit to a minimum.
You explain your complete lack of culpability in the incident (including whatever documentation from Symantec/CERN/etc.), and state (FIRMLY) that you take the *threat* of a lawsuit very, very seriously and if necessary you will pursue that route in kind to reclaim lost time, money and any slander/libel damages that may be due to you.
More often than not (in my experience), when people threaten this type of action, they're looking for easy money in an out-of-court settlement -- or they're looking to scare you into submission (completing a project for free, etc.) Being firm and standing up to these kind of idiots gives them pause.
Obviously, taking this route, you need follow-through. The moment a lawyer or legal paperwork rears their respective ugly heads, all bets are off. Get thee a lawyer and be merciless.
Just keep in mind:
1. Just because they talk big doesn't mean they are
2. If they've got money to bring a frivolous lawsuit against you for something that they could verify easily with a google search -- they've got the money to pay out counterdamages. Most lawyers would be willing to take the case with very little retainer.
</IANAL>
In my experience there are way too many crooks in the legal profession. They will try to scare you into believing that you need expensive services, and then bill you for useless work.
One good resource I've found is the Martindale site. This will help you to find a lawyer in the appropriate field, and may even tell you how highly they are regarded by their peers, both in terms of competence and ethics.
I would caution against using the President's address, because we all know what a great sense of humor the Secret Service has, right? Instead, send him an email "from" himself. Something like "Hi me, If you will notice the 'from' address, this email is being sent from you to you. Since it is impossible to forge headers in your mind, this must have been written by you while you were sleepwalking. Basically I'm your subconcious telling you to drop the case."
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
I am a lawyer. If you've actually been served with a complaint and have no prior experience with this stuff, I'd advise you to contact a lawyer.
You have a fixed amount of time to file a formal 'Reply' to the complaint you were served with. If you fail to file a Reply within the time limit, a 'default judgment' can be filed against you, basically finding you liable for all the causes of action stated in the complaint. (While 'default judgments' can sometimes be set aside if you appear later and give a good excuse for not having filed a reply, you definitely don't want to have that happen.)
So, first thing, is definitely make sure that you file a Reply within the time limit. The only reason for not doing that would be if you can get the plaintiff to drop the case before then, but even then you're going to have to make sure that they file a dismissal of their case within the time period.
I'd get a lawyer, if I were you. But before doing that, I would give the CEO's lawyer a quick phone call. His or her name and number will be on the Complaint that you were served with. Explain that virus emails almost always have forged emails, and give him some reference to a site on the web or a book that documents that so he or she can look it up. The CEO's lawyer is likely to be more rational about this than the CEO, who may be emotionally upset by the virus attack and looking for someone to blame. If the only evidence thay have against you is the forged email address in the from: line -- and if you can convince the CEO's lawyer that those lines are always forged -- then the CEO's lawyer should recommend to the CEO that the case against you be dropped (probably "dismissed with prejudice" so that it can be refiled in the future if they discover more evidence against you).
In talking to the CEO's lawyer, I wouldn't be very forthcoming with information, if he or she starts asking you lots of questions. The main thing would be to just explain to them that virus emails typically have forged headers, and to point him to some authority to back that up. Also, don't lose your cool. Keep things on a calm and rational level. If the lawyer turns out to be an asshole, you may not make any progress with this step. But still avoid using your cool. You don't want people to get emotionally involved in this thing. Lawyers aren't supposed to get emotionally involved, but some will, so look out and don't let that happen. You don't want to make anybody on the other side mad; it could lead to them doing irrational things (prosecuting a crappy case) and causing you even more trouble.
If you do contact the CEO's lawyer and aren't successful in persuading him or her to get the case dismissed, then you should hire a lawyer to take over and file your Reply. You won't want to wait until the last minute for this; contact a lawyer at least two or three weeks before the Reply is due, if not sooner. Your lawyer could prepare and file your reply, and take over in trying to convince the other side to dismiss the case without going further, after you explain the virus-email-forging thing to him or her.
I should include the usual CYA stuff that lawyers have to do when they say stuff like this in a public forum: the above doesn't constitute legal advice. But it is what I would do if I'd been served with a complaint like that and I didn't know anything about maneuvering within the legal system.
Also, in the case of works with no real commercial value (most e-mail qualifies), you can be successfully sued, but it's very unlikely that you can be sued for monetary damages.
Under United States copyright law, even if the actual damages are less than $20 (lower limit for a jury trial), the plaintiff can pursue statutory damages, which can be as high as $150,000.
Will I retire or break 10K?
You want advice about what to do, and doing your own legal research is either too time-consuming, or this is a critical issue. IANAL, but I do my own legal research. I have found that lawyers, like the rest of us, are not perfect, so trying to understand the basic legal framework is not a bad idea.
In this case, if it is a Klez virus, the documentation is around about the forged from fields. I would think that it is probably a good idea to keep a diary at this point, and if you want a legal consultation, and want to pay for it, go ahead, but it is probably more important to get the documentation together and document every encounter you have with him.
Also bear in mind that the perspective you get from a lawyer will revolve around a "play-it-safe" mentality, and so the extent that is what you are looking for, legal consultations could be helpful.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
IANAL but it occurs to me that if the CEO thinks that an email From: is accurate enough for the basis of a lawsuit, write up a nice death threat using racial and sexist remarks, address it to yourself, and make the From: be the CEO's. Now either file a counter-suit with that as the basis for your case or at least confront the CEO with the evidence in hand. The look on his face should at least be priceless. :-) If the CEO can do it, why can't you?
I'd have to dissent from this view. Speaking to opposing counsel without representation can be very dangerous. Everything you say will be used against you, and admissions of a party are admissible even as hearsay testimony. While I agree entirely that early communications are a great idea -- and amicable resolution is the best result possible in these scenarios -- to do so without your own lawyer may be very risky.
Where a losing side pays a winner's expenses, it makes it difficult for poor folk to get competent counsel when they are plaintiffs. The contingency fee, with all its serious problems, is in fact, the only way many people of even moderate means can get justice. Without the contingency fee, only rich folks tend to be able to be plaintiffs.
Re: your sig...my favorite GW quote of recent times is:
s .htm)
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." --George W. Bush, discussing the decline of the French economy with British Prime Minister Tony Blair
(from Bushisms: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushism
- Stop talking to him.
- Give him your mailing address and demand that all further communications (especially those of the "I'm going to sue you" variety) be done in writing (no, e-mail doesn't count). Certified mail is preferable in this case.
- If he DOES mail you something, make sure you put it somewhere safe. It may come in handy later.
- While you really don't need a lawyer until you see a piece of paper that says "I'm going to sue you" bearing his signature, they are handy to have around to make sure you don't write something you shouldn't in a letter to him. If you must write him a letter, at the very least make sure to read, re-read, and re-re-read what you wrote before you mail it. Avoid things like personal attacks, admitting any wrong-doing and phrases that can be read as "I'm going to sue you."
Generally speaking, as soon as he says "I'm going to sue you," say nothing to him other than giving him your mailing address. Whether or not you need a lawyer depends on his follow-through and if he actually puts "I'm going to sue you" on paper.Beyond that, if you end up needing a lawyer, I hear that talking to the local bar association is handy. You're supposed to tell them how you need a lawyer and they can reccomend those that specialize in that department.
If you can afford it, find a competent attorney and sign a retainer aggreement. They come in several types. The most probable type you would want is one where you could pay for a specified amount of legal services up front, for those "Is this something that I should be worried about?" calls. You pay the lawyer up front and they answer the phone whenever you call, they don't need to be worried about getting paid because they already have been. Sometimes you can have as part of this aggreement that you will be refunded a portion of the unused ratainer.
Another type of retainer is the type where you pay a fee for the attorney to always be available for you, then you pay a reduced hourly fee for their services on top of the retainer.
I am sure there are other types of retainer and/or prepaid arrangements out there that could add piece of mind. Call your local bar association to find out, the larger bar associations usually pretty good educational and referral services.
Best solution:
Go talk to the fellow and clear up the misunderstanding. It'll save time, money and heartache. If your CEO is human, then I'm sure you can work it out without unpleasantness.
However, if the fellow happens to be one of those psychopathic CEOs which seem to be popping up everywhere these days, and whom through some sort of mental disorder and total lack of compassion decides he just wants to make you miserable, then it's okay to use a crow bar on his skull. (I certainly wouldn't tell).
If the crowbar solution is too un-nerving for you, (which I can understand), then it's best to get tactical; Let buddy know up front that he's made an error, show him the stats on how the virus works and that anybody with a software degree could prove it to a court. He'll understand. Subtly raise fears that when he is proven to be mistaken he'll look like a moron in front of everybody, the company will lose stock value, and he will probably lose his position due to a failure in confidence from shareholders and board members.
Psychopaths can be manipulated just like anybody else, it's just that their buttons are hidden in weird positions. Psychos can lie better than anybody, and they have no sense of shame, so if they are proven wrong, they don't feel stupid. This means that they can tell huge lies without sweating a bit because they fear nothing if it goes wrong. However, psychopaths DO have massive concerns about being walked away from. They are very, very posessive; to reject them when they have decided to control you is the worst torture you can inflict on a psycho. This is often the point where they will start using crowbars. And they don't get squeamish!
So then buddy, (if he really is a loonytoon), will smell the prospect of his company ditching him and he'll get very worried. Then all you do is offer him an out; tell him that it's very easy to be fooled by such a virus, that 'hackers' specifically design their viruses to get past the very greatest of minds, (who don't have time for all that nerdy software niggling which great minds like Buddy's don't have time to bother with), and that it is in fact, you who has been made a victim. He won't care about your welfare, of course, but if you can suggest ever so subtly that he can win points with you and everybody by hurling his anger at the real criminal, then you're in the clear.
That might be how I'd handle it, depending on the details, anyway.
-Fantastic Lad
If you ever you wonder whether you might need a lawyer, you probably do.
I'm serious. For most people, this is a seldom-to-never occurance. But when you're in doubt, just spend the $50 for a half-hour consultation and find out.
ObAnecdote: I was recently fired for a really dumb reason. Was it legal? I didn't know. $50 and half an hour later I'd gotten a legal opinion that yes, it was a really dumb reason, but no, there was no legal recourse. Heck, it was worth the $50 just to keep from sitting up at night wondering, "Should I have sued those bastards?"
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.