LinuxOrbit Looks At Libranet GNU/Linux 2.7

GonzoJohn writes "Linux Orbit has reviewed Libranet GNU/Linux 2.7: Other Linux distribution companies have tried to create commercial Linux products based on Debian GNU/Linux, but few have achieved long term success. Progeny Linux comes to mind as a commercial Linux distribution company whose Linux product met with good reviews, but couldn't remain in business. Libranet is a rare exception to this rule. Libranet GNU/Linux has been around quite a while and continues to build a devoted Linux user base on a commercial product based on Debian GNU/Linux. With their most recent release of Libranet GNU/Linux 2.7, Libranet continues to improve on an already solid Linux distribution."

Comments

slackware

[Anonymous Coward]

The only Linux distro I would run on a server is Slackware because it is the least performance hungry and most stable distro out there and I have used almost everything. Debian is great on workstation, but not servers because its just a bit more resource hungry then Slack, but it is easier to use for common tasks! Frankly all my servers run BSD except for database boxes for which nothing beats Solaris with Oracle running on top, but most firms and people cant afford Sun Servers so they should run BSD for things like Apache and MySQl. Now you can comment away.

Re:slackware

[weierophinney]

I can't comment on BSD, but I can comment on Slack vs. Debian.

I've used Mandrake, Slack, and Debian for my server. Mandrake almost maxed out my 2GB harddrive (/home was a separate 3GB harddrive, and was used for all data), Slack had it at approximately 53% disk usage, Debian currently has it at 37% usage. In addition, I noticed significantly better performance immediately under Debian, and much better stability (I had something like 5 kernel panics over the course of 6 months under Slack, none so far in 8 months under Debian). Security updates are also much easier to perform on Debian (a crontab entry to do updates from security.debian.org can do them unassisted in most cases). I liked Slack... but maintaining it was too non-trivial to justify my time.

Re:slackware

[schon]

I had something like 5 kernel panics over the course of 6 months under Slack, none so far in 8 months under Debian

What did you change?

I've been running Slackware for 5 years (on a couple of dozen servers, and on my home and work desktops and laptop), and have never _once_ had a kernel panic, in any version (from 3.0, up to and including Slack 8.1)

Performance was fine too - I don't know what you mean by "significantly better performance", perforance doing what?

crontab entry to do updates from security.debian.org can do them unassisted

You've never run an important box then, because no sysadmin worth his salt would ever trust something as critical as security updates to an automated process. You manually test each update on an offline machine to make sure nothing breaks (like maybe the config file changed?), then deploy it on the live machines. Trusting software install to a script is just asking for trouble.

Problem with commercial Debian

[Dionysus]

I think the problem with commercial Debian derived distributions is that there are no 'guaranteed' future income. Debian makes it so damn easy to upgrade.

When I used RedHat, I always bought a CD for each upgrade (from 5.0 to 5.1, to 5.2, to 6.0 etc). The reason: upgrading meant manually download individual packages and installing them in the right order. When I recently upgraded from Debian 2.2 to 3.0, all I had to do was change the sources.list, do apt-get update, and apt-get dist-ugprade. All dependencies and installation order was taken care of.

With RedHat (and I suspect other RPM based distributions), they were 'guaranteed' money from me, since I wanted to upgrade. With Debian based distribution, I no longer feel the need to buy a CD to keep current (even on dialup).

Re:Problem with commercial Debian

[PCM2]

When I used RedHat, I always bought a CD for each upgrade (from 5.0 to 5.1, to 5.2, to 6.0 etc). The reason: upgrading meant manually download individual packages and installing them in the right order.

But wouldn't you agree that this makes Debian a better distro for people who want to learn any kind of serious syadmin chops vs. something like Red Hat?

Speaking as somebody who upgraded a production Red Hat 4.2 box to glibc2 by hand, I still cringe every time I overhear somebody asking for help with their Linux problems, and the first thing out of the "guru's" mouth is, "Which version of Linux are you using?" Not kernel version, not software versions -- Linux version. And of course they mean which version of Red Hat is installed.

To me, Red Hat version numbers are almost completely meaningless -- unless you're not actually using your box.

These Names Suck

[Pave Low]

Libranet GNU/Linux? Can anyone seriously say this without getting tongue-tied or feeling stupid?

Seriously, open source software just does not name their products well. Who in God's Green Earth this is a good name for their product? It's not sexy or cool, and is too convoluted for such a simple product, which is Linux.

And the number of times this articles says GNU/Linux is more than enough to make me nauseous.

New Users, Huh?

[Mandi Walls]

(I'll try to leave my usual Debian-disparaging comments out of here. You can check my past comments for some of those)

But I will say the Libranet GNU/Linux 2.7 does NOT use X Windows for the graphic installation routine. Instead, Libranet uses easy to follow ncurses-based text menus for its install method is disturbing. After having walked 17 new-to-UNIX students through an ncurses-based ftp install of Red Hat, I will tell you that ncurses is not the way to go for new users.

Why? Because there is NO work-alike in the Windows world. What do I mean by that? Well, occasionally, you'll end up with a new-to-UNIX user who remembers DOS, or has used a terminal-based app before at work. What have they probably never seen before? ncurses. You are throwing them right into the fire, and giving them nothing that looks familiar to work with.

Talk about pain. And misunderstanding. And confusion about what the icons really represent and the cursor-flow mechanisms.

GUI install is where it's at. It's the best way to get a new-to-UNIX person onto a UNIX-alike system from install on, because you're building on something they are already familiar with - clicky clicky buttons and menus.

But you can ignore me. I just teach this stuff. :)

--mandi

GNU

[Glanz]

GNUness gracious! Gnuys! I'm GNUnna try it right GNUow.

WRONG!

[metalhed77]

The menu paradigm in the GUI world was taken from that of NCURSES. All you need to know is TAB, Arrow Keys, Spacebar, and Enter. The menus usually have some sort of message like 'Use the tab key to move between fields' and sometimes the same for the Enter and Spacebar keys.

Ncurses is fine, it takes literally one paragraph for someone to learn how to use it, and most pick it up intuitively. If you're going to run a distro like libranet and you can't figure out NCURSES then you'll suck a lot when it boots up too. There's a reason mandrake and lindows exist

How is it better than plain Debian?

[Ian Bicking]

I read the review, and it wasn't clear to me how this was significantly better than plain Debian. It seems to have a better installer -- and that's nice, but it's just not enough to make another distro worth it. They mentioned an admin tool, but again... that's just one tool (but if it was all-encompassing, that would be cool, but I didn't get that impression).

Sure, there's lots of apps -- but that's because it's Debian. Why is it really better?

Re:UHM PROGENY STILL IN BUSINESS

[Mandi Walls]

Progeny was founded by Ian Murdock, the original creator of Debian.

Not Linus Torvalds, the original creator of Linux.

See their about page

--mandi

Just a reminder... Xandros due out shortly

[mbourgon]

And another commercial distro, Xandros, based off of Corel Linux 3 (which is, in turn, based off Debian), is due out in the next 3 weeks.

http://www.xandros.com/anticipated.html

"Our manufacturer indicates the product should be available for shipping in the week of October 21."

Strange Pricing

[sterno]

So I went to look at libranet's product because I like debian but would like something with a better installer and hardware detection. I thought to myself that I could just download the ISO from linuxiso.org but that maybe I should help support them and pay for a real copy. So I decided to look at the prices.

They offer 4 different prices, one for past customers, one for new customers, one for students, and one for corporate users. There is not an immediately obvious difference between any of these releases and I can still download the ISO's from linuxiso.org. A student discount makes sense, fine, but then why does a corporation have to pay more per copy than a home user?

It seems like a much better model to offer two levels of product. The first is a retail model (possibly with an available student discount) with instructions, limited technical support, etc. Then you offer corporate contracts where you agree to provide a higher grade support (24 hour service, increased response time, etc) and you provide that at a higher rate. I see no evidence that as a corportate customer I would get anything better for my extra $40/copy, especially when I can just download an ISO.

My Libranet Experiences

[greenskyx]

I've been using Libranet since the 1.x days. I've found it to be a very good distrobution. I found the Libranet install to be very easy and I love apt-get. Libranet reminds me of what Mandrake used to be in it's earlier days. It is a lot like Debian but with a lot of extra value added in. My favorite feature is their kernel compiling setup. They have a very easy to use process that lets you recompile your kernel. After you recompile the kernel it adds the newly recompiled kernel to lilo and keeps the old kernel as a lilo option so you can switch back if you have any problems.

Re:My Libranet Experiences

[CentrX]

After you recompile the kernel it adds the newly recompiled kernel to lilo and keeps the old kernel as a lilo option so you can switch back if you have any problems.

You can do this in regular Debian too, with kernel-package.

Still Debian for me

[dh003i]

I'm still not sold on this new Debian-based distribution. I'm not an idiot newbie user, so i can handle Debian's text-based approach to installation, administration, and customization.

So why should I shell out $60 dollars for Libranet? All of these applications it has can be downloaded and installed in Debian. The one major exception appears to be Adminimenu, which you can only get (to my knowledge) by ordering the Libranet CD or downloading the ISO. If you really want the program that bad, just download the ISO and burn it on a CD. Then find it in the CD.

But there's a reason (a good one) why Debian is always "behind the times" and doesn't include the latest software. Stability and continuity. Are all of these latest applications really that essential to get? No, most of them aren't. So let other users and other distributions struggle with their bugs.

Bad business model & big whiners

[dh003i]

A few comments.

(1) Giving away a ISO for download is all good and fine for non-profit Linux distributions like Debian. It makes sense. It doesn't make sense, however, for a corporation trying to make money off of it to do that. The Linux community is not going to chastise the company because they don't offer ISO downloads. Think the path of least resistance. If you want to sell a product, you shouldn't also make it available for free.

(2) I stand by my earlier assertion that this isn't worth the extra $60 as opposed to downloading Debian. Almost all the additional software apps it has can be downloaded. And there's a reason why Debian doesn't always include the latest greatest software -- because it usually has problems. Debian prefers to let other distros walk through that minefield and benefit from the knowledge gained.

(3) For those of you talking about how much more "resource hungry" one distro is as opposed to another (i.e., many saying Debian more resource hungry than Slackware), do try to remember that they're all based around the same thing. You can remove anything you don't like, and if you remove enough stuff, Debian eventually looks like Slackware.

(4) For those of you whining about having to say all those extra syllables in GNU/Linux. Get over it. Its three extra letters to write, and if your giving a speech you don't have to say it every time. Distributions can simply be referred to by their distribution name (i.e., Debian) for short. But when something is written formally or said for the first time, it should be "Debian GNU/Linux" or "Redhat GNU/Linux" or whatever it is. Because that's what it is. Most of the tools and utilities and programs you use in a distribution are GNU stuff. Its only appropriate to say Debian GNU/Linux when speaking (at least upon any introduction; it need not be said more than once upon entering a new topic, after which simply Debian suffice's). It is not that hard to type in Debian GNU/Linux at the beginning of a paragraph.

Credit should be given where it is due. If your going to mention the kernel of an OS like Debian, you should also mention all the software around it. Hence, formally, Debian GNU/Linux.

I get sick of hearing how the FSF and Stallman are so greedy and unreasonable by expecting us to (at least formally) call a distribution like Debian "Debian GNU/Linux". Asking for due credit is not greedy or unreasonable. And, quite frankly, the reason they're asking isn't because of vanity, but because few new Linux users have any idea about Free Software and what it means to them.

Stallman was right when he said that he was being written out of history. GNU/Linux supporters don't want to bother telling new users about that wierd, long-haird, hippie guy who's always talking about this silly notion called Freedom. People afraid to talk about Freedom in the context of software because they think it makes them seem weak and foolish.

Linux Naming FAQ

[asv108]

Obivously the poster didn't read this. :)

Ever install windows 2000?

[petard]

The initial interface of the Windows 2000 installer bears a strong resemblance to ncurses. I think it's even still there with XP. The long and short of it is, if users want to install any OS (as opposed to just using it) they'll probably have to learn something new, GUI or no.

Uh, Progeny *is* still in business

[Overfiend]

[Sorry, repost. I had cookies turned off in this browser so my login didn't work. Please mod down the Anonymous Coward version as redundant, not this one; thanks.]

Progeny Linux comes to mind as a commercial Linux distribution company whose Linux product met with good reviews, but couldn't remain in business.

I guess I have Santa Claus to thank for the paychecks I've been getting every two weeks for the past 2 years plus, then.

Progeny did discontinue its Progeny Debian product, but we remain in business and continue to do interesting things, IMO.