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Questions Continue About The KDE League
OrangeSpyderMan writes "Here is a further piece by Dennis E. Powell ("DEP"), the other is an editorial, submitted simply by "staff". They make interesting reading, and add a lot of info to the story previously reported Of particular insterest is an apparent clarification of the tax status of the league, which, if anything, serves to complicate a little further the true role of the league, as the editorial goes on to explain. Basically the "staff" appear to wonder if it wouldn't have been more productive to give the $170,000 that the League appears to have collected (or be owed) directly to the KDE project."
Can be seen here.
It is sad that the KDE project has to be associated with such business practice. I feel that this can bring down the credibility for the project, which is not only bad for KDE, but for the entire open source movement.
People might misread this and think lump KDE with this corporation. Not good.
Fortunately, I don't think this will hit the mainstream media for a number of reasons - a) $170,000 is nothing compared to other companies and b) KDE/Gnome are largely unknown by the common Windows-using public.
Hopefully this will just be an ugly incident that gets resolved and forgotten.
It sounds like the KDE league needs to fess up and give back to the community.
This space for rent.
Every article like this I read makes me happier and happier that IANAL. Can you image having to deal with that kind of stuff every day? Eeeeew. It's worse than Prolog! >:-o
If I ever *do* become a lawyer for some reason, someone please put me out of my misery?
These sigs are more interesting tha
Just for the record, Andreas Pour has responded to DEP's article with an email that was posted over on Linuxtoday.com. The response can be found here. At least, that is the only place I have read it....
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
The thread where dep realized KDE-developers are nazis and anti-semites? It's right here:
7 05 43814143&w=2
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http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=kde-cafe&m=1017
Basically, few KDE-developers disagree with some of Israels policies regarding the Palestinians. But that does not make them in to nazis.
I espesially like this quote (by dep himself):
"it is always ironic to see german nationals, like members of AA who fall off the wagon from time to time, come out foursquare against genocide -- as if everyone *except* them has committed it -- unless the situation involves a new attempt to exterminate those who germany tried and failed to exterminate."
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=kde-cafe&m=1017
Gee dep, that sure is mature of you...
In short, deps problem with KDE-project is this: He's annoyed because few KDE-developers dared to disagree with Israel on a off-topic mailinglist. he's also annoyed when those same developers didn't want to get down on all fours and kiss USA's ass.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Did you actually read the article?
Oh, wait, this is Slashdot.
They don't actually have $170 000. That was their budget for last year. The story that is linked is about their reinstatement as a corporation, and then rambles all over the map talking about money and non-profit vs. not-for-profit, and some pondering on what exactly the KDE League has done for KDE e.V.
I'm a little bit confused about why they are using such old data in a current story.
www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
But then the League wouldn't have that cool metallic headquarters downtown headquarters from which they fight crime.
Oh, wait, that was the Justice League.
Why reply to a troll, ah what the hell:
The whole point of the articles is that KDE League folks != KDE (actual developer doing the work type) folks.
So it's not "half-dozen lazy Europeans who know C++" running the corp, it's some other (mostly undisclosed) US folks (residency normally a requirement for at least some directors?) running it and taking the money, while the "lazy Europeans" continue to produce the goods without the benefit of the cash.
This post needs to be modded up. The part about the "long-bearded steel worker" is just classic. I was laughing my butt off. It also brings up the important point that MAYBE you don't want some strung out bitter hippie producing and or maintaining your Enterprise class software. Especially when the only thing they want to talk about in times of a crisis is "Software Freedom" and why producing well supported and highly polished proprietary software that WORKS is somehow "limiting your freedom."
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Anti-Zionism != Anti-Semitism.
;) ) I personally believe ALL RELIGION in ALL FORMS sucks ass (simply - you dont want me to ramble too much do you?) - ALL religion shouldnt be supported by the state, as in grants to non-secular groups, tax breaks, property-tax-free properties, relations with their 'leaders' etc etc etc.
Beliving that a Jewish State should not exist is not the same as being prejudiced or against people solely on their religion.
This is slightly OT, but i would like to make this point. I am 100% against the idea that ANY religion should/could be involved in governing any nation - I am not simply an advocate of secular governance - I belive that MY OWN SECULAR GOVERNMENT (in this case Canada) should not have relations (other than to advocate the end of Religious-Rule) with any Non-Secular state; Isreal or any other. Religion, being a matter of mythos of a local geography is no way to govern ones-self. To legitimize fairy-tales preached by Jews, Christians, Hindus or Muslims is ultimately counter productive. If Non-Secular states, in this case Isreal, cannot discover Liberty and Enlightenment enough to assume responsibility for ones own community -- as opposed to letting the will of The One True Lord(TM) govern them -- then I dont believe they deserve a place in the discussions of the modern world.
So, to conclude - People who believe that the Isreali state sucks ass (simply) dont necessarily have a particular dislike for Jews - the two issues are different. If a bigot (nazi) also happens to hold negative views of Isreal's nonsecular nature it is a seperate issue..
Further (i can smell the OT coming
Somehow, I think this was not the type of publicity LinuxandMain wanted to stir up. Unfortunately for them, the damage is done. I really couldn't care if the KDE League has been less than admirable in their business practices. The unprofessional hack job that LinuxandMain has done on this story is the only thing I'm going to remember about it.
Flamebait? Sure, maybe. Maybe I'm just offering a clue to anyone over at LinuxandMain that the potential audience for a Linux website is slightly more critical and clever than the average tabloid reader. Edward Said was right. The media is self-serving and self-perpetuating, but that doesn't mean that smart people won't see through it.
1/ what did ximian do with the 15 millions $ ?
2/ gnome developper heard to dislike the color "black" (to use on an icon) - probably KKK member.
3/ usage of windowmaker linked with active trolling group - undercover anarcho-terrorrists?
4/ creator of enlightenment drop his project - probably to escape fbi.
5/ linux and main just bought by unknkown megacorp of redmond . soon to be renamed.
I completely agree. Isreal is treating Palestinians as the USA once treated Africans... worse even. How the champion of Liberty -- as embodied in their Constitution not the Plutocratic-Fascism that the USofA has become -- can support Isreal is VERY telling of how far they've gone from the ideas that they fought a revolution for...
Judging by the constant up and down moderation of that comment as either underrated or offtopic, perhaps some context is in order: that article, which alleges that many KDE project members are somehow antisemitic for not supporting Israel, is why Andreas Pour won't speak to Linux and Main an specifically Denis E Powell - he believes DEP has a clear agenda against the project simply because some of its members don't agree with his political views.
slow down a second. I wont be drawn into a relativist argument that Palestinians are not treated poorly because someone-else was treated worse.
Nor am I saying they are blameless - im saying that isreal's treatment of Palestinians is terrible.
there are thousands of misdeads every year the world over, from shooting protesters with Rubber Bullets and tear gas to slit throats to the War on Some Drugs, to economic exploitation by capitalists, to %your-favorite-social-injustice%.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=kde-cafe&m=1017
Basically, few KDE-developers disagree with some of Israels policies regarding the Palestinians. But that does not make them in to nazis.
It is absurd to see the asinine, provincial conflict that is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict affect the rest of the world at all, much less make its filthy way into discussions of free software, KDE, or what have you.
You are correct, taking the Palestinian side is no more or less anti-semetic than taking the Israeli side.
I will go out on a limb and make what is a balanced, arguably antisemetic statement (though in fact it is not, it is anti-pouring gasoline on the flame):
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> Why is that you care so little about Algerians or Black Sudanese?
These are parts of civil wars. Both have stopped. There is no more fighting.
The Israeli-Palistinian conflict, however, has been going on for more than fifty years. I care personally because my country, the US, is responsible for much of it. I care because my governement apparently does. My taxes are going to fund the continuing conflict.
Ok, I still disagree with the underpinings of the article, but I think dep has a few good points:
> When it was announced, there was a little gratuitous nastiness and hypocrisy thrown in: "Wednesday morning, before or during Mr. [GNOME founder Miguel] de Icaza's presentation, we will issue the press release announcing the formation of the League,"
I agree. I think the League was founded as somewhat of a "me-too" sorta thing. KDE would have continued to thrive even if the League was not announced.
> Confidentiality is a little awkward in dealing with free software projects, because it's not something to which the community is accustomed. To which the KDE League responds that it isn't a free software project. Well, then, what is it?
Well, dep is associating the League with the KDE project, and he himself knows the difference between the two. But, nonetheless, it is a valid point. In dre's response, he said that the league was "not-for-profit", and not "non-profit".
Can someone with experience in US law explain the difference, if any between the two? I'm still confused about this fact.
> Though it was announced with high ideals, there's little evidence of its ever having done anything much except collect money,
Yeah, I thought about the League a few times before this series of articles, and I never knew if they had done anything or not.
> to it somehow benefits KDE -- though again, if you ask how, exactly, it is doing this, you will not get a response.... What they give back, though, disappears into the great, gaping, one-way maw of the KDE League, never to be heard from again.
Yeah, again, I'm not sure how the League benefits KDE, or where the money goes.
> We would love to be proved wrong about this. That would require a degree of disclosure that the KDE League has thusfar refused to provide.
Yeah, if the League is legally entitled to disclose it's dealings, it would solve the whole issue.
Even if the league is "not-for-profit", and this means they have more confidentality protections, what's the use of them? This is a corporation founded to advance a free software project. This isn't Microsoft or Enron (heh).
> Neither the Sudanese or the Algerian conflicts have stopped.
Yeah, I shouldn't have said that there is no fighting, but
> They are as bloody as ever.
Not true. Compare Algeria today with Algeria in 1994. Compare Sudan today with a year ago.
> Now tell me why you care so little about Sudan? Because they are black or because they don't have oil-rich sponsors? (BTW there IS oil in South Sudan but is being stolen by the northerners)
1. Not everybody in Sudan is black.
2. I don't care because my money isn't going to the government to kill of the southern rebels, and my money isn't going to the rebels to kill off pro-governemnt supporters in the south. I don't like the U.S. governemtn medelling in other countries's affairs, unless it is through U.N. peace efforts. Basically, I want to fund peace, not war.
It looks like the KDE League is a mess, and if I were a member. I would have serious questions of mismanagment.
Also, a not-for-profit 501(c)3 has to with its filing with the IRS show public support. Hence the honest question of what has it done?
It may not be the most up to date resource, but:
Go to http://www.guidestar.org to get a look at several organizations 990 filings including Red Cross Chapters, USENIX, and the IETF. Its really eye opening.
Below is the budget proposal listed in the first article.
:)
BUDGET PROPOSAL
------ --------
BUDGET FISCAL YEAR 2001
Revenues: $162,000
Quarterly dues:
Executive: 100,000 (10)
Associate: 8,000 (4)
Initiation fees:
Executive: 50,000 (10)
Associate: 4,000 (4)
Expenses: $105,000
Accounting/Tax: 1,000
Legal 5,000
Press releases: 12,000
PR Firm: 40,000
Management Firm: 24,000
Promotional: 16,000
Misc Expenses: 4,000
Reserves: $ 57,000
Notice anything funny?
Expenses = 105k
1+5+12+40+24+16+4 = 102k?!?!
I think these guys need to increase their accounting budget.
As has been pointed out in bits and pieces in other posts, the KDE League is essentially an independent entity - COMPLETELY - from the actual KDE software projects. It is not analogous to the Gnome Foundation, which, as I understand it, is actually a "steering committee" that determines how development on the Gnome software projects will be done (My interpretation - replies with corrections are welcome). In short, the KDE League, while having been 'resurrected' as a concept by the formation of the Gnome Foundation (The idea for the KDE League had been floating around for some time previously, but nobody at the time had been interested), is more analogous to a "Fan Club" than a "Steering Committee".
So, in short, the reason the KDE League has been sitting around unnoticed for so long is that it is largely irrelevant to actual KDE development. It DOES leave me wondering what they've been doing while they're supposed to be "promoting KDE", but irrelevant nonetheless...
On the other hand...(Note:The following is humor and not meant to be taken seriously)
I noticed that just about the same time as these stories started coming out, the anonymous CVS server for KDE's projects that Sourceforge is supposed to be hosting disappeared from the 'net. Could this be a secret conspiracy by Miguel de Icaza, Dennis E. Powell, Elvis, Sourceforge.net, and radical militant Shinto priests to cripple KDE development???
(More seriously, though - I reported the downed CVS server to sourceforge, and got a form-reply indicating that it was acknowledged, but the system is still innaccessible. Anyone know what's actually going on with it? I'm going into bleeding-edge-KDE-code withdrawals here...)
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To make things clearer, some nonprofit organizations are tax exempt (most Churches, most charitable organizations, some schools, etc.). Other nonprofit orgnizations are not usually tax exempt (political action committees, co-ops, neighborhood associations, etc.).
Being a nonprofit (for the most part) simply means that profits are not payed out to shareholders. This does not mean that the corporation cannot make a profit. Nor does this mean that the corporation is tax exempt. Tax exempt status usually means not only that the corporation doesn't have to pay taxes on its income, but that donations to the corporation are tax deductable. Because of the donation item, tax exempt organizations are generally held to a higher state of transparency than other nonprofits.
If the KDE League is not a tax exempt corporation (and not publically held), I do not believe that there is any law that states they must publically detail any financial statements. I could be wrong on that.
You can check out the Delaware Revised Code if you like. As the KDE League is incorporated in Delaware, this is the law that governs their incorporation.
'DEP' obviously has his own agenda which doesn't seem to have much to do with open source - he seem's to have got it in for all the KDE developers because some of them have used their 1st ammendment rights and expoused personal opinions that disagree with his
Well, based on that information, it seems that the KDE league must reveal it's financial statements to the public.
BUT, I wonder what the laws in Deleware (or wherever the league is based) says.
This is a key distinction because AFAIK in terms of federal laws (and most states because the states tend to follow the feds on this) it is only those nonprofit organizations that are tax exempt corporations that must disclose certain financial statements such as their corporate income tax return.
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