Slashdot Mirror
EBay Letting Fraud Slide?
joebagodonuts writes "MSNBC has an article charging that EBay's tough talk on fraud is just that. Talk." To a certain extent, I can understand the problem of having hundreds of thousands of auctions, and not being able to adequately police them - but ignoring fraud, when you have a policy stating otherwise is a Bad Thing.
This is hardly a surprise, one would think it obvious that the resources it would cost Ebay as a company to have to keep track of, let alone take action upon, the constant fraud cases would be immense. As long as a high enough percentage of trades are legitimate and involve satisfied customers, no legal organization is going to bother holding Ebay responsible.
I would have thought that reporting fraudulent users and such would be more the responsibility of the end users anyways, since its not much different than having people make purchases from someone at a flea market or something like that. You dont hold the owner of the building responsible if the "antique" you bought turned out to be a cheap knockoff.
Or do you? I'm not entirely sure of all american small courts laws.
Ice Cream has no bones.
I kinda thought ebay's whole attitude was Use An Escrow Agent If You Don't Want To Get Ripped Off. Now, if the escrow people are defrauding you, then that's a different story.
I have a bunch of stuff I'd like to sell, like a guitar and a mountain bike and a computer, but I'm not going to bother putting it on ebay because my rating is a big fat zero, and I doubt anyone will want to buy from an unknown quantity such as myself.
Ebay has a profit motive to have as many auctions as possible. They also make more money when the price gets higher. They don't make money when they have to investigate fraud claims, and kick power sellers off the system.
Let's put it another way: Let's say you're a power seller, and you sell a $1000 item. You give ebay their cut ($150 I think) and pocket $850. Ebay is happy, you're happy, the only one unhappy is the "little guy."
Where is ebay's motivation to change the system? Libertarians and free market economic darwinists, start flaming now.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I lose about $1000.00 per month on ebay due to copied software. I produce Video tutorials on CD, nerdmaker.com, and have to compete against $5.00 per CD copied software. After working with ebay for over 16 months, no changes have occured. Why would ebay want to change? They are, by a very wide margin, the number 1 auction site. Ebay makes money on a transaction weather its legal or not. The only motivation for change would be competition, and I don't see that happening soon.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You should only buy things that cost as much as you are willing to loose. You rarely hear of companies engaging in massive fraud, it is usually from ebay, some similar auction site, and most often individuals. Stick to solid companies like amazon or airlines or dell. Or companies you trust. People are going to scam you and places like ebay provide the most potential victims. 5 or so years ago, the place was usenet. Just as much fraud went on there(and maybe still is, I haven't been there in a while.)
To a certain extent, I can understand the problem of having hundreds of thousands of auctions...
This is a reasonable statement, and quite easy to agree with. (and yes, I know that Hemos went on to negate this phrase)
Don't.
It is unquestionably a massive and difficult undertaking to deal with fraud when you're operating on an eBay-like scale. It is also a primary purpose of their existence. eBay MUST deal with fraud at whatever cost (create a whole infrastructure for it if necessary--remember that only a few short years ago there existed no online auctions at all!), or they're simply not doing their job.
Not intended as a rant or finger-pointing here. I just don't want to see them get away with sliding if they're trying to.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Let's put this into perspective... There are thousands of power sellers yet only a few are mentioned in the article where the evidence strongly suggests...not conclusively finds fraud occurring. EBay is no different than the For Sale section in the newspaper. If I get ripped off by some guy selling his car in the newspaper, who am I gonna sue? The guy or the Daily News?
The only liability I see is the whole Power Seller rating system. This kind of implies that EBay deems this person a good seller and thus is promoting the seller above others.
Why isn't this looked upon the same way as an ISP and someone trafficking illegal material over the Internet?
explain to me what you were thinking when you didn't do this w/escrow? I will not pay for anything over $100 w/o escrow. It's worth the charges.
I purchased some Nakamichi cassette decks. Both were over $100 IIRC (the BX-300 especially). They went smoothly and I got the decks just fine.
What happened after I received them is another story...
What ebay needs to do is set up some kind of interface with UPS, FedEx, and the USPS' tracking systems and then require that all auctions have a tracking number associated with them. Of course then you have snafus with "virtual" items such as Everquest accounts...
Username taken, please choose another one.
sPh
Sure they do. If they can do a search to spam an unsuccessful bidder with other auctions the bidder "might" be interested in, they can certainly do automated searches for key words, patterns of feedback, etc. Of course, this is after-the-fact stuff.
What they really need to do is change their TOS to state that a seller is just as contractually and legally obligated to sell an item as a bidder is to buy it. And then back it up with some action. Then they need to establish partnerships with the various Atttornies General offices in the US (and their counterparts in other countries) instead of this adversarial, screaming-and-dragging-their-feet-thing they have going on right now.
There have been two major legal cases involving fraud on ebay: the art scam a few years ago, and the recently prosecuted computer scam. It shouldn't take a third case to make eBay change their ways, but it probably will.
Ebay can and should cooperate and contact law enforcement agencies. Fraud is illegal. Really, it is.
Just take the stamps, for example. The criminal penalties of messing with the US Post Office are insane! Don't suspend people, just drop a note to the feds. Yes, the feds... E-Bay is interstate commerce, so it's easy. Then, simply have ebay indicate whether a seller legitimately falls under US Federal Jurisdiction.
This is exactly what most internet commerce sites are unwilling to do. They have the impression that they have to do all the policing themselves. A large portion of the US government is devoted to consumer protection. As screwed up as I often feel the US government is, I shudder to think of big business completely running the show.
More importantly, did you contact the 200 other people and ask them to send copies of their letters of complaint to one postmaster and one US district attorney? 200 * 500 = 100,000, which is way way into grand theft and RICO territory IMHO (non-lawyer's opinion).
No? You didn't? Why not?
sPh
I don't spend any amount more than I am willing to loose. I don't make any purchases over $50.
I also cannot understand why on earth someone would go on eBay and spend 100's of dollars. Wake up! You are sending your money to *some guy* in God knows where, to purchase an item unseen.
If you are so desparate to get a deal on a higher priced used item, try your local paper, swap meet, hack shop. I'm pretty sure you could pick whatever high priced item you desire without taking such a risk.
I have no sympathy for someone who plop's down $500 dollars to some unknown person, for an unseen product.. based only on eBay's "feedback".
Take my money PLEASE!
I wonder why they don't have some kind of fund locking system.
Buyer does not receive item until funds are sent and verified.
Seller cannot cash funds until Buyer verifies reception.
If at any point either party refuses to check-off their part of the deal, the deal goes into Ebay managed arbitration during which both sides are billed until the dispute is resolved.
I think that would probably solve a lot of the problems.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Virtual items wouldn't really be a problem. All you need is a flag that says "this item will be shipped via $COURIER, and eBay will interface with the tracking system once shipment has been interfaced".
Buyers will immediately know which items either (a) are not being shipped [actually, they would know that anyway], and (b) which sellers don't want to use this system. If buyers want reliable tracking of their eBay shipments, they will opt out if (b) is the case.
Of course, some people will not realize what is going on, no matter how many informational messages they receive via the eBay interface, but that's life.
www.timcoleman.com is a total waste of your time. Never go there.
Every so often, we put up some auctions for networking equipment. Lately there has been a trend of people bidding on Cisco auctions (see this article) and never paying.
One Ebay user bid a Cisco 3640 router I was selling up to $2550. This same user created his account two days prior, and was the high or winning bidder on over 80 auctions. Here's this user's Ebay winning bid history. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but this A-hole ruined over $64k of auctions. Sure, you can relist and file fraud reports, but what's to prevent someone else from doing this again and again? There's no accountability.
If they would require some type of user verification to buy and sell, wouldn't you think twice about fraud? Furthermore, why can't Ebay red-flag suspicious bidding patterns? I think everyone agrees that a new user probably will not bid on over 80 auctions worth over $64k in a couple of days.
Just my 2.47 yen.
Involving the state attorney general is an excellent idea, although I suppose that would fall into the "contact local and federal authorities" bin. I used this route several years ago to get my money back from a guy in Texas that took me for $600. I ended up getting ALL of the money back, and he ended up getting really uncomfortable scrutiny.
Now, if you pay via PayPal, that can be another issue althogether. If a seller states that he/she *only* accepts PayPal, and nothing else, there's no guarantee that the shipping address is correct. I think I would avoid such sellers.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
"It is fairly dumb to buy anything tech oriented at eBay."
I would have to agree, bidding on current consumer electronics through eBay is pure folly. I often see bidding for items go higher than the everyday prices ay Best Buy, Amazon, or buy.com. I recently bid on a USB ethernet adapter and watched people run the bidding up to 15 dollars above what the product costs in retail stores, and don't forget, there are shipping costs added to most eBay items.
After the auction, I emailed the winning bidder and asked him why he paid $22 (with shipping charges) more for a product than it retails for. His response, loaded with expletives, stated that he didn't care, because he WON the auction, and I was just upset because I "lost." Yeah, I lost...
The next day, I ordered the same Ethernet adapter new from buy.com for $24. And it turned out they were offering free shipping on the product.
On the other hand, I have had good luck on eBay finding and obtaining specialty and collector items. All-in-all, I have about a 90% satisfaction rate with the products I've acquired on eBay.
I think some of the deadbeat bidder and outrageous amounts people bid on are due primarily to the younger crowd. One of my co-workers who is a very young woman (just out of her teens) said that she and her friends like to play a game called "eBay Chicken." They pick an item at random and bid on it, trying to run the bid up as high as they dare and then hope someone outbids them. She was lamenting the fact that she ran the bid up on some toy truck doing this, and then she won the auction. Her boyfriend made her pay for it because she was bidding with his account.
I called her a scumbag to her face and told her she got what she deserved. BTW, She no longer speaks to me... I asked some teenagers I know about this and the affirmed that they know several kids in their high school who do the same thing, oftentimes for hours on end.
I have had 182+ auctions on eBay, most of them purchases, and I have not had a single instance of fraud. Am I just lucky? Statistics say no.
I think what we are seeing is "small town" syndrome, that is, out of towners being taken in by obvious scams that any "big city" person would smell a mile away. I can pull up eBay right now and find a dozen suspicious auctions.
If it's too good to be true, then, yes, it is too good to be true. If it's a hardship case, then it will be your hardship. If you think you are smarter than the seller and ripping him off, then you are the one who will get ripped off.
In no way do I blame eBay for fraud. As a buyer I know that if I do not like the results of my purchase, then I leave negative feedback and move on.
If an auction is for a high cost item, then always insist on escrow. If the seller refuses, then refuse to do business. It's your responsibility as a buyer to protect your own ass.
jfs
The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
All this tells me that you must become a Power Seller to continue to rip off peolple without getting in trouble. Since most people do their payments (under $60) with paypal(ebay owned), there is a good chance they will never see their money back again.
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
Ebay and Paypal have merged so they now have an escrow service.
Also. Make sure if you are buying or selling an item you would consider expensive that you make sure the delivery is insured and guaranteed by signature.
You will have a much easier time claiming that a package was or was not delivered and the escrow service can work in your favor much more easily.
Also be aware that ebay/paypal's security department is probably going to be more concerned about a high dollar money laundering scheme than a low dollar shill scheme. Do your part by paying attention to who the other bidders are in your auction and make sure your own bids don't get out of hand. (Sure. That might not help but then again it might.)
Coding Blog
But isnt every Ebay'er eventually doing it?
Fraud is part of Ebay's culture, just some people take it to extremes more than others.
Anyone who uses ebay for more than 3 months knows about sniping, then they sign up to auctionstealer or other sniping site to join the fun. Then they snipe on the newbies and give them a start on the bitterness ladder. Okay it's not Fraud but it starts people thinking of ways to 'beat the system'. Anger leads to hate, etc...
Others start selling becuase their co-workers are selling. Before you know it, they are shill-biding on each others auctions once they see someone biding passionately and wildly. Its common practice.
Then there are other sellers that take poetic license and describe goods using vague but attractive terminology, 'virtually new', or 'must be seen' to be believed. They know that some gullible people are afraid to leave negative feedback, because a evil seller will retort with the same. (Oh, the shame of having a minus on your record!)
Most people who use Ebay for long enough, learn the tricks of the trade. It polices itself, which implies Fraud must be committed before it can be reported.
You can only prevent fraud by controlling auctions tightly, then the whole 'neighbourhood policing' aspect of the software goes away, which is worth more to Ebay in goodwill than losing a few customers over fraud.
Why should Ebay do anything? They state very clearly that they only list the auctions, and that guarnateeing the security of your purchase is up to YOU. Caveat emptor.
They do what they can, but they are not the fraud police.
I bid on stuff I want on Ebay. No big deal. I pay ... or you could B l o w M e.
universally with a US Postal Money order. If the fool will not take one, the fool gets none of my money. You have the Federal government behind you if they screw you. Wire Fraud statutes apply.
I have never had trouble from sellers, I tend to know what I am bidding on and what the relative value is. If you are a fool, you and your money will soon be parted. Caveat Emptor.
The chargeback will get Paypalls attention.
I then filed a fraud complaint on Ebay, requested the guys contact information and left daily phone mesages threating to pursue criminal charges (which I was serious about)....
in the end I got every damn cent back, so (in my experience at least) you can get fraudlant transactions corrected if you are patient and persistent.
Thank-you! I don't know why your comment wasn't modded up -- but I suppose it's still the minority view here for some twisted reason.
The fact is, eBay shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the users, any more than the local grocery store should be held liable if people post fraudulent sales on their cork boards near the entrances.
If eBay isn't even bothering to cancel/disable accounts after multiple frauds are reported, well - that's irresponsible on their part. But honestly, I don't think that's the crux of the issue. I *often* see accounts that are suspended, when I look back through user info on bidders of my old auctions who had negative feedback.
More than anything, this is a case of "kill the messenger" - because people get angry when they're ripped off, and look for someone to point the finger at. It's easier to pick on eBay (who has lots of $'s) than it is to hunt down and prosecute the person who actually scammed you.
I auctioned off a web server on eBay, fetching a high bid of about $1,100. The high bidder promptly contacted me and submitted payment via eBay Payments (aka BillPoint).
The buyer also asked me to ship the server via overnight Saturday-delivery FedEx, using his account number. This is a huge "red flag" for fraud -- only the account holder can get proof of delivery, and the account holder can ask to redirect the delivery location. When somebody says that rush shipping costs are not important, shippers should worry that the buyer's primary goal is to get the product in hand before they are "discovered" (e.g. fraudulent credit card payment).
Since I was suspicious, I checked the online payment information carefully, and was surprised to find that my payment record reflected the occurrence of a "bypassing event" on the same day payment instructions were submitted. That sounds pretty bad -- like maybe it's a dispute or other problem that will cause the payment to be reversed (my bank confirmed that a transfer was initiated but had not yet been completed, whatever that meant).
So I called eBay, and got run around in circles before being allowed to leave a phone message (I left several messages, none of which were ever returned). And I sent email to the official eBay Payments (BillPoint) support addresses, and got autoreplies promising a response within 24 to 48 hours. After trying several strategies, I called the buyer, disclosed my concerns, and advised him that I could not ship the server until eBay Payments (BillPoint) confirmed that the payment was complete and that the "bypassing event" was not a reversal. He said he understood.
Over the course of the next two weeks, eBay responded to each email I sent, about 48 hours after I sent it, but although they quoted back my question to me, they would not answer or even discuss the issue of what is a "bypassing event." I suspect my responses were coming from a collection of boilerplate replies. Each time I received a reply, I wrote back, repeating the single question, "What is a bypassing event," and citing my transaction number and other data. Each time, they replied after 48 hours without answering the question.
Finally, after two weeks, I confirmed with my bank that the funds had been transferred and they could find no record of any attempt to cancel or reverse the transaction -- and so I shipped the server to the fellow via FedEx Express Saver (3-day delivery), using his FedEx number.
The next day (after the server was already in transit), eBay Payments finally wrote back answering my repeated question: they informed me that a "bypassing event" simply reflected that the buyer had forgotten his BillPoint password and had manually re-entered his credit card payment information.
I have closed my eBay Payments (BillPoint) account, and I will not accept payment through their payments scheme, ever again. Since eBay has acquired PayPal, I will also cease accepting PayPal as a payment method, since I assume the same inept customer service will apply there, too.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
Based on this comment, I would consider myself a 'small-town person' . I opened an ebay account last month because I saw an out of print automobile service manual that I needed. The seller had hundreds of good feedback (~7 bad feedback) and the price was right ... perhaps better than right.
But a couple of things tipped me off. Firstly the seller was selling HUNDREDS of these things for different models that were hard to find.
Secondly, I contacted the bad feedback people and they said that the manuals were bootleg scans from original manuals and put on PDF and stamped to CD.
But if I was just slightly less careful, I would have been conned out of ~$35. Only 7 bad feedback in perhaps 400 ratings is not very much.
I think that if there's even the slightest pattern in any bad feedback, then you should back out. There is precious little you REALLY know about the seller and you have to look at every little scrap of info you can get.
I've had phantom bidders try to get me to pay more than I bid for an item. The seller contacted me after the auction and said "Oh, I just happen to have another of these items, would you like to buy it at the winning price?"
I told him I knew he'd been phantom bidding, and he could go eat the eBay fees. If fewer eBay users were gullible idiots, phantom bidders wouldn't be such a problem--they'd end up losing money.
Having said that, there's clearly a problem in that eBay makes more money the higher the final bid--so it's in their financial interest not to act on charges of (successful) phantom bidding.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak