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Building The Navy Intranet
wiredog writes "The Washington Post Business section has an article about the ongoing upgrade/integration of the US Navy's computer systems. The $6.9 billion project is the largest Federal IT project ever attempted. The mission is to get rid of, or upgrade, all the old software still in use (including, I kid you not, WordStar), do the same for all the hardware (including, I kid you not, typewriters), and link it all together. There are 100,000 different applications that have to be evaluated, and then either upgraded or replaced. I remember using WordStar. 20 years ago."
If wordstar and typewriters are working, why spend $6b to replace them?
Actually, funnily enough, this is a big concept that at least the Australian Navy seems to use.
When I left in 1989, I was told the HMAS Hobart had a combined computing power on the whole ship, of a Macintosh Classic.
Then again, when I left they were still mostly relying on analog computers.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
I worked for them 5-6 years ago. THey had this one older than god crank app that barely ran on an 80-86, buch less a penium that you had to nurse along, because the messages it sent could be read by the navys standard telegraph sort of thing. THis way, even the guy in the 30 year old shack on theat island in the middle of the arctic circle talking to penguins could read the messages. I wonder if theyre also upgrading all the hardware too?
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
I don't have the exact numbers, but I think the space shuttle computer is somewhere on par with the Mac Classic. I'm no fan of the space shuttle, but it does get people to space and back.
-B
That would really be good. I hope some day we all will use plain text instead of bloated fancy-formatted text. vi is fast and reliable. Chances, are that raw text would probably be the only "format" still in use in 20-30 years. Often I get one line mails embedded withing tonnes of HTML crap - what a waste of resources - but then again, these guys are willing to spend billions...
The law of excluded middle : Either I'm foo or I'm foobar
Yes... they are using Win2k as the standard.
Dell, M$, and EDS are the partners.
I find the interesting bit that Win2K is the standard and the rollout is supposed to take upwards of 3 years. WinXp is not authorized at all yet Win2K is not supposed to be available after what? Spring 2003?
Interesting times ahead
Based on anonymous sources I know who are currently working at AMSA, this could be hell. AMSA is currently a test bed for microsoft development, and they are involved in "upgrading" their system, eventually replacing a 4 or 5 person department running their tracking software on PIC on Unix or something like that, with a windows based system with several hundred employees. Given the morale there (see the link for esplanation), it is not hard to get some gossip
Part of the problem is that with PIC, they can get real time information, not possible currently under MS. And some of the functionality does not translate well when you migrate out of a multidimensional software enviroment.
If I recall correctly, PIC was first devolped by/for the government to provide a multitasking environment with natural language queries on machines as small and slow as an IBM XT. It was and is from the start a combination OS/Database. Which MS is only now starting to explore.
I imagine that there any number of these systems out there in the navy enviroment, among others.
Typically this is a case where the MS solution is in fact an inferior technology.
BTW, PIC was part of the technology acquired by IBM when IBM purchased Informix.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Did you mean to have that double-entendre or did it happen by accident? :)
(For the curious.)
I can tell you that it's horrendous the way the navy treats IT. They are married to M$. Don't be fooled by any feelgood articles you might read, on the deckplate M$ is king. Granted, he's an old king since he's prolly only NT4! But when the navy looks for solutions, microsoft is the only place they look
Keep in mind that it has been my experience that things move extremely slow in the military. That's why when my shop did happen to have a printer, it was dot matrix (year = 2000). There was one laser printer for the entire division ( a collection of shops ~100 ppl)
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
A shame no slashdot readers are fit enough to join the navy
What the heck are you talking about! In fact, I would venture a guess a significant number of slashdot readers work in one way or another for the Navy - I am one.
Were I work we fear the NMCI contact mentioned in the article. Primarily because it shoves MS solutions down our throats and takes away our ability to choose the best approach to an application. In the project I work for we are in the process of replacing older Solaris/Sun based machines for Linux/Intel workstations. We recently selected Linux to run Matlab to process data instead of the Windows machines suggested by a contractor. We use use Perl extensively to prep, Q/A and archive data.
Finally we use Perl/Apache/Linux to operate several intranets and internets installations.
Unfortunately, the article paints a real false and negative picture of the use of technology in the Navy. It is sensationalism crap.
I considered joining the navy several months ago and I went on a tour of a nuclear trident sub out in GA. The systems aboard the ship were rediculously old, considering their purpose is to control enough nuclear payload to wipe out most of the life on this planet. The fire control room was probably 20x30ft filled w/ rows of equipment which had the combined processing power of, and I quote, "an atari 2600". I'm almost amazed that those things could calculate a firing solution in any reasonable amount of time...
Now that you've ordered through the GSA contract, you have to receive your goods. This takes a very long time. The terms for payment from the US Government is not what you would call favorable to the vendor. The stuff you've bought has to get sent to the GSA, then the GSA has to send it to you. Has anyone ever heard of efficiency in a government agency?
This is true.. When I was a contractor working at NASA Ames, I helped purchase some
pretty large computer equipment which took about six months of meetings and such
and really seemed pretty long and pointless.
But the really pointless part was that this gear was finally shipped to us, but
sat in the shipping building on the base for several months because
it was lost in there among all the other stuff that was bought a year ago.
Some of that stuff never makes it out of the building because the project
it was purchased for has been cancelled or the staff working on it are no longer
available, etc. There are no doubt dozens of these shipping wherehouses with
orphaned obsolete computer gear all over the country.
But, when you work for the government theres really no incentive
to rock the boat or streamline anything. It's like working for
the post office.
If they're willing to use Wordstar, they may as well just use vi.
I wrote my masters thesis with vi and nroff in 1987. It looked better than those written with Wordstar.
Yet Another Web Site
I only see a small piece of the Navy's IT structure, primarily the systems that deal with intelligence collection and dissemination. The current development system runs on Solaris 2.8, and they allow clients running Windows to connect, but the developers don't like it. Current military developers (I work with Joint, Navy and AF) seem to have a great love of using Java for the interface controls. This allows any properly-configured client on a network to access the server, and then the geeks can keep their servers MS-free. The military intell community knows very well how completely worthless Windows is for mission-critical functions. Unfortunately, the rest of the military sometimes forgets. Wasn't a cruiser knocked out by a BSOD last year?
The development and deployment cycle for Naval systems is on an entirely different time scale than the norm, even in the military. Navy systems get upgraded when a ship comes into port, if there is time and resources available at that portcall. Considering the current operations tempo (optempo for the buzzword-impressed), about 1 or 2 intell ships get upgraded per year. They won't tell me how many total ships there are, but I know it's more than a dozen. So, just the installations will take 10 years, if nothing goes wrong and there's no major war.
If there's a war, nobody gets upgrades if they're needed in the theater, or as immediate backup to the fleet in the theater. Makes time schedules rather flexible.
Illegitimi non carborundum
Ok, first I like linux and open source but there is a HUGE flaw in Open Source that Open Source Fanatics don't understand. I will be brief and to the point.
Open Source is Dangerous in Military Applications.
Yes Open Source allows you to have more stable and better applications BUT (In a GOD like booming voice with dramatic echo) if someone has access to the source code they can better engineer attacks against the software. Abiguity is a strategic advantage in, if they don't know how the software "works" they'll have a harder (note the use of HARDER, not impossible) time causing problems. There is a reason that email is not used frequently and you can see hundreds of reasons why even the best encryption is flawed (as in the encryption is only as secure as the people using it). I would seriously have a problem using ANY application in a mission critical position where the source code is available. Here is an example (abstracted and general for readability)
------Begin------
Goal: An email like program that is secure to transmit messages.
Using an open source program called WidgetComm you can send encrypted messages between locations.
Right now you have no clue how to hack it. You don't know what protocol, network hardware, CPU, or encyption is available.
But with the source code you now know that the program uses TCP/IP on ethernet hardware on Intel x86 processors using PGP.
Now you can start targeting the weaknesses inherit in the components with the source code to help you. Ahh the only use a 32 bit integer for this input, I could overflow that to get XYZ into the Intel EAX register and then by overflowing field 2 (also a 32bit) I can get ABC into the EBX register. When I hit submit it will Jump to ABC and execute XYZ. Muhaahhaa. Source code gives you the ability to better focus an attack, as ANY GOOD INTELLIGENCE is important to an attack.
Even if the Navy re-wrote the protocol with a custom there are still the vulnerabilities in PGP. And if they re-wrote that part there would still be processor exploits (anyone here ever heard of Micro-Code? I can create a virus that doesn't need an OS to do it's dirty work. I just need to send a few key voltage params to the processor to re-program the processor itself). Open Source is great for home users but when human lives are on the line, with the defense of the nation at stake I'd really rather not provide the enemy a GOD DAMN ROAD MAP illustrating how my mission critical application works! Does this not seem to make sense? Or have some of the fanatics gone back to sniffing glue? Hello to even suggest Open Source in military applications is bad, using store bought crap is just as bad. The military needs to code it's own on a proprietary processor for optimal security. If 90% of hackers are using x86 put all your systems on a different architecture. There is a reason we don't tell people where are subs are, why would we tell them where our software is most vulnerable. And if you hand me the "There arn't any vulnerabilities because of Open Source peer review" you need a swift kick in the head and re-read. When you use open source you give potential attackers a road map of HOW the application works making it easier to attack the software. This has nothing to do with how crash-proof it is. This has to do with a directed assault, penetration, and intentional compromises that extend far beyond what rookies like Kevin pulled. We are talking nuclear secrets, weapon blue prints, troop movements, logistical data, not some cheap credit card DB that hold whether you bought Pr0n last week. This is serious shit and certainly wouldn't want enemy nations holding the god damn blue prints to my software.
Ok I'm done... go to the happy place.. go to a stripped down easy to use linux system... happy... happy...
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
What I would hope to see is a case where the Navy says:
...
We do these things and we use these products/applications. This should cut the number from 100,000 to 1000. While not every government agency needs to act like a business, in 99.9999999999999999% of the cases the Navy (Marines, Air Force, etc.) could.
They intent would be to standardize on a set of products such that an application requester would not build their own or for that matter go off on their own to decide.
You need a database, choose DB1, DB2, DB3...
You need a procurement application: PA1, PA2 no others and these interface with each other.
You need a desktop, choose Vendor1Product1
You need an OS, OSA, OSL, OSM, etc. and it must be an xyz compliant version, this network support.
any step toward a consistent infrastructure that does NOT list parts. (I was talking with a guy from my State government who was ordering outdated computers because they are force to list the components. What $2000 got you in 2001, is different from today, but buracracy only lets them buy what was specified in the budget.)
We do not want to see is 100,000 applications rewritten in VB, or C++ or anything. 100,000 came from attrition. If they are going to have to convert get them prove you cannot use one from the list.
I doubt however this will happen. There are too many interests that do not benefit from a smooth, consistent approach. Too many contractors who cannot make money selling packages, and too many buracrates who benefit from a custom approach.
My cynical side says to look for it to be $12 billion, and 99,999 systems.
Funny, but given that the Navy is going to be running supercarrier navigation and weapons systems off Windows 2000, i.e. the evolved version of the platform that turned the USS Yorktown into a sitting duck... the only people who have reasons to cheer this decision are the world terrorist community.
What would they do with the power to shut down or redirect the firepower of a US nuclear fleet? Live and find out, but if I knew anyone in the USN at this point, I'd be telling them they don't need to re-enlist. If our country values their lives so cheaply as to regard MS products as adequate protection... what does a sailor who's been in for a few years owe her country in further service?
This project is going to get US service people killed sooner or later, not just waste our money.
Tech Public Policy stuff
I'd like to know why the Navy needed a contractor to do this. Seems to me the CNO could have come with a proclamation "Fix the Navy infrastructure!" to the military and civilians already there. No, it's easier to hire someone, fire us, and wash your hands. What's next? CNN Breaking News: "The CNO announces he's contracting out the entire Navy. 'What the hell' he says, EDS worked out so well..."
Greetings!!
... our base was to be one of the "pilot program" sites where it was to be implemented first. Everyone was so thrilled that they got to be the guinea pigs for such a large new plan.
.. that's just my rant. I am so glad I got out of that place before it went into the dumpster.
In 1999/2000 I worked at as a civilian contractor employed as network/desktop support at a Navy base. The company I worked for had been the contractor for a few years. The way things worked previously, each department at the base was responsible for its own support. Some used primarily government employees, some primarily contractors. In the network of over 2000 people, and around 8 departments, I was but one small fish for a department of around 300. We had 3 people from our company contracted, working for one government employed network manager.
We had that department working. We had that department happy (well, mostly).
When NMCI was coming, we saw the marketing of it. How it would solve everything, it would tie the entire Navy and Marine Corps into one seamless unified network. We didn't believe it. No one I spoke with in our department believed it. They would turn to us and ask "You guys are going to still support us, right?". We responded with "We have no idea". Because we honestly didn't. The worst part was
Well, the company we were employed by tried to get into the NMCI contract. The team they were on lost to the EDS team. (There were 4 final teams for the contract award.) So they tried to get into the EDS team for the site work.
Well, with the end of the year 2000 approaching, the NMCI contract was awarded, our specific contract was extended to the end of the calendar year by the dept manager to cover the "transition" period, but we had no clue if we would have jobs after then. So I jumped overboard and swam for it. I got a new job.
I have heard through various people I know who are still involved out there (around where I live, you can't throw a rock without hitting someone who is involved with the Navy bases, it is very important to our region's economy.) Apparently no one is happy. Slow response time on support (computer crashing? we will come out next week some time, need a program installed for a new project? see you next week some time) is probably the biggest complaint. I can understand being busy, but causing your users to wait over a week to get a functional computer? That's just bad management/planning.
Anyway
-Zzyzzx
I actually work at a Navy base that is scheduled to be transitioned to this new network. The initiative is called NMCI (Navy/Marine Corps Intranet). From everything I hear this project has been one big cluster f*** from day one. My base was scheduled to be transitioned over a year ago but delays have pushed it back so far that we're not even supposed to start for at least another year.
This whole thing is such a colossal waste of taxpayer money.
Sadly, it infinite loops, as of last week's build (my form was due friday...). It's also so advanced that it can't translate between two different forms, even though most of the information is the same.
Hello bootlegged copy of win95B. sick, sick, sick.
Weirdly enough, it creates a zip file, that when you unzip it, has a bunch of applescript files in addition to the info. Livin on the edge!
--mandi
Yep, I'm one of the (un)lucky recpients of EDS hardware. You'll see why I'm posting anonymously when you see what I have to say.
As I speak two guys are pulling fiber thru the ceiling next to my desk. We've been absolutely dreading it for well over a year. Most of the stories we hear from worker-level folks are nothing but horror. Unfortunately all we hear from the management is peace and contentment - because all they use is Word, Project and Excel. But the article obliquely mentions "test sites" - where I work - and how painful it will be. Well, those of us with grunt-level engineering jobs use a LOT more than just Office. For example my computer has about six (official) unapproved apps installed - things like Macromedia Freehand - useful for doing illustrations (ever try that with a Word Picture?) or Photoshop (ever try using MS Imaging for serious photo editing?), or even the full version of Acrobat (essential for sharing cross-platform compatible documents). Basic, simple apps, but essential to our job.
Let me give you a scary picture of the EDS NMCI machine - I have seen and used them. Windows 2000 professional, with ALL access controlled. There's a permanently-installed remote-control program - so the tech support folks can take over anytime to fix a problem. You cannot even open the case without generating a trouble call automatically. You cannot store data anywhere other than the Documents folder. If you try it anywhere else, including the desktop, it gets automatically deleted at night. You cannot even change the screen saver - it's an EDS advertisement. You cannot install software. No chance in h*** of using Mozilla (or any other unapproved app, especially network-based programs). You cannot connect to a POP server - although you can get outside email IF you have access to a web-based mail service like Hotmail. You can only use the approved apps, which locks us into IE, Office, and whatever "legacy" apps we manage to convince (with lots of paperwork and pain and fuss) the EDS folks to install FOR US. If I cannot change the screensaver, I'm not sure my MS Office preferences (like toolbar settings) will be saved. I'm pretty sure that "basics" like Visual Basic Help files won't be installed - although I regularly use VB heavily for scripting Excel.
The "benefit" of all this is that EDS will be replacing our machines on a biannual cycle. Supposedly. Wanna bet? And theoretically, I can walk to any machine, log in and be using my data and preferences on that machine. Wonderful - but I do all my work from one desk.
What's the result? I am forced to keep my old machine. But it's not connected to the network. So I'll have to "sneakernet" files between the NMCI machine and my "real" machine - so if I get a file by email, grab the ZIP disk or CD-R to move it over. And forget printing documents from a VB scripted Excel, unless I have cash to buy a separate printer too.
Even more frighteningly, much of the "unapproved" apps will be relegated to a kiosk - a standalone, un-desked computer, perhaps two per 60 folks, where theoretically we can go to do those unapproved processing tasks - like Photoshop and Freehand. Yeah, like I want to spend six hours standing at a kiosk - or waiting in line for my chance to use it.
Just remember, "Efficiency in Government." Folks, I hope this dies an early and UGLY death.
I consider this ironic, because if I were purchasing equipment for the Navy, I would never consider Toshiba after what they did back in the 80's: illegally selling advanced milling equipment to the Soviets allowing them to build more stealthy attack submarines.
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
Okay all - I work for the Naval Sea Systems Command and I can tell you the REAL goods.
We have been preparing for NMCI for years. Our original "AOR date," or Assumumption of Responsibilities, was Fall 2000. The contract award was delayed several times and finally awarded to EDS rather than the expected frontrunner, CSC. Rumor was that CSC was prepared to run with it. EDS had already disbanded their team.
NMCI has been nothing but heartache. The ISF, or Information Strike Force, a team EDS has assembled to lead the tranisition, is comprised of mostly freshfaced green sys admins who "basically" understand Windows 2000 and have decided to put 400,000 users, printers, mailboxes, etc, on TWO domains across the country. By my rough estimation, they may even run out of valid IDs for their active directory.
The ISF has been so unprepared they have pushed data inventory calls on us at the rate of once every few months. This has overwhelmed our staff and left us bankrupt energy wise. Most recently, the following two events have REALLY HAPPENED:
Upon reviewing our state of the art cat6 network, they told us they would "upgrade us" to cat5.
They told us they would replace our brand new Cisco switches, locked to the port by MAC, with older, less efficient models, because "our staff is trained on them."
The plan calls for swapping out subpar equipment in Commands who have less money and replacing it with better equipment poached from Command who have it, juggling resources but also leaving those command with less. The rumors are that they will simply NOT support a good portion of legacy apps. Also, word is that they intend to do everything from block ALL non-approved websites to lock the desktop to the wallpaper and screensaver -- with EDS LOGOS!!
The most elite support you can buy is "4 hours response time." Laptops will cost your outfit over $300 a month, and at the end of two years, it's taken away. Computers will cost over $190/mo. We could buy new equipment semi-anually for cheaper. Now they are forcing us to buy Windows 2000 licenses and migrate ourselves from NetWare 5.1.
This is a complete waste of money. Great idea on paper - absolutely deplorable and pathetic implementation. I'm embarrassed and frustrated as a taxpayer and eventually, I may quit on principle.
I've thought about going to the newspapers and sharing some of this information. As a citizen, I'm incredibly upset because it reeks of closed door deals. Your Navy is spending 6 -12 billion dollars on this, and it appears almost every command will need to stand up a second network just to function. How does that make you feel?
I have to wonder how long it takes to log on, if you have the thousands of GPO entries in place and roaming profiles needed to make all that happen.
My girlfriend is in the same situation, and it's ridiculous. If she bookmarks a site in IE, it's gone when she logs back in. But the default bookmark for Hotmail is always there. Hotmail is blocked by the Internet filer. She can't change the screen resolution or background picture.
She spend her own $$ to buy a grade book program so she can enter grades, attendance, etc. on her Palm, and transfer the info to her office computer. Except she can't install any software on the office computer. The IT guys at her school can't install software either. To install software, someone has to get in the taxpayer-purchased car at the District HQ, drive to her school, and install it for her. The in-house IT guys can't even install a printer.
Then there's the BESS internet filter, which prevents her from doing any real research. She wanted a poster of Thomas Jefferson for her classroom; all the websites where you'd buy a poster were blocked because they had "objectionable content: swimsuits." The District's policy states that BESS can be bypassed for educational research needs, but there is no system in place to make such a request. She can search Google, but the google cache is blocked.
These are "new" (less than 1yr old) Dell machines with Win2K. They are completely useless. She does all her computing work on her laptop (PII-266) at home now, because the hundreds of thousands of dollars that Seattle Schools has spent to put a computer on each desk has resulted in a useless, locked-down-to-the-point-of-being-a-kiosk computer on each desk. This is also the same school district that just gave their superintendent a raise to $220,000, who then discovered a $33 million accounting "oops." The superintendent was hired because of his strong financial background and he has never been a school teacher or administrator.
Okay, I feel better now.