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Ebay vs. Musician
evenprime writes "Ebay's Verified Rights Owner Program was designed to make sure the auction site doesn't let people
sell things that violate copyright laws. Unfortunately, over-zealous ebay employees have been causing problems for independent musicians. George Ziemann has a detailed
account of the difficulties he's faced when trying to sell copies of his CD on the auction site. Apparently ebay kept pulling his ads simply because he was selling a product recorded to CD-R!
Ebay employees assume that all audio recordings on CD-R are the result of piracy, despite the fact that many indie bands burn their own music to CD-R to sell it. Wired has a nice summary of this story."
Its called Cover You Ass.
EBAY knows doing such a thing will just bring it some bad reviews... OTOH, not doing this can bring in the RIAA hounds... what would you choose?
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Once it's written to (and finalized), it's a CD, rather than a CD-R.
So just sell it as a CD.
3. Profit?
You're probably trolling, but just for the benefit of anyone else reading this - the reason to sell through Ebay is because it's a no hassle, trusted organization. It reaches out to people who might feel unsafe giving their cc# out to some random indie "label", while still selling on the band's terms.
The truly ridiculous thing is that this system doesn't work anyway. The most common thing I've seen from people selling bootlegs or other illicit music is for the auction description to say "You are bidding on a pencil (or other random object). The winner will also receive..." The sad thing is that this usually happens with bands that don't mind their music being traded (Pearl Jam, Phish, etc.), but newbies get scammed into buying copies of stuff they could get basically free for trade. EBay has done very little to prevent abuses like this, yet they'll prevent a musician from selling his own work?!
Given that eBay is an auction site, that indies are by nature not likely to have the kind of demand that would make auctioning their music worthwhile, and that CD-Rs of their music being pressed by them isn't something that is likely to be in a strictly limited supply, what's the advantage of selling your own music on eBay over setting up your own website or using one designed to push independent music that already exists?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
More and more modern law is allowing (and sometimes encouraging) any corporation to be come a vigilante. In this case, it's obvious that Ebay has the right to deny service to any customer they please. What's disturbing is that the government is encouraging companies to adopt policies that turn that right of denial of service into the noose used to hang the guilty (as well as the 'likely guilty'). We can blame the RIAA all we want, but ultimately, the government (through action or inaction) is allowing these types of things to happen every day now.
How is that IRONIC? Did Alanis Morresette teach you the English language or something?
IRONY: Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain).
Sorry to jump down your throat, but this is one of my personal pet peeves. Irony would be if Ebay had a problem with selling CD-Rs, when they themselves were the largest supplier of blank CD-R media. Or if they wouldn't sell CD-Rs, but linked to Napster and Kazaa.
What you describe is merely a case of double standards.
Let's hope these "you're guilty, period" employees never "serve" on a jury.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
What you describe is merely a case of double standards.
I would argue it's not even a double standard. Porno is legal. CD-Rs of your own music is legal, too... The problem is the lunkheads who search for bootlegs aren't paying enough attention, and end up NOT finding the real bootleggers, instead screwing the honest musicians (because the bootleggers probably don't use the term "cd-r", but the honest musicians do).
>That is, music doesn't/can't get made without samples
Not true. I`m not sure about percentages of this vs that sound creation method, but there are all manner of ways of creating sounds - analogue synths, simulated analog synths, fm, additive, combinations of simple waveforms modified by algo's etc. Also, many samples are just simple drum/percussion samples you can get on a sample disk (or sample yourself) or whatever. This doesn't detract from your basic point, however.
I've vontacted them many times about people selling pirated MST3K videos ("Keep Circulating the Tapes" doesn't mean you can charge for them), even of episodes that Rhino and BBI has for sale.
Their answer is always "The copyright owner must contact us. Please alert them and have them get in touch with us."
I guess the same thing doesn't apply to music for some reason.
Frankly, this guy is just an Internet street singer... No offense. Some street singers are pretty good and even some had sometimes a chance to go into the "official" music arena.
But as with street singers, he's got trouble with the police patrols (in this case the uber-careful eBay). So they kick him, spread his meager cents all over the street and hint him to "get outta here". They don't wanna know if he's good or bad. They don't care for his music. They just wanna see the street looking antiseptic, wax shinny and without a single stain on it. For who? I don't know. Maybe they are worried about its nostalgic clients who dream to see the colors of the III Reich again?
and then there's that stupid PLAYING OF INSTRUMENTS that all of us luddites engage in... perish the thought that a computer doesn't make an appearance in part of our life
Someone points out that they have a fraud problem and they go whole hog after something completely different. Often their investigations are totally off base and only interfere with those honestly trying to do some legitmate business.
You're not allowed to sell your own music on CD-R just because it being on CD-R makes it automatically too likely to be inviolation of a copyright somewhere? This from the well-known auction site known for sellers who never really ship anything but cash your check or accept your cc payment anyway? The site where you can easily by "native american" artifacts or jewelry made in locations like mexico or china? The site where you can buy used dvds, videos or tapes at almost any time? Where you can buy stolen goods almost as easily as you can at the local flea market? Ebay needs to buy a life.
This is a story not about ebay trying to shut down independent musicians but rather what happens when you let a computer decide by keyword which auctions are and aren't acceptable.
His frustrations really are because the ebay "auction filter" apparently automatically stops any auction containing the words "cdr" or "cd-r".
So, this guy writes and complains as he has a right to, and yet continues to whine even when they apologize and admit that yes, they made an error. ebay tells him he can relist but he decides to be a brat and lists a couple of auctions selling "nothing" which incidentally received more bids than his band's cds did.
finally he reposts the ads which eventually get flagged by the same brainless auction filter. yes, this is frustrating and ebay should now have a human review flagged items before cancelling them but his response is totally off the wall. he complains, a person responds and apologizes but he wants to file a suit against ebay and states that:
"Ideally, I would like to file an injunction to force eBay to stop the sales of all CD media pending the resolution of this issue. I am going to pursue this through every possible avenue."
he no longer really is interested in getting the problem resolved. he then decides that the best thing to do is to mail bomb their system.
"I was going to send the message incessantly until someone called me or they shut down the comment section to force me to stop"
he did this for four hours and apparently sent 1800 e-mails.
According to the intro to his site, he spammed a bunch of people he didn't know in order to publicize himself and this issue. Well done Mr. Ziemann, your unknown band whose cds apparently received zero bids has now obtained a million dollars of free publicity.
don't support this publicity hound.
CD-Rs are not normal CDs. Labelling them as such is bad.
But ebay's autosearch bot is probably looking for precisely CD-R. So describe it as "writable CD" or "CD created with a CD writer" or something that won't trigger the autobot. Meanwhile hopefully the bad press will get ebay to make their system more flexible, and perhaps even consider making their system especially friendly to independent musicians.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
and many artists dont research it first befoer they put out their first CD's..
you can get 100 of your cd pressed in a jewel case with 4 color printing on the cd and the insert and the case spine PLUS cello wrapped for less than $3.00 a cd. that $300.00 for a first run of your CD so they look professional.. hell most musicians blow that much on booze in 2 nights of practice (ok Joking there... by my buddies and I certianly do)
there is no excuse as a musician if you have an album to sell, for you to have them pressed and looking 100% identical to that which you buy from the sellouts(Read that as RIAA members)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
You know, I'm pretty sure modifying DVD players to multiregion is legal. Totally. It's hardware, there's no EULA, and what you are doing is not copyright infringment in any way.
DVD regions are not law, not by a long shot.
I was thinking he could just make a small graphic that had the word CD-R in it... No way to 'search' on that.
Pardon my ignorance for that type of music, but aren't you just copying other people's music, mixing the ends and beginning of the songs together and selling it as yours? It seems to me that I could record the audio off of VH1's video shows where they fade one song into the next and sell that with the same infringement.
Incidently, I am *not* making a statement that being a good DJ is not a skill. Being a really good DJ, keeping the beat together, and keeping people on the floor or circulating - basically maintaining "mood" - is difficult, and certainly to be praised.
But a mix tape is a mix tape, right? So what are you selling if it isn't a mix tape (however well it's put together and however well the songs are joined)?
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Right, the RIAA. The same way the MPAA sent a take-down order for a fourth-grader's book report about Harry Potter. They don't care if the claim has any merit. All they care about is that no one distributes music except through their channels.
Nope, no sig
Indeed -- this has become a significant focus for me lately, as I've had significant difficulties getting even my own family members to stop by and look at the Open Music Registry -- my sister, for example, claimed she and her husband weren't interested because they don't pay attention to "new" artists (meaning, those lacking the corporate seal of approval). It's one thing for a typical Slashdot user to understand this; however, getting Joe/Jane Average to "get it" is something else.
Last night I posted a short Ogg audio file promoting free entertainment, which I hope people will either pick up for use directly or will take the idea and make their own, to include in Internet radio broadcasts, Free music compilations, etc. It's a long uphill battle, though.
No Laughing Allowed!
Just call the thing a CD. Lots of bands sell CD's at live shows and when you get them home they turn out to be CD-R. They work fine in almost all players. If someone complains, give them a refund including shipping costs. But really, hardly anyone cares. The first time I bought an artist's CD and it turned out to be a CD-R, I didn't think "I've been gypped!". I thought "wow, cool, I'm really 3733t for liking this obscure band!".
If you really want to mention in the auction that the disc is on recordable media, then do that. Just say "this disc was personally duplicated on recordable media by the artist and copyright holder and is a fully legitimate copy". As long as you don't use the magic letters CD-R, EBay is extremely unlikely to flag the auction.
Sheesh. There are plenty of battles that need to be fought. This isn't one. Just change the wording in your damn auction, sell your damn CD's, and then get out in the streets and protest about something that matters.
Yup. I'm guessing taht he didn't read the text of the Dependent Musician Control Act. You're only allowed to distribute bits if you're a big huge corporation. Otherwise you have to get their permission to distribute your own bits. On a serious note, that IS the wave of the future. The days of being able to distribute your own stuff will come to an end simply because if the media companies don't control that, then people will be able to compete with the big media companies. This is their great fear. Not piracy, but competition that they can only control through suppression of speech. Remember that and stop giving the copyright industry any money forever.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!