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Microsoft Alternative in Extremadura, Spain
grylnsmn writes "The Washington Post today has a front page article talking about how the Extremadura region in Spain is converting all government offices, businesses, and home from Windows to Linux. The article talks of their problems last spring and how the community banded together to solve them. "But the glitches are more an annoyance, [Ana Acevedo, who heads one of the government's document-processing units] said, than a hassle. 'It's mostly very tiny things,' she said." Overall, this is an important testbed for localities all over the world who are looking at making the switch. Overall, a very good and balanced article." Update: 11/03 20:37 GMT by T : Headline misspelled "Extremadura" as "Extramadura" -- fixed now.
It's "Extremadura", not "Extramadura".
'To get word processing, for example, users click on "Borcense," a picture of 16th century writer Francisco Sanchez de las Brozas; for the Internet, click on "Galeon," a crane that lives in the oak meadows and cereal plains of the region'
trying to spread the localized changes thin then..
Like many Linux advocates, he speaks about the software in emotional terms. "Connectivity and literacy" equals "equality and liberty," he said.
Microsoft regards such talk as too dramatic and distracting. It is software, after all, not war, company officials said. It is far more productive in their view to talk about the technical aspects of Windows vs. Linux.
I wonder if Steve Ballmer ever got that memo. Microsoft is a fun loving peaceful company. They only assimilate on accident, because they are trying to build a world of equality, fluffy clouds, and little bunnies.
editors note... Fluffy clouds-tm and little bunnies-tm is copywrited by Microsoft-TM. Do not use, or we will hunt you down and kill you.
---
When you come to a fork in the road, take it! --Yogi Berra--
OK, i'll not put my head on the block and make bold claims like "the revolution is beginning" or somesuch, but the constant small trickle of stories like these of insututions and corporations swithing from WIndows to Linux shows that Linux is a true alternative to Windows.
IT GETS THE JOB *DONE*.
It would be great to see something like that spread more widely, but hey, it's a great start!
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
Nostradumus foretold this
C4Q94
Two great brothers will be chased out of Spain,
The elder conquered under the Pyrenees mountains:
The sea to redden, Rhône, bloody Lake Geneva from Germany,
Narbonne, Béziers contaminated by Agde
The great brothers are obviously Microsoft and Intel.
After, the future doesn't look too bright. Perhaps we ought to consider?
But a major bug was discovered within days: If users tried to print or view a video or do anything that involved peripherals or multimedia, strange error messages popped up.
It took a team of developers three months to fix the problem, during which anyone who converted to Linux had to download their documents on a disk and run over to a Windows machine to print them.
The Power of Open Source: Security bugs are fixed with in 1 hour, but it takes 3 months before printing starts to work.
LOL! Good one. Unfortunately Microsoft you made it war a long, long time ago, by killing anything that stood in your way. The computer industry has been in their grip for years, we've seen some of the largest abuses of the free market in history, we've seen the law bought, then bought again and now they tell people not to be emotional?
"There's been too much theology and not enough economic analysis in the debate so far," said Bradford L. Smith, Microsoft's general counsel, who oversees the company's global lobbying tea
This is rich coming from the company that described the GPL as "unamerican". I guess they're scared people might realise there's more to computers than the opcodes they run?
"Consider that there's a lot more to the total cost and value of a product than the initial offering somebody might give you," Smith said. For instance, it is often expensive to find support services for free software, whereas such help comes bundled with the purchase of Windows. And companies like Microsoft have a vested interest in updating their products; that's not necessarily so with free software.
You can pay as much as you like Linux tech support. I paid nothing for mine, and #linuxhelp came through every single time. You can buy it if you like, and it'll be of much higher quality than Microsofts - have you ever actually tried to get through to them on the phone when it matters?
"Somebody might give you a free puppy this afternoon," Smith said, "but you're going to have to go buy dog food in the morning."
When you use analogies, you should be careful that they can't be turned around on you. In Microsofts case, they'll sell you a puppy, then kill it when it gets old and force you to buy a new one. And you still have to buy dog food.
The software has become so popular that it has been downloaded more than 55,000 times from www.linex.org by people outside Extremadura.
Good for them. I hope they succeed, and let the community know if they need anything.
This isn't somebody. This is over 100,000 machines with 10,000 switched already. I don't recall ever hearing about such a large OS conversion ever. This is news.
You obviously didn't read the article.
Already, Vazquez de Miguel said, more than 10,000 desktop machines have been switched, with 100,000 more scheduled for conversion in the next year. [...] Organizers called their version "Linex," combining the names of Linux and Extremadura. The software has become so popular that it has been downloaded more than 55,000 times from www.linex.org by people outside Extremadura.
This is a bit different in orders of magnitude from just "somebody installing Linux", isn't it?
Stupidity is mis-underestimated.
Sadly, other regions in Spain have not accepted to use free software instead of Windows.
nirvanis
Said one joyful hippie, "We was all heading to Europe anyways, what with the recent court decision and the fact that the EU's looking at coverting to open source."
"Now at least we have a destination. So what if its actually a little bizzare that the goverment is mandating / forcing / coercing the change. Heck, I'm more than willing to give up choice, cause open source is free and freedoms what its all about, baby. Its not like the pots calling the kettle black or anything."
"Microsoft regards such talk as too dramatic and distracting. It is software, after all, not war, company officials said. It is far more productive in their view to talk about the technical aspects of Windows vs. Linux."
but consider a microsoft philippines job ad
one of the responsibilities of the job microsoft is offering is...
"Demolish competition by knowing everything they do and thwarting their every move in the relevant spaces"
that's a microsoft developer evangelist for you...
Let's see, they've already transformed 10,000 machines which were previously enslaved to the windows drum over to the free'n'easy linux beat :-)
...) from above in return for bloody coin.
:-)
They've got another 100,000 scheduled for next year. That drum's just going to get louder, and louder, and louder. Can you hear it yet ? What you are hearing, ladies and gentlemen, is the hammering-in of the thin end of the wedge, and I for one can't wait for that wedge to grow.
Windows is the him-use-deep-magick-solve-problem approach, an oligarchy of high priests results with the local priests doling out consolences (note: not solutions
Linux is a meritocracy, where librarians are shown their due worth, knowledge is open to all, and the only currency you need spend is time, the only fear you need have is looking stupid when asking beginner questions. Even then, you are mostly treated well because of the "There but for the grace of [insert deity] go I" mentality.
No, I'm not a librarian, but I much prefer the latter over the former
Simon.
Physicists get Hadrons!
I live here, grew up here, and know that I'm not the only one who reads every front page story in the Post every day.
Best Slashdot Co
What's newsworthy about this story is that someone has taken a significant step towards doing it.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Ehm ... in a word:
No.
Linux is a kernel. Windows is an entire operating system.
Add a bunch of various GNU/BSD/Whatever programs, and you end up with something, that sometimes are better than Windows, and sometimes with something that isn't.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
they have their own distro. Based in Debian 3.0 + Gnome2:
http://www.linex.org
Yeah! Who do they think they are?
And why the fuck do they decide, what language you should learn in school, or which side of the road to drive, let alone what currency to use?!?
Sheesh! The nerve of some people.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
Ooooh, goody, another libertarian troll!
There have always been alternatives. The issue was whether Microsoft was using its dominant position in the industry to strangle anyone it thought might be a competitor- e.g. using its near-monopoly on preloaded OSes to force OEMs into deals that prohibited loading competitor's software as well. It's not illegal to have a monopoly alone; you have to leverage that monopoly in restraint of trade. Rather than actually innovate their way into new markets, they simply used their existing strength to prevent others from participating.
(A related example: my parents home still has pieces of phone equipment that say "property of AT&T", because before their monopoly was split up you couldn't use non-AT&T equipment, even though in theory anyone could manufacture it.)
The antitrust thing was BS because browser tying was a bullshit example and the government made a crappy case. Microsoft did plenty of worse things that it deserved to get slapped down for. Like telling Apple that if it didn't make IE the default browser on OS 9 and hide Netscape, they'd drop Office for Mac.
And, um, you do realize that the antitrust suit was brought by the US government on behalf of US consumers, and not the Spanish government, right? Or would such facts get in the way of your misguided free-market cheerleading?
Who is "stealing" market share? That editorial blurb seemed wrong to me from the gitgo.
IMHO, if anyone chooses to use an alternative OS or hardware, they have the right to do so. There is no theft involved, just freedom of choice.
db
Cig:
ôô
I'm not (unless you want to mix in BSD/whatever).
My point is that you can't compare Linux to Windows; that's like comparing a 2.0 L engine to a car. Add various stuff to it however, and you end up with a car, that you can compare to the other car.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
It's not really an anti-Microsoft bias, it's more of an anti-Microsoft reflex.
Amazing magic tricks
any post that starts with, 'this will likely get moderated down because of the slashdot bias' should get modded down.
it's just throwing mud, why not discuss the article? for the record, while slashdot might have an anti-ms bias (_might_) they probably give ms more press and publicity than any non-ms site I know of. consider the frequency of days where there are 3 posts dealing with microsoft (like today).
I recently went with a friend to buy a new computer and found 2 pre-built systems with identical hardware but different operating systems. One had Windows XP and the other Redhat. There was a $200 price difference between the systems and it was due to the software license cost.
The savings alone would have been enough for me to decide on the Linux box but my friend has no experience on any OS other that Microsoft so he went with the XP. The first time I had to work on a Sun Solaris box, it took a few days for me to figure out how the damn thing worked but I learned. Same for Linux, but with time and use I am pretty comfortable with the OS.
Until people either begin their computer learning or receive training with non-Microsoft operating systems, I don't see any major shift from MS/OS to open source in the US any time soon, even though the cost savings could be in the billions.
By the way,have the trolls noted the "Hemerotica" section on the Linex site? That should be another entry for the Linux Gay Conspiracy post....
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
It's not really an anti-Microsoft bias, it's more of an anti-Microsoft reflex.
Reflexes are evolution's way of saving lives. Poke your finger into some hot coals and the back of your hand hits your forehead before you can say "Hot!". It's the same with Windows.
"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them." -- George H. W. Bush
Hell, I was called a crazy zealot because I made the claim that for 30% of computer users Linux would be the best solution right now. (I didn't even say for a majority, just 30%.)
And it's not just "somebody" in the article, it's 10000 desktops with 100000 more to come.
We need such articles to counter the constant bashing (by pro-Windows people) and the constant whining (by many pro-Linux people).
What does that have to do with his point? It's not illegal (for the most part) to leverage if you don't have a monopoly, and the existence of a viable competitor is incompatible with someone having a monopoly.
And, um, you do realize that the antitrust suit was brought by the US government on behalf of US consumers, and not the Spanish government, right? Or would such facts get in the way of your misguided free-market cheerleading?
And what does that possibly have to do with his point? Linux only works in Spain, and not in the US?
No, he has a valid point that's been made here since the start of the antitrust case, when people were simultaneously arguing that Red Hat 5.0 was clearly superior to any Microsoft offering, but that Microsoft was a monopoly because it had no competition. I'd say the best argument you could make for the antitrust case was that three years ago, Linux did not, in fact, offer real competition on the desktop. Of course, since this project is Debian-based, it _is_ three year old Linux, so...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Has anyone translated the distro to English or some other language than Spanish?
Has anyone here tried it for that matter?
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
When I was in grade 10, I took a manditory computer studies class that taught us to use Microsoft Powerpoint, Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Access, and nothing else.
In grade 11 we studied Visual Basic, and in my grade 12 Cisco networking class we learned to configure TCP/IP and SMB on Windows XP - so much for router configuration.
I tried to join the club that maintained the school's website, but they wouldn't accept hand-coded HTML - you had to use FrontPage, or you couldn't join.
Extremadura is distributing free CDs, which seems relatively harmless when compared to what happens here in Toronto.
The US Army: promoting democracy through unquestioned obedience
By being so lax on MSFT.
Often it is said that it is only logical, in these times of economic troubles, that the US government does not act too harsh on 'its own' software powerhouse MSFT.
But (apart from the damage it does to other domestic software companies): as can be read in the article, many foreign institutions/governments are very uneasy at the thought of being at the mercy of a single, foreign company (and rightly so). Therefore they abandon (or try to, gradually they shall succeed) MSFT and turn to the only alternative: Linux or other open source solutions.
Not that I oppose this, not at all. But from the perspective of US economic interest, it is clear that this diminishes software export turnover, which is bad. A more effective war against MSFT's illegal behaviour and monopoly would give alternative companies a chance, many of them would also be US companies. They could fill the hole, partly instead of Linux; this would create more choice for everyone, and would make many foreign governments feel more comfortable at the thought of importing and being dependant on foreign software. The net effect for the US trade balance of a harsh attitude against MSFT therefore would surely be positive, instead of negative as is often thought.
I was talking about this with people at the SCALE Linux expo yesterday. Linux will have a tough time gaining market share in the U.S. for assorted reasons. But countries outside the U.S. software and hardware costs make running cutting edge system cost prohibitive. With Linux using Linux they can save enough money on software and reinvest in hardware, but also invest in developers to support their business and contribute back to world community. This will help improve Linux and OSS an draw the attention of more U.S. users. Increased use of Linux by business outside the U.S. will give Linux the track record U.S. enterprises want to see.
I'm sick of morons who don't get it. (Microsoft broke an agreement goddamnit. They agreed not to bundle IE with Windows and they did bundle IE with Windows at the next possiblitly.)
I'm sick of monopoly-whiners constantly complaining. We don't need whiners, we need a positive, optimistic attitude in the Linux community.
Let's face it: The US-government is both incompetent and corrupt.
There is no hope that the US-government will ever reintroduce a free, open and capitalistic market in the OS space (yes, you read that right. The market is not open. The force-bundelings of Windows are more close to communism than Linux can ever become), we will have to do that ourselves.
Let's forget that courtcase and move on.
And it can be done. All the mainstream software is right available. - Just show the software to users. All users I showed Mozilla to loved it (either because of tabbed browsing or because of ad-blocking). It's harder to convert the whole platform, but I've done that for a couple of users, too. After initial glitches and minor problems, it's much better and problem-free than any Windows installation.
No, the job of the government is not to tell you what operating system to use -though US government seems to have told you exactly that.
But it's the job of the government:
- To save costs in administration.
- To make sure citizens are given options in a free market.
- To worry about the security of the data they manage and be sure software they use makes exactly what it's intended to do.
- Anything that can benefit the community as a whole...
Wouldn't it be something if the United States ended up being a technological ghetto because it continued to use Microsoft products while the rest of the world moved on to Linux?
In Extremadura, the regional government paid a local company $180,000 to cobble together a set of freely available software. The resulting disk contains a suite of programs that includes an operating system, word processor, spreadsheet and other applications.
My emphasis.
This CANNOT be accurate; no one gets $180,000 to make "a cobble(d) together... disc" of free software.
I almost fell off my chair when I read that!
Mind you, they (the regional government) saves money even paying this much to one company...then there is the support contract...
(4) Profit!
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
No, in other words, the transition to Linux has not been without its share of problems.
No, it's a good and balanced article because it discussed the problems involved in the switch, such as the one mentioned above and the one that took three months to fix. That is hardly a facile pro-Linux/anti-MS bias.
How about Extreme Linux, or Durable Linux? Guess they must not speak english over there, or something. ;-)
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Not at all. When a particular topic (in this case Microsoft) is in the news, people take a greater interest in that topic and more related stories are published.
Aide: Sr. presidente, necesitamos más dinero para nuestras escuelas. Necesitamos comprar computadoras para nuestros niños.
(Mr. President, we need more money for our schools. We need to buy computers for our kids.
Presidente: Bien, podemos aumentar impuestos?
(Should we raise taxes?)
Aide: Ningún Sr.
(No sir.)
Presidente: Tengo una idea. Vamos anunciar que estamos cambiando a Linux. Debemos recibir una donación grande de Microsoft muy pronto. Después que podemos cambiar detrás.
(I have an idea. Let's announce that we're switching to Linux. We should receive a large donation from Microsoft very shortly. After that we can switch back.)
Aide: Idea excelente! Usted es un genio!
Excellent idea! You are a genius!
5. Are those upside-down question marks the cutest little things you've ever seen, or what?
TheFrood
If you say "I'll probably get modded down for this..." then I will mod you down.
Ofcouse there's politics behind; they want their own distibution like France(mandrake) and Germany(SuSE). Besides I guess one of the important tasks for LinEx is likely to write a simpler installer and make disks that defaults to spanish locale and supports euro-sign out of the box (unlike Debian )
The MS puppy is neutered, and can't breed. The free puppy still has its nuts, and will happily sire a litter of vigorous bastards for you.
"Microsoft regards such talk as too dramatic and distracting. It is software, after all, not war, company officials said. It is far more productive in their view to talk about the technical aspects of Windows vs. Linux."
You want productive and dramatic? Here's the breakdown:
Windows = $150+ (depending on where you get it)
Linux = Free, Nominal fee if you buy a packaged distro
Wow. Rocket Science. Those are the numbers that Joe and Jane Public understand. And once they find out that Linux does alot of what they want to do with computers, Linux is gonna look a whole lot better when they get to Wal-Mart.
Now, let's look at it from a government perspective:
Windows = Closed Source, any software is going to be both proprietary and costly.
Linux = GNU GPL allows for total customization of the OS and applications without having to spend a fortune.
Unless MS is in bed with a government (like it is with ours here in the US), that Government is going to like the idea that, instead of spending millions on licenses and proprietary software, they can spend under a million on a few programmers who can tailor everything to their exact specifications. And the big issue, Security, can be resolved during the process of customization. Any Geek worth his salt can recognize a potential security flaw in the code. With Windows, you're sitting on your laurels waiting for an announcement and patch (MS has been known to wait quite a while to release them), and also those ever sneaky EULA changes.
It's a no-brainer, really. Linux and its OS brothers and sisters (and bastard children) are the most logical choice. Cost effective and customizable, something both Governments and Joe/Jane (in this case, Jose/Juanita) Puiblic can both understand.
Looks like Gates' travel itinerary has grown again. First India, now Spain. If he has to keep giving out "free software" to convince people that his is the right path to take, MS will go broke.
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
>Let's face it: The US-government is both incompetent and corrupt.
He he... Our Spanish-government is also both incompetent and corrupt, but you're right, it plays with an advantage: it is not the US-government.
Thank Buddha it's not Linux+Extremadura = Durex.
--
If you moderate this, then your children will be next.
Show me some examples.
For info on the packages in linex check here.
There are no packages that would suggest that. You can check the source to see if there are specific changes.
That is the beauty of Open Source you can check the source. Which is again my question can you show me some examples. Of this. I agree it is a possible dark side but the system of Open Source has checks and balances against that. More so then corporate software.
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said: "I drank what?" - Chris Knight (Val Kilmer)- Real Genius
Nice Web site, but I don't get your point. I didn't read through the entire site, but I didn't see any particular indication that it was created for, or limited to, or espoused the exclusive use of Windows software.
So, what did happen in Toronto?
Your Servant, B. Baggins
This is nothing new, read this entry:
d
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhoo
It makes sense in the medium to long term. If you plan to live longer than a year it makes sense. If you are suicidal, over 80 and/or a cancer patient it probably doesn't make sense.
Are you really so slow or why do I have to explain that to you? It's really not that complicated.
When I read this, I thought about it for a few minutes and I realized that there's a number of interesting issues that make it worthwhile for governments in other countries to really carefully consider migrating to free software:
:-P)
:)
1) Licensing: Software licensing is expensive and restrictive (particularly from everyone's favorite punching bag, Microsoft), and outside governments can likely save $200-$700 per machine on budgeting if they choose open-source alternatives. (Since their user base hasn't yet grown to be dependent on M$ products, they have far fewer usability issues when migrating their infrastructure-- just interoperability ones).
2) Security: Linux/BSD Unix/etc. are open-source and since developers all over the world are reviewing them 24 hours a day (while you sleep, there's someone on the other side of the world looking at the code for the kernel, which is always kinda cool) security issues are found, publicized and fixed much sooner than from closed-source software vendors. Foreign governments in particular should find this attractive, I'd imagine.
3) Maintainability: If a user needs a feature (say, the ability to use the new Euro currency symbol, or the inverted date-parsing of 23/01/2002) then, rather than having to wait for a proprietary company to develop a localized version of your software (several months to perhaps years of lead time if it's a big application that has a long product cycle) you can just go and change the source code as necessary to incorporate whatever you need.
4) Economic independence: I have to believe that one of the reasons so many outside countries are considering switching to free software is in order to avoid having their information infrastructures become dependent upon systems from large American software vendors. After all, suppose economic sanctions or US trade policy towards a hostile nation shut off someone's software licenses. (Particularly for big, expensive applications that authenticate with a central server at the developer's control, this is a valid concern!) It seems like investing in owning your own IT structure (not licensing it) is a good choice to preserve national independence.
5) Political Integrity: In an open-source system (particularly a voting system, which is the easiest example to choose) the user (voter or government) has a clear view of the inner workings and how everything goes. If I conduct an election, I want to make sure there are no bugs in the system, so I will inspect the source code and run a few tests to make sure everything works properly. If the program is closed-source, I cannot do that; I must rely on the manufacturer's assurances that everything works properly. And I don't have any way of auditing an election to make sure the votes were tabulated properly; the machine simply spits out a result, and I am bound to accept it. (This, of course, is one of the things that infuriates me about the new voting equipment in Florida!
I just thought that, really, the confluence of all the above issues makes very compelling case for these governments to consider migrating to open-source software. I'm not surprised by the growing trend....
-d
So what?
Be happy because if they were pro-Windows, you would not be allowed to post your opinon here (were are all those forums on pro-Windows sites? Where are they? I don't see any, because they don't exist.)
slashdot is one of the few sites still run by amateurs. They make typing mistakes, sure. They make editing errors. They have duplicate stories. But it's one of the few major sites left not controlled by big corps. And they let anonymous guys like you post their opinion.
If Micorsoft would have won the battle against the Internet, we would now all run the proprietary MSN service (which is very different to the MSN today.), only big corps could afford to put something on the net and there would be no Linux, no slashdot and you could not write your opinion in a forum, because such forums would also not exist.
"Internet will never be popular" - Bill Gates
I guess it depends on whether you need the development environment or not. I did some voice-synthesis programming for DOS, Unix and Windows. The DOS and Unix versions were all in one codebase, totalling about 2000 lines of code including the assembly routines needed for DOS. It supported 3 driver variations under DOS, 5 under Linux and 2 under Solaris. The DOS executable would run on a 16MHz 286 with no skipping or drop-outs. The Linux executable would run on a 20MHz 386, and by the time you loaded it up enough to get noticeable skipping and drop-outs in the audio it was taking 10-20 seconds for console keystrokes to echo. The only development environment I needed was Emacs.
The Windows version used the DirectSound interface. I had to use the development environment because that was the only way to generate all the overhead code. Manually generated code totalled about 6000 lines to support just the Win32 and DirectX APIs (ie. no support for DOS or Win3.1 at all). Auto-generated code added several thousand lines to that. Performance... well, on a 200MHz Pentium Pro I could cause painful drop-outs in the audio just by moving the mouse around. As for development time, it took longer to develop the one Windows version than it took to develop the entire combined DOS/Unix one even with the development environment on Windows.
I think the main reason you don't see complex IDEs for Unix is that Unix programmers try to avoid the kinds of complex frameworks that make IDEs such a neccessity in the Windows world.
Never buy a dog from a Pikie.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --