Slashdot Mirror
Restaurant POS Systems?
glamslam asks: "As the newly appointed technology director at a large restaurant chain, I've been given the task of evaluating and implementing a Point of Sale (POS) system. The main goal is to save costs on deployment across hundreds of restaurants. Another goal is to find a solution that is flexible enough to adapt to our unique operational model. Most of the vendors' products I have seen are based on Windows. I prefer the openness, flexibility, and cost-savings of Linux, yet I do not want to build the system from the ground up. Has anyone been involved in POS projects and managed to put Linux into the mix?" Are there any features that restaurants need that your traditional POS system may not include?
You should google before doing an ask slashdot question. This question is however a good question for us all. I think dennies uses linux based pos units... burlington coat factory switched everything to linux... i think including the pos units... Perhaps a google search, or just calling those companies up and asking who supplied their pos systems would be a good start.
I'm not sure how far along this project is...
but BananaPOS seems to be decent.
http://bananapos.com/pos/index.html
ChiefArcher
Jamie Zawinski (former Lucid Emacs / Netscape hacker) looked into the option of Linux POS devices for his nightclub. You might want to read about his experiences.
Linux has been used on cash registers in the past. If I recall correctly, The Home Depot, uses Linux in its system. However, I wouldn't want to go with what they use because it doesn't have a lot of functionality. I tried to get a subtotal printed on my receipt and it couldn't do it.
Links:
Don't you mean Piece Of Shit? Huh? Huh?
By the way, first post.
sPh
And when you say you want "flexible", what's more flexible than a system that you have complete freedom to tailor, can be deployed on whatever hardware you deem appropriate, and doesn't come with ties to the future whims of a proprietary OS provider.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
I am sort of in the same boat as the original poster, and all I can say is what we did to make it work:
We went with Aloha for the POS systems, and then I slapped in a box we were going to throw away and use it to grab all the figures and dump them to the home office via some trivial bash scripts.
I begged and pleaded with the management team of the restaurant to find something linux based, but
nothing was mature enough that fit the bill.
Good luck.
Once all the POS systems at Fuddruckers were down because thir windows based network was infected with NIMDA. They couldn't figure out how to sell hamburgers without them. Four people had to suggest using pen, paper and a calculator to record sales before the manager would do it. You are right to want to avoid windows, but you need to be ready to stay open if all the computers crash even on Linux. Keep the old style guest checks on hand, and some pocket calculators.
How ya like dat?
Are there any features that restaurants need that your traditional POS system may not include?
:-)
You bet. The system must be able to keep track of what order is associated with what table. This is done efficiently in the restaurant by being able to program the layout of the tables on the floor, and using touch screens to tap the right table when processing the order.
Also, there should be a way in the system for the server of the order to get reimbursed for tips left on credit card bills automatically.
I don't imagine Home Depot built these features into their systems.
On the subtraction side, there obviously isn't much call for barcode readers to be integrated into a restaurant POS solution, which is pretty much a standard feature on modern retail machines.
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
Any restaurant/bar that I've worked at, and most that I've gone to have used the Squirrel system. Well, at least in Canada that has been the case. Anyway, they still use a Windows backend, but they just converted to an embedded Linux POS terminal. Maybe the rest of the system will convert to Linux in the near future as well.
a lot of what I think you would be concerned about is the back end databases more than the front end. I am just guessing because I don't do retail/restaurant/inventory and the like but you'd want your POS system to help plan individual restaurant inventories; determine trends in what people are ordering; as well as track activity in each site such as the individual orders, cash transactions, server logins (Jenny, Joe, Jill or Jerod don't all just toss money into the box they mark who did what so the store manager can adjust how many tables each is assigned to, etc.) You'll want to either order off the shelf or baseline and complete development of a database or restaurant management software for that, I would think.
After that your front-end - whatever the hosts/esses and servers (my sis-in-law waits tables and nearly drowned me in my sink for calling her a waitress) could be just about any client OS that can connect to your central system. I would assume a stripped-down version of anything, including Linux, could be used at that point because all they need is terminal utilities for orders, credit card processing, and the like.
By the way, could you share with us how you landed a job like this? Or at least me [at adelphia dot net or hotmail dot com, makes no difference]? It sounds pretty interesting and a strong example of technology for work improvement's sake, not just to put shiny new boxes on the admin staff's desk.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
I think a barcode reader might be very efficient not in the front, but in the back. Which of my sites got all 30 cases of steak sauce; so I can get 23-27 of them to other locations?
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
Linux is the biggest POS of an OS I've seen, so it should be just what you're looking for.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Use standard web technology. That way, it doesn't matter which server/client you use. You can use a PDA for the client, or a cell phone, or whatever...
Run it over some SSL on an internal only network. Put a desktop as the end machine, and lock it down to only launch the POS client.
PC hardware is cheap, web serving is a known science, and the technology is proven stable. Use standard ethernet network.
This isn't the sig you are looking for... Carry on...
You missed the big one: spill proofing.
We addapted a retail POS system for restaurrant use back in the 80's, and at the end of the first trial month about a quarter of the hardware had been killed by the environment. IMHO, it's harsher than outdoors (when was the last time it rained ethanol, carboxilic acid, acetic acid, etc.?) and harsher than many industrial environments (where at least the people get more training).
-- MarkusQ
One company I work for owns cruise ships. They decided to upgrade their POS systems two years ago, deployed across three vessels and in one land-based facility. I evaluated several systems, including most industry heavyweights like Squirrel, Sabre, and Micros. I decided to deploy RCS. They were by far the most affordable and flexible for our rather unique operation (our restaurants move, they can't be affordably directly networked together with any reasonable throughput to a centralized location, and our business deals with a lot of pre-sale.) The company is based in Portland, Oregon where the company I work for is based, so that was an added bonus.
The owner of RCS, Eric, is also the programmer of the software. He is on top of his game, is very down to earth, and has a quality support staff working with him, though I have rarely needed them because the software is so well realized for what it does.
The version we use runs on DOS: fast, stable, simple. You can use any old hardware without a hiccough. We use Quantum Snap servers for centralized storage. Use any pc you want for your credit card processing which doubles as a mirror for the data on the quantum in case of failure. CAT-5 ties the workstations together. All the data can be exported as CSV's so there isn't any lock-in as far as your history.
RCS doesn't lie to you about the ridiculous markups that occur in the restaurant industry on the hardware side; they will let you roll your own should you choose as the software is hardware agnostic, though I did install industrial-grade workstations with spill-resistant touch panels and cases. Don't skimp on the hardware you put in the hands of your wait staff; any money you think you are saving up front will be lost the first time it fails, and they will come up with the most creative ways to break things you have ever seen.
Running computers in a marine environment is a challenge, due to inconsistent power and climate. We have not had one instance of hardware or software failure in the POS system itself in the two years it has been deployed on any of our vessels. We did have a UPS get dropped in a bus tub full of soapy water while connected to a running system. The network did not fail and the unit attached to the assaulted UPS worked fine when rebooted on another UPS.
I can not recommend RCS highly enough.
How much for a bowl of hot grits served over a naked and petrified Natalie Portman?
1. Install Linux POS
2. ???
3. Profit!
Keep It Simple Stupid
Sanyo Cash register $100
Pencil & Pad of Paper $2
The look of disappointment on the Linux Hippy's face. Priceless!
Wagamama is a chain of Japanese restaurants in London and other places.
The waitresses use iPaqs fitted with wireless cards to take your order. (Very efficiently I might add).
The was a rumour circulating a few months ago, that a group of costumers saw this, and hacked their network using a laptop they had, the proceeded to order and eat a three course meal for each of them, while only paying for a soda each.
I don't know if it is true, but considering the usual record for corporate deployment of wireless technology, it sounds plausible.
It's nobel that you want to look at something Linux based, but as someone already pointed out, JWZ made that mistake on our behalf already.
I've worked with several different systems over the years, and Micros always came out ahead. There's a reason they have the kind of market saturation they have -- their stuff works, it's indestructible, and it's not terrible expensive.
From a management perspective (having used it both in Hotels and Restaurants), their reporting is pretty good too: inventory, audit, closing, etc.
You should look around, and get an idea what's out there, but try to choose a system that's easy for your people to use, and more importantly is the best tool to solve this particular problem. If that isn't something Linux based, so be it.
Good luck.
"All I ever wanted was to see Larry Wall give Bill Gates a Perl necklace."
http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen
Check out eCentra - their ViewPoint POS is a Java-based system that runs on Linux.
(Important note: I work for a POS software company, and my opinion is therefore certainly biased!)
I think that the very first thing you should do is create a big wish list about the functionality you want, and indicate the priority of all your wishes. You're telling that you prefer a Linux based system, but most certainly you'll have to give up functionality for this wish. Look specifically at the back-office, since most POS systems offer all the basics.
I think that the flexibility of the application will not be a problem in an installation of this size. My experience is that vendors are willing make customisations to get big clients like you. At least, the company I work for works that way.
Finally a shameless link to our software: www.icg.es/eng/.
Brain Tags |
They use a SCO Unix/Linux based POS system. I don't know who you would contact about that, but I'm sure you could contact someone at corporate and inquire.
*slight crashing sound*
Perhaps you could use this as an opportunity to help drag the USA into the 21st century but using those wireless handheld credit-card swipe devices that are common in Europe, Japan and elsewhere?
There is nothing worse in the US than being ready to leave after a nice meal, the waiter/waitress having dissapeared somewhere with your credit card, and you are waiting impatiently for their return - which often takes an inordinate amount of time for some reason (perhaps they get distracted?).
There are several low-cost PDAs that can run Linux around.
/..sig file not found - permission denied.
I work for a small sized retail chain (16 stores). We use RetailPro which is just a piece of shit. Every 6-8 months I look for alternatives. Linux would of course be ideal. But for this size, there just aren't a lot of options, regardless of OS. Bigger chains have the resources to roll their own. You may want to look into that. As someone mentioned, front ends are pretty much the same, it's the back office, and transaction polling that you have to look at. I think that it would be fairly trivial to write up a couple scripts and/or rsync to maintain customer data across stores, and whatever other data you would need. I have neither the skill not the time (mostly not the time) to do it myself.
I've seen it used in several pubs around here and it seems very easy to use, with multiple staff using the same terminals at the same time, by just logging in instantly with a fob-like device they wore.
Here's a tip: it's called a fucking "cash register", you moron!
That's why you haven't been able to find one at Office Depot.
That's the point of asking moron. Others can give him ideas to start with and work it out. Quit being such a fucking asshole.
First off, most venders I spoke with are researching Linux as an option, but are waiting before they implement anything.
That said, there are a few "platform-independent" options sprouting up. Siva Corp has an interesting enterprise POS package (Web Based / MySQL backend). Tesoro's Volante has a nice looking java-based system. I've googled like crazy over this topic and found a few smaller players (BananaPOS mentioned above somehow escaped my searches).
Then there are a few Linux-native solutions such as Sicom POS.
The temptation is to look for a "mature" POS product with thousands of deployments before you make a decision such as this. This, of course, does not exist. We are now deciding to be "early adopters" because we believe in the stability, openness, and cost-effectiveness of using open platforms. Eventually we hope to have all of our back-office computers running Linux / Open Office.
If you've been around this industry for very long, then you know that this is not an industry on the cutting-edge. (Unless you are a huge, multi-unit operator). Look for a case-study on open source in the food service business in about 6-8 months. Hopefully it will be positive. (Or I will be looking for another career ;)
(1) Older or revamped OS/2 solutions... highest flexibility, but requiring someone who knows OS/2 and such to allow use of such flexibility.
(2) AIX/*NIX with OS/2, Win__, etc clients
(3) Entirely Win systems
Now my breakdown on the matter...
(1) OS/2 - will be difficult (unless you know people who are on Sears' support team or that of some other company like them) to find someone with the "expertise" to implement or expand or customize an OS/2 solution... even though it is far easier (even 5 years ago) than most every other solution.
- "Unlimited" expandability (add up all the SEARS POS terminals, catalog system and multimedia kiosks and then you see what a true network OS with a high end commercial scale POS system can do on "mere" PC hardware. The Win solutions will never approach that level. - handles POS and related systems for 3,000 departments.
- All in all, unless or until eComStation continues to gain more Win converts that the POS market on OS/2 is revitalized, it is probably not the way to go.
(2) Numerous packages can still be bought with phenomenal support (at a phenomenal cost though).
*IX solutions use some TTY interface (depends on implementation) so most client OS's work. Not very flexible or customizable.
There are GUI (Solaris) apps available, including with perl scripting support, but they are very very expensive, and (thus) usually "customized" for each client. We used one such at UUNet back in the late 90's (and I think still today, but I no longer work there).
(3) Win apps seem mostly to be VB apps, poorly written, (ask CompUSA who dumped a perfectly running RS/6000 POS setup for a "glitzy" Win95/98 in house written, crash a lot system - they never even finished transferring the whole system to it due to the problems, hence the sales and stock system is still separate and on the mainframe, or ask Best Buy and PetCo who are having nothing but crashing issues on package "off the shelf" (well, the "high-end" commercial version).
I've researched a lot of the issues, and have yet to find any people truly happy with the lower end systems, most especially on Win__. (I researched it because we were in teh process of writing our own app, but as the maker of our main development tool fell behind on their final release, we never were able to release ours (required DLLs from their final release).
From our plans based off feedback just like you are requesting, here is what I've gleaned is needed nowadays (as well as 4 years ago when we planned this)...
- integrated fax capabilites (user selectable per customer as method of invoicing and statements)
- integrated email capabilities (same)
- web integration of most or all components
- integrated account and contact database (with all components such as web, fax, email, phone, etc)
- online ordering (web integration, "shopping cart")
- barcoding and barcode reading
- credit card processing (directly or through a third party processor)
- callout feature [larger scale users (collections purposes, cold calling, re-calls, etc) or "glitz" feature for smaller users]
- image and basic catalog support (output to pdf or direct to print for those with their own high end printers)
- Caller ID incoming capabilities (larger firms for increased productivity in auto records retrieval, etc, or smaller firms "glitz" feature).
- Variable print formats (sorry those who sell these retardely overprice POS systems, but STAR and other printers are simple Epson graphics mode with a couple extra codes for cash drawer machines, or HPPL/PCL printers... you dont need to charge a fortune to add 3 extra control sequences and a manual that explains how large a graphic can be).
- Contract, form and misc document feature (to for instance, print a web contract with the related invoice with all the appropriate info - I mean, c'mon gang (who writes this expensive crap), it can even be done with a simple "mail merge" into a pre-typeset document).
- flexibility for various network schemes (really simply use of __SQL back end and appropriate net protocol to talk to the ___SQL server.
- Of course, all the standard accounting features
- Job and item numbering, serialization (serial number tracking and recording), etc.
- Item lookup by serial number or product number (makes selling and invoicing a breeze with most computer and electronic devices... the beginning of the serial number on most identifies the product, meaning, you can inventory by serial number scanning once the identifier is in the database and let the system handle all the rest. Sell a product, scan only the serial number and let the system cross reference all the rest also allowing for fully accurate SN tracking).
- Contact manager (I dont mean an address book - I mean "12/10/2001 13:45 Called Joe and advised payment late. He said check in mail." etc... with related options always available that generate Contact entries such as click "Re-Invoice" and the next entry is "12/10/2001 13:47 Generated new invoice to be sent via regular mail" (or preferred method per customer).
- EASY options to change on the fly methods of sending invoices and documents
Those are just a few off the top of my head...Rob
WebMaster:
BinFeeds
XXX Thumbnailed Image Newsgroups but
Squirrel now runs on Linux
360Commerce. J2EE based solution. Not free although it is made for large installations.
Pair up in threes. - Yogi Berra
I supported my self through school as a fast food manager. I recall one night when all the registers went down, at 8:00pm. I put in a priority one call to support (Although I might have figgured it out on my own that is not a good idea, expirence has proven I make mistakes that the system cannot handle, so it is better to let it be their mistake for blame purposes. besides I had a buisness to run) They finially called me back at 1:30am, and it took two hours to fix the problem.
Make sure you find out how support is handled, and what the longest wait time is. I know that it was a busy night for them at support, but my priority one call needs to be delt with now, even if there are other priority one calls in the system. Will you get the support you need? Remember you are a comptuer person, the manager might (or might not) be smart, but either way has no time to figgure out how to fix problems.
...are a POS, anyway.
Face it, guys, you waltzed right into that one!
http://www.compiere.org/
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Professor Russ Nelson's CS450 class at Clarkson University is writing a POS system for restaurants. Doubtless it will be lacking some features you want, but enough should be there to give you a start. There's 13 teams: ten writing server terminals, two writing a management workstation, and one doing the database. Google for him.
"New York , N.Y. - 01/15/2001 -- Fujitsu-ICL Systems Inc. announced today the Liberator, a new Linux-based point-of-sale software solution that supports and enhances existing IBM 4690 point-of-sale (POS) supermarket applications. The combination of Liberator and the Fujitsu TeamPoS(r) 2000 POS terminal gives supermarket retailers using IBM 4690 systems a low-risk POS hardware alternative that reduces costs, adds power and graphics, and provides an open systems environment. Liberator, available in March, is the first Linux offering from Fujitsu-ICL."
Fujitsu Liberator gives retailers open-systems options for IBM 4690 POS systems
Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
Run apps remotely. Run em locally. Run KDE kdm, fvwm xdm, gnome gdm. full scale or scaled down. New computer or old 486.
The real problem here isn't the underlying OS... virtually all the commercial POS systems are extremely proprietary.
:)
Even if you've got it running on an open operating system the openness you're hoping for isn't going to come easy. Many of these companies won't talk to the end user about how their products work (or how to extend them in some way), but refer you to authorized support companies. These companies insist on micromanaging your businesses use of the POS system (some even insist on being able to remotely access all the data on your servers) and won't tell the end user how to do anything beyond "this is a mouse".
I spent my first year out of college admining a Fujitsu TeamPOS system and trying to learn how to maintain the thing was like pulling teeth. The manuals were long but uninformative, all the file formats were proprietary, and while the systems used commodity hardware (486s) they combined it with some of the darnedest interface boards I've ever seen (which, by the way, do not respond well to cashiers spilling Apple Juice on them) and the device drivers for them were built not into the OS, but into the register program itself.
When the store finally closed I couldn't even get anyone to tell me how to delete the sales data (which the owner insisted on). I wound up lowlevel formatting every last harddrive in the systems before we left, that'll teach 'em
Anyhow, I'd take an open POS system running Windows NT over a proprietary system running Linux any day.
If you are looking for a POS system that is Linux based-- Our system is entirely written to target Linux back ends and runs as a web (dhtml) thin client architecture within the stores providing centralized administration and reporting to web users. I'm not in sales, so I don't have a lot of fancy stuff to send you, but if you're interested I'd be more than happy to put you in touch with the sales side. Chris Kaltwasser Chief Technical Officer NetPOS.com, Inc.
We had the oppurunity to so a project for a Hotel and resturant chain having 6 Counters (POS) through-out the city. The S/W was made nearly 2 years back on Perl /Tk and My SQL as backend. We had incorporated a fair bit of networking which was of a gr8 use, Happily they are still using the same system called HARIAMS Ver 2.o As its not freely available I am unable to give u more details.
0 0