Moving Your Kids to Linux?

telecaster asks: "My kids are aged 11, 7 and 3. All of them are computer savvy. They use the computer for basically three things: Games, writing papers and chatting with friends, as well as browsing sites that are frequented by children their age (Nick, Cartoon Network, How Things Work, Yahoo!Kids, and others). All of this is supervised and watched by my wife and I -- we don't use any parental filters since we've found they just don't work, and it's just better to keep a watchful eye anyway. I would like to move them off Windows XP and introduce them to something less expensive (free) and more reliable. I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week, not to mention the forever problem of lockups and hangs which seem to happen during the times where the 3 year-old is using the machine. I know the crashes are mainly due to the older games that the kids play which are not totally compatible with XP, but hey, they USED to run just fine under Windows98."

"My real motivation to do this is to save money and to teach my children that sometimes the best isn't always the most expensive. Also, being the cheap bastard that I am, I'm looking at all the money we've spent on Windows XP, Office and all the games over the years, and I'm wondering if there isn't a way to slowly supplant Linux into the mix and not sacrifice my children's computer experience but at the same time save some money and teach them something new.

My requirements are simple: I would like them to run their CD-ROM based games (which are mostly Director based games from Hasbro), and I would still like them to chat with their friends and also be able to play online Flash and Shockwave based games from Yahoo and Shockwave.

I believe I'm looking at an OpenOffice situation to replace Office, I suppose that would be fine and I think would work out (they aren't required to have perfect Word compatibility, its basically type a paper, and print it). For chat we're probably OK too, because something like GAIM would be fine -- Jabber based things would also be cool.

But my real concern is the CD-ROM games and Windows based games. I can't see my 3 year-old putting a CD-ROM into the drive and expecting it to auto-load and run like it does on XP -- without issues -- even with a perfect installation of WINE, hey, maybe I'm wrong, but is there a way to have it work as good as windows?

I've thought about loading up Mandrake and getting WINE working to see if it'll work out, but I'm not sure that I should waste my time, so I thought I'd ask some readers here if they're run into this situation and if I'm just crazy for thinking that this would be the wise thing to do at the expense of my children's computing experience."

Comments

Here's an idea...

[Sebastopol]

Well, since you asked for advice on raising your kids:

Move them off the screen altogether.

Nothing is going to promote the development of bad O/S interfaces more than indoctrinating young children to their quirks and bad design.

Why not encourage books and hands-on creative outlets rather than computer screens? Do you think they really need to learn about computers at age 3 and 7? Maybe the 11 year old, but I shudder to think you would try to teach your kids ANY OS at such a young age.

Let them enjoy life for awhile before they have to deal with an OS.

Re:Here's an idea...

[mrpuffypants]

naa, i started using computers when i was 4 (C64 and sticky bear) and I see mto be a reasonable adult now. sure, all i want to do is work with computers, but simce it's gotten me a good job i can't complain

and at that age I didn't JUST use the computer: my mom still read to me, taught me my ABC's and 123's and by the time i hit kindergarden i was already at a 2nd rgade level.

At that age parents control the computer: let your kids experience it but in moderation and they'll be better for it technologically, but be sure to enrich them too

Re:Here's an idea...

[Cap'n Canuck]

Get your kids into piano lessons.

There's a direct correlation between music ability and mathematical ability (and good grades in general). Plus, you'll strengthen their fingers if your child ever becomes a /. contributer and spends too many hours at a computer keyboard.

Re:Here's an idea...

[dar]

Anybody who has a "computer literate" 3 year old is, more or less, forcing this down the throats of their kids.

You obviously don't have kids. Kids, especially very young kids, want to do what they see their parents doing. And if dad is a geek...

My kids were using computers at three years old - because they wanted to "play" with the mouse and such. True it was a mac. But that only shows how easy macs are to use.

Re:Here's an idea...

[drinkypoo]

Nothing is going to promote the development of bad O/S interfaces more than indoctrinating young children to their quirks and bad design. Why not encourage books and hands-on creative outlets rather than computer screens? Do you think they really need to learn about computers at age 3 and 7? Maybe the 11 year old, but I shudder to think you would try to teach your kids ANY OS at such a young age.

Insightful?

I think not. First of all, books have nothing to do with UI design. There is nothing in a book that you can use in the design of a gui because a computer and a book give a fundamentally different experience at this point. When we are making computers in the form of books, IE with individual pages, then you can start looking to classic paper books for inspiration.

Second of all, creativity expressed through a computer is in no way less valid than creativity expressed through other means. The important issue is to make the computer a part of their life, rather than their entire life. Get them outside, yes. Get them reading books, yes. They should be painting and making messes and cleaning them up, but they should also be using the computer. It is both a wonderful tool for getting work done and a wonderful diversion; the internet (as an extension of computers) likewise.

Let them enjoy life for awhile before they have to deal with an OS.

Dealing with any operating system is like dealing with any other large, complex system. There are rules, sometimes the rules are broken. There are ways around some of the rules which get you in trouble, and some which don't; breaking some rules is harmless, and breaking others produces dire consequences. A child will either be frustrated or challenged, but it won't change what kind of person they are more than your interaction with them, unless they spend more time interacting with it than with you. In which case, the failure is not the computer's fault, it's yours.

Re:Here's an idea...

[Phinn]

Interesting you should say that.

In his book _The Math Gene_, Keith Devlin (The same guy that did the PBS series _Life By the Numbers_) basically says the correlation between music and mathematical ability is because of the finger movements. He bases this on the fact that the part of the brain used to do math is closely related to the part that operates the fingers. Of course, music in itself is highly mathematical, which I'm sure contributes to general math ability as well.

Re:Here's an idea...

[feelsinister]

Taking up a musical instrument is very good for the brain and has proven effects on a child's mental ability because playing a musical instrument helps strengthen the corpus callossum (the thing that connects the brain's two hemispheres), improving communications between the two hemispheres of the brain. In turn, that can help a child communicate more effectively, perform logical tasks easier and generally be a better functioning human being.

Plus, the chicks dig piano. Trust me.

uhmm....

[ivanandre]

If you want something that works AS GOOD AS WINDOWS... then maybe you just should use Windows.
Dont ask for trouble

The best situation...

[Future Linux-Guru]

...is to use both.

Have one PC for the things that they NEED Windows to run, and let them use it only for that. The other should run your free-OS of choice and related software.

As they grow older, teach them the difference, the improvements, and continue curtailing use of the Windows machine until it's just an expensive doorstop.

Very few migrations are successful when done immediatly and cold-turkey. Some are, but they are far and few between---especially when children are involved.

Re:The best situation...

[GospelHead821]

Perhaps even better would be not to wean them off of the Windows computer. After all, there is probably going to come a point when they need to use a Windows only program for some school project and you're going to want them to know how to use it, themselves, without having to go through the rigamarole of teaching them. Develop their experience with both operating systems. It is never a disservice to teach your children more.

Bad timing

[NDPTAL85]

I think that kids of such young ages shouldn't be exposed to the politcal bickering that is involved in an OS choice. Just give them Windows for now like all the other kids, if they're using computers already, and then when they're, say 12 or 13 introduce them to Linux and any other alternative operating systems so that they will be old enough and mature enough to make such a decision on their own.

Its like with religion or politics, really young kids shouldn't just be indoctrinated in one side or the other just because thats what the parents prefer. Let them make their own un-pressured choices. Not to mention starting them off with Linux would probably set them back they'd have to use Wintel PC's at school or over at a friends house.

Re:Bad timing

[aridhol]

You say that kids shouldn't be indoctrinated in one side or the other, but you also say that they should just have Windows on the machine. How about you install multiple OSs and let the kids experience them all. That way they will have their own choice and they will be familiar with multiple environments. They'll know how to adapt to things being in different places, so that next time one of their OSs changes its UI, they'll be able to adapt.

Re:Bad timing

[doc_traig]

Its like with religion or politics, really young kids shouldn't just be indoctrinated in one side or the other just because thats what the parents prefer.

Actually, I disagree. Bring your kids up with what you believe in. When they're young, they'll follow along and soak it up. When they get old enough, they'll start to learn about alternatives and may want to explore them. This is where you as a parent should get out of the way.

- DDT

Re:Bad timing

[LostSinner]

Counter-Point:

it actually might be a fairly successful and worthwhile task to tackle. consider this:

back in the early 1900s and up to the present, though it's less prevalent today, a lot of children who were in american schools had parents who had immigrated from another country and were incapable of speaking english. they quite successfully learned to speak their parents' language at home, and english at school and with friends.

so here's my point: what's wrong with your children using linux/macos/etc. at home and another at school and other friends' houses? revolutions start small, don't they? just think how awesome it would be if your child were at a friend's house and said 'your computer can't do this? well mine can.' maybe it'd make someone else curious.

give credit where credit's due. kids are incredibly resilient (i'm learning this from my daughter as we speak). the more flexible and open you can keep them, even if it's by them using multiple OSes, the better off they'll be.

Re:Bad timing

[croftj]

Who needs political bickering? Kids will learn Windows at school and their friends if they need to. If you choose Linux at home, great if not, well I'm glad I didn't make your choice. It's a choice that's all.

As for politics and religion, they NEED to be taught in the home! At least if you give a shit about your religion and politics! How else will kids learn about your values? Who you are and what you believe? Is it so awfull that my kids learn from me? I have a vested interest in my childrens upbringing and their belief system. Must they learn from people who have no true interest in their future? Give me a break!

Once they grow up, they can make their choices. It may break my heart, but that's another thing. I will still love them and accept their differences. Untill then though, they WILL be taught about who I am, who thier grandparents were etc! What we believe in and think!

Re:Bad timing

[Cryogenes]

Bring your kids up with what you believe in. When they're young, they'll follow along and soak it up.

Absolutely correct. This is the only way religion can survive.

Do you believe in death after life?

Don't force it on them.

[The Turd Report]

If you force it on them, they might decide to not use it at all. Maybe dual boot? If the kids like Linux, just ditch Windows and move on. If not, then they can go back.

Ha! Good luck.

[dasmegabyte]

Kids' software generally isn't the most compatible stuff around -- there's just no reason to test on multiple units or port to multiple OSs due to its limited appeal. In order to get any kid's software to work, you're goign to have to fight like crazy to get them to work under windows emulators. Does this sound like the way to teach kids there's a "better way"...by fighting for hours to get software to run just to save $100 off the cost of a win2k license?

Kids' websites tend to be about the same. I run Opera and Moz at home and when my brother comes to visit we often discover that his favorite sites -- all flash intensive with tons of cool intel/windows only games -- don't work so hot. We have the same problem with my Mac.

As for open office...i'd have to say that it's not as kid friendly as MS office, which is NOT kid friendly at all. No office suite is. I pine for the days of Bank Street Writer.

If your kids are under 12, you're probably going to meet a lot of resistance to your plan. I don't think it's worth it...especially since it's so easy to teach kids WHY linux is good when they're older. Young kids don't understand the value of a dollar nor the importance of freedom and until they do it's silly to force it on them. When they hit high school, then's where you spring your plan -- by getting them their OWN pcs, older machines running Linux, for school use.

No Linux, get an iBook...

[toupsie]

I know, I know, you are going to complain that Mac's are too expensive but the new $999 iBook is a steal (bought one for the mother-in-law), it doesn't crash like windows xp, lets them explore open source software and there is going to be a lot more cool stuff they can do than with a linux box like iMovie -- that will keep them out of your hair for weeks and you don't need a DV camera. Evidently, the kids in Maine are going ape-manure over their iBooks.

As Forst Gump would say...

[jsonmez]

"Maybe it's both..."

Install linux. Install VM-Ware. Create a WINXP VM, and a WIN98 VM. Run the old 98 games on the 98 VM session. Run the new windows stuff on the WINXP VM session. Make backups of both. When they crash etc, just reload the saved state.

Problem solved. And the best part is your kids get to learn about virtual machines.

This episode of Seasame Street was brought to you by the letters 'V' and 'M'. Can you say Virtual Machine little childrens? I knew you could!

Absurd.

[colinramsay]

This is yet another demonstration of someone moving to Linux for the sake of it. You have to reboot four or five times a week?! Well that's five minutes and ten button presses.

You may have incompatibility problems with old games now, but I can assure you that they are nothing compared to the problems you'll have trying to run them through Wine.

And what about when your kids go to school? Unless they attend one in a very small minority they'll be using a different platform and will be behind the other kids.

You want to save money? Don't buy any more games - use the Shockwave resources on the internet. And you'll be fine with XP for another five years at least.

Why are you trying to switch?

[FortKnox]

My kids are aged 11, 7 and 3. All of them are computer savvy. They use the computer for basically three things: Games, writing papers and chatting with friends, as well as browsing sites that are frequented by children their age (Nick, Cartoon Network, How Things Work, Yahoo!Kids, and others).

Lets see, an OS that handles games, writing papers, chatting with friends, and browsing flash-based sites.
Windows does all these well, and very easily. Most of these things require loopholes and extra steps for Linux.

So my question becomes "Why are you switching them to Linux? You already have a good solution for the time being!"

Switching your children over to linux without any "real" reason. Sounds like a troll to me.

Be careful...

[Pyromage]

Here's the problem as I see it: You want them to convert and you want to convert them over.

I think that, as you observed, since some things don't work as well as Windows, you'll have a problem if you try to get them converted.

My suggestion is to ensure that you can set up for them the majority of what they want, and then dual boot.

Make a point of never using XP yourself. Make sure you're seen in front of them running some really slick and attractive WM. With lots of shiney customizable things that can be tinkered with.

When they see you playing with it, they'll be interested. But if you put it in front of them and preach that "Its better! Its cheaper! Its magic sliced bread doohicky!" you won't get anywhere.

Let them have an account that'll let them do as much as possible that they could under XP, and let them tinker with it. They may tire of it, or they may be intrigued.

But either way, I bet you'll wind up with them learning less than if you tried to force them.

Re:rebooting 4 or 5 times a week?

[fzammett]

I don't get all the bitching about Windows stability. I think 95% of the time it's stupid users that don't know how to maintain a system (and I'm not talking about my mom or your uncle Joe either, I mean you supposed computer "experts" out there that can't keep a Win2K box running for more than a day).

My two-year old has his own PC in his room and he plays it for two-three hours a day. I never turn it off, it just runs 24-7 whether he's playing it or not. He has a library of about 30 different games, some DirectX, some Flash, some straight Windows games, even a few DOS-based games. His machine is running Win98 and it's on Dell hardware with an added ATI All-In-Wonder and Sound Blaster 16. Guess what? I can't remember the last time it crashed, froze or otherwise required my intervention (aside from dirty disks from him handling it improperly).

And this is Win98, not even Win2K or XP which are considerably more stable.

I just don't get it. All you Linux experts that can take the time to learn a Unix-based system and administer it well can't keep a Windows box running. Guess what: IT'S NOT THE OS! I grant you the 9x versions are inherently less stable than Win2K or XP, but still, if they are crashing a couple of times a day, I'm fulling willing to say that 95% of the time it's YOUR OWN DAMNED FAULT!

OS isn't the problem

[Apreche]

Contrary to linux belief you aren't crashign because you are using XP. You are crashing because your kids are playing old games. The solution is to get a cheap old computer for like 50 bucks at a garage sale put 98se on it and have your kids play the games on that. Then your XP machine will hardly crash at all.

Your kids will probably hate you for switchign to linux. For all my trying (dont' make fun of me) www.cartoonnetwork.com is completely incompatible with any non-windows OS. You simply can't play cartoon orbit ctoons or gtoons without windows. I even tried a wine/mozilla combo that lied to the website and pretended to be IE. No dice.

Another solution is to get your kids a console gaming system. A new one. They will spend so much time playing that that they will use the pc less and less for those games that crash it and more and more for flash/web based stuff, messenging, and paper writing.

Linux is not your answer. It would be nice if it was, but it isn't.

Fantastic Idea

[thatguywhoiam]

.. and I applaud you (original poster) for it.

I've often thought about how my own computer history affected my computer 'development', if you will. Personally speaking, my history is this:

- Osbourne (age 6-8)
- Commodore 64 (age 9-13)
- Commodore Amiga (age 13-17)
- and various Macs since.

I have a point here, stay with me. The earliest machines, the Osbourne and C64, had no GUI to speak of. If you really liked computers, and were technically inclined, you still had to dance circles to get the stupid C64 to do anything impressive. You had to learn the quirks, watching the behaviour of the disk drive LED (anyone remember that constant flashing red light? that meant BAD). In short, you had to really know what you were doing.

Amigas, too, just by virtue of the fact that it was the BeBox of the 80s. No support = gotta be resourceful.

If you could make those old computers do what you wanted to, consistently, then you basically had passed your trial-by-fire. You were a geek. More importantly, you were a geek that knew why computers act a certain way. The kicker is that you would really fly if given a computer that was half-capable. So, in moving your kids to Linux, you have an interesting experiment before you. If your kids are technically inclined, it might be one of the bigger favours you could do for their education. If not, however, I suggest you move them back - at least to a GUI - after a certain period of time. Some kids are nerds, some aren't. It's stupid to force a non-nerdy kid to compile stuff. If that kid happens to enjoy tinkering... you've opened up a whole new world, and possibly career, down the line.

As if you geniuses couldn't figure this out...

[fzammett]

If your going to run a Windows system for your kids, buy yourself a copy of Ghost. I've only had to use it once on my two-year old's machine over the past six months (STILL not sure how he managed to delete the files he deleted to make the OS not boot!), but it will make your life a lot more pleasent.

why, why, why?

[Gizzmonic]

If you already own Windows XP and 98, and your kids are having problems with running games designed for 98, just wipe out XP and put 98 back. Installing Linux isn't gonna solve that problem.

I've noticed a lot of people saying "Well, I put Linux on my mom's computer," and now someone wants to make their kids use Linux?

Your kids might grow up to be great sysadmins if you do that. But if they're aren't computer lovers, your kids will just end up having an adversarial relationship with computers, and another generation of technophobes will be born.

While it's true that kids are flexible, and won't have much trouble figuring out the differences between the Windows or Mac they use at school and the Linux box at home, cutting your kids off from games, homework assignments, etc just because you like Linux so much is a bit of a rash decision. Don't you want the best for them?

Re:rebooting 4 or 5 times a week?

[GrayCalx]

Wow, that seemed a little angry, but I for the most part agree with you. I have an XP machine, that only hung when i was overclocking, and a 2k machine thats been running IIS/SQL Server for over a month without a crash (to be honest I don't think its ever crashed, i usually turn it off eventually due to a reboot or whatever).

At the same time, I take very good care of my machines. I keep them clean, make sure no rouge software is found on them, etc. Now maybe this is more time than some people are willing to put in, at the same time I've spent a good couple of hours trying to install Linux without stable success.

Now to the kids topic... i think a Mac OS is a good idea if you refuse to use Windows anymore. Their older software might not run (though i think it might under powerpc or whatever) and I know that Mac OS is a very user-friendly OS.

slackware, hold the X!

[w1r3sp33d]

you could load those games that don't require x like hangman, they might actually learn something! as an additional bonus as long as you run linx browser (text only) there is little need for porn filters (you might end up learning how to explain some dirty words, but no pics!) why do we think we need graphics to keep kids interested? I lost entire summers to my c64 programing I think it was a matter of challenge and interest. I won't presume this is THE answer, but why not run two boxes one like this for them to learn on, and a windows box for supervised time?

Been There, Done That

[chill]

I've got my kids running Linux (Red Hat 8) on laptops (ages 12, 12, 14) for both school and home.

OpenOffice works fine for all their school work, and they connect fine to the school's wireless LAN. They can connect to the shared drive in school to save work, thanks to Samba.

However, web sites are a different matter. Linux doesn't do Director so they all were pissed about not being able to do much with Nick.com, Disney.com, CartoonNetwork.com, etc. until I got them all CrossOver Plugin and installed the Shockwave Director plugins.

Fortunately RealPlayer, Xine and MPlayer are good enough for playing all media content. This will be 100% true when Mplayer makes the latest install easier and handle Quicktime Sorensen better.

Re:Been There, Done That

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe there's something wrong with me, and I grew up way too fast, but at age 12 I wanted NOTHING to do with the brain-dead, mind-numbing, drool-inducing crap that Disney & Nick try to foist upon children as entertainment. IIRC, at that age I was trading warez, getting arrested for arson & losing my virginity. (just what every father likes to think about, eh?)

Of course, based on what you said (3 kids with laptops, all going to a school w/ a wireless lan), they're probably fairly sheltered, way-upper-middle-class kids going to a very nice private school, where it's very unlikely that their friends have mothers are drug-addicted, abused, welfare moms and don't know their daddies. ...not that I'm at all bitter about my childhood, spent rotting here in the asshole of suburbia, surrounded by kids that were never really going to amount to much.

Which version?

[yerricde]

then maybe you just should use Windows.

What version? OP wants something as stable in general as Windows XP but which runs older games as well as Windows 98 did.

Step by Step

[archnerd]

First let me give you some background on my technological upbringing.

I was born in 1985. My father was a salesman for Sun, which was still a private company at the time. We got our first PC when I was 2 years old, running MS-DOS with 1MB of memory. As soon as I learned to read, my mother bought me a book on QBASIC and taught it to me during the summer after kindergarten. On my own initiative, I learned a few other languages, namely C. In '99, I got my own computer, running 98SE. A few months later, a friend at the place I volunteer evangelized me with Linux and I immediately set aside half my drive and installed SuSE. Today, I have my entire drive dedicated to LFS.

In retrospect, I never would have had the patience to learn Linux if I hadn't known a programming language. By learning to program, you learn how pieces of the system interact with one another. You learn the concept of directory structure. You learn the boundary between a program and the operating system. You learn why things crash. You learn why programs written for one operating system won't run on another.

So, if you want your kids to adapt to Linux, teach them to program - preferably a compiled language, but even QBASIC is fine. Once they've been programming for a few months, they'll learn all the skills they need in order to adapt to any piece of software you throw at them. They'll understand why you can't run Linux and pop in a Halflife CD and have it run. This, combined with some by-the-book indoctrination into open source, should be all they need.

Re:Ha! Good luck.

[Anonymous Coward]

save $100 off the cost of a win2k license

Dabs.com asks GBP 269.07 (plus carriage) for Windows 2000 and either GBP 163.32 (limited "home" edition) or GBP 231.47 ("professional" edition) for Windows XP. This compares with under GBP 10 for a set of binary CDs from almost any such vendor. The difference is rather more than USD 100. And you'll need to pay this for every PC that may at some time run Windows.

all flash intensive with tons of cool intel/windows only games

Flash works fine with Mozilla 1.2a/1.2b. (It may not work with Mozilla 1.1a.) Java, on the other hand, does not (at least not with Mozilla compiled with GCC 3.0 or later).

When they hit high school, then's where you spring your plan -- by getting them their OWN pcs, older machines running Linux, for school use.

Isn't that a bit late? By then, change may be difficult or impossible once they are indoctrinated into the "Windows way".

Perhaps a better idea would be to seek out and/or create suitable software on GNU/Linux (or, even better, portable to most current platforms). There is a small amount in the Free Software Directory.

Re:Math quiz

[Qrlx]

I'm not sure of the mathematical words for the proof, but it goes like this:

Hmmm... the ages of the kids can be expressed as x, x+4, and x+8.

For x greater than 3:

x+4 mod 3 = x+1 mod 3
X+8 mod 3 = x+2 mod 3

Clearly, it's impossible for x, x+1, and x+2 to all NOT be divisible by three... The only way that x, x+4, and x+8 can all be prime is when x=3, which is kinda the "trivial" case.

There's no way to avoid hitting a multiple of three somewhere along the way.

Best kid's software

[Jeffrey Baker]

When I was four years old I got a Commodore 64 with a tape drive, a modem, a programming manual, and NO software. Best computer I could possibly have hoped for.

The best computer you can give to your kids is one that powers on, boots, and doesn't do much else. Kids are really, really smart.

Why are you rebooting so often?

[Junks Jerzey]

I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week

This smacks of an installation problem, or something specific to your hardware. With Windows 2000 and Windows XP I've never had trouble like this. It's rock solid. I'd check all the usual culprits first, like video card drivers.

You might also consider turning off your computer at night and when the kids are at school, etc. With the amount of power a modern PC uses, it's always a win to turn it off when you're not using it for an extended period. (This used to be a point of debate, but no longer.)

Whatever happend too..

[Izeickl]

Turning a machine off after you have used it? Not to sound too much like a tree hugger, but I dont see why non essential computers are left on 24/7, is 2mins really too long to wait booting up? Even just turning off the machine when you go to bed saves a bit of money/power until the morning. Over time it all adds up. I'm rebooting this machine probably four and five times a week

Re:The author fascinates me

[mangu]

Why press button A and button B to roll down your window

A friend of mine had an accident which is a perfect answer to your question. His car fell into a reservoir. Water pressure from the outside was so strong he couldn't open the door. The water shorted his electric system and the windows stopped working.

He's a lucky guy. The water was shallow enough, so his car hit bottom before he drowned. Eventually, someone came and broke one of his windows with a stone.

Power windows are just like GUIs. People who have them feel superior to people who don't have them. But GUIs, just like power windows, stop working in conditions where hand cranks and consoles may save your life.

Don't do it telecaster.

[Gray]

Seriously. It'd be like being a kid with parents don't believe in sugar. Do the little tikes really need to be indoctrinated so soon?

The perfect kid rig is the newest version of IE, newest version of every macromedia plug-in and a tray full of closed source IM clients. Anything else is losing functionality.

Don't worry, they're just about old enough to start their first warez server and we all know the dirty open source road that leads down.

Console vs. Computer

[ebooher]

Ok, call me crazy here. Heck, call me eccentric if it makes you feel better. But I don't believe a computer is a good medium on which to give a child games to play.

Consoles are infinitely better for game playing. There are no IRQ conflicts, or resolution errors, or sound card inquiry mishaps. If you own a GameCube, and you buy a GameCube game it typically works, period.

A computer, IMHO, is for work. Writing reports and documentation. Setting up internal PBX systems. Placing more cannon fodder in the path for the OS religious.

With consoles having more and more power with each revision, many are not far behind stand alone PC systems anyway. Also, with systems like the Xbox which are fundamentally a computer system in a box regulated to a specific duty, great amounts of "Only a computer can hope to push the graphics for this copy of 'Quaking under my Halo while my Doomed Sole of Unreal Boots Made for Walking in the Sunshine Part 700'" are being ported to the consoles with the same amount of gameplay as their PC counterparts.

Personally, call me an old fuddy duddy, but I don't think I have a single game installed on any computer I own currently. I do however own a GameCube, Xbox, and PlayStation 2 to get my gaming fix.

Kids really appreciate the "drop it in, push the button, play the game" aspect of consoles as well. If you want your kids to learn Linux. Then give them Linux, and don't worry about any of the games. Just place a console next to it and let them have Mario.

As always, this is just my two cents. No one who knows me is likely to agree with me.

Worked for me.

[twitter]

...is to use both.

That is the way. Never take away functionality before you have replaced it. Web browsing works better under Linux now than it does under Windows so you can kill that first. Games and all that can stay with the old doze machine, but you would be amazed at how much more stable windoze is when you don't let it see the internet. Rebuild the old box one more time and then let it die as it will. Then you can take your time learning how to do things in Linux like singing dancing and games.

This is how I got myself and my wife off Windoze. We have one windoze computer left and it's blind to the netword. We boot it every now and then to write CDs. We don't miss it, and it's lasted longer than any other windoze PC I've ever built. When we install something and that program breaks another, the blame is clear cut. My computers are stable and do the things we want. You don't need M$ only services.

Kids have few problems w/Linux

[alue]

In my experience, very young people typically have few problems learning to use Linux, because they often aren't accustomed to using something else.

I didn't really start using a computer until my freshman year at college; I started out using Windows 98. The following summer I installed Red Hat 6.2, and I ended up using it full time w/few complaints. Interestingly, all my friends who thought the change was "pretty hardcore" had all grown up using Windows. Since I had really nothing to switch from, the transition was pretty easy.

Since your children are all relatively young, I don't imagine Windows is the only language they'll ever be able to speak, so by all means let them use Linux while it's easy for them. If you want them to play their old games, then run a dual-boot until they outgrow that software, and just stop buying new versions of Windows!

Re:My bro has it and it'a a pain

[billd]

That is the first on topic post so far. Well done. The guy was asking about "how suitable is Linux for your kids", not "if you should let your kids near computers".

Anyhow,... I have 2 decent games boxes for my kids running windows, but I've also provided both vnc and shell (PuTTY) interfaces to my server and I'm encouraging my son (the girls just are NOT interested at this stage) to explore. Little progress so far, but he's at least poked around a bit.

Linux milestones

[Merle Corey]

I'm not sure which is funnier - the troll of an original question ("I want Windows, only not") or the volley of "Keep using Windows" advice that followed.

You want to know why MS has a monopoly? You want to know why Linux isn't ready for primetime? Go back and read over the responses here. Even the most gung-ho Linux responses amounted to "This will be broken, these other things will require a lot of fiddling, some things may work, more or less, out of the box, and your children will be social outcasts because they don't use the same OS as everyone else."

Maybe our next milestone should be to make Linux kid friendly, where "kid" is NOT someone capable of recompiling and tweaking source code. A free alternative is a lot less compelling when it doesn't work as well as the paid options, and technical superiority amounts to a hill of beans when Linux is a painful experience for normal families.

Meanwhile, chalk me up on the "Keep using Windows" side. It's not exactly a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," but Windows is probably less broken than Linux in this situation.

MC

I've thought of this myself

[rlangis]

...and considered the whys and why-nots extensively.

Why? Basically for one, and only one reason: Easier to administer on MY end. I can create a user account for them and then they can bang on the box all day long without me worrying about them fucking something up. The most they could mess with is stuff in ${HOME}. Not like they have a whole lot of critical data at age 8.

Why not? Games. Because honestly, at the age that my kids are at, that is pretty much what they use the computer(s) for. Will most of those games run under Wine? Yeah, probably. But that is going to be a real pain in the arse, and my one and only heading under Why is for ease of administration. And when you start mucking with Wine, that goes out the window (no pun intended). Not to mention that games don't autorun (as mentioned previously), and in general things just won't work like they are used to.

So, my next option is to just create a Ghost image with a minimal win98 install, some of thier favorite games pre-installed, and just re-image every few months when they screw up the system so much that it won't boot properly.

And don't give them write access to the pr0n directory on the fileserver. That's an important part.

Re:Ha! Good luck.

[dasmegabyte]

Kid friendly software is not a "straw man." It's just that adults misunderstand what a kid needs to learn software.

It's not big, pleasant buttons that make a software package kid friendly. It's familiar terms and words. When a kid wants to write a book report on dolphins, it does no good to present them with the option to create a new template, "legal preceding" or fax. When they want to see what something looks like, offering them an outline or master view doesn't help them. Furthermore, children think VERY linearly...programs that reformat their work based on paragraph settings after they've already typed it and tried to change the stats further down the page are just confusing.

Incidentally, these are all signs of bad programs for adults, too.

Let Them Decide

[Dankling]

In my opinion, forcing them onto Linux is just the wrong way to go. You need to keep them open to Windows and Linux.

I think its amazing that some /. parentals have been doing things like taking away internet if they boot windoze. Let the kids use Windows for now, because we all know that they have no use nor the care about the litlle insignificant problems that are in Windows.

Their kids, so you should let them be kids.

My Experience with Kid + Linux.

[sbaker]

My 11yr old son has never used Windoze at home (I stopped using M$ products
back in the era of Win 3.0.)

Executive Summary:

* CD-ROM Games - forget it. There are home-grown games
but they are rarely of commercial quality. WINE doesn't
do DirectX - so unless you are prepared to pay for WINE-X
you can't play Windoze games - period. Even Wine-X won't
play more than a handful of Windoze games well.

* Online Games/Flash/Shockwave - no problem. Use Mozilla.

* For *everything* else - Linux is better than Windoze..and
it happens to be free.

Conclusion:

Buy them a GameCube for games - keep the PC for serious
stuff. I don't think that's a bad idea anyway - while they
are doing homework, there is no temptation to take time out
for a game - and that's "A Good Thing".

Re:Programming

[lostchicken]

While that may have been posted to be funny, you are really just proving my point. A lot of people would use copy and paste for this project, but this is still not really using the computer for its purpose. You are still doing the work, just manually copying your original work. The only thing that seperates computer "gurus" from the rest is this mindset.

I am a human. I am not well suited to doing simple things to data more than once. I am using a computer, a device that is.