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Journal of Applied Physics, NASA, and the Hydrino

Erik Baard writes "I wanted to bring you the last on a story that was slashdotted in June: NASA's investigation of the 'hydrino' rocket. In June I reported for wired.com that the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts was funding a six-month study of rockets propeled by plasmas created by BlackLight Power Inc. The company claims that energy is released when it shrinks hydrogen atoms, bringing the electron closer into its nucleus than thought possible. Here's the scoop: the researcher told NASA that *something* was indeed generating plasmas with more kinetic energy than would be expected for the power input. And the kicker is that BlackLight founder Randell Mills scored a paper about his plasmas in the mainstream Journal of Applied Physics -- after a few years of following this bizarre startup, that floored me." Here's the Village Voice story with these updates.

108 of 247 comments (clear)

  1. Oh no! It IS possible! by Goalie_Ca · · Score: 3, Funny

    Better recalculate those schrodinger equations. Lets add more variables this time :D

    --

    ----
    Go canucks, habs, and sens!
    1. Re:Oh no! It IS possible! by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      "Better recalculate those schrodinger equations."

      Just so long as it doesn't involve reaching into any more alphabets. I've had my fill with Greek and Cyrillic. My TI-92+ just doesn't have enough buttons.

  2. Re:Suggestion by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 4, Funny

    They should add a new line to the Slashdot FAQ: "You should only read this site if you payed attention in science class." ...and if you paid attention in English class.

    --
    evil adrian
  3. Should be lots of skepticm by dagg · · Score: 5, Funny
    There are many reasons to be skeptical of this project:
    • The company is named "Blacklight Power".
    • The guy looks funny in that lab jacket.
    • Most of the scientific community finds these theories "crackpot ideas".
    • He's raised 30 million dollars.

    --No money raised for this...

    --
    Sex - Find It
    1. Re:Should be lots of skepticm by Guppy06 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      • "The company is named "Blacklight Power""
        • All the really cool names like "Lockheed-Martin" are already taken.
        • If you weren't spending money on start-ups with silly names several decades ago, you would have missed the opportunity to invest in General Atomics.
      • The guy looks funny in that lab jacket.
        • It's the guys that don't look funny in a lab jacket that worry me.
      • "Most of the scientific community finds these theories "crackpot ideas"."
        • So? We should all be more concerned with what the scientific method has to say about his ideas, not the "community."
        • If we don't, we'd be no better than the Catholics who locked up Galileo.

      "He's raised 30 million dollars."

      • 99.99% of which did not come from Slashdot users.
        • If we're not monetarily involved, what's wrong with a little cheerleading?


    2. Re:Should be lots of skepticm by MonkeyBoyo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      From looking at the references I would say that Blacklight is (in rough descending order of likelyhood):
      Crackpots
      Charlatans
      "Winging Scientists"*
      "Mislead Scientists"*
      Really onto something.
      *(By "a Winging Scientist" I mean someone who has trouble understanding some work done by other scientists and assumes that they are just making up things. Thus a "winger" feels justified in making up thing to sound impressive.)
      *(By a "Mislead Scientist" I mean decent people like Pons and Flieshman in their pursuit of cold fusion).

      And if you think he looks funny, have a look at all of the coporate officers at http://www.blacklightpower.com/management.shtml
      I could see them as pastors at a fundamentalist church involved in snakehandleing but I wouldn't want have them in company I was involved with.
    3. Re:Should be lots of skepticm by kmellis · · Score: 3, Funny
      "He's raised 30 million dollars." 99.99% of which did not come from Slashdot users.
      All right. Fess up. Who gave this guy 3,000 dollars?
    4. Re:Should be lots of skepticm by soulsteal · · Score: 2

      Sure wasn't me.

      I'm so poor I can't afford to pay attent....

      OOOOOOO SHINY!

  4. reputed journal... Maybe.... by Papa+Legba · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would take the publishing of a science paper these days with a grain of salt. The register just did some ground breaking reporting in this area for another company like this and found out that the state of peer review at most of these mags is poor at best.

    As long as it sounds plausible then it gets published. Stringing enough buzz words together usually does the trick. Unfortunatly the science mags have gone the same way as the game review mags. Don't make waves or you don't get content and loose readership and advertising dollars.

    Read the whole article at the Register

    --
    Papa Legba come and open the gate
    1. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      "As long as it sounds plausible then it gets published. Stringing enough buzz words together usually does the trick."

      If only that problem were limited to science mags.

      Excuse me while I go utilize a paradigm shift while thinking outside the box. That will surely decrease my TCO.

    2. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by Rothfuss · · Score: 5, Funny

      Blah blah blah...

      You, an uncredentialed /.er who goes by the name Pap Legba, have just dismissed the peer review process of scientific journals, comparing "science mags" to "game review mags."

      I considered arguing your pseudo-point, perhaps suggesting that you read the actual journal article, which you might find to be intelligent and thorough, and to provide sufficient information to duplicate the experiment in your own lab, which is expected in peer review journals.

      I also considered mentioning that the people that review these articles, although quite busy, are well versed in their respective fields.

      But that would only serve to validate your ridiculous point.

      So instead I will directly attack your apparent lack of intelligence.

      You are an idiot.

      -Rothfuss

    3. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by adminispheroid · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Since I've been in the position of peer reviewing similar journals, I have some sympathy for people who let through results that are obviously wrong. Here's why: with a result that's based on an experiment, nobody expects the reviewer to go repeat the experiment. If somebody writes a paper that clearly describes an experiment, says they checked everything they should have checked and made all the calculations they should have, and comes up with a "surprising" result, it'll get published. And if you think about it, this is how it should be. If other people repeat the experiment and get the same answer, then it's right. And if everybody else gets a different answer, then we all know the original author is an ass.

      I don't fault the journal for publishing this trash, but I certainly fault NASA for funding it.

    4. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by MarkusQ · · Score: 3, Funny

      You, an uncredentialed /.er who goes by the name Pap Legba, have just dismissed the peer review process of scientific journals, comparing "science mags" to "game review mags."

      Uh, just to clarify: we aren't talking about a scientific journal here. The original article explicitly stated that it was the "Journal of Applied Physics."

      -- MarkusQ

    5. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by fermion · · Score: 5, Informative
      I must slightly disagree with your statement. For science to be healthy, all research, in all journals, at all times, should be taken with a grain of salt. There is nothing ground breaking about fraud in science. It happens, and will continue to happen. Science is very complex, and any single paper, like any single data point, is nothing more than a guess. In this case, we have an anomaly, a hypothesis, and some research. Time will tell if this hypothesis is correct, or if the anomaly is real.

      In fact the validity of a paper is only determined after years of careful work to reproduce, understand, define the range, and provide a complete theoretical basis for the work. This was very pleasantly explained in Kim Stanley Robinson's Antarctica. The importance for patience was shown recently with the AT&T Jan Hendrik Schön fraud scandal among others. Most of the damage in these cases are caused by the treatment of science as a religion that provides instant truths, rather than a process that occasionally provides useful answers.

      It amazes me the number of people of people who equate 'published in a peer reviewed journal' with 'stamp of truth'. This mistake is often made in the 'health sciences' sector in which firms routinely create products based on single peer review studies and then abuse the findings of those studies to market the products.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    6. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by Rothfuss · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What the hell are you talking about?

      Journal of Applied Physics

      That is indeed a refereed scientific journal, sponsored by the American Institute of Physics.

      Perhaps you were merely being sarcastic and implying that JAP isn't a top tier journal. If so, remember to use your _SARCASM_ JAP rocks _/SARCASM_ tags or italicize something.

      -Rothfuss

    7. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by Jerry · · Score: 2
      Excellent points!


      NOVA presented a program several years ago called "Do Scientists Cheat?". In it, the NSF study mentioned reported that 48% of the reports published had false or misleading data. I.E., the data was cooked in some way.


      However, there are lots of examples of bad science, the most prominent being "Cold Fusion". A similar work was presented by Fran De Aquino, a scientist who has worked at Las Alamos, and has "published" an experiment on the Internet which supposedly demonstrated an anti-gravity device. http://www.elo.com.br/~deaquino/
      Here is a popularization of his idea: http://members.aol.com/jnaudin509/systemg/
      No one has been able to reproduce his results.


      Then we have the two French brothers recently mentioned on /.


      Science is in such disarray right now.

      --

      Running with Linux for over 20 years!

    8. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by mesocyclone · · Score: 2

      I don't know if you were even old enough to read when the Cold Fusion fiasco started...

      The (Pons and Fleishmann) paper that got all the attention, and got the whole sorry thing going, was peer reviewed in a reputable scientific journal. The authors were well respected scientists in their field.

      Sadly, it was clear if you looked at the math carefully, that the claims of excess energy were derived by dividing by a small difference of large quanitities (generally a no-no) which were not measured accurately.

      A lot of people spent a lot of time as a result of this paper, doing elaborate experiments and spending bundles of money (including government funds) and found no confirmation, although a lot
      was learned about how NOT to do electrochemical calorimetry!

      Also during this time lots of peer reviewed journals published contradictory elaborate theories by genuine theoretical physicists that "explained" how the cold fusion might be working (although there was, in fact, no experimental evidence of cold fusion).

      Yes, the scientific process works, and peer review is a critical part of it, BUT... it doesn't always work on the first publishing of a paper!

      Oh, btw, there is still a journal of cold fusion. It is published by a guy who also writes editorials about all sorts of other junk science (in a ham radio magazine that he also owns).

      --

      The only good weather is bad weather.

    9. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by Spamalamadingdong · · Score: 2
      I'm amazed that this has happened. I too had written off Blacklight years ago as being just another joke. We'll see.
      I still do. It usually takes about 20 years for something to progress from proven scientific discovery to engineered product, and this discovery is at least worth a Nobel prize. In other words, if these people had a real discovery they would have a million bucks as seed capital for their business. I don't recall seeing "Nobel Laureate" after any of their names, do you?

      I doubt that the police agencies will find this outfit to be a joke; I think they'll call it criminal fraud.

    10. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 2

      On the other hand, there are definate failures of peer-review. I am a co-author on a paper that refuted another paper. The original paper should never have passed peer review. The most egregious error was that the energy of a collision was underestimated by something like 12 orders of magnitude. It appears that the error was both arithmetic (failure to convert all quantities to SI units before multiplying) and physical (failure to account for gravitational potential energy.)

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    11. Re:reputed journal... Maybe.... by Darby · · Score: 2

      . It usually takes about 20 years for something to progress from proven scientific discovery to engineered product, and this discovery is at least worth a Nobel prize. In other words, if these people had a real discovery they would have a million bucks as seed capital for their business. I don't recall seeing "Nobel Laureate" after any of their names, do you?

      Not to defend these people, but Nobel prizes aren't necessarily awarded before a significant amount of time goes by. A good example is Einstein. He is generally remembered for his Theories of Relativity. He did get a Nobel prize, but it was for the photoelectric affect, rather than for Special or General Relativity. Relativity was too new and "crackpot" at the time.

  5. Unfair comment by soramimicake · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From the article:
    "The proof is in the hydrino pudding. The question is, when are you going to have desktop hydrino pudding?"
    Regardless of the validity of the research, this comment sounds unfair to me. You can say the same about nuclear fusion, which is also being researched for a long time. When are we going to have desktop nuclear fusion?
    1. Re:Unfair comment by ParallelJoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We have nuclear fusion. It's that bright ball in the sky during the day. Or the H-Bombs that hopefully will never be used against people. The physics of fusion are well understood. It is only the application that is proving difficult.

    2. Re:Unfair comment by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2
      "The proof is in the hydrino pudding. The question is, when are you going to have desktop hydrino pudding?"
      Maybe Dalton wasn't wrong...
    3. Re:Unfair comment by Winged+Cat · · Score: 2

      Didn't someone come out with a desktop nuclear fusion model a couple years ago? Still took more energy than it produced, but at least some experiments could be run a lot more cheaply.

  6. To control plasma by FosterSJC · · Score: 2, Informative

    See this slashdot thread for a complementary project working on the other half of the technology necessary to yield plasma-powered rockets. Plasma, essentially the fourth state of matter, is VERY hot and cannot be contained by normal means. A magnetic field, ostensibly impervious to temperature, is thought to be the way to contain the plasma and direct it. There is nothing really new here, except that this scientist is using a novel way to try to create this high energy plasma: the hydrino. Good luck to him... but I am also somewhat skeptical. He seems to be too much venture-capitalist, not enough scientist.

    1. Re:To control plasma by axxackall · · Score: 2
      Physics is irrelevant for venture-capitalistsIt doesn't matter will the thing fly or not - it is much more important to get some funding, part of which is very essential for personal bonuses and loans.

      The time of Internet bubles is over. The time of bubles is not over yet.

      --

      Less is more !
  7. Different Angle: by l33t-gu3lph1t3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nasa OK'd the physics, and made sure that the scientists weren't fudging the data. Great, and too bad all this company has right now is "abnormally energetic plasma". So far we have an unexplained phenomenon. Genereally, unexplained phenomena get researched by scientists for years *before* a company and patents are formed, ne? Something stinks here, but I don't think it's a scam. It's mostly the smell of optimism ^+_+^ Who other than me predicts a "yeah, well, it's kind of like that antigravity effect - it happened, but no one can explain it or use it" type of situation arising from this research?

    --
    ------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
    1. Re:Different Angle: by Fnkmaster · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And what was that about Occam's razor? Is it not possible there are explanations for the observed phenomenon here (abnormal energy levels in plasmas) than "hydrinos" that fly in the face of very well established theories that (in their relevant domain and length scales) have been proved accurate in thousands of experiments in the past (E&M, basic QM principles)? I'm not saying that these formulae are absolute doctrine and cannot be refuted - by definition all science must be disprovable, or it's not science at all. But until there was not only evidence of abnormal phenomena, but also no other reasonable explanation posited by the scientific community AND several years of proven replication of the experiment AND similar experiments designed to test the "hydrino" hypothesis via other mechanisms, well, I wouldn't accept the otherwise quite outrageous claims.

  8. subtract JAP publications by Raiford · · Score: 5, Informative
    Having a paper accepted in the Journal of Applied Physics is no great feat. JAP is not considered as one of the more scholarly physics journals and often times publication in JAP translates to "you couldn't get the work published anywhere else." Folks who regularly publich in Phys. Rev or Phil Mag tend to look down on JAP publications.

    --
    "player 4 hit player 1 with 0 stroms"
    1. Re:subtract JAP publications by Idarubicin · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Having a quick look at impact factors (IF) for a few journals, I was surprised to note that papers in JAP (IF ~2.2) are more likely to be cited (taken collectively) than papers in any of Phil. Mag. A, B, or Lett. (IF 1.8, 1.2, and 1.5, respectively.) IF should never be used by itself to measure the quality or importance of a journal.

      Still, if you're purely interested in getting cited (for good or bad) JAP is a better bet. Now, some of those citations may be self-referential, and some may be refutations. Really, though, they're all third-tier journals. Phys. Rev. Lett. is definitely more prestigious, based on reputation and IF (6.46). I would lump it in loosely with the second-tier journals. The top-tier journals (for physics discoveries) are almost universally considered to be Science (IF 23.9) and Nature (IF 25.8). These last two are in a class by themselves.

      So what's the point of all this? Usually there is some correlation between the scientific importance of an article and the level of journal in which it is published. I have published a paper in a third-tier journal. It was good science and solid data, but not a particularly important result. I was happy with that--people in my field could find it and appreciate it, and I wasn't wasting too many people's time with something rather obscure.

      Any author will prefer a paper in Nature to a paper in a journal from one of the lower tiers. Shrinking hydrogen atoms has just the sort of gee-whiz factor appeal that journals (and their readers) love. Further, it suggests a new realm of science. Consequently, if the author in question had solid supporting data then he would have a paper in Nature right now. You need three things for a top-flight journal article: an interesting topic, an interesting result, and rock-solid data. He's got the first two. To quote Carl Sagan:

      "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

      Looks like that (admittedly and appropriately high) bar has not been passed.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    2. Re:subtract JAP publications by Raiford · · Score: 2
      Just like anyone else that has worked as a researcher for any length of time, I have had a few papers (mostly co-authored) end up on library shelves that I was not completely happy with. However how many of those ultr-hyper productive scientists our there with 300+ publications wouldn't loose quite a few if really strained through the bullshit filter. Scientific publication and peer-review is a good old boy network and I have seen a lot of real crap end up in print just because of Dr. I M Wunderkindwellfunded was tacked on as last author.

      You are right JAP is not the worst but the real seminal work usually is not found there.

      --
      "player 4 hit player 1 with 0 stroms"
  9. Re:blp by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 2

    yes it will. It will probably be invalidated based on hte so called "best mode" requirement.

  10. Re:Suggestion by mz001b · · Score: 5, Funny

    payed is a perfectly cromulent word.

  11. Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by Dougthebug · · Score: 2, Informative

    From the link, "Randell Mills has pledged for a decade to spark a revolution in physics that will not only overturn much of the atomic science that been taught and rewarded since the early 20th century, but will also provide a source of clean and nearly limitless energy."

    Saddly, If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is...

    1. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by StarHeart · · Score: 5, Informative

      "How come we can get over 200 completely unique elements..."

      Where do people get this crap? I have recently run into this belief with some coworkers. They also seemed to believe there were over 200 elements. There are around 112-118 elements. After around 92 they are man made. Somewhere around 110 they are only last few a split second and are only seen indirectly by their decay. Do yourself a favor and look at a recent periodic chart, or even just do a google search.

      --
      Havoc Penington, the bane of my Linux desktop.
    2. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by pVoid · · Score: 2
      Except we need a revolution in atomic science to make sense of things. How come we can get over 200 completely unique elements with nothing more than three different subatomic particles? And while you're at it, how come they can form molecules that have nothing in common with any of the parent elements?

      Please mod this guy as funny.

      Have you noticed how computers only have 1s and 0s. And yet you can have software that is as different as Windows and Linux?

      (Quantum Chemistry, and molecular chemistry is very very well understood right now. Everything, from why most life is likely carbon based (as opposed to silicate based like in Aliens) to why cyanide kills us humans is provable given very 'simple' quantum assumption/rules. Sure, the schroedinger equation might be hard to solve. But it's been solved, and the answers have been used...)

    3. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by autopr0n · · Score: 2

      Except we need a revolution in atomic science to make sense of things. How come we can get over 200 completely unique elements with nothing more than three different subatomic particles? And while you're at it, how come they can form molecules that have nothing in common with any of the parent elements?

      No, what we need is for you to read a damn book.

      --
      autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    4. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by sabinm · · Score: 2

      I find several things disturbing:

      1. This scientist (of whom I shamefully have no previous knowlege) has come up with a paper that meets the strict criteria of the JAP. Here is the rub: why not let him publish before condemnation?

      2. This Poster (sorry, didn't notice the name) has come up with a provocative and insightful (if not wholly accurate) concept that raises important fundamental questions that *WE* only know because of those who worked before us.

      3. Many things in science have no *clear* answer. Like, for instance, the fact that the octet rule can be broken and a valence shell can have *more* than eight electrons (go figure) like that fact that there is no *definite* molecular conformation (and probably many others that we cannot perceive) because the truth is that quantum theory works except in those cases where it *doesn't_work*, the idea that our math does not fit .0000001 percent of the time makes it either A. Incorrect B. Primitive. Or simply that the Universe exists in by it's own rules and conforms to simply *what works*.

      These are all well known facts. They are fundamental questions that need intelligent answers for those who are prepared, and encouragement for those who are still grasping simple concepts.

      Too often we forget our own humble beginnings and seek to blast the intelligence of others in order to make ourselves look important. The truth is, you become less important the more you quash those who inquire for the sake of discovery

      --
      http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
    5. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by fenix+down · · Score: 2

      A big loud "Whaaaaaaaa?" for you.

      Complicated shit is made out of simpler shit. It's not hard. You only have 26 letters in your post! Holy crap! There's no way you could have conveyed that much (admittedly not too good) information with only 26 letters! "Stupid" has an "I" in it. Well, clearly I must be stupid because there's no way a word could have a different meaning than the parts it's made up of. I could explain without the condecending metaphors, but other people have done it and I really don't know where I should start with you.

      You mention zero-point energy. Does your understanding of that phenomenon have something to do with your belief in the existence of ether? (I just realized that was you back up a few posts) Quantum foam and shit like that is hardly the same thing as a gas for light waves to "wave" through. It's shit in space, but it's a hell of a lot more complicated kind of shit than ether was. Plus, it doesn't have anything to do with light AFAIK. As for harnessing it, I think somebody found a problem with using the Casimir effect to get any kind of serious energy. Maybe it was just that we'd have to build plates so fucking huge that the ammount of energy we'd get would be useless by the time we got the capability to build them, but I think there was a theoretical problem too. I don't remember enough details to say anything useful about it, but I'm sure I saw something like that somewhere.

      Still, it's an interesting concept since from what I understand it could still be around towards the end of a heat death of the universe. Would come in awful handy until your matter starts radiating away.

      Anyway, quantam foam's sexy. :)

    6. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by js7a · · Score: 2
    7. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by j-beda · · Score: 2
      Many things in science have no *clear* answer. Like, for instance, the fact that the octet rule can be broken and a valence shell can have *more* than eight electrons (go figure) like that fact that there is no *definite* molecular conformation (and probably many others that we cannot perceive) because the truth is that quantum theory works except in those cases where it *doesn't_work*, the idea that our math does not fit .0000001 percent of the time makes it either A. Incorrect B. Primitive.

      While it is certainly true that we have many things left to figure out, I think you are really overstating the idea that there is a lot of "problems" with quantum theory.

      Quantum electrodynamics, which describes the interactions between light and matter, is extremely well understood. By this I mean, the coorespondence between experimental measurements and theoretical calculations differ by no more than one part in ten to the twelve (or is it 18?). The differences are at the level of our ability to measure and our ability to calculate the model, thus there are (as yet) no points that we can point to and claim "this model doesn't seem to work here".

      Granted, quantum electrodynamics (QED) isn't EVERYTHING, as it does not model gravity or the nuclear processes, but it does model all of chemist and electronics and material science and everything based on those fields - basically everything that we use.

      If QED "explains" all of chemistry so darn well, why do we still study chemistry (and all those other fields)? QED "explains" chemistry to the same extent that the rule book "explains" chess. Understanding the rules of chess does not help much in explaining how to defeat the "Smith Left Side Queen Gambit" for example. It all depends on what you mean by "explains". QED can predict every interaction between the different atoms in a computer chip, but you need higher level models to do anything practically useful like figure out how to program you game of tetris.

      Looking at a chemistry experiment that you do not understand the results of does not mean that QED is necessarily wrong (or even very likely that QED is wrong). It is more like looking at a high level chess game and not understanding why one player makes one particular move. Maybe when the queen was moved one space to the left when you thought it would be moved two places it means that you don't understand the rules, but more likely it means you don't understand the player's strategy. Jumping to the conclusion that you need to modify your theoretical chess rulebook to include a rule like "queens must move two places when the chess player has eaten tuna for lunch" is probably a bit premature.

      A very fun read is Feynman's QED (or in Canada)which gives a very accessible, but not dumbed-down, explanation of QED.

    8. Re:Cold Nuclear Fusion Anybody? by ShavenYak · · Score: 2

      It might also be important to point out that we only need ten digits to write the integers from 0 to infinity. If we were to count in base three, we'd only need three digits to do it.

      --

      Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
  12. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by redfiche · · Score: 5, Informative
    There is a very interesting refutation of hydrino theory here. The author uses basic E & M, a little calculus, and the uncertainty principle to assert that the Bohr radius is the minimum energy for a Hydrogen atom's electron. I'd love to see someone refute the argument.

    --

    Brevity is the soul of wit

    -- Polonius

  13. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For every ground breaking discovery there are a million crackpots. Scientists have plenty of reasons to be sceptic. Once this guy is able topower a space heater with his plasma they will have to believe him.

    btw who says the ether exists?

  14. Reckless Disregard for the Truth by Baldrson · · Score: 2, Interesting
    people like Robert Park. Park even went so far as to falsely charge in Forbes magazine that Mills was claiming a cancer cure from hydrinos. In 1988, Mills published a paper on cancer therapy in the journal Nature that relied on conventional physics-- he hadn't conceived of the hydrino yet.

    With enemies like Park, Mills doesn't need friends. This is a really good way to get credibility with investors for Mills.

    1. Re:Reckless Disregard for the Truth by Lucas+Membrane · · Score: 4, Informative
      Park's latest newsletter says:

      NIAC (NASA Institute of Advanced Concepts) contracted with the Mechanical Engineering Department at Rowan University in Atlanta, to test the idea. Well, they just issued the final report for the 6-month Phase I study. They "successfully test fired" the thruster. "However, due to time and cost constraints successful measurements of the exhaust. velocity have not been completed." Not to worry. "These concepts will be proposed for an ongoing Phase II study."

      Park seems to be a freethinker. He's very conservative on some things, but he mocks a makery of idiocy like the SDI.

    2. Re:Reckless Disregard for the Truth by the+gnat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Park is a badass. He's primarily anti-bullshit; read his articles on what he calls "Voodoo Science" (or the book of the same name) to get a better idea. He can be absolutely vicious at times but I have yet to see a situation where it wasn't called for. He's sort of like Carl Sagan crossed with Jesse Ventura.

      He's been one of the few scientists (or journalists) to call the administration on its missile defense bluff, among other things; he's also repeatedly described the ISS as a waste of time and money- though he's clearly in favor of space exploration. His opinion of creationism is about as low as can be imagined.

      I'm sure the guy can be a dickhead, and I'm sure he can be wrong occasionally, but we need people like him. The mass media tends to give pseudoscientific bullshit far more credibility than it deserves, and too many legitimate scientists keep their mouths shut or ignore the problem. In a society where John Edwards is the SciFi channel's top rated show, skeptics are vital.

  15. Let the scientific method operate by Morgaine · · Score: 5, Informative

    Whether people believe or don't believe that this effect is real or non-existent is completely irrelevant. We have a perfectly good scientific method for distinguishing reality from fiction, and any "opinions" volunteered by experts and lay readers alike are not just irrelevant, but actually harmful to the success of that method.

    The company will in due course provide all the info necessary for independent verification, which may succeed or fail, or else it won't provide it, in which case it fails by default on the scientific front. Opinions are, quite literally, just a waste of time.

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
    1. Re:Let the scientific method operate by obobo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's actually not irrelevant at all. At the end of the day, the scientific method is practiced by the "people" (and "experts") that you say don't matter.

      If no reputable member of the scientific community (ie expert) believes that this can possibly be true, then none of them will bother trying to replicate the experiment. And, as the advisors to the folks with the money, it probably won't be funded nearly as much as if the experts did believe in it. If it does happen to be true, then it does indeed matter to all of us that these experts take it seriously, since that's the difference between having this become reality in a year or in a few decades.

      That said, it doesn't really matter what the average slashdot reader's opinion is, since he/she is not going to replicate the experiment in any event.

      Also, I don't mean to imply that I think that the process is bad- it sure beats wasting a lot of everyone's time and money chasing down every crackpot perpetual-motion/free-energy theory that comes along. But, it does lead to situations where, as Pauli said, you need to wait for most of the current scientists to die off before your new really revolutionary theory is accepted by a majority of the scientific community.

    2. Re:Let the scientific method operate by renard · · Score: 2
      Whether people believe or don't believe that this effect is real or non-existent is completely irrelevant.

      Actually, it all depends on their reasons - which may be good (hydrinos contradict more than a century of quantum mechanics; the second law of thermodynamics makes perpetual motion impossible) or bad (independent researchers can't possibly make interesting discoveries).

      any "opinions" volunteered by experts and lay readers alike are not just irrelevant, but actually harmful to the success of that method.

      I have trouble seeing how any Slashdot discussion could possibly have any impact on "the success of [the scientific] method" for good or ill. Meanwhile, we often have a pretty good time...

      The company will in due course provide all the info necessary for independent verification,

      Actually, since they're an independently owned private enterprise, I wouldn't count on it. As long as they can continue to either (a) generate themselves electric power for free; and/or (b) bilk naive investors out of millions of dollars, what incentive do they have to give away their secrets?

      Opinions are, quite literally, just a waste of time.

      As I said above, it all depends on what arguments those opinions are based upon. Personally, I would urge Slashdot and the wider world generally to carefully and painstakingly ignore Blacklight Power absolutely and categorically.

      While the spectrum of the hydrogen atom was cutting-edge research two turns of a century ago, and Niels Bohr triggered a scientific revolution just thinking about it, Schrodinger, Heisenberg, and the rest pretty much put the baby to bed. By the time Feynman was done with the hydrogen atom and its associated E&M processes, it had no secrets left before the 13th decimal place. So please, if you want to turn up fundamental new physics, look somewhere else.

      -Renard

  16. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by dvdeug · · Score: 5, Interesting

    many self-righteous so-called "scientists" have this incredible fear of anything outside their understanding. Meteorites? They don't exist,

    Psychic powers? Oops, they went away when you walked in the room.

    Psychic powers? Oops, we ignored basic sercuity cautions and let the subject cheat.

    Psychic powers? Oops, it looks like we fudged our numbers.

    Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you.

    When "scientists" stop acting as defensive about their holy truths as any other two-bit religion with a tenuous basis, perhaps we can make some real progress.

    Because the odds of surviving cancer haven't steadily been going up. Because there's no drugs for people with HIV to hold back the virus. Because our movies all come on magnatic media, or long rolls of optical media. Because we have to search for a payphone when we need to make a phone call. Because slow mail or expensive phone calls are the only way for most Americans, Europeans and Japanese to communicate.

    get back to the "real" work of investigating the universe *as it exists*, not as you believe it to exist.

    Small enough circuits have quantum bleed-over, just like predicted by theory. Einstein's theory predicted gravitational lenses, just like they were found in real life. These theories describe the universe fairly well.

    On the other hand, we've been seeing perpetual motion machines for how many centuries? And they never seem to work if and when we get our hands on them. How much work should a scientist spend studying something that's been disproved time and time again? When given something that seems bogus and is presented by someone with a financial motive, that doesn't correspond to the theories that are correct in every observation they made, the general trend is that it actually is bogus.

    Here's another question: what do you do? Scientists would rather not go on what they feel will probably be a wild goose chase, instead working on stuff they feel will get results. I can hardly fault someone for making that decision - I try to avoid wasting my time myself. If you believe it has value, why don't you dedicate your time to studying it?

  17. The JAP Paper is online by davecl · · Score: 5, Informative

    The details of the paper are:

    Journal of Applied Physics -- December 15, 2002 -- Volume 92, Issue 12, pp. 7008-7021

    The abstract is as follows:

    Comparison of excessive Balmer alpha line broadening of glow discharge and microwave hydrogen plasmas with certain catalysts

    R. L. Mills, P. C. Ray, B. Dhandapani, R. M. Mayo, and J. He
    BlackLight Power, Incorporated, 493 Old Trenton Road, Cranbury, New Jersey 08512

    (Received 11 April 2002; accepted 25 September 2002)

    From the width of the 656.3 nm Balmer alpha line emitted from microwave and glow discharge plasmas, it was found that a strontium-hydrogen microwave plasma showed a broadening similar to that observed in the glow discharge cell of 27-33 eV; whereas, in both sources, no broadening was observed for magnesium-hydrogen. Microwave helium-hydrogen and argon-hydrogen plasmas showed extraordinary broadening corresponding to an average hydrogen atom temperature of 180-210 eV and 110-130 eV, respectively. The corresponding results from the glow discharge plasmas were 33-38 eV and 30-35 eV respectively, compared to [approximate]4 eV for plasmas of pure hydrogen, neon-hydrogen, krypton-hydrogen, and xenon-hydrogen maintained in either source. Similarly, the average electron temperature Te for helium-hydrogen and argon-hydrogen microwave plasmas were high, 30 500±5% K and 13 700±5% K, respectively; compared to 7400±5% K and 5700±5% K for helium and argon alone, respectively. External Stark broadening or acceleration of charged species due to high fields can not explain the microwave results since no high field was present, and the electron density was orders of magnitude too low for the corresponding Stark effect. Rather, a resonant energy transfer mechanism is proposed.

  18. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by Monkelectric · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Im 100% with you on this one. The guy has a weird ass phenomenon and a theroy about why it happens. Other people are trying to verify it. Thats pretty much science in a nutshell.

    It the theroy isn't verified, thats science to. Also, there is no harm in trying to do something with the phenomenon even if we don't understand it. I think its likely that the guy might be able to make something usefull and *have no clue* why it works. Electricity was being used and studied 100 years before we had a clue what it was.

    --

    Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

  19. More about the verifier by Cerlyn · · Score: 5, Informative

    Anthony Marchese is a professor at Rowan University, where he teaches Mechanical Engineering. He is a rather nice, young, "cool" professor, as I used to have him.

    I'm guessing the reason NASA sent him out to research this is because among other things, he has done reasearch on how things combust (burn) in space. He has had his experiments taken up on the "vomit comet" as well as on the taken space shuttle mission STS-94, to which I recall a CNN reporter stating in an obviously overpitched tone, "Well, isn't that dangerous?"

    I shall now turn this into the first ever slashdotting with credits as I list the names of the network administrators I know run various rowan.edu servers, ALL of which are now non-accessable:

    Engineering.rowan.edu's administrators: (NOTE: an old Sun SPARC workstation box, will not survive any slashdotting, which it appears to be already getting!!!)

    Rowan.edu (in general) administrators: We must be fair - the school only had (has?) about a 4.5 Mbps total Internet connection (assuming no faster lines ever came through; they were waiting on a certain phone company for years...) - I'm timing out connecting to their stuff too...

    • Mark Sedlock (General all-around network administrator and good guy to know)
    • Patrick Ackerman (Primary generic *.rowan.edu webmaster and graphics designer)
    • The rest of the general Rowan Information Resources Department

    All the above URLs are off the top of my head, as I can no longer access any of those servers. Of the above, only www.rowan.edu seems to be up.

    Congratulations to all the slashdotters who now have successfully flooded an entire campus' Internet connection. The students trying to stea^H^H^H^Hresearch their term papers but are now unable to get online will forever remember you.

  20. Fool me once by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    Shame on you. Fool me twice... Can't... Can't get fooled again.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  21. It gets better:... by pVoid · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From the refered article:

    It's not just BlackLight Power's work in bombs, rockets, and rusty ships that has the military's attention. Mills has stacks of proprietary research on artificial intelligence. In what he calls Brain Child Systems, Mills has done the math for a reasoning machine with consciousness.

    The more I read this guy, the more the hairs on my back stand straight.

    My uncle had a saying, that I just can't keep out of my mind as I'm reading all this:

    "Someone who knows everything knows nothing."

  22. OhNo by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Interesting


    WHAT IS IT WITH YOU GUYS!!!

    This guy is a con-artist taking you for a ride. Why are you feeding his ego. Utter nonsense!

    If you actually read the NASA study, you will immediately see that there the amount of experimental evidence in NO WAY justifies any of the claims made. Excess power generation based on microwave heating of two different gas mixtures invalidates millions of REPEATABLE experiments conducted over the past 80 years? I DON'T THINK SO. Much more likely is that the adsorbtivity of the gases wasn't the same.

    The NASA study didn't even get to the point where they measured exhaust gas velocity.

    GIVE ME A BREAK.

    1. Re:OhNo by meringuoid · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The NASA study didn't even get to the point where they measured exhaust gas velocity.

      NASA have a small project called the Breakthrough Physics Program whose job it is to give credible-sounding crackpots a go, on the offchance that one of them might be right. It's Pascal's Wager - though the chances of one of them being right are minimal, if one actually IS then the payoff is immense.

      So NASA pick up this Blacklight bloke who is peddling a perpetual motion machine that flatly contradicts the most accurate scientific model ever constructed of any system (the quantum-mechanical model of the hydrogen atom) and give him a fair go. They perform a few experiments to test his claims, and in the end they say 'Meh. Well, maybe, kind of, sorta, but not so as you'd notice. Results inconclusive.'

      Thing is, they have to say 'inconclusive'. If they didn't, they'd have to explain to their bosses why they've just spent a good deal of taxpayers' money on snake oil, and their funding is at risk. So they return the Scottish verdict, they stay in work, and the snake oil peddler goes away claiming that NASA scientists endorse his scheme and that the only reason they said 'inconclusive' was because Big Oil made them cover it up.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:OhNo by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      they'd have to explain to their bosses why they've just spent a good deal of taxpayers' money on snake oil,

      One good reason for this expenditure would be to get stories like "NASA proves xyz is a crackpot" onto slashdot and into the Village Voice.

    3. Re:OhNo by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      the chances of one of them being right are minimal

      I'll take my chance on the lottery. The money ought to go to SETI; I think we are far more likely to get a space drive from a message from the stars than these crackpots.

    4. Re:OhNo by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      I think we are far more likely to get a space drive from a message from the stars than these crackpots.

      1000 times zero still equals zero. :)

  23. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by SpinyNorman · · Score: 2

    That's like someone refuting relativity based on the predictions of newtonian physics... If he's onto somethign new here, then it's obvous that existing science isn't going to predict it.

  24. Will Science Never Learn? by Vertex+Operator · · Score: 3, Insightful


    You don't send a scientist to investigate questionable science, and what may or may not be a scam. You send a scientist *and* someone familiar with con artists, scammers, sleight of hand, misdirection, etc. How many times does this have to be said?

    -Chris

    --
    San Diego Padres, 100 Park Blvd, San Diego CA 92101

    It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by
    1. Re:Will Science Never Learn? by passthecrackpipe · · Score: 2
      So, let's imagine the date is December 18, 1903. Someone posts an article on Slasdot (yeah, yeah, just go with it).

      "I heard about these two guys yesterday. They built this thing called an airplane! They get people to go in, and fly around like birds."

      Science Fiction, right? Now, before you go all knee-jerk on me, think about how people reacted to this development in 1903 and 1904.

      --
      People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
    2. Re:Will Science Never Learn? by Lucas+Membrane · · Score: 2

      In 1903, the development of the airplane was widely anticipated by scientific literature and scientific conferences. Several inventors were close to flight. Toy planes powered by rubber bands had been flying for years, and birds and bats somewhat longer. Much of the public didn't like it, but the demonstrations told the story.

  25. You're right. You're an idiot. by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    Seriously, I am not criticizing anyone specific here, but when you misspell common words, it takes a lot of credibility away from your thoughts.

    It takes away credibility in some peoples minds, in other's it doesn't. 99% of the time I don't even notice typographical errors in peoples writing. I wish slashdot allowed me to automatically mod down the poor spellers by a point or two.

    I wish I could mod you down by a point or two, but it looks like someone's already beat me to it.

    A system to correct them before they post incorrect spellings would be better.

    Yeah, we wouldn't want anyone talking about new ideas or concepts like 'hydrino' or anything. Better change it to 'hydrant' on the fly, or maybe trigger the lameness filter! Everyone loves that! The lameness filter never stops anyone from talking about anything interesting. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

    -attribution uncertain, sometimes given as Mark Twain




    Yes, but also 'sometimes attributed to Mark Twain' the quote "Never trust a man who only knows how to spell a word one way" as well, so perhaps it would be rather foolish of you to go around misattributing quotes to MT in your anti-miss-spelling crusade. I probably missed a word somewhere in this post, and that means the trolls will eat me alive. I had a good run I guess.

    Ah, ever the brilliant prognosticator. You're right. You misspelled 'digusting' which should be 'disgusting' (or did you perhaps mean degusting?).

    now, normally I wouldn't hold that against you, but I do believe that the standards set for others should be applied to self, and thus I suppose you have "removed all doubt" that you are, in fact, an idiot.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  26. Re:Suggestion by TheOnlyCoolTim · · Score: 2, Funny

    But he used it with such a noble spirit that it still embiggens his post.

    Tim

    --
    Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
  27. For you who actually think before posting... by Nefrayu · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've done some reading on this subject, and the fundamental theory stems from an assumption that the electron assumes a non-classical (particle) and non-quantum (no probability wave) form of a two-dimensional shell (called an "orbitsphere"). This is where everything comes from, and nobody has been able to disprove the theory yet. The work presently being persued is seemingly discombobulated because it's being influenced by commercial applications. It is pushing to empirically prove the existence of hydrinos (i.e. lookie what I made, therefore they exist!) instead of forming a rock-solid experiment (in the eyes of the scientific community) to prove the existence of hydrinos (i.e. I did X and Y and got A, not Z or B, and here's my test setup and data which clearly shows that I took into account all the variables that you'd otherwise say I neglected, therefore they must exist. Now how can I make money off of this?).

    For those who would like to read more, please /. the following link. It's Dr. Mills' company's webpage which offers a free PDF "book" on the subject.

    --
    Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.
    1. Re:For you who actually think before posting... by Big_Breaker · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have read his work and brought it to the attention of my chemistry professor - a cautious optimist in the cold fusion search. He had also read Mills' book and declared it UTTER bunk. What I failed to catch as an undergrad was that his mathematics were totally flawed. I wasn't really reading it critically.

      He showed me errors which I could confirm from undergrad level physics, calc, chemistry. Remember Mills is a freaking MD not a PhD. His results may not be a fraud but he hasn't put together a cogent theory.

      The biggest problem wasn't actually with the math errors per say but that the math was totally mis-applied. The results were meaningless. Before you say I was just following along with the "establishment" I can tell you it wasn't a close call.

      At best he is an alchemist. At worst he is a fraud.

      It would be great if he comes up with a way of extracting energy from water (he claims to generate enough energy from hydrogen to extract it from water).

      Wanting something to be true though does not make it any more likely to be true, however.

  28. Re:Suggestion by AtariDatacenter · · Score: 2

    How scrumtrulescent! I find myself embiggened by your vocabulary.

  29. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by Bicoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If this hydrino particle exists at a lower energy level than a hydrogen atom, wouldn't one expect them to be somewhat common outside of the laboratory? In fact, you'd expect them to be more and more common as time passes because the energy needed to maintain a hydrogen atom with the electrons at a higher energy level would be lost as unusable heat (entropy, right?). So you'd expect with all the particle physics, quantum physics, etc being researched, you'd think someone else would have run into one of these "hydrinos" in the wild. I'll believe it when someone reproduces his results. Until then, I'll file this next to cold fusion in my "unsubstatiated miracle science" folder.

    --
    If not all sentients are human, couldn't it be possible that not all humans are sentient either?
  30. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by Dolly_Llama · · Score: 2
    doubt the ... the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg.

    Isnt that kinda the idea?

    --

    Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan

  31. Not really by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    I think they make H-Bombs small enough to sit on your desk.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  32. Slashdotted. by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 4, Informative
    Here is the text I was able to get:

    Research Project Funded by the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts

    Principal Investigator

    Anthony J. Marchese, Ph.D.
    Associate Professor
    Department of Mechanical Engineering
    College of Engineering
    Rowan University
    201 Mullica Hill Road
    Glassboro, NJ 08028-1701

    Office: 235 Rowan Hall
    Email address: marchese@rowan.edu
    Telephone: (856) 256-5343
    Fax: (856) 256-5241

    Project Summary

    During the past decade, several research groups have begun to report unique spectroscopic results for mixed gas plasma systems in which one of the species present was hydrogen gas. In these experiments, researchers have reported excessive line broadening of H emission lines and peculiar non-Boltzmann population of excited states. The hydrogen line broadening in most of these studies was attributed to Doppler broadening associated with high random translational velocity of H atoms (i.e. "fast hydrogen").

    Recent data have been published by scientists at BlackLight Power reporting similar phenomena that suggests the presence of a newly identified regime of energetic mixed gas hydrogen plasma systems. Specifically, the following phenomena have been reported:

    • Preferential Doppler line broadening of atomic hydrogen emission spectra,

    • Inverted populations of hydrogen Balmer series in microwave hydrogen gas mixture plasmas,

    • Novel vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) vibration spectra of hydrogen mixture plasmas, an

    • Water bath calorimeter experiments interpreted as showing increased heat generation in certain gas mixtures.

    Scientists at BlackLight Power, Inc. have explained the above phenomena based on a hypothesis that, under certain conditions, hydrogen atoms can undergo transitions to energy levels corresponding to fractional principal quantum numbers. However, since the theoretical explanation of the BlackLight Process has entailed a reworking of quantum mechanics, the theory has not been readily accepted in the scientific community. Regardless of the theoretical explanation, the experimental data suggests that these plasma systems have unique characteristics that warrant further exploration for propulsion applications.

    Accordingly, the objective of the recently completed NIAC Phase I study was to assess the potential of low pressure, mixed gas hydrogen plasmas toward the development of high performance space propulsion systems. The project was awarded to Rowan by the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts in April 2002. Prior to the Phase I study, no attempt had been made to apply this type of plasma system toward the development of a rocket thruster. Preliminary calculations suggest that such a thruster could achieve performance several orders of magnitude greater than chemical rocket propulsion.

    During the period of May 1, 2002 to November 30, 2002, the following progress was made on the project:

    • Conceptual designs for two separate proof-of-concept thrusters were completed.

    • Configuration designs for thruster hardware were developed using SolidWorks 3D solids modeling.

    • A BlackLight Plasma Thruster (BLPT) was fabricated.

    • A BlackLight Microwave Plasma Thruster (BLMPT) was fabricated.

    • An experimental vacuum test chamber apparatus was developed for testing the BLPT and BLMPT thrusters.

    • A spectroscopic technique was developed for measuring thruster exhaust velocity using a Doppler shift of hydrogen emission spectra.

    • A 1 kW class arcjet thruster and power supply was obtained from NASA Glenn Research Center to benchmark Doppler shift velocity measurement technique.

    • Experiments on the BlackLight process were performed including:

    o Thermal characterization of a compound hollow cathode glow discharge apparatus,

    o Hydrogen line broadening measurements in low pressure microwave water plasmas,

    o Measurements of inversion of line intensities in hydrogen Balmer series,

    o Measurements of novel vacuum ultraviolet (VUV) vibration spectra of hydrogen mixture plasma, and

    o Water bath calorimetry experiments.

    • The BLPT and BLMPT were installed into vacuum systems and successfully test fired.

    • Preliminary experiments were performed to measure emission spectra of the exhaust gases of the BLMPT thruster.

    Each of these results is described in the Phase I final report, which was issued on Dec. 2, 2002.

    The following presentation was given at the NASA Instituted for Advanced Concepts Phase I Fellows Meeting in Atlanta, GA on October 25, 2002. Download presentation here.

    Rowan Project Personnel

    Anthony Marchese, PI

    John Schmalzel, Co-PI

    Peter Jansson, Co-PI

    Mike Muhlbaier, student

    Kevin Garrison, student

    Jennifer Demetrio, student

    Tom Smith, student

    Mike Resciniti, '02 (Graduated. Now at University of Michigan.)

    Test Firing BLMPT Thruster

    Last updated: Dec 4, 2002
  33. Crackpot Ideas by MikeFM · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Does anyone else find that so called scientists that dismiss something new out of hand aren't really worthy of being called scientists? IMHO a scientist is like Captain Kirk.. always going where no may has gone before. It's one thing not to believe every thing that comes down the pipe but creeps like this guy that hunts down 'voodoo' just piss me off. If there is nothing to someones ideas and claims then eventually it'll be self evident. There is no need to attack new ideas just because they may be wrong. I've always thought learning from mistakes was the best way. If you're not proving something works then at least your shining light on what doesn't.

    --
    At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
    1. Re:Crackpot Ideas by kmellis · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Does anyone else find that so called scientists that dismiss something new out of hand aren't really worthy of being called scientists?
      I don't think that's a fair characterization. They don't reject new things out of hand, they reject revolutionary things out of hand. As well they should.

      Why? Because there are an infinity of false revolutionary "scientific" ideas possible. A scientist's job is to be skeptical, not credulous. Yes, scientists are "going where no man has split infinitives before" but they go there with intellectual rigor, not having sex with whatever has blue skin and big tits.

      And this story, with the upcoming paper, just demonstrates that the system is working quite well.

      If you think that scientists should be more interested in bizarre and revolutionary ideas, then you should spend some time in sci.relativity and sci.physics (just to name a couple of newsgroups) and see how many crazy, ignorant people with crazy, ignorant theories there really are out there who complain that "they're being persecuted" and "Einstein got bad grades and nobody believed him, either" (he didn't and they did).

    2. Re:Crackpot Ideas by MikeFM · · Score: 2

      It's one thing not to waste their own time on a revolutionary new idea. It's another entirely to attack that idea especially without first investigating whatever claims (if any) have been made. Crackpot ideas are less damaging to society than a missed chance.

      Crying down people without first investigating what they say is not science. Taking a 'know-it-all' stance and assuming what someone says to be wrong (even based on experience) isn't science either. If something doesn't work you have to offer some proof before slamming it.

      --
      At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
    3. Re:Crackpot Ideas by jericho4.0 · · Score: 2
      Very well put, Mr. kmellis. I liked the bit about the tits. :-)

      Seriously, I want to belive in this as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean I can. I want to see that space heater.

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    4. Re:Crackpot Ideas by Comedian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If something doesn't work you have to offer some proof before slamming it.

      Ohnononono.. you've got it all backwards: the burden of evidence is on the other side.

      Crackpot ideas are less damaging to society than a missed chance.

      Well, to use the quote that Carl Sagan loved to pull out in circumstances like these: extraordinary claims demands extraordinary evidence. Is there any extraordinary evidence in this case that indicates it's actually worth looking into? Or is it just yet another case of a mental patient roaming the 'net? Why aren't scientists from far and wide already throwing their collective intellects into investigating these claims?

    5. Re:Crackpot Ideas by Royster · · Score: 2

      Another famous quote from the early 20th C. "This theory is so bad, it isn't even wrong."

      Crackpot science dosn't use standard vocabulary so that someone versed in the field can't understand the claims or the mechanism.

      I have to say that there is, and should be, a lot of skepticism surrounding a "below ground state" state of hydrogen. Hydrogen at a energy state higher than ground state spontaneously transitions to lower states by emitting an electron. If this lower energy state exists, why hasn't it been seen before in labs aound the world? Until someone can reasonably explain this anomaly, then there will continue to be profound skepticism.

      --
      I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
    6. Re:Crackpot Ideas by pVoid · · Score: 2
      I agree with you, but I must make a comment for the records before this article gets archived:

      Einstein did fail some highschool math class. (I don't recall which precise year it was)

      The part that most people don't know, or chose to ignore, is that when he started doing physics, he realized his math skills were not sufficient at all, so he 'brushed up' on it so he could use it to prove his theories.

      That, I think is the greatest lesson to be learned from him: if you aren't born with a gift, it doesn't mean you can't make up for it... and also, even if you are born with a gift, that doesn't mean jack shit if you don't use it well (rimshot to all the underachievers of the world - maybe even including me a bit).

    7. Re:Crackpot Ideas by dvdeug · · Score: 3, Informative

      Crackpot ideas are less damaging to society than a missed chance.

      How many people have died because they went to someone with a crackpot idea that he could heal them without surgery, without chemo, without drugs? How many people have spent needless time sick because they used homeopathic medicine (studied and disproved since 1846) instead doctor approved medicines (or chicken soup and bed rest)? How many people have had a lifetime of missed chances, because instead of working on something that could have been right, they were working on a crackpot idea that didn't have a chance in hell of being right? How many chances do we miss as a society because we spend on crackpot ideas (and supporting thier manufacturers) instead of real things, the money from which will go in part to real research?

    8. Re:Crackpot Ideas by kmellis · · Score: 2

      No, he didn't. His grades were uniformly excellent. This whole misconeption arose because the gymnasium he attended reversed its grading scheme at one point, making it appear to the unsuspecting that good grades were bad grades. (If I recall correctly, it was a numerical 1 to 5 scheme.)

    9. Re:Crackpot Ideas by pVoid · · Score: 2
      Hmmm... Seriously then, I don't know what to answer (we are at a stale mate), because I read this in his biographical book.

      I guess it is up to both of us to be diligent and go do the research in hard facts (links on the web won't work since you say that this is a common misconception).

    10. Re:Crackpot Ideas by kmellis · · Score: 2
      "I guess it is up to both of us to be diligent and go do the research in hard facts..."
      Absolutely! I'm a little ashamed that I didn't do so before answering your post. I'm getting lazy in my old age. I was going on the results of the last time I actually did go to the trouble to research this. Unfortunately, I don't remember the details and, as such, cannot be trusted to be reliable. For all I know, the issue of his grades during his adolescence and during what we would call his "higher education" are two seperate issues.

      However, I will research this now and report back immediately.

    11. Re:Crackpot Ideas by kmellis · · Score: 2
      Well, a quick web search shows that this error is both repeated and debunked at many sites.[1]

      An old USENET post on alt.folklore.urban contains almost the entire text of a New York Times article on this subject. I'm posting both the link to the AFU article here, but I'm also posting the full text of the NYT article (as it appears in the AFU post), just because I can, fair use be damned[2]:

      Copyright 1984 The New York Times Company
      February 14, 1984, Tuesday, Late City Final Edition
      (SECTION: Section C; Page 1, Column 5; Science Desk)

      EINSTEIN REVEALED AS BRILLIANT IN YOUTH By WALTER SULLIVAN

      Contrary to a popular legend that has given comfort to countless slow starters, young Albert Einstein was remarkably gifted in mathematics, algebra and physics, academic records recently acquired from Swiss archives show.

      The records, contained in a collection of the great theorist's papers now being prepared for publication at Princeton, confirm that Einstein was a child prodigy, conversant in college physics before he was 11 years old, a "brilliant" violin player who got high marks in Latin and Greek. But his inability to master French was the bane of his school days, and may have been chiefly responsible for his failing college entrance examinations.

      The documents "place Einstein in the context of his times much more than in the past, providing details of his education in Germany and Switzerland and his more human contacts," said Dr. John Stachel, editor of the papers.

      A prime objective of Princeton University Press, which plans to publish the first volume of the Einstein papers in 1985 after years of controversy and lawsuits, is to seek out the roots of Einstein's sudden penetration to a deeper understanding of nature. The series may run to 38 volumes when complete.

      The initial volume includes Einstein's first scientific essay, dealing with the effect of magnetism on the hypothetical "ether." It was written when he was 16, apparently as part of his first, unsuccessful effort to gain admission to the Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich.

      Although some Einstein biographers have disputed the widely held belief that Einstein was a poor student, the papers at Princeton lay this to rest, once and for all. According to Dr. Stachel, those who saw Einstein's academic records may have been misled by a reversal in the grading system of his school in Aargau, Switzerland.

      Those records show that, for two successive terms, when Einstein was 16, his mark in arithmetic and algebra was 1 on a scale of 6, in which 1 was the highest grade. For the next term his mark was 6, which would have been the lowest grade,except that the grading scale had been reversed by school officials.

      Examination of the papers, now numbering in the tens of thousands, is a journey into the academic world of the 19th century, with emphasis, in Einstein's elementary school experience in Munich, on regimentation and learning by rote. The curriculum, however, was less rigid in the preparatory school heattended in Switzerland.

      ...(Stuff deleted by the AFU poster)

      Neglected Math for Physics

      His academic records there were destroyed in World War II, but Dr. Stachel and his colleagues at Princeton have in hand a letter sent to a Munich newspaper in 1929 by H. Wieleitner, then principal of the Luitpold Gymnasium. He had examined Einstein's school record to refute a report in a Berlin magazine that Einstein had been a very poor student.

      With 1 as the highest grade and 6 the lowest, the principal reported, Einstein's marks in Greek, Latin and mathematics oscillated between 1 and 2 until, toward the end, he invariably scored 1 in math. Nevertheless, as pointed out by Banesh Hoffmann of Queens College in his book on Einstein, the latter confessed that he later neglected mathematics in favor of physics.

      Another testament to his childhood precocity comes from Dr. Max Talmey, who, as a medical student in Munich, knew Einstein when he was ten and a half years old. His "exceptional intelligence," Talmey wrote later in a book, enabled him to discuss with a college graduate "subjects far beyond the comprehension" of so young a child.

      Talmey gave him two books on physics, one of which was entitled "Force and Matter," as though anticipating Einstein's famous definition of the relationship between mass and energy.

      A Weakness in French

      It was chiefly Einstein's weakness in French that led to his failure to pass the entrance examinations for the Federal Technical Institute in Zurich. According to the documents assembled at Princeton, he had been allowed to take the examinations even though he was two years younger than the normal admission age of 18, thanks in part to intervention by a family friend.

      The friend was Gustav Maier, whose banking house in Ulm, Germany, many years earlier had been on the same street as the feather-bedding factory of Einstein'sgrandfather. Maier wrote to Albin Herzog, head of the Zurich institute, which was then as now of international repute, extolling Einstein's genius and urging that he be allowed to take the exam even though he lacked a school diploma.

      While Maier's letter has not been found, the archives of the Zurich institutehave produced Herzog's reply. "In my opinion," he wrote, "it is not advisableto remove even so-called 'Wunderkinder' from an institution in which they have begun studies before they have been fully completed."

      He recommended that Einstein finish his preparatory studies, but said he could take the examinations if he wished. When Einstein failed them, Herzog suggested that he enter the Aargau Cantonal School, whose graduates were automatically admitted to the institute. This was the course that Einstein followed and he was admitted to the Zurich institute in 1896.

      Faulty Essay Gives Insights

      Before that, at Aargau, French was almost his nemesis. Swiss archives have produced the minutes of a teacher's conference held on March 15, 1899, in which it was noted that a written reprimand from the French teacher had been entered in Einstein's record.

      When he finally graduated this blemish was again noted. He was "promoted with protest in French," his transcript read.

      It may be that Einstein, reared in a German-speaking environment, had difficulty competing with Swiss students who, though in the German- speaking region, were taught French from childhood.

      The essay that Einstein wrote in French on his original examination for acceptance at the institute in Zurich was full of errors, but also very revealing. It is quoted in part by Abraham Pais in his recent book on Einstein, "Subtle Is the Lord."

      Entitled "My Future Projects," the essay says he hopes to concentrate on mathematics and physics. "I see myself becoming a teacher of these branches of natural science, chosing the theoretical part of these sciences."

      "Here are the causes which have led me to this plan," he continued. "It is above all my personal disposition toward abstract thought and mathematics, lack of imagination and of practical talent."

      The Aargau records include an "inspector's report" on 17 students of the violin and piano. "One student, named Einstein" it says, "gave a brilliant, as well as understanding, rendition of an adagio from a Beethoven sonata." Einstein continued to play the violin during his years at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, until his death in 1955.

      [1] I won't go into the issue of the reliability of the web, except to say that my experience has been that the sheer breadth of information available on the web makes it more easy to seperate the wheat from the chafe than is the case with supposedly more reliable sources. I have never relied exclusively upon mere reputation or authority to guide my opinion of what is true and correct, and as a result I find the web a superior resource because out of the melange--most of which is crap--it's easier to distinguish the cream that floats to the top.

      [2] I tend to be a supporter of intellectual property rights (though very definitely not a supporter of those who, like the RIAA et al want to abuse them); but, in this case, I do object to the locking away into for-pay archives all sorts of information that would otherwise be of great and frequent benefit to the public weal.

    12. Re:Crackpot Ideas by pVoid · · Score: 2

      Amen!
      Well, who knows, maybe the book I read was misinformed. Or maybe my memory of it has melded into that of the Urban Myth.

      In any case though, I'm glad to see some intelligent conversing and argumentation on /.

    13. Re:Crackpot Ideas by kmellis · · Score: 2
      One source I saw said that at least one of Einstein's biographers was confused by the grading change. Perhaps it was this biography that you read.

      It's somewhat ironic that I spend much time debunking this UL at all since, I must admit, my own grades were as often "F"s as they were "A"s. (Meaning, most of the time.) I, as a "gifted" young person and still, as an adult, a critic of rote learning and a reliance on supposed "objective" grades, always took comfort in the myth of Einstein's genius and educational non-conformance. I have as much a personal psychological stake as anyone in perpetuating this myth. But it aint true.

      Furthermore, I ended up attending an unusual and very rigorous college that, though very difficult, did not utilize grading. Their system managed to work, however, by having one of the very highest student-to-teaching-faculty ratio in the US (perhaps one of the four or five highest, actually) and so there was never any doubt as to the quality of any student's work. And if the work wasn't up to scratch, they were asked to leave. Even there, however, I was both brilliant and an underachiever, so, there ya' go. My point is that it would be nice to hang onto to some sort of idea of the brilliant maverick underachiever who has a revolutionary effect on a field of study; but the truth of the matter is that this is very rarely the case among revolutionary scientists, even prior to the twentieth century.

      This calls to mind a discussion I had with my mathematics tutor (that's what faculty are called there). I was always quite brilliant in mathematics and did things effortlessly that others had to struggle over. Nevertheless, there was written work I neglected just because, well, I was lazy and had long since become accustomed to believing that the rules didn't apply to me. In his office, the tutor gestured to the shelves of books behind him, books (or other works) written by the likes of Descartes and Newton and, yes, Einstein; and he asked me, "Do you think that these writers accomplished what they did through nothing more than genius?" He answered his own question: "No, they did not. They were brilliant, but they also worked very hard."

      As an adult pushing forty years of age, and as someone who's spent much of my life discovering that, yes indeed I am very talented....I've come to understand that talent is cheap and in great supply, hard work is expensive and rare. I may indeed have one or two ideas that could revolutionize a field of study; but then even my most arrogant and narcissistic estimates would have at least many thousands of other people similarly capable. Nothing I am capable of doing is relying only upon me to achieve it. Even though it has felt that way at many points in my life, it is simply unreasonable to expect that I'm very important at all merely by existing. Only through the combination of talent and hard work and perhaps a bit of luck could I be "important".

      I have a great affection for Einstein and an abiding interest in Relativity (though I'm certainly barely competent to even mention it--I know and have dated an astrophysicist and certainly know the vast intellectual and competency gulf that separates us). And something resonates deep within me at his quote that he knew Relativity must be true because anything so beautiful must be true, God would make it so (not a direct quote). But when it is said and done, even in his case it's true that he worked hard all his life, and he paid his dues, and he worked within the system. That's just simply true.

      In this guy's case (the hydronic guy), the fact that he's apparently competent at the field he's trying to revolutionize should work in his favor. In my opinion the first acid test for separating the cranks from the (possible) honest-to-goodness revolutionaries is whether or not they're competent in the fields they are challenging. Most would-be revolutionaries are not.

  34. Richard P. Feynman, by sohp · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sorry, until we have the current living heir to the intellectual tradition and rigor of Richard P. Feynman examine and confirm these claims, it's just so much snake oil.

  35. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2

    You have a point, but so does the parent post to yours.

    If something such as perpetual motion is known to be false, fine, but I read about the difficulties in convincing the scientific community that meteorite theories could be valid, even when comparing existing craters with profiles of ballistic craters.

    I do agree that this hydrogen theory is dubious at best, how long does it take to perform the experiment? I have to admit that the anti-social looking brush-offs by existing scientists don't exactly improve public confidence as it often does look like scientists simply don't think the public is worth educating. It's all a psychology thing, the person doing the denying almost always looks guilty, which is admittedly a tough thing to break.

  36. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by jayrtfm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Buckyballs weren't found in the wild until after they were made in a lab. My only point is that sometimes things in the wild aren't found because we haven't been looking specifically for it.

  37. He doesn't have to be 100% right. by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what if this guy's theory is wrong? As long as there is sufficient evidence of a new strange or unexplained phenomena it's probably worth investigating. Maybe scientists are too busy repeating experiments done by 1000 other scientists. People have already spent billions in hot nuclear fusion and when I last checked it's still the same number of years away. The ISS is not significantly more than an expensive Mir.

    You might as well call Columbus a crack pot and a conman - his theory was wrong, he took other people's money and practically lied to them, and he was far from being even the first.

    Same goes for cold fusion - even if it's not cold fusion, there seems to be some interesting phenomena in it.

    Tons of scientists make up theories without providing any evidence, but they still are lauded for it. Sure it's called "theoretical ......".

    To naysayers it's better to ignore stuff than be negative without evidence, at least you won't look like an idiot if you are wrong.

    --
    1. Re:He doesn't have to be 100% right. by mesocyclone · · Score: 2

      WHAT "interesting phenomena" are there in cold fusion?

      I followed that whole area very closely when it first came out (and was on the mailing list). I saw *no* interesting phenomena other than that of people willing to take sloppy experiments and create elaborate theories about them, and otherwise respectible scientists losing their cool about it.

      So I am genuinely curious. WHAT phenomena?

      --

      The only good weather is bad weather.

    2. Re:He doesn't have to be 100% right. by TheLink · · Score: 2

      I haven't really been following the "CF" scene, so I can't give you many links. But you could read this for a start if you haven't already:

      http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.11/coldfusi on .html

      My point is even if they've only discovered a new type of _battery_ it's already interesting enough (but not enough to call a major press conference and bother the whole world about it ;) ). Still, so far it looks even more interesting than that.

      Since I'm in no position to research the phenomena myself, and the current stuff doesn't look fraudulent, I'm just doing the "wait and see" and hope they find out what actually is happening.

      --
    3. Re:He doesn't have to be 100% right. by TheLink · · Score: 2

      Another thing, as someone in the article said, for high temperature superconductivity they tested thousands of different exotic materials. Only some worked, and it didn't all work that well. And high temp superconductors are definitely not a hoax. Same with lots of those fancy semiconductor stuff.

      So far a common thread is you really need certain sorts of palladium for it to work.

      --
  38. From: The what it's worth dept. by Spock+the+Baptist · · Score: 2

    Class...

    I'll now address the subject of posting to /. and other such forums. If you're not good at spelling and use MacOS X you should consider using OmniWeb as you browser for such activities as it has a spell checking feature. Spell checking in OmniWeb actually works and thus alleviates the need to compose your response in a word-processor.

    Class dismissed...

    --
    "Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex, I could pinch them." --Marvin the Martian
  39. you left out the most important one by g4dget · · Score: 2

    Not only does the lab coat look funny, it shows he can't be a real scientist. Real scientists wear WHITE lab coats, this guy is wearing a BLUE lab coat. I think blue coats are for sanitation workers.

  40. reproducibility and publishing by g4dget · · Score: 2
    Rather, the report simply notes that these high-energy plasmas are created only with the company's catalysts.

    If the composition of those "catalysts" remains proprietary, then the work is effectively not independently reproducible and should not get published in any journal. Saying "buy this magic powder from company X and it will do something spectacular" just isn't acceptable.

  41. Do a Google search on "randell mills physics" by alian · · Score: 3, Informative

    I thought I recognized his name from an article a while back in Wired covering cold fusion. I was right.... (well, at least on the memory that he seemed like a quack.)

    From the search you'll see bios listing him as a publisher of a paper on the Grand Unified Theory.

    C'mon.

    A better village voice article in 99 that was already skeptical. I like how he promised "I'll have demonstrated an entirely new form of energy production by the end of 2000".

  42. Re:wait for the results to be reproduced by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

    I have yet to find any group that has tried to repeat the hydrino experiments.

    The reason is that the this is poppycock.

    How is anyone going to repeaat his results when he makes statements like "only the catalyst I make will work"??

    Scientists don't go around trying to reproduce every wild claim of perpetual motion, etc. for the simple reason it's a waste of time. Basic, well understood theories like the quantum mechanics of the hydrogen atom have withstood the test of time and have been validated many, many times. Claimants that these well accepted results are wrong have a very heavy burden of proof before they will be taken seriously.

  43. Failed attempt at humour by MarkusQ · · Score: 2

    Sorry. Sometimes my attempts at humour work. Sometimes they don't. It was meant as a dig/tease/jibe, not a slam/dis.

    -- MarkusQ

  44. Re:warning, this is a good, old-fashioned flame by Darby · · Score: 2

    ENOUGH WITH YOUR LAME-ASS PAGE. I would rather look at a gaping asshole [goatse.cx].

    Now, this comment might well be offtopic, but I think it at least deserves an honorable mention as, perhaps, the first goat link with an accurate description.

  45. Re:"Someone who knows everything knows nothing" by pVoid · · Score: 2
    Hey, I've had my IQ measured around 150 several times. And you know what... I feel like no genius in particular. In fact, most well educated people will measure over 120 quite easily. It doesn't mean much...

    If there's anything that annoys me from this whole story, and the way it's been presented (and I concede that Mills has little to do with this) is the manner in which his inventions are presented: not humble. I'm skeptical, yes... but I don't expect him to give a flashlight that works with hydrinos either. What I do expect, is for him/whoever is supporting him to have the humility of not saying "there are interestingly excited plasmas" therefor his theory is right, therefor Quantum mechanics have been toppled.

    Remember how Einstein at first decided there must be a cosmological constant when he discovered the universe should be expanding? He might have been a genius, but he was wrong... and he later dubbed that as the biggest mistake of his life.

    This is very a important point: even Greats like Einstein made the mistake of changing the fundamental rules in order to support what apparently was an impossible scenario.

    Saying that quantum physics is wrong*, tossing it in the air, and basically discrediting a centuries' work from some of the most brilliant minds the human race has produced will require WAY MORE than 'an overexcited plasma stream'.

    * here's a quote with said 'lack of humility': Mills's camp responds: Fraud? Let's talk about fraud. Quantumists have us living in myriad dimensions filled with "probability waves" and unobservable "virtual particles" that flit in and out of existence, and they say we may one day slip through wormholes in space to visit other universes or go back in time.

    This post just for Slashdot's record of the Luddite-souled party-poopers that [we] are.

  46. Re:"Someone who knows everything knows nothing" by pVoid · · Score: 2
    I guess time will tell. Only a select few of us have the luxury of being able to delve to the outter edges of human knowledge. And I for one, am surely not one of them.

    In the mean time though, I have a very anthropo/sociological suggestion for you (no matter how right or wrong the theory proves to be), being humble will get you a long way... And I do not say this because my feelings are hurt. No, being humble is a very intellectual process that keeps your eyes open to your own mistakes - it just so happens that being humble also attracts sympathy and support - as opposed to the skepticism and witch hunting you all seem to be currently subjected to.

    Good luck. And do repost this article when the time comes as a celebratory comment!

    (On a side note, I'm still very surprised that you hold IQ tests so high up in your esteem... But that's a completely different tangent that I have no desire to pursue).

  47. Re:Not much of a refutation... by j-beda · · Score: 2
    But it's by definition impossible to understand the new paradigm solely in terms of the old; if it weren't you wouldn't need a new paradigm.

    This is true, and is a valid criticism of many refutiations of new/crackpot theories.

    However, the thing that the new theory needs to do before anyone should bother even trying to refute it is to explain WHY a new paradigm is needed in the first place.

    Some possible reasons for examining new ideas would be: the old one doesn't work in certain stated cases. the new one does the job just as well but is easier to use/interpret/extend. the old one is ugly.

    Many "crackpot" theories are justfied by this last reason - the old established theory is unpleasant for the proponents of the new theory in some way. They don't like "virtual particles" or "probablilty waves" or some other seeming shortfall of the established theory. That is fine, but justifications based on estetics are a tough sell. If the old theory works, it will be hard to find converts. Additionally, you certainly need the new theory to do as good a job explaind things as the old theory did.

    In this particular case it seems to me that the only thing that the new theory offers is the promise of free energy. It doesn't seem to do much in the way of doing the rest of the work that the old theory did.

    Unless they can come up with something that the old theory cannot explain, they will have a hard time finding any converts.

  48. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by trixillion · · Score: 2

    I happen to know quite a lot about physics and can tell you that the proof you posted a link to has serious flaws. Problems:

    1) This proof uses only electrostatics. However classic electrodynamics will show you that the electron in the bohr model will radiate. So unfortunately this is not a steady state solution. Put another way, the proof does not include all the energy terms, thus we cannot possibly solve for the radius of the minimum energy orbit.
    2) The uncertainty principle is an inequality not an equality. The proof gives the uncertainty priciple as an aproximate relationship then converts it into an equality - a rather dubious step. Generally speaking, the uncertainty priciple is not axiomatic. That is to say, QM does not derive from it, it is a result of QM. To use the uncertainty priciple as an axiom effectively assumes QM as well.
    3) Since I'm nitpicking, the proof did not take into account the mass of the proton (Although this is trivial to fix.)
    4) And finally there is no account made for special relativity. Trickier to fix but the effect is small.

    Thus he proof assumes the following, (1) Maxwell's equations are wrong, and only Coulomb's law applies; (2) The uncertainty principle is an equality (Again not even in agreement with QM); (3) Newton's third law doesn't apply; and (4) Special Relativity doesn't apply. Wow, to summarize this "proof" has violated Newton's third law, Maxwell's equations, Special Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics, as well as basic standards of mathematics. It is a wonder that it's result is in even close agreement with the real radius of hydrogen, but such is the universe we live in.

  49. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by trixillion · · Score: 2

    I've read parts of his work. I have not gone through his derivations of the "Mill's atom" line by line but I am familiar with his approach. The assumptions he uses are the following:

    1) Maxwell's equations.
    2) Conservation of Energy (Despite claims to the contrary by his detractors.)
    3) The DeBroglie relationship between wavelength and momentum.
    4) Electron mass density has the same profile as charge density.

    Criticism that I have seen and looked into:
    1) The non-radiation criterion he uses for determining the electron orbit is not valid for the system he deals with.
    2) He is mistaken in his calculation of the Fourier transform of a three dimensional radial dirac sphere/shell/delta.
    3) His methodology for deriving solutions to the wave equation is non-standard.

    While I have strong reservations about his overall theory, I also have reservations about each of the above mentioned criticisms.

    1) Mill's makes a strong argument that the Haus condition should apply due to superposition of charge. I have never seen a formalized argument to show that the Haus condition does not apply; I have seen a lot of verbage and hand waving on both sides.
    2) This one is truly bizarre. He makes no mistake with this. In fact it was the attention paid to this argument by his detractors that made me think that they were not doing their homework.
    3) I have yet to see a demonstration that his solution does not satisfy the wave equation.

    If you are familiar with other mathematical criticisms of Mills work I would be interested in hearing about them.

  50. Re:Good to see a payoff for "bad" science finally by trixillion · · Score: 2

    I'm familiar with this particular manifesto of Dr. Zimmerman. Some of his criticisms are legitimate, many are not.

    1) "The Haus condition doesn't apply" - Dr.Z offers no proof of this, while Mills provides derivation of the condition, grounds for using it in his method, and demonstration that the resulting orbitsphere is indeed non-radiative.
    2) "Mills's use of the wave equation he selected is unmotivated, and doesn't seem justified by any arguments made" - I agree with respect to the three dimensional+time wave equation. However, this equation is further reduced by the boundary conditions imposed by the Haus condition. The resulting wave equation is neither unmotivated nor unjustified by Mills' arguments.
    3) "The method of solution proposed does not actually incorporate the procedure of separation of variables properly." - Perhaps Dr.Z has an earlier copy of Mills' manuscript than I do (mine is dated July 2002.) Otherwise this is groundless. Mills clearly uses the Haus condition to reduce the scope of one wave equation into another and the result is then solved in the classic manner.
    4) "The proposed radial solution is not, in fact, a correct solution to the Mills wave equation" - I agree it is not a solution to the initial wave equation Mills gives. This isn't insurmountable. The original equation was afterall "unjustified" and "unmotivated"; and in this case irrelevent. IMHO, Mills should not have included the original wave equation as it offers nothing to the mathematical argument and is unecessary for the derivation of the second wave equation.
    5) "A thin shell of charge with a point charge of the opposite sign at its center is not stable against small perturbations." - Careful there Dr.Z! Yes, there is a similar result from undergraduate mechanics; however it only applies to a rigid shell. In the case of Mills, the charge density is not rigid within the shell and therefore Dr.Z's argument carries no water. I think what Dr.Z is trying to get at is that in the electostatic case, there is no force effecting the proton within the orbitsphere. In the electrodynamic case there is a central force.
    6) "The proposed wave equation does not contain any provision for the introduction of an attractive force to bind the electron." - Yes and no. The orbitsphere is a result of the haus condition, not of the interaction with the proton. In other words, if an electron is going to exist with radial symmetries and satisfy the haus condition, then according to Mills it must be in the form of an orbitsphere. Interaction with the proton is later introduced.
    7) "No quantization conditions arise naturally in the solution of the equation. The Bohr formula is grafted in later as an 'arbitrary' constant." - Not in the version I have. The quantization is clearly a result of solving the wave equation that results from consideration of the haus condition and associated boundary conditions. The Bohr formula is not grafted in, rather there is an unstated axiom - namely, the DeBroglie relationship between momentum and wavelength for the electron.
    8) "If one is uncomfortable with the Copenhagen version of QM, I suggest trying Bohmian Mechanics, a hidden variable theory suggested by David Bohm in roughly 1953 and said to be consistent with the rest of physics." - I agree, Bohm's book on the subject is very interesting. It should be required reading for future physicists because it calls into question several assumptions behind the hegemony of the Copenhagen interpretation.

    Dr.Z. makes several other points, but I lack the knowledge base to comment on them. Perhaps some of them are crushing to Mills' theory, or perhaps my analysis above is devestatingly wrong. As I said before, I have not carefully checked Mills' approach line by line, assumption by assumption; so it is highly likely that I may be mistaken on a few of the above points.

    I hope that helps.