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Has the Quality of Consumer Electronics Declined?
NewtonsLaw asks: "With Christmas coming up I dare say that lots of people are going to spend big bucks on consumer electronics in the next few weeks. This column asks an interesting question -- are consumer electronics manufacturers sacrificing quality and reliability for an endless list of features? If you're like me, you've probably got a TV, VCR or other appliance you bought over 5 years ago which is still going strong -- but much of the stuff you've bought in the past 2-3 years is already giving trouble. What's more, it seems to be the big-name manufacturers such as Sony who are most affected by this decline in standards. I'd love to hear the experiences of other Slashdot readers in an effort to get as many data-points as possible. Are you better off buying a $49 DVD player on the expectation that it will only last a year or so -- or do lay out two or three times that amount something made by a big-name manufacturer in the (possibly vain) hope it will provide superior performance and last longer?"
For some reason most of my home electronic equipment comes from Sony. I have a stereo, a surround receiver and stuff like that. And, oh yeah, a Sony Ericsson phone. They've never caused me any problems ever. Just plain works. Not the best gear out there, but good value for money. Perhaps other brands are worse, I don't know.
Ciryon
Example two Useless, gimmicky 'features' that are software defined. Not very durable. No clicky feel, due to cheapness of rubber dome caps. Will most likely last until you spill Coke all over it.
As an avionics technician I can attest that consumer electronics is not the only field suffering. I work for a company that prides itself on quality, and most of the new units see my bench
less than a year after manufacture, however there is a slow flow of instruments built 10 years ago that are just now seeing the shop for the first time. Kind of a horrifying thought for you while riding on that airplane
Quality of new items seems to be lower than it used to be. I own tons of consumer electronics devices, way more than the average person, I'm sure. The things I buy now don't last as long. I've been through 3 dvd players in 4 years, and they were all over $150. Yet I have a set of speakers that are 12 years old (!) and still work perfectly.
There's also no point in fixing any of these items, everything is soldered onto one PCB board. If one trace comes loose... Time for a new unit.
Check out a Technics turntable...
Technics SL-1200 MK2
You'll find a pair of these in pretty much any club in the entire world. The design hasn't changed at all in over 20 years. It's a beautiful piece to behold, it's built like a tank. It weighs 26 pounds. And every single component, motors, tonearm, etc -- can all be replaced. These things are built to last.
This is how things used to be built. I can't think of anything new that I own that has the build quality of my turntables. And that's sad.
We've turned into a disposable society.
While many vendors (and most of the OSS community) writes software to be error free, stable and secure, MS focuses on features they can market to get you to upgrade. Consumer devices are no different.
I refuse to buy most big brand names now. I've been burnt by just about everyone, mostly recently Microsoft and my xbox that died 3 weeks after the warranty was up.
My dad has a Mitsubishi 36 inch TV that he bought close to 14 years ago. It still works like a champ, no problems at all. I've got a 3 year old 36 inch Sony that I'm already seeing problems with.
I can't say exactly why this is happening, but I can venture some guesses. The quick buck is killing our economy. Everyone wants that easy money. No one takes pride in their products and builds them to last.
I recently looked at the feature lists of some home stereo equipment and was shocked. Most of the stuff on your average home stereo will never be used but you can't find simpler equipment. Additionally we are still using some pretty ugly wiring schemes for home audio. The back of my home theatre setup is insane! I have wires everywhere and while I'm usually good at labeling them, it's still a nightmare to work with.
No one is making these things better. They are making them cheaper and more complex. This goes against what people actually want. Features are nice, yes, but not at the expense of quality and ease of use.
Last January I purchased a Mitsubishi Platinum HDTV unit from a big-name electronics store. Just a few weeks ago (less than 11 months after purchase) the TV went out. Ugh, what a bummer!
The television repair person came out to diagnose the problem but couldn't figure it out - of course. So he took the guts out of the TV for diagnosing back at the shop. On his way out he mentioned that Mitisubishi has been having problems recently with the reliablilty of their picutre tubes so he thought that may be the problem. (hint #1 that these can be unreliable)
Come to find out that it was not the picture tube but the power supply of all things - my goodness, how hard is it to put a good quality power supply into a piece of electronic equipment that cost over $3k. (hint #2 that these can be unreliable)
Well at least I will be getting my TV put back together tomorrow and all it really cost me was time away from the big screen and my Tivo - which isn't really a bad thing. Luckily the extended service warranty paid off for once, didn't pay a cent.
Just as an aside I don't usually buy those extended warranties but it was less than %10 of the cost of the item and I don't consider this type of item a throw-away item - the author of the article considers his DVD player tossable after a year - this TV is a little different I think.
Just my $.02 - I had heard that Mitsubishi was pretty good in the realiability department on their TVs but personal experience has proven otherwise for me. We'll see how long until the next issue arises - hopefully long into the future.
Are you bovilexic? Moo!
Basically the premise is larger coporations eating smaller corporations, drive for profit leading to lack of quality standards and appreciation, more features to keep selling (who can survive if your product is only bought every 10-20 years)... There's more, but that's what the book is for, including giving a possible explanation as to why this came about in the first place, and why we let it continue to get worse.
FYI: Marvin Harris is not only probably one of the most influential Anthropologists of our time, but also writes many books (including this one) in a very easy to follow and understandable way.
Oh yes, how they have declined. Or at least I think so... they suck now and for some reason I assume that wasn't always the case.
I used to sell computers at Future Shop (a shitty Canadian retailer ala Best Buy in the US) and we would get shipments where head office would tell us to expect 1 in 10 to 1 in 6 be be defective right out of the box. At least twice, we got shipments where every other machine was defective. I started tracking returns and warrantee issues that would come back to the store and I would honestly estimate that some manufacturers (who rhyme with Bompaq and Baych-pee and eBachines) would hit over 25% defective units in the first year on some models.
Manufactures need to cut costs everywhere they can and quality just doesn't seem to matter. When I would get a serious geek (who was some how clueless enough to be in a Future Shop) I would quietly refer them to a local clone dealer with a rep for quality work and using good components
Unquestionably, everything is crap. My VCR took a dump recently...it was a semi-pro machine and was bought by a major cartoon studio in 1993. My husband and I wound up with it in 1996 or so. It had served us well up until a few weeks ago, when it ate a tape, belched, and wouldn't play anything anymore.
Trouble is, you can't really replace something like that anymore. Most VCRs are made in China, Malaysia, Indonesia or Korea, and are trash quality. I didn't have the heart to buy a piece of crap VCR and possibly risk the demise of more irreplaceable tapes.
I'm waiting for reasonable DVD recorders. Then I will get on the stick and dub all my tapes to DVD-R. (or +R if that shakes out as being the winner) Right now they are way too expensive.
BTW you can't guarantee getting something good if you buy Sony. Sony gets things made for them in China like everyone else does. And worst of all: they belong to the RIAA and MPAA.
I still can control quality on my computers by home-building, but I wonder how long that will last. Everything else...you roll the dice, you take the chance.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
I bought a 27" Sony WEGA in Sep. 2001, and it had to have the tube replaced in Feb. 2002. Luckily I caved and bought the service plan from the retailer, otherwise I would have been stuck with the bill. I have two friends that have had problems with their WEGA TVs.
Stay away!
While not recent experience, I was helping someone with a high-end TV purchase. The buyer was interested in Sorny, er, Sony specifically until the salesman mentioned that Sony had been having a lot more QA issues after they moved manufacturing to Malaysia.
Perhaps Sony (and the other big names) are trading on their past reputation and perceived value while exporting jobs to lowpaying locales in order to make larger profits?
Check out
epinions. They review a sony video recorder and come up with this list:
Brands are listed starting from the most reliable (best) to least reliable (worst):
1. Panasonic - produced by Matsushita Electric
2. Quasar - also produced by Matsushita Electric
3. Samsung
4. Sanyo
5. Toshiba
6. Sharp
7. ProScan
8. GE
9. Hitachi
10. Philips
11. RCA
12. JVC
13. Symphonic
14. Emerson
15. SONY - isn't it too low for a "leader"?
16. Optimus (Radio Shack)
17. Mitsubishi
18. Zenith
19. Series LXI (Sears)
20. Fisher
IANAL, but imagine a beowulf cluster of in Soviet Russia all your belong are base to us welcoming the new SCO overlords.
I bought a TV at Wal-Mart (hey, I know.. but at the time, there wasn't an electronics store for 100 miles in any direction).. It was a 27" RCA TV with Guide+ GOLD blah blah.. I paid ~$325US (kinda pricy for a 27" TV).. In the 2 years since I made that purchase, I've had to return the TV 3 times (that's right, I'm on my 4th TV in 2 years), and I don't think it's Wal-Mart's fault.
Now, I'm on Wal-Mart's "You've returned too many higher priced items in X months, so we think you're stealing them" list, and I cannot return the TV even though this one just recently broke too. I've finally decided to quit beating the dead horse and just buy one from Best Buy and the ~$50USD 4 year service agreement..
I've joined a few TV repair forums since this started happening, and I've seen a lot of the exact same TV break multiple times.. When shopping for my new TV on best buy's site, I saw the model of mine that was constantly breaking.. They are now selling it for $229USD and not offering any sort of service agreement on it..
Of course products aren't built to last. I assume an MTBF of 2 years on all consumer products, and budget for replacement, because repair will be impossible or uneconomic. Yes, they're disposable. There is no money in making things that last.
If things last too long the manufacturers will come up with some new "standard" that renders the present installed base obsolete, thus forcing people to spend money. I have heard suggestions that this was part of the push for both CD audio and DVD video.
I have been pleasantly surprised, but only a few times. One particularly good result was a cheap piece of crap VCR from Zellers that I finally retired, still going strong, when it proved to have 4 Y2K bugs.
...laura, wondering how they would handle VCRs with Y2K bugs in Soviet Russia
Back in the late 80's, I bought an inexpensive (corded) phone at Radio Shack. I was going to gut it to make my own lineman's handset. I pried the thing open with a pair of pliers and discovered, much to my surprise, a sizeable peice of metal attached to the inside of this phone. The was put in there to add weight to this peice of crap. Apparently, people would never buy the phone if it felt like the cheap peice of 3"x2" circuit board that really was!
It seems that this is quite common. Open up most any cheap handheld electronic gadget and you're likely to find a weight inside.
has the quality of high end consumer electronics declined?
cheap crap has always been available within a few months or at most a year of the wide availability of any new technology (the first year CD players costed an arm and a leg, but they probably are still working fine now, my first generation cheap CD player stopped reading CDs within a year and a half) but I find that some years back, if you bought the top of the line (or close to) model of a decent brand, odds were it would go strong for years and years and years.
Lately it seems, like others have said, that the discriminator between high and low price of a specific product is not reliability anymore, but just features, and the reliability is the same (usually not that great) all across the board.
Things are starting to get to the point that buying an extended 3 yrs 'no questions asked' replacement warranty is not the waste of money that it was some years ago.
In my personal experience good products are still obtainable, but getting fewer and fewer, off the top of my head: high-end HP printers (4xxx series), denon CD players, toshiba DVD players, toyota cars, bosh/whirlpool appliances, philips razors, you get the idea.
I really couldn't pick a TV, though, as I keep hearing horror stories about pretty much every projection TV out there, and direct view plasma HDTVs are way out of the reach of us common mortals pricewise...
-- the cake is a lie
Another day closer to redwood heaven
This sort of problem has been around for quite some time. Originally, solid state electronics were designed to last for anywhere up to a decade with minimal maintenance. Old timers here (eg; anyone 30 and older) can remember buying replacement vacuum tubes for old clunker TVs that, despite being older than they were, were still going strong. Similarly, older VCRs have a surprisingly long lifespan, where a bit of belt reconditioning, the occasional head cleaning, and minute bias adjustments were all that was needed to keep them operational. In fact, you can often get an old VHS toploader to run good as new with that small amount of maintenance.
However, the industries that build these devices have learned that making a device durable and expensive is not only counterproductive, but unprofitable. Why sell a TV that lasts 20 years, and sell it for $300, when you can make a TV that lasts 5 years, sell it for $200 a pop, and make $800 from consumers who consider it a bargain? Same goes for VCRs, which aren't made for durability anymore, in fact, being priced very close to walkmans and portable CD players, they're more geared towards disposability.
Unfortunately though, there's the electronic waste issue again, which I brought up regarding HDTV. Where will all the waste go? Once again, probably to 3rd world countries that consider a fast buck more important than turning it's towns into toxic waste dumps.
We seriously need to review this process, and find ways of cheaply and safely disposing of these materials, or instead, go for equipment that's rated for a lengthy operational period, putting the concept of responsible consumerism to practical use.
From personal experience, the most durable goods I've owned have been made by Sony, Hitachi, Pioneer, JVC and Toshiba. What's needed is a long term write up on equipment, rated by durability. Perhaps when some of these companies find themselves on the list for most durable (or subsequently, those least durable), then they'll focus on either building hardware that lasts longer, or improving their manufacturing techniques to improve on their records.
Unfortunately, Consumer Reports only does this with cars, while electronics recieve a meager 6 month long term rating.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Well, people are stupid, sure.
There have always been stupid people though. And there *is* a market for high-end audio today, perhaps even more so than in "the 70's", which I remember very clearly; I was a record collector in those days!
The thing is, the consumer does make a fairly safe bet -- at a certain price level, the difference usually IS features. We have all these little cheesy digital playback devices, nothing in the consumer arena that records worth a damn (maybe some of the video stuff can record decent audio? nah.) We reached an equilibrium for the consumer's ear as 16 bit audio became the norm. Hell, remember when talking toys had little phonographs in them? Now those things have a 16 bit DAC.
Consumers didn't care back then either. They wanted whatever was cheaper. Remeber credenza stereos? People selected those for their wood grains, not their quality. (Some of those things were kickass though).
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I used to work in advertising...and one of the best stories I have is a fairly long one involving Sony. The short version of the story is a quote by a manager from Sony USA who when asked why they did not advertise/promote as much as the other electronics companies simply replied "because we're Sony. People will by Sony no matter what because we are Sony".
Really. When Best Buy and Circuit City have nothing but cheap shit on the shelves in the consumer entertainment department it's because that's exactly what people are willing to pay for. There used to be a middle range of devices, usually retailing just a little above the cheap stuff.
:)
These mid range units could generally be relied upon to perform well, have extra useful features, and lasted longer. As an example I had a Sony Hi8 camcorder from circa 1990 - a fabulous machine : Great optics, great mechanics, great sound, manual controls for everything, audio overdub functions, nice damped zoom control, it had the works. (It got stolen after 4 years, but by then it still worked as new.)
Sure it cost a bit more than the discount units available at the time, but in use you could certainly feel where those extra dollars went. It was also a lot cheaper than the high end pro video gear. All in all it was a nice compromise.
Nowadays the mid range is mostly gone - how could it be any different? The consumers buy the cheapest shit they can find, with everything automatic. You can't find camcorders with manual controls unless you go to the 'prosumer level' which is a relatively new high-strata tier with prices ranging close to that of pro gear. (Sony VX2000, Canon GL-1, XL-1, etc.)
It's my impression that the mid range market shrank in America as quality-oblivious people decided the budget units performed 'well enough', and simply picked which-ever nice-looking unit had the lowest price tag with a comparable feature set. The incentive to improve quality became less significant than the incentive to reduce price.
A circuit board in a black box is not just a circuit board in a black box, but who's to know if the thing works okay for a couple of months before it starts to die little by little?
There have been digital radio tuners for almost twenty years. Why do you think they still sell clock radios and boomboxes with mechanical turn-knob tuners?
The Japanese in particular, but also Europeans have been more quality conscious than Americans, and the mid-range segment still exists there. For example, the Europeans have for many years had an affordable mid-range 16:9 widescreen TV option with digital framedobler and picture stabilization, which is available to Americans only if they go all the way and buy the high-priced High Def sets.
For twenty years(!) Europeans have had digital ceefax teletype color text overlays on their TVs which lets users lookup program listings, news and weather information and much more from their remote controls. It's virtually indispensable even if it's low tech and looks like early 80s console game graphics, but Americans have never had anything as functional or useful of the kind until the advent of the digital cable box, Tivo, etc.
Europeans have NICAM digital near-CD-quality stereo audio to go with the PAL (*) TV picture, which by the way has higher resolution and much better colors than the Japanese/American NTSC format. Most American mom&pop&joe sixpack consumers get their stereo audio in crap quality from an analog audio carrier in the NTSC format. The new digital cable boxes improve the situation; but many many households still use 1980s or even 1970s technology, upon which they base their quality and performance expectations.
European electronics consumers have preferred direct two-way audio/video cables (SCART) to connect their VCRs and TVs in order to obtain the better picture afforded by not having the picture components squished together and lose quality by being re-modulated and de-modulated for the aerial connection: In the six years I stayed in the U.S., in the many different homes I visited, I saw most American home consumers connect their VCRs and even DVD players to the TV through aerial jacks.
Where I lived (Fairfax, VA) I had a nice home entertainment system setup. 120 channels of crap on TV to choose from, but the cable system employed analog UHF multiplexing technology from the 1970s (two stiff coaxials snaking from the wall to a decoder box with, I shit you not, fake wooden sides!) - The picture always had ghosts and noise and looked awful. The colors were washed out and the effective horizontal picture resolution was maybe 200 pixels. One day the picture looked so bad that I called in a cable guy to fix it. He probably thought I was some kind of euronazi crank because he said it looked just like everyone else's signal and nobody's complaining. With performance expectations as low as these, it's no wonder American consumer electronics are all basically worth exactly what you pay for.
Americans: If you want good stuff, smuggle some stuff home from Japan. Suffer the premium rates. They use mostly the same standards as you do, but their shit is -much- better, has more features, lasts longer.
Also, come visit Europe sometime, check out the cool shit we got you ain't got: 100hz TV picture steady as a rock, broadcast TV over aerial looking close to DVD quality; RDS car radios which continously retunes your receiver to the closest carrier broadcasting the program you're listening to, and your CD player pausing automatically for urgent traffic announcements; Ubiquitous, standardized GSM cellphones with SMS and always-on GPRS data services...
(*) By the way, pay no attention to the French with regards to home electronics. They're weird and speak French and use SECAM which sucks.
I totally agree. People cannot distinguish quality properly - they seem to confuse it with features, and I don't see how "quality" and "features" are related in any way.
Example: Less than 3 feet (1 metre) from me is a good-working GE table radio - built in 1960. Across from it is a fully calibrated oscilloscope and a signal generator - both built in the early 1950's, and working perfectly. (A 30-mHz range is plenty for audio and some radio work). My theory is that while individual component quality has gone up (resistors, capacitors, etc.) the overall ruggedness of design and construction has declined.
I used to do hi-fi repair for local shops; nowdays I prefer to deal in computers.
I fully agree that the technical literacy rate sucks; I have a manager who once told me that he wants a new computer with a 2 gigabyte chip...
and I kept a straight face.
I guess anything with scientific prefixes or suffixes attatched to its name triggers an odd sort of mental avoidance mechanism, similar to spastics. It's frustrating; the technical language and terminology is *not* that hard to figure out, if only people could pull themselves away from their cheap TV's for a few minutes with a dictionary.
C|N>K
Sony's strategy is to build stylish electronics with lots of great features and sell it for a great price. In order to make this happen their quality is horrible, and their customer service is even worse. If you've ever tried to get a Sony product repaired you know what I'm talking about. I had a Vaio laptop and the 'L' key broke off. I called Sony, and despite the fact that I had registered the laptop and it was 6 months old, they were going to charge me $150 to repair it unless I had the original receipt (the fact that I bought it direct from Sony didn't make a difference)!!! And if they did repair it, I would have to back up my hard drive because they would have to format it! How bad can you get?
I went down to the local CompUSA and popped the L key off on of their display computers. About 1/4 of the keys were missing from that computer, I guess it was a common problem.
I had 5 other Sony products break within 2 months of this. I no longer buy Sony.
There are some very high quality consumer electronics out there though. If you've ever looked at high-end audio components (stuff that you can't buy at the local circuit city), you know what I mean. You certainly have to pay for it though.
Nowadays we shouldn't have to depend on salespeople to know every detail about every product I agree that they shouldn't, but a consumer should have access to a stats sheet on the quality of the product.
That having, been said, that was when you were paying $200-400 (1980 dollars) for a cheap component amp. If you go into a store where they charge you $400-$800 for a component amp (plus another $200-300 for the tuner), then I'd expect that they'd be happy to give you a full stats sheet.
Back when you were paying $700 for a CD player, they were happy to make them bullet proof, because they knew that, if they broke, you would bring them back for warranty repair and complain to everybody on the net (all 7000 of them) that the company was making garbage.
For my part, I still have my 14" Sony Color TV that I bought in 1986 as a computer monitor (for a Dragon 65 (COCO clone)). I paid $120 in 1999 to get the tuner fixed and it's still working just fine, thank you. The VCR got stolen in '93. Dunno what the lifespan for today's TVs are.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
My parents have a television that is a couple years older than I am - placing it at least 21 years old. It is the only television they have ever owned. While it's not high tech, and they don't watch much TV, it has gotten (on average, I'd say) at least 3 hours of use a day, conservatively.
On the newer side of things, I've seen televisions, monitors, LCDs, and projection units fail within a year quite a few times in the last 5 years. I'm sure everyone has. I know of people that have 3 or 4 in their house, and one tends to die on them every year.
I still have a Nintendo Gameboy (what might be deemed the Classic now) that runs fine - even after being flung at the wall uncountable times in rage, and even being run over once by a truck by accident once. It's had fluids (not just water) spilled in it, and has been used in nearly every environment. (I'm also led to believe that my situation here isn't exactly rare.)
I've heard several friends' children complain about their GBAs not working, or actually seeing the result of one flying down a staircase onto a hardwood floor myself. (I find it plauseable that someone could take a GBC and use it as a hammer to destroy GBA units to dust.)
To say nothing of the plethora of old PC systems (as old as 10 years) still running strong, whereas there are many, many new systems that have a major problem within a year (mainly memory or hard drive problems, it seems). Or the items that just happen to fail just shortly after going out of warranty.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
If you climb into an airplane and the pilot says "Sure hope we don't lose this baby (*pats futuruistic Garmin all-in-one unit*)." then get out of the plane as fast as you can. If the airplane and/or pilot can't handle the loss of any one piece of avionics then you need to fly with someone else. Naturally losing avionics during an IFR approach to minimums would suck, but the plan is it would be very rare to lose all of the criticals at once.
All in all I'd say predictability of quality has disappeared. It used to be that you bought certain brands for the quality, now you have no idea from model to model whether it's going to perform very well or for very long.
Buy a top-end Sony monitor (G520), XBR TV, DVD player, etc. from their ES line, and you get decent quality and reliability. Why? Because those units require and receive a bit of testing and tweaking before shipping.
Buy their "consumer" level products, and you get untested slide-line manufactured junk, the same as everyone else in the cheap-as-possible-with-lots-of-buttons market.
I and my sisters gave the folks a 20" Sony TV for their anniversary over ten years ago, and it works fine. My 32" Trinitron (8 years old) still works fine. My first DVD player was a Sony, which lasted through almost six years of heavy use, and AFAIK is still working for the guy who bought it from me (I replaced it with a new Sony in the same price range that does SACD and progressive scan, which is working fine, but only six months old.) My ES20 CD player is still solid after six years, but no longer gets used because the DACs aren't upgradeable. An ancient Sony 17se still functions, though it can no longer do more than 72Hz without generating a squeal (it used to do 75-85.)
On the flip side, I've had to replace my portable Sony CD player about once a year. Failed motors. Failed CD clamps. Failed audio jack. Failed buttons/wiring. Yet the only moving these units have done is from desk drawer to desk top and back each day at work.
I never have and never would buy one of Sony's amps, because they have no current. Watts don't drive good sound, clean current does. A 75 watt high current amplifier from the audiophile manufacturers runs rings around a "250 watt" Sony.
The bigger problem I've had is companies like JVC, Viewsonic, and HP, who don't have the high build quality lines. They use the same parts throughout their manufacturing line, and it shows. I killed two HP DVD burners with less than 1500 hours of burning each. My JVC VCR has been flaky since day one, despite being their "top of the line" model. A 19" Viewsonic monitor died in less than two years, despite being their "professional" series.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Do you remember these? They are the red circular toys that have a ring of animals or whatever around the front with an arrow that points to one of the sounds. When you pull the lever you get the sound of the animal (or whatever) the arrow is pointing to. They had little phonographs inside so they didn't require batteries and you could do slow down or speed up the recorded sound.
Well I wsa shopping for my young daughter the other day and was saddened to find that the phonograph had been replaced with a chip and the sounds were distorted to sound somewhat like the original. They still have levers but they serve no purpose other than spinning the arrow around and pressing the button inside that plays the sound.
Anyway, the point is that if you didn't press the handle down all the way, the internal button wouldn't get despressed and no sound would come out. I let my two year old daughter try it out and she couldn't get it to make a sound, only to spin.
Anyway, I know this is slightly offtopic, but it's related to the parent post.
-
BTW you can't guarantee getting something good if you buy Sony.
To say the very least.
Sony equipment I've bought that crapped out on me: 5.25" floppy disk with no hub reinforcing ring (circa 1985), a Walkman that had a constant skip on the second half of every CD, headphones that leaned to the right, a 20-inch monitor (TV, not computer) that went green after only one year of use, EverQuest, and an Aibo site that would open fine in Opera if you saved it to disk first but was programmed to redirect you to a "MS or Netscape only" page otherwise.
Sony equipment that didn't crap out on me: none.
You heard me right: every last product I *ever* bought from Sony has crapped out on me.
Ellen
mods metamodded as "Unfair"
What has happened with the audio market is that there are fewer and fewer mid-quality audio devices being produced (although some prices are being raised on lower-quality goods). A gap has been forming between the average consumer cd player and an audiophile cd player for quite a while. For instance, the $200-$300 Marantz players of today are built more cheaply than the ones of 5 years ago (alhough the cheap materials may not mean cheaper sound--I haven't heard the newer models). Most likely you are stuck between a choice of an all-in-one DVD/CD/MP3 with speakers wonder for $99.95 and a set with a DVD player for $300, CD player for $300, integrated amp for $400 and speakers for some other prices. With audio, the quality is in the sound and people are choosing not to pay attention to the sound, or there would be a stronger mid-range market. As for other electronics, the quality is often in the durability. But durability becomes less of a factor when items are at throw away prices (e.g. Palm M105 at $80 on sale) or when new features/faster models become available every few months.
One minor point, if you use a 25V cap on the 5V rails the cap will be less effective at high frequencies. The real problem is that the working life of the caps is very low these days, partly because they are Viet Cong crap, but also because consumer A/V equipment often runs very hot (nobody likes to use fans any more), and heat reduces lifetime. Hint - if your cable TV or satellite box goes bad, open it up and replace all the electrolytic caps and there is at least a 75% chance it will start working again.
Yeah, I know. "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics." But there are, believe it or not, good studies out there among the bad. Just once, for pure novelty's sake, I wish /.'ers would try looking at/pointing to one instead of the hacknied "I'm pulling this stat out of my ass. Or the mouth of my sister's friend's brother's cousin who once worked for X company."
The quality of consumer electronics may or may not have declined. Bob may have bought a TV in '93 that didn't last as long as the one his family had in '75. Joe loves his snazzy new radio that's much better than the piece of junk on the market in the 80's. How do we know who's right? How about numbers like average defective returns? How about the average rate consumers replace their items? I'm sure there has to be some kind of reliable government/industry data out there. How about checking Consumer Reports?
Perhaps the quality of consumer electronics has gone down. But prima facie it sounds like "why, when I was a boy..." Certainly the quality of American cars these days is much better than in the 70's. The quality of medical care is better too. Long distance service is the best it's ever been since the invention of that machine. The point is, economics is all about constraints & competition. If a manufacturer can improve his profit margin by using poorer quality components, he will. If he has to improve the quality of his components to improve his profit margin, he will. It all depends.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
I beg to differ. Sometimes, you pay disproportionally more since the manufacturer has decided that by making a great market reputation for exclusiveness, they can skimp on quality. Look at Bang & Olufssen. Great looking product, possibly good lifetime (don't know), but the performance you are getting for your money is terrible.
The fundamental problem is actually that it is unprofitable to create high-quality products. That way, you would only sell new hardware when a new standard arises. By creating a lower quality product, they've ensured that some consumers are on their fifth cd player since they bought their first one in the late 80s.
Really. In statistics class, there was a lot of focus on tuning quality so that the products would be _just_ reliable enough. Being pseudo-buddhist, I prefer to think that things come back at you.
Stop the brainwash
Yes, you have it exactly right, as near as I can figure. Unfortunately, there's a problem. Economic "growth" based on exploiting natural and human resources is necessrily finite -- there's only a finite amount of natural and human resources to go around.
We as a species are already getting into trouble because of the (unintentional) consequenses of unfettered growth, such as increasing water scarcity, desertification, and pollution. These suggest there ought to be another way of looking at an economy (maybe redefine it as a "monetary ecology"?)...
After all, in most cases, you don't call unrestricted growth "good," you call it "cancer."
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
Having worked for a semiconductor company that supplies chips for consumer electronics, I have a little insight.
First, consumer electronics makers are cheap. They will do ANYTHING to save a buck on the bill of materials. If this means skimping on a power supply, or ommitting some protection circuits, they will do it. Their goals are 1) regulatory compliance (UL in the US) and 2) low RMA's.
Secondly, the consumer cannot distinguish "quality." They things that the consumer can see have no real relation to the quality of the design. How would you know if they power supply is very ripply? How would you know that they left out some filter capacitors. Price or brand is no indicator, that's all driven by marketting. For the consumer to determine the quality, they would have to take apart the device and then analyze it like an engineer. Doesn't happen. Reviews don't help-- the reviewer doesn't know anything either. Think of the quality test most consumers do of a stereo: they go to the store and turn up the volume. What does that tell them?
Also, the electronics that you buy today are considerably more complicated than that of yesteryear. Consider a stereo. Twenty years ago, it was just a collection of transistors and power supplies. Now they have micro controllers, DSP, codec's, etc. There is a lot more to go wrong. Pluse a lot more corner cutting that you can do. Besides, once you throw software into the mix, you get bugs.
Lastly, buy the $49 APEX DVD player. The part that will fail is going to be the DVD mechanism. Do you think there is a big difference between the one APEX buys and the one Sony buys? They're probably both made by TEAC.
Consumers have a huge advantage over salespeople. We can actually research the items we want in depth since we have the advantage of focussing on at most a handful of items.
An interesting theory, but actually flawed. Manufacturers have actually started to not publish specifications. I remember considering a Sony cassette deck about three or four years ago. Even basic specs were not published in the Sony catalog. It took a bit of hunting to find it.
Remember the Bad Old Days before most major vendors had their product info online? People were lucky to find any information anywhere.
What I remember was being able to get a one-page sheet for each and every component that I was considering the purchase of. The sheet had a big glossy photo of the product, rundown of the features, and VERY complete specifications. Try getting that now.
I think there are several reasons for lowering quality. I've been lamenting about the ever-decreasing quality in consumer goods for some time.
I think there are several reasons for the decline:
1. Products are getting more complex and competition more intense. Most consumer electronic products are very sophisticated compared to what was sold even 10 years ago. A DVD player is basically a miniature and specialized computer and it has a large software component. In my experience, most have some issues. There always seems to be some DVD that will hang a player. The increased competition forces manufacturers to get products out quickly. As soon as something new is introduced, everyone has to have it available. This leads to short cuts in testing, and they miss stuff.
2. Software quality is decreasing. This has been discussed before about PC software, but I believe it applies to embedded software as well. As everything is software controlled and there is so much more of it, there are more opportunities for bugs. I bought a top of the line Toshiba DVD player, as I wanted quality and features. I found that most DVD players were different just based on features (software features, at that, which makes it even cheaper for them with one set of hardware and multiple software downloads.) At least one DVD (Monster's Inc's bonus disc) could lock up the machine. It has usability issues, some common items like getting the time remaining takes 6 button clicks. However, it has tons of modes, options, zooms, navi-guides, virtual remote, etc. My new JVC TV, JVC VCR, new receivers, etc. all have large amounts of software behind the scenes. As an aside, I'd love it if there was a consumer electronics software standard where I could buy something, download their software and make changes and I'd be happy to customized and make it work better and share it with the world.
3. As mentioned, people look at price first. However, they aren't too smart. Some prices are increasing (e.g. grocery stores, department stores) because it's much harder to compare prices. But it's easy for electronics and other consumer goods (fans, lights, furniture, cookware, small appliances, etc.) Indeed, people by what's cheap. Everything is plastic and engineered with no room for error. Small manufacturing defects cause complete product failure. Now my new DVD play sometimes can't retract the tray in all the way on the first try. This is after less than one year. Getting it repaired, even under warranty, is such a pain. My two-year-old JVC SVHS VCR sometimes won't take a tape. They are all plastic, of course. I bought a window fan that was like 90% plastic that was dropped in the packaging, and broke due to insufficient supports on the motor. No room for error. At least one can still get high-quality furniture! Is there any furniture you get at Walmart, target or Ikea that you'd honestly want to "pass down" to your children? (As anything other than firewood?)
4. Marketing is another problem. People used to research big purchases on specifications (at least all my friends did, or they'd ask someone more knowledgeable.) People are now more apt to make an impulsive purchase. Plus, now they look at which TV is brighter, or which one "looks better" or has catching buzz phrases, "new technology", etc. In fact, read Sound and Vision magazine, most TVs come set to bright they will burn themselves out! They do this so they look better on the showroom floor. Newer isn't always better. I bought a new Seimens 2.4 GHz because it looked interesting and my brother loved them. I sent 5 back under warranty. I even got the technician to admit that 2.4 GHz technology is inferior to 900 MHz DSS as it is more susceptible to interference and can't go through objects as good (walls, trees, etc.) Of course, everyone is now convinced that the higher the MHz, the better! They even advertise longer range, but then compared to old 900 MHz analog phones. I can't even get outside my garage with my 2.4 GHz phone, but can get to my neighbors with my 900 MHz DSS. Now we have 5.8 GHz, good luck!
5. Incompatibilities are growing (many as a result of the RIAA, MPAA). So you want that new HTDV set? Well, the tuner won't work on cable. The digital out from your new cable box is incompatible with your set's input. Gee, you can't run digital audio from your DVD-Audio player to your receiver. How many multi-channel audio formats to we need? DVD-Audio, Super Audio, DTD, Dolby Digital, etc. Can't connect your DVD player to your VCR if you run out of inputs (Macrovision), can't do proper bass management for multi-channel audio, some DVD player can't play CD-Rs, some can't play DVD-RW, some can't play DVD-RAM, some play MP3, but not VBR MP3. How many of us have a computer that's only a few years old that won't even run the latest Windows?
6. Buying habits are another coupled with planned obsolescence. People like getting new stuff, so why make it last 10 years? Why get a DVD player that will last 10 years, when we'll have super DVD or HD-DVD to make it all obsolete. Why make a PC last 4 years, when it will be a doorstop in 2? Sure you could get a nice new TV today, but after everything moves to digital, you'll need a box or a new TV. It's easier to get a new TV.
So, I buy much less stuff than I used to. At least there is some measure of quality remaining in amateur radio!
I don't know, but it works for me.