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Miyamoto vs. Everyone Else
Ian_Bailey writes "Wired writes Nintendo won't grow up, because of Shigeru Miyamoto. The creator of some of the most popular franchises, and the head of most of Nintendo's creative development, constantly aims his games at children. Many other devloppers admire his creativity, and believe that a mature-themed game would rock the entire industry. A very interesting read, and a bit of insight into the 'God of Games'."
No mature themed games? What about Conker's Bad Fur Day?
Miyamoto's games aren't aimed at kids, per se. They're aimed at the young at heart, those that can set aside their preconceived notions and enjoy a game regardless of how "realistic" or "mature" it is.
I've been playing the Japanese import of the GameCube "Legend of Zelda" game, and it's easily the best game ever made, irrespective of it's "toon-shading".
So what's wrong with colorful graphics and cartoonish characters? Do games have to feature gore and ultra-violence to be entertaining? Hell no.
Other console companies aiming for the adult market (like most xbox and ps2 titles); Nintendo is a breath of fresh air for those people still buying for their kids.
You can count on the nintendo offerings to be kid friendly and family oriented. I'll admit that's not really my cup of tea, but it's definitely the strong part of the market for Nintendo.
Any deviation from that plan would be a mistake in my opinion.
Ñ'
Seamus Blackley of MS says: .... He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."
;) .
"He is not helping things
What? All Miyamoto has done throughout his career is making truly awesome and different games!! The idea of a platform game (the original mario); the epic action adventure (zelda series); bringing videogames into 3D (mario 64). Virtually every project he has made or simply produced has been stellar.
Pikmin is a great example of a 'different' game. Has anyone played the latest Metroid (Prime)- the BEST GAME ever. And the next Zelda will be out in March (Metroid may have a short-lived stay at the top).
I've been a videogamer since 85, so I know what this man has brought to every console generation. Nintendo might have to freeze this guy like Disney froze Walt
I liked the article in general though - this man is truly a GOD. I don't care if his games are cutesy - they are the BEST!
smd4985
I am a 30 year old gamer, I currently own and enjoy games in all three consoles, and I enjoy playing games like Splinter Cell and Eternal Darkness as I do Ape Escape and Sonic. I enjoy a game because it is addictive, it makes me want to play it more and, sometimes, because I like the story. Not because it has an adult theme, whatever that might be.
To finish of, I will say the following: the current generation of games has been spoilt with stupidly complex, hyper-hyped games with idiotic stories without any real substance (the last three Final Fantasy games being the best example) that they cannot appreciate that a game has to be innovative, simple and addictive to be good. There were no such things as "adult games" ten-fifteen years ago, yet people got by... I am looking forward to Zelda coming out in Europe, as I am sure lots of thirtysomething /.ers are. I am hoping it will maintain the standards set by Ocarina of time and Majora's mask and I do not care in the least whether the graphics are "childish" or not. Play the game, I say, not look at it.
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
It's my personal belief that because the "computer graphics" industry is so young, we're still trying to pack as much realism into our games as possible.
I think as the medium matures, we'll start to see more interesting and abstract art forms immerging from graphics. Games that are based around gameplay, will start to take over again, as graphics become something that you can manipulate the way you want to.
The graphics should become a way to help create an environment for the game. It shouldn't be the reason for creating the game.
~ "When I'm of that age I'm just going to live up a tree."
Yes, please Mr. Miyamoto, give me a game with sex and drugs and violence. My pathetic mind can't possibly be interested in fantastic gamplay. I need to see a little breast and some ass in order really like a game. Those boring games like Super Mario World just don't interest me. Couldn't I get to see the Princess' goods? How about throwing in a few pimps and whores? Don't you know that I don't play games for the gameplay?.
OK, for one, this article totally glosses over Metroid Prime, which was an excellent game, and definitely had me a little freaked out and scared for Samus' mortality. not really a game aimed at preteens...
second, i kind of take offense at the idea that a game that doesn't drip with gore isn't aimed at adults. maybe i don't go for the garish motif of games like the Quake series. it's not because i'm unprepared to handle it; it's just that i think it's... tacky.
third, if you look at the general population of adults (not just adult gamers), i think kids are more likely to be able to wrap their minds around videogames than adults. it's sort of a stereotype, but it's true.. how many kids do you know that could wipe the floor with their parents and older relatives with any head-to-head game? so saying a game is "just aimed at kids" is sort of misunderstanding the situation a bit, imho.
Just raise the taxes on crack.
Interestingly enough I find many of my friends (18-30) still play games. GTA3, State of Emergency, Hitman, etc. are all really violent and have adult themes. They are also only as entertaining as your attention span is long. On the other hand most of my friends pick up the Nintendo titles for thier replay value, unique themes, and solid track record. Pikman was fun, differant, and entertaining time and time again. The Zelda series have been some of the best games I've played and I look forward to the Gamecube release. Many of my friends feel the same.
So while the gamers have gotten older, the desire to game hasn't necessarily changed. Many gamers look for solid games with more than just adult themes. If I want to play an adult themed game I can pick up any of a thousand variations. If I want to play a challenging, unique game that is going to keep me interested I don't have much to choose from. I feel Nintendo fills this niche even more than the family oriented nature of the games.
Article summary:
He's built a huge, successful company. It's still doing well. He's always advanced the state of the art. His games are well designed. They get critical praise, and most sell in numbers that other companies would kill for. But, he didn't great GTA, so he sucks.
A.
My main problem with this article is with Seamus Blackley opening up his mouth.
I'll be honest - the Xbox has some cool ideas to it - I like the hard drive, I like the speed, and the graphics look nice. That Mr. Blackley can be proud of.
On the other hand, can somebody please tell me what game Mr. Blackley has made that was actually fun? Trespasser? (Lord, God, protect us.)
Mr. Blackley is a very good technical person and programmer - when it comes to things like physics, or making complex systems work, he's somebody to talk to.
The problem is he obviously does not know jack shit about what makes a fun game - him spouting off about how Miyamato is maintaining gaming stereotypes is the stupidest thing I've ever seen.
Miyamato has spent almost 20 years making games that are fun - always different, usually surprising and innovative. What, we're going to critique Miyazaki because he makes Spirited Away instead of "Animated Blood, Gore and Guts II"?
Miyamato has the freedom to make whatever games he likes - and I know this sounds fanboyish, but I like them. I have yet to play one that I didn't enjoy, that didn't give me hours of fun and wild-eyed enjoyment, sometimes fast and frantic (Starfox), sometimes thoughtful (Mario Brothers Sunshine), sometimes just beautiful (Pikmin and Zelda: The Wind Waker), and sometimes epic (Zelda: The Ocarina of Time).
I like a good violent romp as much as the next gamer - but when I want to play a game that does more than push my adrenaline button, you always come home to Miyamato. And I honestly thing that Mr. Blackley is a little bit jealous of that - because when the time comes, Blackley will be a footnote of gaming history, and Miyamato will be an entire book in itself.
Of course, I could be wrong.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
I think this quote by Miyamoto from the article sums it up best-
""People often talk about Grand Theft Auto. But I am not sure whether that sort of extreme subject matter is always appropriate. They also talk about the future of games being a kind of virtual reality. But I am not convinced that being more realistic makes better games."
More power to him. GTA3 is all bloody and "realistic", to be sure, but there's a reason why i've always seemed to have a copy of a Mario Bros. game at hand for the better part of 10 years now. I play games to escape reality, not to simulate it.
I'm 22 years old, and I think there's enough blood, guts, and violence in life already...Give me something bright, intricate, and engaging(and yes, "kiddy") with his name on it above the latest 3D shooter junk any day.
I know what a fantastic business person you are dirvish, but you have to remember, not everyone can be as good as you. Yes, you may be able to manage Nintendo 10 times better than it's currently run, but you have to understand, you're extremely gifted. You shouldn't brag about it.
I'm not saying you shouldn't use the skills you've been given, just don't rub it in someone's face if they don't have the natural talent you do. I'm sure they already feel bad enough about it as it is.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Children's games? I think not! Miyamoto creates GOOD games. HE focuses on playability and FUN. His games don't involve decaptiations, sex, nasty violent episodes, crime sprees, or insane murders. They are for playing and having fun. And he does it VERY VERY well. People of all ages enjoy his games, he is actually targetting a much larger demographic than most people who produce "mature" games. He makes games that you can sit down and play with your dad, and your 8 year old cousin, and all of you will have fun playing it.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
I also reckon that shying away from the photo-realistic eye-candy approach also means that you have to focus on gameplay which I quite often feel is sadly lacking from a lot of the more "modern adult games"
The only Good System is a Sound System
He is not helping things," says Seamus Blackley, the former head of Microsoft's Xbox team who now runs the Capital Entertainment Group...[Blackley] speaks for many game designers...who admire the master's work but are desperate for something new.
"At this point," Blackley continues, "Miyamoto is making games for his fans. Granted, there are millions of them, and it's smart business, but most are kids. He's not opening up adult audiences. He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."
Who the FSCK does Blackley think he is? He's a shoddy co-designer of the Xbox who stepped down to head a non-existent software company who has yet to demonstrate they do anything but blow smoke up each others' asses all day about how great the Xbox is. And he's criticizing Shigeru Miyamoto?
Miyamoto created this industry. After the gaming crash of the late 80's (Atari generation) it was the Famicom from Nintendo that reinvigorated the industry, bringing it back from the brink of extinction. And why was the Famicom (NES outside Japan) so successful? It was successful because of Super Mario Brothers and The Legend of Zelda, both coming from Shiggy. There was no side-scroller before Super Mario Brothers. There was no top-down adventure/RPG before Zelda. He invented the fscking genre and Seamus FSCKING Blackley is doubting him?
Oh, and my favorite part: "He's reinforcing stereotypes." If that stereotype is "A whole helluva lot of fun" then he's right. But what Blackley is referring to is the "video games are for kids" stereotype. This coming from a guy who openly endorced BMX XXX, the most immature piece of donkey shit ever to be published on a video game console, chock full of hot dog vendors talking about "huge weiners" and dogs humping on the sidewalk. Apparently, Blackley thinks video games are for immature 6th graders who can't get a hold of a porno magazine.
Shigeru Miyamoto is a genius. He continues to develop innovative games, even 22 years after Donkey Kong was first programmed. Anybody who doubts me should look at Pikmin and the latest Zelda. To see a third-rate hack insult him infuriates me.
In computing terms, this is like the man responsible for programming Clippy telling Linus Torvalds that he's washed up and is holding back the computer industry with his old software. Complete bullshit, and I'm not afraid to say it (and subsequently get modded down).
I expected to see people raving about how much crap Nintendo games are. They're kiddy games etc. Thankfully few people have chimed in with that garbage.
People make fun of me for owning a Gamecube. Why would I play a bunch of goofy little kids games? I say, since when did I need to play video games to feel grown up? I can go down a couple blocks to the bad part of town, or watch the news to see violence and war. I want to get away from that for a little while.
I wish there was some there was some way that I could be outside playing basketball, in the rain, and not get wet.
Miyamoto did guide Metroid Prime quite a bit. He was the one who came up with the idea of the 'visor effects' that make the game so immersive, and some other influences on gameplay.
Just because you played Nitendo games as a kid doesn't mean that they have to suit you. This is like expecting Fisher Price to grow up with you and make sex toys now that you're 22. C'mon, if they want to target kids, let them do so, it's a hell of a profitable market really. Let Playstation 2 be the adult toy.
Miyamoto's games--and Nintendo's games in general--are targeted toward all ages, with the exception of a group from about 15-25 who reject them as being remnants of the childhood they have left behind. The typical pattern is:
:)
Ages 6-14: "These games are great fun!"
Ages 15-25: "Nintendo games are for kids! I want mature games!" [Where "mature" means either dark science fiction or extreme violence.]
Ages 26+: "These games are great fun!"
It's been amusing to watch how often this occurs. You can see kids hit an age where the reject Mario and flock toward stuff like Resident Evil. Then after a while they work through it all and just play what's fun. Most of the time. Some people never give it up
Look the only people who are too 'mature' for bright colors and kiddy themed games are 12-14 year old boys.
Truly mature people can appreciate the quality of the game weather it has lots of blood and guts or if it doesn't. Adults can appreciate both Mario and Vice City.
The only truly adult games I can think of (besides porn, I mean) are the hard-core simulations, like Gran Tourismo or to a certain extent counterstrike.
Anyway, Nintendo has plenty of money. They can hire more 'sophisticated' artists if they want to.
I say let Miyamoto do what he wants. Don't try to control a genious.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
As far as I can tell, Miyamoto's "Donkey Kong" predates any other platform game, however, Adventure for the Atari2600 predates Legend of Zelda... so... Another interesting first is that BattleZone predates any other first person shooter. So id software didn't invent the FPS.
In fact, nearly all of the main video game genres were created before 1990. So it isn't hard to argue that most games released these days are derivative.
This is silly. Miyamoto is the guy that produced Metroid Prime. Without him, it probably wouldn't have been the same. He was essentially in charge of overseeing that game- and it's far from a child's game.
This whole "kiddy" criticism of Nintendo really needs to stop. Miyamoto's games are usually brilliant. He actually realizes that he can make awesome games without hookers and crack dealers. It shows you that he is in it to make awesome games- not just make a quick buck like the folks at companies like Rockstar Games.
It's too bad that people just don't appreciate it. So what? Pikmin and Mario are cute games. They are still loads of fun. Everyone's knocking the new Zelda game because of its cartonish, cell-shaded look. But they won't be dissing it when it totally blows them away.
I think that the funniest part of the article was where Blackley, the XBox guy was like, "he's not helping the industry, he's hurting it," i guess because this genius believes, like someone who had heard about darwin but doesn't really get it, that game development is going somewhere in particular -- in this case, the guy clearly assumes that selling games to people who won't buy something without a lot of blood would mean that games have 'made it'.
What a moron. You've got the guy, the only guy who has like ten multi-million sellers under his belt, the guy who brought the console back and brought us Zelda with it, a guy who has been through two video game recessions and helped see to it that they gross more than hollywood, and he's not helping games. Ahem. Pardon me, Seamus, but how are XBox sales?
I appreciate the fact that lots of people think that games are for kiddies, and surely Miyamoto's not doing a lot in the way of evangelizing to those poeple. And I'm glad, because every minute he spends doing that (for what, by the way?) he's not making the next Pikmin or Mario or Zelda.
god is just pretend.
Hmmm... Let's see. He was only the *PRODUCER* of Metroid Prime.
I totally agree with you.
The problem is because of all the technical skills needed to makes games these days. For example, programmers working on the PS2 need a good working knowledge of assembly to pull off some of the more advanced tricks and features of other consoles.
Maybe one day proper toolkits will be made and sold for cheap to developers to create fun games, while they purchase virtual actors to place in their game without the need to create models and animate that for all the actions. That way designers can focus on the content, simmilar to the independant scenes in audio and video now.
But now, when systems are so complex and gamers crave innovation every game needs its own engine, something that requires months of work, games do indeed need to make a profit to work. It has been recently emphasised by execs that the games industry is becoming a 'hit' industry, where 5% of the games account for 95% of the profits.
Of course, you can avert this kind of problem from happening. Buy games that were made by small teams, or didn't need as large as a budget, or aren't doing so well. Let the companies know that you appreciate their efforts. Help spread the hype away from the Metroid Primes and the Halos and the GTAs.
For me, the king of games is Richard Garriott. No other series ever gave me more hours of gameplay and satisfaction than the Ultima series did.
YES! The whole, "Lest get our your CD-ROM and Mouse Drivers to fit in 22K adventure" in Untima 7 was Brilliant. And that was done without FMV, Porn or even Graphics! I sepent two days on that part of the adventure alone, and sometimes, to feel nostalgic, I fire up the GERNERIC kernel of FreeBSD and compile in a sound-card driver.
Fun! Fun! Fun!
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
It may be worth noting that Mario Sunshine has not set any real sales records. In Japan, it has still not even broken a million copies being out for almost a year. In fact, it is only hovering around 700,000 copies, with is rather disappointing considering the hype of the title.
It has fared a bit better in the US, selling about 810,000 so far. But, overall, it is rather lackluster performance from a rather lackluster (in my opinion) game.
Also, I saw one poster say that Miyamoto produced Metroid Prime. This is only half-correct. Miyamoto was a representitive from Nintendo HQ in overseeing the development of Metroid Prime. Retro Studios came up with the concept, and did all the work. They deserve pretty much all the credit, not Miyamoto.
While one can respect Miyamoto for his achivements, many people in the industry only respect him for his reputation and past work. His recent works has fared rather lackluster in the market, and most critisize him for trying to simplify his games too much. (Such as his goal that all games be playable with only two buttons.)
Miyamoto is not "God", as some would put it, but mearly a very talanted game designer. There are many others that are quite talanted (such as Yuji Naka, Hideo Kojima, or Shinji Mikami for instance) but don't get the recognition due to lack of the "star" status.
I realize this is an unpopular view among the Slashdot crowd, but it's more of the view from inside the gaming industry.
Just some friendly perspective... =)
-Jayde
What's a sig?
This discussion will continue to falter so long as "mature" remains code for "juvenile." In most cases I've seen "mature" game is one with blood, boobs, and base language. But this is not truly mature; it's really juvenile since it is appealing to a person's base instincts. Likewise, "childish" is code for "cartoon." It has little to do with the game story or themes.
An easy example is found in movies: "Toy Story 2" is considered a "kiddie movie" because it's a cartoon. Though it readily appeals to children, it addresses the mature themes of friendship, loss, and death.
Likewise, most "mature" action movies are largely juvenile, appealing to people's desire to see stuff get blowed up real good. They don't actually have any mature themes.
I welcome truly mature games, and there are some out there. But let's make the discussion easier by not mislabeling the juvenile games as "mature" and not calling games "kiddie" just because they have bright colors.
ShoutingMan.com
Higginbotham's 'bouncing spot on an oscilloscope' hack in the fifties could only be called a video game in the broadest possible sense of the word. It was a nice hack but it never went anywhere, and the man himself didn't see the potential in it either.
As to Bushnell and Baer, they started the arcade and home video games industries, for which all credit is due to them, but I wouldn't call them great video game designers. Great businessmen, yes.
Miyamoto has been a visionary in many of his games, ahead of his contemporaries, over a period of several decades. Even if you insist on drawing a line from Bushnell & Baer to Miyamoto, I think you will have to admit that the student has surpassed the masters.
Great games
The sales of his Mario series alone has done $7billion. Comparison in the article to the Star Wars movies doing only $3.5billion.
His games are entertaining, and playable. A kid can enjoy them all, and adults usally enjoy most of them. Just because you are the opinion that his games suck, or are lame, boring, whatever; is fine. There are other games out there for you. But there should be games for the little guys too, just as there were when we were younger (I was 10 when the NES came out).
I say let Sony and Microsoft ignore the 'kids games' and let the master do what he shall.
I've been a fan of Conker's BFD since I bought it for less than ten bucks at a K-Mart that was going out of business. But I think the pile of BFD's on the ruins of the department store's electronics counter shows the problem: people (that is, the mindless herd, not we the enlightened) can't handle cognitive dissonance.
Conker, the main character, is terribly cute. He curses and fights with a singing monster named the Great Mighty Poo.
Begin mental meltdown...
The game is cute and gameplay is intuitive and fun. One scene involves enticing a big breasted sunflower into intimate relations with a drunken king bee.
TILT!
Faced with this situation, Nintendo took what I suppose was the only logical path: they sold one of their hottest developer groups to rival Microsoft.
It was interesting to me that BFD was one of the last N-64 games... one review I read described it as "the last must-have N-64 game." I saw a kid-friendly Game Boy game featuring Conker the Squirrel at Blockbuster, but didn't rent it... what would be the point? That character is indelibly linked, in my mind, to the Song of the Great Mighty Poo.
So it wasn't too huge a surprise to me when I read the news that Microsoft had bought Rare from Nintendo. I don't know how Rare managed to get Conker out Nintendo's door, but I'm guessing that someone wasn't too happy about it.
I sure wouldn't want to buy anything from the Redmond Empire... but if BFD-2 comes out for X-Box, I may have to put my moral compass back in the box. That said, I like the idea that I can turn to Nintendo for kid-friendly games that -- hopefully -- won't put the adults to sleep.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
" Seamus Blackley of MS says: .... He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome.""
"He is not helping things
And that right there is the huge difference between Miyamoto and Sony and Microsoft. Miyamoto has never "pushed" in his life. He doesn't make games to "push the technological envelope" (but they usually end up doing so). He doesn't make games to "push to a new demographic" (which he doesn't need to do, he hits everybody).
Miyamoto writes games! Miyamoto games are the perfect example of ars gratia artis. He doesn't make these games for the money or the fame, he writes them for himself. Which is exactly why he gets all the money and the fame.
It's just a shame so many people refuse to understand this one simple concept.
This article reminds me a lot of the old American football saying, about how fans give their coach too much blame when the team loses and too much credit when the team wins. American McGee's comment is a great example of this:
"Grand Theft Auto is basically a rip-off of Zelda, because Zelda invented massive-world games that let players explore freely, rather than following a linear path. Miyamoto innovates, so he's pushing the form. End of story."
I'm sorry, but Ultima III and the Wizardry series were doing massive-world free-exploration games long before the NES even existed. And even those had predecessors. And from the way this article sounds, you'd think Miyamoto was the first to ever use 3D or a camera in a game.
This seems to be an underlying theme in the article -- that the video game industry is looking to Miyamoto for guidance, blaming him for not guiding them in the right way, and giving him way too much credit for its current state. It's as if Miyamoto is successful due to some magic he alone possesses, rather than because he was able to build on lessons of the past in the right ways.
It seems ridiculous to me.