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Miyamoto vs. Everyone Else
Ian_Bailey writes "Wired writes Nintendo won't grow up, because of Shigeru Miyamoto. The creator of some of the most popular franchises, and the head of most of Nintendo's creative development, constantly aims his games at children. Many other devloppers admire his creativity, and believe that a mature-themed game would rock the entire industry. A very interesting read, and a bit of insight into the 'God of Games'."
No mature themed games? What about Conker's Bad Fur Day?
Miyamoto's games aren't aimed at kids, per se. They're aimed at the young at heart, those that can set aside their preconceived notions and enjoy a game regardless of how "realistic" or "mature" it is.
I've been playing the Japanese import of the GameCube "Legend of Zelda" game, and it's easily the best game ever made, irrespective of it's "toon-shading".
So what's wrong with colorful graphics and cartoonish characters? Do games have to feature gore and ultra-violence to be entertaining? Hell no.
and believe that a mature-themed game would rock the entire industry.
The average demographic for video games is not as badly skewed towards pubescent males as it once was - I think I remember reading somewhere that the median age was between 19-20. If the target audience is growing up, Nintendo will probably alienate people who would prefer more mature themes - and 'mature' does not necessarily have to connote sex - unless they wake up.
That aside, I admire the man for his principles.
Mature as in "This is not for kids, this contains violence", or "this is something that belongs at www.somethingawful.com/hentai" ? If it's 'adult' in the sense of 'hentai' then let's just leave it where it is. If it's adult as in 'not a kids video game' then they should move forward...
Other console companies aiming for the adult market (like most xbox and ps2 titles); Nintendo is a breath of fresh air for those people still buying for their kids.
You can count on the nintendo offerings to be kid friendly and family oriented. I'll admit that's not really my cup of tea, but it's definitely the strong part of the market for Nintendo.
Any deviation from that plan would be a mistake in my opinion.
Devloppers strikes me as a very funny word. Sounds like management, lopping developers heads off.
Maybe someone should devlop Miyamoto.
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
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yeah, he keeps making "kiddy" games, But he makes inovation in design and came up with ,well we all know what hes done. While i do enjoy mature games, i dont see the problem with not making them, he doesnt want to, what would be so much better about a mature game? blood? guns? and there are other people making mature games that are good, so we should all be happy nintendo makes "kiddy" games that ARE good
there was a game on one of the commadore or atari systems (I had both, many versions) called Mario Brothers. Luigi and mario were in a 'joust' style repeating side scroller with pipes, shell turtles, enemies and all before Super Mario Brothers on NES came out. It was by far my fav of the series. He always manages brilliant games.
pm
** "It's not my job to stand between the people talking to me, and the ones listening to me." -- Pego the Jerk
I've never really considered "metroid" a kid's game either. Some of the plot is best enjoyed by more audiences, and the animation is more of a dark and sinister at times rather than comical.
I don't understand why the poster believes that if Miyamoto produced a mature-themed game would "rock the world".
In my gaming experience, the level of maturity has very little to do with how well the game plays, it's much more of a "target the audience" marketing tool than a game design choice.
Besides, if Nintendo chose to shift to a more mature audience, they'd be going much more directly head-to-head with PS2 (a suicidal act, if anything.)
Seamus Blackley of MS says: .... He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."
;) .
"He is not helping things
What? All Miyamoto has done throughout his career is making truly awesome and different games!! The idea of a platform game (the original mario); the epic action adventure (zelda series); bringing videogames into 3D (mario 64). Virtually every project he has made or simply produced has been stellar.
Pikmin is a great example of a 'different' game. Has anyone played the latest Metroid (Prime)- the BEST GAME ever. And the next Zelda will be out in March (Metroid may have a short-lived stay at the top).
I've been a videogamer since 85, so I know what this man has brought to every console generation. Nintendo might have to freeze this guy like Disney froze Walt
I liked the article in general though - this man is truly a GOD. I don't care if his games are cutesy - they are the BEST!
smd4985
This all depends on how you look at it, I suppose - on one hand, the generation of kids who grew up with Nintendo are now in their twenties and thirties, and probably want games that have more mature themes, or that hark back to their favourite game characters from childhood (Notice Nintendo's heavy reliance on characters they created in the 1980's!).
OTOH, parents (hopefully) want a game console where most of the game titles would be "safe" for their children to play - Nintendo delivers.
Looks like Miyamoto wants Nintendo to take the latter.
Illegitimi non Carborundum.
I am a 30 year old gamer, I currently own and enjoy games in all three consoles, and I enjoy playing games like Splinter Cell and Eternal Darkness as I do Ape Escape and Sonic. I enjoy a game because it is addictive, it makes me want to play it more and, sometimes, because I like the story. Not because it has an adult theme, whatever that might be.
To finish of, I will say the following: the current generation of games has been spoilt with stupidly complex, hyper-hyped games with idiotic stories without any real substance (the last three Final Fantasy games being the best example) that they cannot appreciate that a game has to be innovative, simple and addictive to be good. There were no such things as "adult games" ten-fifteen years ago, yet people got by... I am looking forward to Zelda coming out in Europe, as I am sure lots of thirtysomething /.ers are. I am hoping it will maintain the standards set by Ocarina of time and Majora's mask and I do not care in the least whether the graphics are "childish" or not. Play the game, I say, not look at it.
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
Personally I hope Miyamoto and Nintendo keep making kid oriented games. I am a father of 2.5 kids and my two oldest like playing video games with dad ocassionally. Now I would much rather have a nice and happy light themes of Nintendo's usual fare than the hard core action/destruction that Xbox seems to be focused on. However, I do like the more mature oriented games when the kids have gone to bed, etc, which is why I will prolly end up having both a game cube and Xbox eventually. I bet MS would sell a heck of lot more Xbox's if they made a few more family oriented games.
When you're making a game where you only have a few bytes to describe the character, you have to think up something creative or else the character will be boring or won't make sense. So, he thinks up a plumber who always wears red and his brother who prefers green. Mario gets a few extra pixels around his stomach.
But now, with full 3-D games, they could make whatever characters they wanted to. Your character could look like a relatively normal peson because you could display all kinds of little subtleties that would be impossible when you're working in 4 or 8 bit. But we're seeing the original 8 bit characters like Mario or Donkey Kong translated into full 3D. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's kind of funny if you think about it. I think limitations encourage creativity.
I'm thinking there will be another Video Game crash. Too many systems, way too many games. Just like how Atari went down.
All the games on the market are crappy racing games, crappy first person shooters, or crappy RPG's.
He's working on mariokart for the cube right now right? Seeing that I've been playing the last one for the last 7 years, I havent really had time to read up on when the next one should be due out. Have any of those rumor sites said anything beyond "yeah 2001 sometime"?
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
[obscure nintendo ref:]Hey, is Ian Bailey related to Justin?[/obscure nintendo ref]
A rolling stone is worth two in the bush!
It's my personal belief that because the "computer graphics" industry is so young, we're still trying to pack as much realism into our games as possible.
I think as the medium matures, we'll start to see more interesting and abstract art forms immerging from graphics. Games that are based around gameplay, will start to take over again, as graphics become something that you can manipulate the way you want to.
The graphics should become a way to help create an environment for the game. It shouldn't be the reason for creating the game.
~ "When I'm of that age I'm just going to live up a tree."
The target market these days is the twenty-something male. This guy is not a good business man if he is devoting most of Nintendo's resources to children's games.
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Yes, please Mr. Miyamoto, give me a game with sex and drugs and violence. My pathetic mind can't possibly be interested in fantastic gamplay. I need to see a little breast and some ass in order really like a game. Those boring games like Super Mario World just don't interest me. Couldn't I get to see the Princess' goods? How about throwing in a few pimps and whores? Don't you know that I don't play games for the gameplay?.
OK, for one, this article totally glosses over Metroid Prime, which was an excellent game, and definitely had me a little freaked out and scared for Samus' mortality. not really a game aimed at preteens...
second, i kind of take offense at the idea that a game that doesn't drip with gore isn't aimed at adults. maybe i don't go for the garish motif of games like the Quake series. it's not because i'm unprepared to handle it; it's just that i think it's... tacky.
third, if you look at the general population of adults (not just adult gamers), i think kids are more likely to be able to wrap their minds around videogames than adults. it's sort of a stereotype, but it's true.. how many kids do you know that could wipe the floor with their parents and older relatives with any head-to-head game? so saying a game is "just aimed at kids" is sort of misunderstanding the situation a bit, imho.
Just raise the taxes on crack.
Miyamoto is doing what he does best. You don't change what you are good at, especially if you hold a strong position in a specific niche of a market or industry. If Nintendo came out with their own gory or sexy video game, I really think it would flop. Just goes to show that you don't need sex and violence to make a great product that will be loved by millions.
devloppers! devloppers! devloppers! devloppers!
Get on your feet!
*does the steve ballmer monkey dance*
I dont think nintendo really had a reputation for developing games aimed at children until Nintendo 64 came out. Up until then you had some amazing titles that, while not full of gore were still not "aimed" at children.
Castlevania, Megman, Metroid . Come on, these games were just amazing. In fact they still are. But Nintendo has ceased to develop quality, wide audience games (w/ the exception of maybe zelda) and has instead mass produced crap for children under age fourteen.
Why cant they do both?
So he design more "childish" games, not "mature" ones. I would think that his track record speaks for itself. Mario. Zelda. Donkey Kong. You know, like, all of the biggest titles from Nintendo.
It's not like money is an issue for him or Nintendo. He could try and design anything he wanted, but this is what he want to do. No one can force him to design a "mature" game, and even if they could force him, his heart wouldn't be in it, and the game would suck.
Article summary:
He's built a huge, successful company. It's still doing well. He's always advanced the state of the art. His games are well designed. They get critical praise, and most sell in numbers that other companies would kill for. But, he didn't great GTA, so he sucks.
A.
My main problem with this article is with Seamus Blackley opening up his mouth.
I'll be honest - the Xbox has some cool ideas to it - I like the hard drive, I like the speed, and the graphics look nice. That Mr. Blackley can be proud of.
On the other hand, can somebody please tell me what game Mr. Blackley has made that was actually fun? Trespasser? (Lord, God, protect us.)
Mr. Blackley is a very good technical person and programmer - when it comes to things like physics, or making complex systems work, he's somebody to talk to.
The problem is he obviously does not know jack shit about what makes a fun game - him spouting off about how Miyamato is maintaining gaming stereotypes is the stupidest thing I've ever seen.
Miyamato has spent almost 20 years making games that are fun - always different, usually surprising and innovative. What, we're going to critique Miyazaki because he makes Spirited Away instead of "Animated Blood, Gore and Guts II"?
Miyamato has the freedom to make whatever games he likes - and I know this sounds fanboyish, but I like them. I have yet to play one that I didn't enjoy, that didn't give me hours of fun and wild-eyed enjoyment, sometimes fast and frantic (Starfox), sometimes thoughtful (Mario Brothers Sunshine), sometimes just beautiful (Pikmin and Zelda: The Wind Waker), and sometimes epic (Zelda: The Ocarina of Time).
I like a good violent romp as much as the next gamer - but when I want to play a game that does more than push my adrenaline button, you always come home to Miyamato. And I honestly thing that Mr. Blackley is a little bit jealous of that - because when the time comes, Blackley will be a footnote of gaming history, and Miyamato will be an entire book in itself.
Of course, I could be wrong.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
"The most important thing is for games to be fun," [Miyamoto] says. "I cannot tell you exactly what that means. It is something you feel, I think."
Ya know, that should be so intuitively obvious, but you look at so many games these days and it seems like this fundamental rule is not followed nearly as often as it should be.
I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
What kills me, are all these self proclaimed 'advanced' developers making all these crappy games like GTA. What they don't seem to get is that their games aren't selling because they make good games. Their games are selling because the masses don't/can't/won't look beyond surface imagery. It's the same reason why television in North America is so 'blue collar', why books are a dying breed, why movies may as well just be porn for all the quality that exists in them.
Miyamoto's games shed the simple trappings of 'image' and give you substance. THAT's why they're so successful in the longterm. In 10 years, will anyone even remember GTA except as another flash in the pan violent-and-gritty-to-get-publicity games? Not likely. Will they remember Zelda, Mario, etc? Absolutely.
Console markets are cyclic (just like everything). Eventually the kids playing GTA will grow up and see that there's more to life than appearance (whether it be looking cool, glamorous, dark, etc.) and that it's the fun-factor that makes them play games. Of course, then we'll see a flood of cutesy games that suck...
- Z
There's a fine line between genius and stupidity. Genius has limits.
My wife surprised me for Christmas this year and bought me a GameCube. She couldn't hook it up to the TV (*grin*) but there it was. Can't wait for availability of the broadband adapter, and some games next year which are geared for on-line play!
MORTAR COMBAT!
I think this quote by Miyamoto from the article sums it up best-
""People often talk about Grand Theft Auto. But I am not sure whether that sort of extreme subject matter is always appropriate. They also talk about the future of games being a kind of virtual reality. But I am not convinced that being more realistic makes better games."
More power to him. GTA3 is all bloody and "realistic", to be sure, but there's a reason why i've always seemed to have a copy of a Mario Bros. game at hand for the better part of 10 years now. I play games to escape reality, not to simulate it.
I'm 22 years old, and I think there's enough blood, guts, and violence in life already...Give me something bright, intricate, and engaging(and yes, "kiddy") with his name on it above the latest 3D shooter junk any day.
A very interesting read, and a bit of insight into the 'God of Games'.
:)
I thought that as a reader of Slashdot, John Carmack was our resident god of games?
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
I remember when I was back in high school in the late 1980s (mixed black & white), there were of course always groups of kids small and large who would talk about playing the old 8-bit Nintendo sysetm during study hall, lunch, and after school. Sure, a few of them were black, but most of the
kids in any given group were white.
I was watching TV today, and they were showing a packed school auditorium in a black neighborhood. As the camera panned the auditorium, I noticed that literally every single student was black. No whites whatsoever. And that got me to thinking: I wonder if groups of these kids in this school get together and play Nintendo Gamecube, X-Box, Playstation, etc. or any other console game system? Or, are they just culturally not interested in such things?
Is it the price? Is it a cultural thing (white people prefer games, blacks prefer sports)? Is it a DNA thing?
If you can shed any kind of insight into this, I'd appreciate it.
I also reckon that shying away from the photo-realistic eye-candy approach also means that you have to focus on gameplay which I quite often feel is sadly lacking from a lot of the more "modern adult games"
The only Good System is a Sound System
The need to attract new audiences is transforming gaming from a niche market to mainstream entertainment, and that means more grown-up fare.
Why? They already stated in the article that the gaming industry is huge. Mario has outsold Star Wars, a feat which ANY industry should be thrilled to attain. I believe the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies quite nicely here...nothing appears to be broken, people are still buying Nintendo games left and right. If they made more games like the old Nintendo 8bit games, I'd go out and buy them. Castlevania for the GBA? Total throwback to castlevania 1-3 on the Nintendo...I bought them and am still playing them both. Zelda, rereleased on the GBA? Absolutely, getting it ASAP.
Why should the paradigm started by Miyamoto change while it still has consumers and they aren't complaining?
--trb
...hope he doesn't change his style. It's actually pretty hard to find games these days that don't involve so much violence, gore, or sex, and there are too many people who forget that you don't need that stuff all the time to create great games.
With that in mind, can anyone name a PC game that can appeal to both young children and adults and (obviously) has no violence, gore, or sex? Didn't think so.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
For the first time in my life, I had no idea what a great game for the PC was, for the past 12 months of my life.
That's not to say I haven't been gaming it up. I have all of the newest Nintendo first party titles. Miyamoto is a breath of fresh air. He may not subscribe to the same gameplay as the rest of the designers, but his games which show obvious influence are amazing works, and help me brave this storm of realism, violent and sometimes team-based games inspired by Counterstrike and GTA3.
I do think it's ironic that the major trend in game development is to innovate by moving away from Miyamoto's style. We have a lot of innovation, but it's all heading in the same direction!
He is not helping things," says Seamus Blackley, the former head of Microsoft's Xbox team who now runs the Capital Entertainment Group...[Blackley] speaks for many game designers...who admire the master's work but are desperate for something new.
"At this point," Blackley continues, "Miyamoto is making games for his fans. Granted, there are millions of them, and it's smart business, but most are kids. He's not opening up adult audiences. He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome."
Who the FSCK does Blackley think he is? He's a shoddy co-designer of the Xbox who stepped down to head a non-existent software company who has yet to demonstrate they do anything but blow smoke up each others' asses all day about how great the Xbox is. And he's criticizing Shigeru Miyamoto?
Miyamoto created this industry. After the gaming crash of the late 80's (Atari generation) it was the Famicom from Nintendo that reinvigorated the industry, bringing it back from the brink of extinction. And why was the Famicom (NES outside Japan) so successful? It was successful because of Super Mario Brothers and The Legend of Zelda, both coming from Shiggy. There was no side-scroller before Super Mario Brothers. There was no top-down adventure/RPG before Zelda. He invented the fscking genre and Seamus FSCKING Blackley is doubting him?
Oh, and my favorite part: "He's reinforcing stereotypes." If that stereotype is "A whole helluva lot of fun" then he's right. But what Blackley is referring to is the "video games are for kids" stereotype. This coming from a guy who openly endorced BMX XXX, the most immature piece of donkey shit ever to be published on a video game console, chock full of hot dog vendors talking about "huge weiners" and dogs humping on the sidewalk. Apparently, Blackley thinks video games are for immature 6th graders who can't get a hold of a porno magazine.
Shigeru Miyamoto is a genius. He continues to develop innovative games, even 22 years after Donkey Kong was first programmed. Anybody who doubts me should look at Pikmin and the latest Zelda. To see a third-rate hack insult him infuriates me.
In computing terms, this is like the man responsible for programming Clippy telling Linus Torvalds that he's washed up and is holding back the computer industry with his old software. Complete bullshit, and I'm not afraid to say it (and subsequently get modded down).
I expected to see people raving about how much crap Nintendo games are. They're kiddy games etc. Thankfully few people have chimed in with that garbage.
People make fun of me for owning a Gamecube. Why would I play a bunch of goofy little kids games? I say, since when did I need to play video games to feel grown up? I can go down a couple blocks to the bad part of town, or watch the news to see violence and war. I want to get away from that for a little while.
I wish there was some there was some way that I could be outside playing basketball, in the rain, and not get wet.
For me, the king of games is Richard Garriott. No other series ever gave me more hours of gameplay and satisfaction than the Ultima series did.
Miyamoto is okay, I find games like Mario and Zelda to be fun for a few minutes here and there, but I just can't get into them. They're too... shallow. I know shallow is probably a bad word here as the levels are large, with hidden items abound, but the gameplay itself I find too simplistic. I feel limited by the game engine.
industry. They take themselves way too seriously.
emotionally engrossing, visually stunning, socially influential expressions that capture and inform the spirit of the times.
Hey man, it's just a stinkin game. Just like, hey man, it's just a stinkin movie. Not to say that you can't create art or entertainment that has some social significance, but that's not the point of the content. Media servers two primary purposes, to inform or to entertain. Any broader social relevance is few and far between.
Also, why the focus on "adult content"? As a medium to entertain, shouldn't that be the primary goal of the game, to entertain? If he enjoys creating games that happen to be very good and very successful, why would he need to change? Are people having significantly fewer kids so the kid market is not significant anymore? I would think that it is the complete opposite (well not that people are having more kids necessarily), but as adults view consoles and games as commonplace as the tv, more and more kids will be playing more and more games (though not necessarily on consoles), making that market more important.
I for one am glad that he's telling the "establishment" to bugger off. Funny how in a industry that claims to value independance and differentation, that people are trying to make one of it's most creative members conform.
In fall 2001, Nintendo's GameCube became the third entry in a hotly contested console battle that includes Sony's PlayStation 2 and Microsoft's Xbox. Currently, Sony has a commanding lead, with 40 million units sold, while Nintendo and Microsoft struggle for a distant second place with 6 million units each
While I would agree that the XBox and Playstation are in direct competition, it seems like Nintendo diferentiates itself enough to compete. Not only do they target the games differently, but Nintendo prices it's consoles $50 lower and puts them in bright colors. They don't play DVD's like PS2 or XBox. It seems like Nintendo's goal is to offer something a little different, less features for a lower price, and that could be a winning strategy. (Not to mention not using CD's as media cuts down on the mod chipping piracy)
Also, I wouldn't say all their fans are kids. 2 of my former coworkers, ages 22 and 27, were huge fans of Super Monkey Ball 3
I have blog like everyone else
I do not personally feel this way, I was actually paraphrasing Blackley:
There isn't anyone on the planet better at lasering into the lizard brain, that eye-attached-to-your-hand-attached-to-your-brain thing that makes it impossible to stop playing. GTA3 is good, but it's not revolutionary. What Miyamoto could bring to a game like that would be incredible.
I 'copied' the quote from memory, and misleadingly put quote marks around it.
I actually fully support Miyamoto and Nintendo, as I believe they are one of the few companies in the industry innovating anymore. I have recently purchased and been playing Animal Crossing and Metroid Prime. Very neat games.
Oooookaaaay. So those of use who used consoles in the 70's don't count? You truly want a pioneer, try Ralph Baer, Nolan Bushnell or Wally Higginbotham. Miyamoto is a great designer, but he stands on the shoulders of others.
Never mind that Metroid Prime was developed in Austin, Texas and Miyamoto didn't have a whole lot to do with the game let alone the design.
Miyamoto is truly innovative and a great game designer, but his innovations are not all encompassing. He focuses on the one player gaming experience. Nintendo is notably neglecting the online experience reportedly due to Miyamoto's direction.
I believe online has more than proven itself. Nintendo's stubornness to deny its gamers online experience will be seen as akin to their mistake in denying developers the CD medium (which they've finally caught up with in the GameCube with the proprietary mini-disc).
Miyamoto continues to break new ground and innovate but he does not address multiplayer issues. The online experience is open for a new generation of game designers. The PC game designers are likely to migrate to the consoles for a more controlled, reliable gaming platform, and the online gaming experience will eventually become the principal area for gaming and innovation.
Miyamoto trailblazed one player gaming. It'll be fun to see who trailblazes the next generation of games.
What many people may not realize at first thought is that keeping your game rated G is the best move you can make.
If you start inserting "adult" themes, you are most likely to insert "male fantasy" themes. Not only this alienates the kids, but also most of the potential female players.
But if you stay with the common lowest denominator, a "General" audience, then you are targeting the whole market. Of course this pressuposes that you are not targeting exclusively to kids by inserting repetitive old jokes (barney style), but instead focus on larger storytelling (zelda style) that people of all ages can relate to.
Then if your game is of superior quality, it will prevail. But designing these games are much harder than inserting "male fantasy", and that's why we get things such as BMX-XXX...
The ENIAC Demo Competition
Super Mario Bros. was the first game to present a world so complex and extensive it had to be mapped to be understood.
Pitfall, anyone?
You had to map it to understand the workings of the tunnels well enough to complete the game in the time limit.
In fact, I didn't think SMB needed to be mapped out due to the world structure.
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
Just because you played Nitendo games as a kid doesn't mean that they have to suit you. This is like expecting Fisher Price to grow up with you and make sex toys now that you're 22. C'mon, if they want to target kids, let them do so, it's a hell of a profitable market really. Let Playstation 2 be the adult toy.
Eternal Darkness was no sleeper hit. It actually performed very poorly, barely selling 100,000 in North America (from rough estimates).
*shrugs*
Well, I'm buying it this winter, maybe sales will pick up for Christmas...
Does a game have to feature ultra violence and gore to be entertaining? No, of course not, but it doesn't need to feature ultra violence and gore to be adult. Morrowind wasn't a gory or ultra violent game, per se, however it featured many adult themes (drugs, assassinations, etc). I have to draw the line at playing a game "for the young at heart" when they put too many kiddy themes into it. I don't go see Disney movies in the theatre, nor do I play Disney style games at home. Playing a game with a plumber who squirts things with a fruity watergun is just too childish for me. I like my movies to be witty and thought provoking, and I like my games to feature similar themes. No cutesy bunnies or pokemon style critters for me, thank you very much
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
I think that there's a lot of eltism too as the average gamer age continues to go up. Hardcore gamers continue to derride Myst, but the facts stand that it remains one of the best selling games ever. Hardcore gamers make fun of games that don't meet their standard (i.e. not hard enough, not long enough, not innovative), and they make it extremely difficult for new players to belong (i.e. noob killing in coutnerstrike, the ultima online debacle, etc). This elitism is what's bad for the industry too, because you don't grow an industry by excluding people. You grow it by expanding the number of people who love to play games, and that means some of them like easy to access games, which is what Miyamoto does extremely well. So to say Miyamoto is bad for the industry, is just plain dumb.
This is what Market segmentation is alla bout. i.e. separating different types of games to define who they compete against, and try to make their segment grow. I think he used a poor choice of words and an unfortunately poor article to make his point.
One more point - at what point is video game design an art? Miyamoto does what he does, and he does it well. He stays focused on family (not kids) games. He's earned his spot in the industry, and he can do whatever he wants. I'm sure if he wanted to do a niche hardcore game, then he would. He probably won't do it because Seamus told him so.
Miyamoto's games--and Nintendo's games in general--are targeted toward all ages, with the exception of a group from about 15-25 who reject them as being remnants of the childhood they have left behind. The typical pattern is:
:)
Ages 6-14: "These games are great fun!"
Ages 15-25: "Nintendo games are for kids! I want mature games!" [Where "mature" means either dark science fiction or extreme violence.]
Ages 26+: "These games are great fun!"
It's been amusing to watch how often this occurs. You can see kids hit an age where the reject Mario and flock toward stuff like Resident Evil. Then after a while they work through it all and just play what's fun. Most of the time. Some people never give it up
This kind of thinking is already beginning. Recently, Cel-shading has become popular, feature in Jet Set Radio Future, and the upcoming Zelda: The Wind Waker. It really takes the focus off numbers of polygons and places it on pure style.
When did Jon Katz start writing for Wired?
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
The only reason I can think he said that is because when Microsoft went to Nintendo and asked them if they would like to merge to create a console, Miyamato probably looked at what games they wanted to do, and who they wanted to target and said no. Microsoft has the biggest ego in this industry, and it wouldn't surprise me Blackley is still feeling burned that they couldn't buy out a genious like Miyamato. And with all these recent sales losses on the PortBox, it looks like Microsoft may be folding shop next XMas if the platform doesn't take off soon.
I like "kiddie-games". I have a lot of fun playing them even though I'm 34. Furthermore, these are games for the whole family, and for those of you who do have a family, you'll be very appreciative of this. To have the whole family together, having fun with some witty and innocent videogame, it's the best thing after playing together outside, or campling or other such stuff.
I don't believe those shoot-n-kill games (for one example) are really for mature audiences. They are rahter for young teenagers who think that this is the world of the adults, towards which they haplessly rush. Me, I admit I have never been like that, and that kind of game didn't attract me, but nowadays it simply repulses me.
That's why most of the X-box games are totally uninteresting to me. The Playstation has a few funny ones (like Spyro), but the Gamecube (as the NES earlier) is my choice.
Sigged!
Look the only people who are too 'mature' for bright colors and kiddy themed games are 12-14 year old boys.
Truly mature people can appreciate the quality of the game weather it has lots of blood and guts or if it doesn't. Adults can appreciate both Mario and Vice City.
The only truly adult games I can think of (besides porn, I mean) are the hard-core simulations, like Gran Tourismo or to a certain extent counterstrike.
Anyway, Nintendo has plenty of money. They can hire more 'sophisticated' artists if they want to.
I say let Miyamoto do what he wants. Don't try to control a genious.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
He HAS been moving forward, and I agree with you. The decision to being GBA games to your TV is where Nintendo will banish all thoughts of Nintendo doing the wrong thing. He has found a way to appeal to classic gamers who prefer amazing 2D based games (GBA Games), and those who like the latest 3D games (Gamecube Games), and has FUSED THEM TOGETHER onto one system, that both types can play on the TV. If this isn't making the impossible possible, then I dont know what is. Castlevania: SoTN was a glimpse into what people really wanted to play, yet they never followed up with more 2D side scrolling games. It looks like Miyamato will have to bring them all to the masses again without losing face by doing it directly on the console. You kill two birds with one stone. Everyone wins. Well, except Sony and Microsoft, but that's not really the topic at hand.
I still prefer getting out my old NES and playing RBI baseball when I want to play a "fun" baseball game. Somewhere along the lines of making it look more realistic and play more realistic, the people making baseball games lost track of simply making it FUN.
Same for the original SEGA NHL Hockey game, although Sega NHL 2K3 for GameCube is a pretty damned fun hockey game, for the first time in like 10 years.
I'm not saying that adding realism and good graphics isn't a good thing. But in general, it seems like game designers add those features to the detriment of actual gameplay.
MORTAR COMBAT!
As far as I can tell, Miyamoto's "Donkey Kong" predates any other platform game, however, Adventure for the Atari2600 predates Legend of Zelda... so... Another interesting first is that BattleZone predates any other first person shooter. So id software didn't invent the FPS.
In fact, nearly all of the main video game genres were created before 1990. So it isn't hard to argue that most games released these days are derivative.
This is silly. Miyamoto is the guy that produced Metroid Prime. Without him, it probably wouldn't have been the same. He was essentially in charge of overseeing that game- and it's far from a child's game.
This whole "kiddy" criticism of Nintendo really needs to stop. Miyamoto's games are usually brilliant. He actually realizes that he can make awesome games without hookers and crack dealers. It shows you that he is in it to make awesome games- not just make a quick buck like the folks at companies like Rockstar Games.
It's too bad that people just don't appreciate it. So what? Pikmin and Mario are cute games. They are still loads of fun. Everyone's knocking the new Zelda game because of its cartonish, cell-shaded look. But they won't be dissing it when it totally blows them away.
I think that the funniest part of the article was where Blackley, the XBox guy was like, "he's not helping the industry, he's hurting it," i guess because this genius believes, like someone who had heard about darwin but doesn't really get it, that game development is going somewhere in particular -- in this case, the guy clearly assumes that selling games to people who won't buy something without a lot of blood would mean that games have 'made it'.
What a moron. You've got the guy, the only guy who has like ten multi-million sellers under his belt, the guy who brought the console back and brought us Zelda with it, a guy who has been through two video game recessions and helped see to it that they gross more than hollywood, and he's not helping games. Ahem. Pardon me, Seamus, but how are XBox sales?
I appreciate the fact that lots of people think that games are for kiddies, and surely Miyamoto's not doing a lot in the way of evangelizing to those poeple. And I'm glad, because every minute he spends doing that (for what, by the way?) he's not making the next Pikmin or Mario or Zelda.
god is just pretend.
I think the author (and many a poster) misses the boat on just what an 'adult-oriented' game actually is and could be. Sex, violence and gore really target males aged 13-35 (which, to clarify, includes myself), but this is by no means the only adult market, nor are these the only adult themes available.
I suspect the industry's blindness to other audience's potential is twofold: (1) game development is very much a (young) male-dominated industry and (2) big business tends to go with what is already working (why take huge risks investing in a game that appeals to 50+ women when you can go for 15-35 year-old guys that will almost certainly buy?).
I won't claim any great insight into making games that will appeal to these other audiences. But I am pretty certain innovations to draw them in won't come from developers that can't see beyond the current audiences. I am also certain that traditionalists like the author of the article will sneer at whatever these new games are since they will defy the conventions of what a game 'should be' (until the profits roll in anyways). A quick example of this would be the Sims. The Sims has a pretty strong appeal to certain types of gamers, especially female ones, and is selling in quite solid amounts. Yet, among the hard-core gamers that I know, it is frequently sneered at as being very dull and un-interesting.
So where does this leave us? Mostly with the author parroting the game industry's main strategy: sell to males 15-35. Not exactly a recipe for growth (or innovation).
I would say there isn't a single god of games. Zelda was pretty good, though too consoley for me (i.e., too shallow). Same with Mario. But I'll admit they were very good games. However, I would certainly put at least Sid Meier, Richard Garriot, and Chris Sawyer at the same level as Miyamoto. Carmack maybe, but not really for games; he is incredible more for the game engines he deveolops than for the games. There are probably a dozen more that could go in here. Miyamoto is very good, but he is not far and away better than a dozen or more others; from my enjoyment of games I have played, I woiuld rate him significantly below several others.
...would be a little something like this
I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
What could be more cute than a pair of big-eyed dragons trapping their enemies in bubbles, and popping them to collect a multitude of prizes (french fries, candy canes, potions). The secret to Bubble Bobble was that it was single or team play, there were 100 levels, and it was chock full of easter eggs. The game was full of them. It is a game that I can still play for hours to this day. I can still fire up the SNES and play Mario World. Galaga will always be fun. I enjoy PC games like Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six, but I don't play them much after I have gotten all the way through them. But I still play Quake Team Fortress. I have created my own maps, can play online with people across the planet, and the gameplay is pretty dynamic. Sure, it is gory, but the gameplay and variety of TF is what has kept it alive this long.
I don't consider myself a gamer in the least. But IMO someone who derides the brains of Nintendo is a short-sighted fool who would probably give their left arm for 1/10th of the talent of Miyamoto.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
As to more mature games, I'm not looking for more sex and/or violence in a game (although the Quakes and the Dooms and similar FSPs are certainly games I enjoy for many reasons). I don't need or want Street Fighting Ninjas #62. I want gameplay, and it can be as stark as Tetris, as simple as Marble Maze, or as cute as Crystal Castles, as long as it's innovative, interesting and challenging and not a rehash of the last ten titles. Does anyone really expect anything new or different from the next 10 mario titles? I sure do't. Sure, they sell, but not for reasons of gameplay. When the Cube first came out there was a title in the franchise that was stated to not be expected to do as well as other similar games for one reason: It featured "Louigi" rather than "Mario"! Clearly game play and innovation are not issues here; it's just marketing of the franchise and selling of a brand to kids who see Mario on morning cartoons and on printed on their cereal boxes and underwear.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
"Donkey Kong" (Arcade) was the first platform game, and yes it was Miyamoto's work.
"Adventure" (Atari 2600) was the first action-adventure RPG, and yes it was NOT Miyamoto's work. Adventure is a great game, and I suggest that you check it out. Of course, since it predates the first Zelda, it is extremely primitive... but it is still fun to play! It is also the first game to have a easter egg secret.
However, I still love both Adventure and the Zelda series (except Zelda II), and I agree that Blackley is an idiot. Miyamoto is the Walt Disney of video games. Without Miyamoto, Nintendo will go the way of Disney (corporate greed).
You can either import a GC (expensive, as you might imagine).. or you can go the eas(y/ier) route and find plans online that allow you to mod your GC to where you can play Jap and US games at the flick of a switch. If soldering and taking apart your GC is not something you're interested in, there are places around that you can ship your GameCube to in order for them to make such a modification. (It's just two contact points that either need to be soldered together, or burned apart - I forget which)
I know that colorconsoles.com will do it, and I'm sure there are many other trusted companies that will do such a thing... look around.
--Morgon
[DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
Agreed. The only "Kiddie-factor" in Nintendo games that I disapprove of, well actually it drives me CRAZY, is the music and sound effects.
E.g. - It's been years and years since I've played Super Mario Bro's, but every time I jump on something I hear that little BOING sound in my mind and that way-too-catchy kiddie-midi-music that WON'T LEAVE MY BRAIN! Aaaaggghhh!
Love the games, but PLEASE leave out the little kiddie-bop tunes. Nintendo, please for the love of aural sanity take your musical cues from 'Bugs Bunny' and the 'Wild Thornberries' NOT 'My Little Pony' and Ronald McDonald. Thanks so much!
Operator, give me the number for 911!
Even 3d platformers. They wern't all that great though. SMB64 was really revolutionary though.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
For me, the king of games is Richard Garriott. No other series ever gave me more hours of gameplay and satisfaction than the Ultima series did.
YES! The whole, "Lest get our your CD-ROM and Mouse Drivers to fit in 22K adventure" in Untima 7 was Brilliant. And that was done without FMV, Porn or even Graphics! I sepent two days on that part of the adventure alone, and sometimes, to feel nostalgic, I fire up the GERNERIC kernel of FreeBSD and compile in a sound-card driver.
Fun! Fun! Fun!
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
The wired article is laughable. Miyamoto (and Nintendo as a whole) have consistently made amazing games. Since when does blood and sex make a "Mature" game. If you want nudity, go rent some porn. If you want blood and gore go rent Hannibal. Nintendo realizes games are about the gameplay, not the shiny graphics or violence. Look what seperates two "mature" games, GTA3 and BMX XXX from smash-hit to lame gimmick. GTA3 has unique and innovative gameplay. It is fun and polished. It has guns and explosions and hookers. Look at BMX XXX. It has even more guns and explosions and hookers. But noone cares, because beneath it all is a poor bicycle game. The only people who think a game needs guns and hookers to be suitable for adults are people too stuck up on their machoism and hormones to realize what fun is. Nintendo is not perfect, but as long as they keep pumping out games that are different from the norm I'll be buying.
Miyamoto should try to tackle the problem
of making a game that is a compelling musical
instrument, simpler to learn than conventional
instruments, but which gives people the same
feeling of personal expression. This would span
the range of kids and adults, be naturally
multi-player, and take the console in a new
direction. And he has the muscle-pixel-sound
intuition to know what this game should be.
One (unofficial) listing is at http://www.planetnintendo.com/nindb/dev.shtml. They are a little out-of-date (they still have Rare listed), but they have nice history's to give you a sense of each team's style.
An interesting thing about console dev houses is that in the 80s, they were not referred to outside of the company (i.e. it was internal only). However, ever since the last generation started up each team wanted its own little signature on their work. Many of Nintendo's and Sega's older teams have recently made up names for themselves (Intelligent Systems, Amusement Design, respectively) to give the group a style, more like 3rd party developpers. New teams are getting names instead of numbers as well.
Oh, and Miyamoto did signifigantly work on Metroid Prime, for the first time in the series.
It may be worth noting that Mario Sunshine has not set any real sales records. In Japan, it has still not even broken a million copies being out for almost a year. In fact, it is only hovering around 700,000 copies, with is rather disappointing considering the hype of the title.
It has fared a bit better in the US, selling about 810,000 so far. But, overall, it is rather lackluster performance from a rather lackluster (in my opinion) game.
Also, I saw one poster say that Miyamoto produced Metroid Prime. This is only half-correct. Miyamoto was a representitive from Nintendo HQ in overseeing the development of Metroid Prime. Retro Studios came up with the concept, and did all the work. They deserve pretty much all the credit, not Miyamoto.
While one can respect Miyamoto for his achivements, many people in the industry only respect him for his reputation and past work. His recent works has fared rather lackluster in the market, and most critisize him for trying to simplify his games too much. (Such as his goal that all games be playable with only two buttons.)
Miyamoto is not "God", as some would put it, but mearly a very talanted game designer. There are many others that are quite talanted (such as Yuji Naka, Hideo Kojima, or Shinji Mikami for instance) but don't get the recognition due to lack of the "star" status.
I realize this is an unpopular view among the Slashdot crowd, but it's more of the view from inside the gaming industry.
Just some friendly perspective... =)
-Jayde
What's a sig?
I am still of the opinion people would have to look quite hard to try and beat games such as Jetpac by Ultimate for the 16K Spectrum. Or if you wanted a bit more depth to the game then there was the followup Lunar Jetman which had a massive gameplaying area - but then you had to shell out and get a Spectrum with the somewhat excessive memory of 48K!!! Hmmm. Progress is good. Isn't it???
(quick aside: while trying to verify the name of Lunar Jetman, I came across this site. Nice trip down memory lane for all Spectrum users...
The only Good System is a Sound System
This discussion will continue to falter so long as "mature" remains code for "juvenile." In most cases I've seen "mature" game is one with blood, boobs, and base language. But this is not truly mature; it's really juvenile since it is appealing to a person's base instincts. Likewise, "childish" is code for "cartoon." It has little to do with the game story or themes.
An easy example is found in movies: "Toy Story 2" is considered a "kiddie movie" because it's a cartoon. Though it readily appeals to children, it addresses the mature themes of friendship, loss, and death.
Likewise, most "mature" action movies are largely juvenile, appealing to people's desire to see stuff get blowed up real good. They don't actually have any mature themes.
I welcome truly mature games, and there are some out there. But let's make the discussion easier by not mislabeling the juvenile games as "mature" and not calling games "kiddie" just because they have bright colors.
ShoutingMan.com
The sales of his Mario series alone has done $7billion. Comparison in the article to the Star Wars movies doing only $3.5billion.
His games are entertaining, and playable. A kid can enjoy them all, and adults usally enjoy most of them. Just because you are the opinion that his games suck, or are lame, boring, whatever; is fine. There are other games out there for you. But there should be games for the little guys too, just as there were when we were younger (I was 10 when the NES came out).
I say let Sony and Microsoft ignore the 'kids games' and let the master do what he shall.
Famitsu is the for most video game magazine in JPN (and many would say the world). They have four reviews score games on a 1-10 scale and total that for the final score. The perfect score is a 40 in their scale (I really hope you could have figured that out without my telling you). Famitsu has been doing this since 1993 and has only given out FOUR 40's in their time. One of them was to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time....another was given in just the last week to The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. Miyamato has 50% of the perfect scores given out by them. Every title he has even fully produced has always gotten their highest esteem. Why is this? Because he greats games that are epic. He creates games that are revolutionary. But most imporantly he creates games that are just plain fun to play. Doesn't matter if you are 10 years old or if you are 100 years old. I am a 21 year old gamer and bought my Cube mostly because of him. Glad I did because there are so many great games not by him as well ;)
Unstable Apps: Our Android Apps Don't Suck
"The creator of some of the most popular franchises, and the head of most of Nintendo's creative development, constantly aims his games at children."
Spoken like someone who's never played a Miyamoto game. Miyamoto games aren't aimed at children, XXX BMX and the like are aimed at children (yes, prepubescent boys and those that think like them are children). Miyamoto makes games for everyone. I dare anybody who says otherwise to sit down and play Majora's Mask and try saying that again.
I mean, seriously, the article contradicts itself. To wit:
"His path to Olympus has been paved with games that appeal unabashedly, if not exclusively, to children."
Two sentences later:
"Devise controls that are intuitively engaging, puzzles that make players feel as though they're discovering solutions rather than being led to them, and characters that are disarmingly cute."
Intuitive controls cater exclusively to children? I've seen some crappy interfaces on T and M games, so the converse must be true?
Puzzles that allow the players to freely explore the situation on their own? What, adults only go for games that are on rails? All FMV glitz, no game?
Oh, and I see that all "disarmingly cute" character designs are aimed only at children. I guess I shouldn't be watching anything by Tartakovsky, either. Why the heck do we have Sasami as the anime icon on Slashdot?
"Yet his cartoonish aesthetic has nothing to do with the darker, more complex and ambiguous flavor of contemporary existence."
Majora's Mask plot: Link, while on a personal quest to find something he lost in years gone by, gets attacked and mugged by Skull Kid, who (it turns out) is also trying to destroy the world. Why is he so bad? Any other game would have the excuse of "The script says so" (think Final Fantasy). Miyamoto, on the other hand, takes you on a quest that explores aspects of the nature vs. nurture debate. Does Link ever find what he's looking for? Yes and no.
Yeah, nothing like real life at all. We all know that real life is that watered-down, over-simplified stuff that MTV puts out. Hell, Skull Kid is a heck of a lot more of a believable character than Anakin Skywalker has turned out to be.
Anybody who says Miyamoto games are aimed at children are people attempting to cover up their own childeshness. They have an overwhelming need to feel "mature" and "sophisticated." In many ways their words and deeds remind me of homophobes.
Miyamoto is to video games as Mozart is to music. That's all there is to it. Anybody who tries to pigeonhole him beyond that doesn't know what they're talking about.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to play some Super Smash Bros and get my daily quota of cartoon violence.
I hate these games. I can't believe that nobody else has said this, but I really, really do hate all of those Japanimation kiddie fucking games. They're just "beep beep beep, boop, boop, boop". They make me feel like a hamster reacting to stimuli. They offer no intelligent interaction. They're for nothing than to train reflexes in small mammals. I hate kids. I hate those fucking Nintendo games. I love Vice City. Thank you.
I've been a fan of Conker's BFD since I bought it for less than ten bucks at a K-Mart that was going out of business. But I think the pile of BFD's on the ruins of the department store's electronics counter shows the problem: people (that is, the mindless herd, not we the enlightened) can't handle cognitive dissonance.
Conker, the main character, is terribly cute. He curses and fights with a singing monster named the Great Mighty Poo.
Begin mental meltdown...
The game is cute and gameplay is intuitive and fun. One scene involves enticing a big breasted sunflower into intimate relations with a drunken king bee.
TILT!
Faced with this situation, Nintendo took what I suppose was the only logical path: they sold one of their hottest developer groups to rival Microsoft.
It was interesting to me that BFD was one of the last N-64 games... one review I read described it as "the last must-have N-64 game." I saw a kid-friendly Game Boy game featuring Conker the Squirrel at Blockbuster, but didn't rent it... what would be the point? That character is indelibly linked, in my mind, to the Song of the Great Mighty Poo.
So it wasn't too huge a surprise to me when I read the news that Microsoft had bought Rare from Nintendo. I don't know how Rare managed to get Conker out Nintendo's door, but I'm guessing that someone wasn't too happy about it.
I sure wouldn't want to buy anything from the Redmond Empire... but if BFD-2 comes out for X-Box, I may have to put my moral compass back in the box. That said, I like the idea that I can turn to Nintendo for kid-friendly games that -- hopefully -- won't put the adults to sleep.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
" Seamus Blackley of MS says: .... He's reinforcing stereotypes about games, not pushing them to a place where they can become something different and truly awesome.""
"He is not helping things
And that right there is the huge difference between Miyamoto and Sony and Microsoft. Miyamoto has never "pushed" in his life. He doesn't make games to "push the technological envelope" (but they usually end up doing so). He doesn't make games to "push to a new demographic" (which he doesn't need to do, he hits everybody).
Miyamoto writes games! Miyamoto games are the perfect example of ars gratia artis. He doesn't make these games for the money or the fame, he writes them for himself. Which is exactly why he gets all the money and the fame.
It's just a shame so many people refuse to understand this one simple concept.
... if no movies were G-rated.
I cringe when I hear people saying Nintendo should grow up. Hey, if you want gory FPSs, get an Xbox or a PS2.
Nintendo's right where they should be. Their stuff sells like crazy, and SOMEBODY's gotta make games for the kids and the kids-at-heart. I'm 33, just bought a Gamecube with Mario Sunshine last week, and I'm having a great time with it.
Personally, I take some degree of offense to the implication in the article that the puzzles in Miyamoto's games are simplistic. How many people here have found every secret in a Mario game without the help of a hint guide? I'm sure a few of you have, but how long did it take? Sure, the main goal of beating Bowzer is pretty easy, but that's one of the geniuses of these games, there are different goals, of varying difficulty, so that all ages can enjoy the game.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Miyamoto does not earn royalties on the games he designs... He's a salary man, just like all good Japanese people should aspire to be.
A salary man for god's sake! He works his ass off for less than fair compensation! His only motivation HAS to be creating good games, who here would honestly think he's trying to hold the game industry back on purpose?! WTF! Slow news day @ Wired, need to sell some ad banners?
[o]_O
Personally I'd love to pick up a Gamecube to play with but this arbitrary restriction to the kind of games that Nintendo will licence mean I won't bother
That's funny. I won't pick up a PS2 because I am concerned about the games that they do license.
I guess it is a matter of taste for you. For me, it is a matter of trust.
It's no good being the cheapest if all your games suck.
I agree. You are quoting the Nintendo corporate mantra by saying that you are only interested in the games. Keep that in mind.
A lot of us love Nintendo still, and are not fanboys. Why? Because we still buy Nintendo after we have tried the other consoles at friends homes.
Adult games huh?
I Gotta Get Back To My Roots:
After giving it a lot of thought, I finally decided to get the Nintendo Game Cube. My Super Nintendo did all right by me, so I figured a Super Super Nintendo would probably do even better. Anyway, what the Game Cube lacks in race games it more than makes up for in zombie games. Not only does it have Resident Evil, but there's also Eternal Darkness. I took a hard look at the cash I'd socked away and decided I had enough for a Game Cube plus one game. I got Eternal Darkness because, unlike Resident Evil, you can only get that for the Game Cube. You see, Jim Anchower enjoys the finer things in life, and there's not much finer than a video game that's exclusive to the very system that you happen to own.
producer of Adventures in Klu Klu land. I mean, either he's also responsible for an incredibly crappy game or the title producer has little bearing of the quality on a game. Never mind that it takes increasing amounts of skilled people years to create a game which the media and often players attribute to a single person.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Miyamoto's touch is golden. Has the man ever made a bad game? He seems like he would be an IBM "Fellow" to me: "Hey Miyamoto, go do whatever you want. We'll pay you for it because it's bound to be good." If he's steering the company to make great games, though maybe fewer of them, let him. I mean would two crappy versions of Lord Of The Rings movies bring in as much as one really good one? I personally don't think so not being a LOTR fan but being completely sucked into the Two Towers release. My $.02
psxndc
The emacs religion: to be saved, control excess.
I appreciate the fact the Miyamoto still brings this aspect to video games. To my mind, there's a healthy mix out there of blood/guts and colorful characters on ALL consoles. If there's more "kiddie" stuff on Nintendo's consoles, good. I think that's a nice choice for the marketplace.
Besides, what is "mature"? Is it the ability to print "death" on a screen? To splatter blood? What is inherently less mature about killing a turtle by jumping on it versus pumping it full of lead and splattering guts all over the screen?
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
This article reminds me a lot of the old American football saying, about how fans give their coach too much blame when the team loses and too much credit when the team wins. American McGee's comment is a great example of this:
"Grand Theft Auto is basically a rip-off of Zelda, because Zelda invented massive-world games that let players explore freely, rather than following a linear path. Miyamoto innovates, so he's pushing the form. End of story."
I'm sorry, but Ultima III and the Wizardry series were doing massive-world free-exploration games long before the NES even existed. And even those had predecessors. And from the way this article sounds, you'd think Miyamoto was the first to ever use 3D or a camera in a game.
This seems to be an underlying theme in the article -- that the video game industry is looking to Miyamoto for guidance, blaming him for not guiding them in the right way, and giving him way too much credit for its current state. It's as if Miyamoto is successful due to some magic he alone possesses, rather than because he was able to build on lessons of the past in the right ways.
It seems ridiculous to me.
Yeah? What do all you Shigeru-heads think now?
This is a smart move. Find a niche market and stick to it. Nintendo has been around since forever, and not even Microsoft and Sony combined can crush it because they are not interested in a marketing grab-all frenzy.
I love my xbox to death, but I would definitely buy a game cube just to play pikmini (sp?) and Metroid Prime. The one thing I won't get is a ps/2/3/whatever.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
When I buy a game for my kid's Gamecube, I don't have to worry to much about it.
Correct. I believe your kids have already asked Santa Clause for BMX XXX. Unlike the PS2 version, the GameCube (and XBox version) is uncensored.
P.S. If you hear them yelling "SCORES!" from the game room while playing BMX XXX, they are probably not referring to points earned...
"And like that
Well at least we can maybe agree on calling Miyamoto the god of console games then?
Fuck you.. Thanks.
I don't want to ruin this Nintendo "love-in", but the PS2 has been quickly gaining ground in the kids games dept. Take for instance the new critically acclaimed Ratchet & Clank and Sly Cooper and the thievius raccoonus (which my daughters love), not to mention the Rayman series blah blah blah fishcakes. I'm not saying the PS2 owns or anything, I'll leave that nonsence to those pimply-faced freaks that have nothing but texture-mapped polygons on the brain. What i am saying is that although Miyamoto is unquestionably the best childrens game designer [ever], most children would not be able to differentiate between a Nintendo specific game and one of the other many game developers out there.
Miyamoto is no longer the advantage he may have been in the past, but will always be an icon to all others in his profession.
SEO Copywriter. Just Say ON
comment. Not that it made Zelda any less fun but the story was merely by-product for the running and jumping, just like any other nintendo game.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
OMG I forgot METROID....he does ROCK :)
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Gumpei Yokoi, who is one of the most uncredited men in history, was the genius behind Metroid. Sadly, he died in a car crash, but Nintendo would not be where it is today without him.
Those numbers can't exactly be compared. It costs $50 a cartridge while a movie is around $7 or $8 (YMMV). Although I find the Mario games much more entertaining than any Star Wars film (that is until Jar-Jar bites the big one in SWIII).
I'm so very tired of the "Nintendo is teh kiddy!" argument. I'm happy the way things are. While Nintendo's kid-friendly reputation may keep it nipping at the heels of the Xbox and PS2, the bazillions of copies of Pokemon and Gameboys that are sold every year will keep them afloat to make more games like Metroid Prime and Zelda.
is a games quality judged by the killing and blood in the game. yes i enjoy "mature games" (fallout) but i also enjoy a number of games that are viewed as childrens. so i don't see why everyone makes such a big deal about this issue. how good a game is should be based on it's gameply rather then if it's mature or not.
Is probably the day he runs out of imagination.
There really is no need for blood and gore. In fact the "real world" stuff is far more constrained.
Think about it: Mario, Pacman, Tetris, Loderunner. vs Counterstrike, Quake, Max Payne, GTA3 etc. Which has more sameness? Some games can be just distilled to tiny essentials and people will still play them (e.g. snake).
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy 3D FPSes and games like GTA3. But I don't see why Miyamoto should be told how to use his obviously vast imagination and creativity.
There are INFINITE possibilities in the general direction he is heading. So why turn around and head in another direction? Let others explore the infinite possibilities in those directions. Does everyone have to head in the blood and gore directions? Doh.
Miyamoto vs Everyone Else? It'll be a very sad day if the combined imaginations of everyone else isn't good enough to explore blood and gore, and they need Miyamoto there as well.
Something is really wrong with people who keep thinking: "adult themes".
Despite Hollywood's attempts I hope adults still have broader minds than that.
Are there enough mod points left to mark me as -1, Troll to kill the presence of a dissenting opinoin?
It seems today's par for the coarse is "you don't need blood/violence/etc. to make a game fun, despite what everyone thinks" I agree entirely, however nearly every tired post in this discussion has carried the implication that it has NO place in gaming, which I contest.
To crudely break down the spectrum of games, for the purpose of my argument, you have games which function as toys on the tv screen/monitor and what the suggestive masses have referred to as "mature" or "realistic." To summerise simply, its everything else.
Miyomoto-esque games are toys. Just that. At a conceptual level, they are playtime with a controller.
The "other" games find their base in conflict in some form. Violence easily serves as a vehicle for the conflict the game is based around and just that; and it can be done extremely well. To cite an example, I point towards Half-Life where the player is dropped into a brutally hostile environment with a group of other bystanders where the goal is to survive to live another day (which boasts familiarities with some other aspects of life... heh) or any of the Marathon Trilogy in a universe where the player is kicked around and manipulated by entities with more power and insight into the larger situation than he.
Yes, games don't HAVE to be violent to be fun, but they CAN use those elements to make it so, and I think that's a fair conclusion.
Bored with karma, be a fan/freak
Dev kits arent the problem where developing independent console titles are concerned. There are enough code geeks out there who enjoy doing that sort of thing, and enough open source rendering engines (Quake, Crystal Space) that getting something on screen is not the real problem.
The problem is the art assets. Take a look at the credits for most modern 3d games. You will see a programming team of 5 to 10 people, and an art team of about 20. It takes a huge amount of work to actually create all of the textures and models for a complicated 3d game. And debugging an animation is not as easy as running a debugger. That sort of work is much more manual.
While the software takes more skill to do properly, the art takes more time, and often more people. If you want a large game, you need alot of artists. Metroid Prime, GTA 3, and Halo are all very large games.
END COMMUNICATION
Anyone who's actually played the GameCube's Legend of Zelda "The Wind Waker" will tell you that your comments are so off-base that they're laughable. There is a great deal of "adult" anime in the world, movies like Princess Mononoke. Are these just for kids? No. Same with Zelda. Just because the art style is cartoon animation doesn't immediately make the game something of the Saturday Morning variety.
Maybe you should try playing it before you make snap judgements.
Of course the market share is horribly screwed when you consider how many companies release cookie cutter versions of whatever is currently popular in an effort to make a quick buck. How many games did Id release? How many clones of those games were released? MMORG's are the hot thing right now, and the market will be saturated shortly with Asherons Call 2, Asherons Call, Everquest, Everquest 2(or whatever it's called), Star Wars Galaxies, Horizons, Neocron, Anarchy Online, etc, etc, etc. MMORGs are popular, let's see if we can make a quick buck that way. It's the same process that took place when Doom hit the shelves, and even more so when Quake2 hit the shelves.
This might have been said before, but ah well.
Does anyone else notice how this article seems to think that sex/violence == a mature game == a good game? I mean, sure, the content could probably rate it an NC-17 rating, but does that necessarily mean the game is worth the money you pay for it?
What about a game like Final Fantasy Tactics, and how it portrayed the brutality of social rank, among other issues (eh, that might be a bad example)? Or what about a series like Arc the Lad, a trilogy of games that asks the question: How far will humanity go in their pursuit of power and knowledge?
I suppose I could pose the question of the maturity of these games, given the fact that they don't portray "mature content" in a way that GTA does, but a better question would be what will happen to the production of games like these if the industry hops on the GTA Bandwagon?
If you drive over pedestrians and blow up helicopters and hold up stores and kill and run from the police, the police will come out with SWAT teams and FBI and more helicopters with machine guns and they will eventually kill you or arrest you. I always thought that that was a realistic aspect of the game, since that is approximately what would happen if you tried those things in reality.
What GTA3 did that was interesting was it combined several genres of gaming into one. It is in many ways a chase game (i.e., do something that is required by the plot, then be chased by the "bad guys"). I am thinking really basic action game here, like Ms. Pacman. You run around the maze being chased by the "ghosts". Get all the dots and you win. There are also various elements of adventure gaming, at least in that there is a plot which develops over time as a result of accomplishing various missions. There aren't really any puzzles to solve, except in coming up with a strategy with which to attempt the missions.
The reason you appear at a police station or hospital when you are arrested or get killed is exactly because it is a game. It doesn't matter if they have you appear at the hospital or if you were given a "Game Over" screen. The effect is the same in that most people will still reload from a saved game anyway when they die because they lose all their weapons. There's nothing less realistic than that.
Anyway, they created an immersive world that had rules. You could break the rules (hit a cop car, run over too many pedestrians, shoot random people, etc), and you would get a wanted level. I liked the fact that you could break the rules and you would face the consequences. It is quite different from the many "role playing" games where the game program simply won't allow you to kill the people of the village, only the monsters in the forest. Your sword swings right through those villagers without making a scratch. That's not realistic either.
At least GTA's rules are consistant.
My other first post is car post.
2. When the hell did 'Adult themed' come to mean "Killing and Sex-For-Morons"??? I'm an adult, and this is certainly not the theme of my existence. I wish instead they'd say it something like, "This film contains subject matter best suited for horney, blood-thirsty savages. Enjoy your popcorn."
-Fantastic Lad
I agree. However to provide a bit of balance it is worth pointing out that at one time, Nintendo used to be king of the console market.
Now they are in third place. They've even dropped behind the one console manufacturer that has no experience in the console market, doesn't have as many quality games, is twice the size and is twice the cost (Microsoft).
Food for thought.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
...we would loose games that let us be childs again :-) And, BTW, what's wrong about targeting children and never-grown-ups ? As long as they are able to pay (or let pay) for Nintendo's consoles and games, everything is OK.
Without Miyamoto Nintendo would be toast already, I guess. And I wouldn't love Nintendo as much as I do without him. Except for the GameCube which I have yet to buy I own every console Nintendo has released in Europe and the charm of Mario and Zelda is... unique. And they managed to make a cult out of it.
One strength of Miyamoto's games is simple gameplay. They are easy to learn and understand but yet get challenging lateron in the game, without getting boring. And this is something very special that is not often found in games, unfortunately. And I guess focussing on children helps him keeping this concept of easy to use/learn games that get challenging (but seldom unfair).
That, as others have said, is a view of those wanting to be mature (such as the under-18's).
Nintendo games do not fall into the basic PC/Box/PS2 format of being a clone of three major genres:
1) 3d Shoot them up.
2) Resource harvest, build, send them to war.
3) Sword. Orc. Better Sword. Orgre. Better Sword. Dragon.
Even within each genre a slightly original tweak of gameplay as heralded as revolutionary.
Miyamoto develops games which are outside this stereotype. So he's stylistic and makes them brightly coloured. They are games for people who _love_ games.
The critics who level the maturity thing at Nintendo are the same type of people who would call themselves critics, based on the facts they go and see all the top blockbuster movies.
When in reality none of the three main PC genres would exist today with their level of innovation. We'd all be debating the latest incarnation of Solitaire or The Sims...
Whoops...
I would not call being named the top company in japan falling behind a console that is losing 177m a quarter. Check the numbers, the Gamecube is selling decently, and the xbox is not doing well at all.
Anyone who's actually played the GameCube's Legend of Zelda "The Wind Waker" will tell you that your comments are so off-base that they're laughable. There is a great deal of "adult" anime in the world, movies like Princess Mononoke. Are these just for kids? No. Same with Zelda. Just because the art style is cartoon animation doesn't immediately make the game something of the Saturday Morning variety.
Maybe you should try playing it before you make snap judgements.
And perhaps you should actually look at my post and read what it said -- the cartoon animation is not necessarily what makes the game so kiddy, it's the content. Try not to act so obtuse.
Princess Mononoke is one of my favorite movies, BTW. You're just looking for somebody to flame.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh