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Droning On
MagnetarJones writes "Another washingtonpost.com article reports that Federal regulators have begun considering rules that would allow drones, the pilotless planes being used in the war in Afghanistan, to fly in U.S. airspace. Supporters envision the use of drones, also known as unmanned aerial vehicles, for such tasks as moving cargo, pinpointing traffic problems, patrolling the border, searching for fugitives or fighting forest fires..."
Who needs cameras on light posts anyway? They're too easy to avoid.....
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I remember reading a story about using high altitude aircraft for broadband applications, basically getting most of the benefits of a satelite without a lot of the latency issues.
They could also be used for crowd control, or spying on dissidents, or attacking remote outposts of constitutionalist militias...
I just saw an article about these drones on another site yesterday. What many of the stories forget to
mention is that each drone plane costs more than FOUR MILLION DOLLARS, so they are not the inexpensive
throw-away solution that it appears.
I think it will be many many years before FedEX and other freight haulers seriously consider using
something like an unmanned drone for delivery.
It's much cheaper to hire a pilot and use a plane, or hire a truck, and it will still be much cheaper for a long time to come.
I see these things flying around Indian Springs all the time when I'm driving out the the Test Site, and if they're talking about the Predator model, I really don't see how they would be much use hauling hauling cargo. They're meant to be a fast & light recon plane.
Ah, yes. I have seen these as well going back years. In fact, drones have been used by the military since the '50's I think, for target testing by converting old fighters (F-4's currently) to remote control. (I also seem to remember my grandfather telling me about a B-17 that was converted to remote control for the testing of some of the first air to air missiles. Additionally, NASA has also outfitted larger planes including a 707 for crash testing. There is nothing that limits the size of a drone and they do not have to be necessarily fast and light to be a recon plane. Look up the Global Hawk and Darkstar to see what I mean.
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... won't be the only application; you can bet they'll be patrolling internal areas too.
I don't mean to be a pessimist, but patrolling the border will most likely be one of many surveillance applications. Especially with the growing 'power' (so to speak) of the FBI, NSA, and other government agencies, there is a high likelihood that these will end up being used for domesetic spying too.
Are you a suspected terrorist? I'll bet these will show up shortly.
Supporters, of course, won't point out this application, for one of two reasons. One is that it never occurred to them, so they support it blindly, or they're such ardent supporters that they're ignoring and/or accepting this use.
I have nothing against unmanned aircraft, I think they have many wonderful applications. It's just there are some less-than-desirable applications, which we must all be aware of. They're just like guns - they have good applications (sports) and bad applications (as a lethal weapon); the better applications such as traffic monitoring are great, but it's potential uses as a spying mechanism are somewhat unnerving.
We've just got to be careful how we monitor the use of these. Just my $0.02.
I will now prepare for my first flamebait mod.
I wonder if drones crash more because the penalty for operator error is not FLAMING DEATH.
Think about it: the ground-based drone operator decides that, due to the staggeringly boring nature of his job, he needs to take a few minutes now and then to smoke a bowl or surf for pr0n.
Real pilots have a lot more invested in the ship's safe return.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by mere idiocy.
When one goes out of control and crashes into a commercial passenger jet?
The problem with drones is that they don't have a thinking pilot. Where as two pilots will do everything in their power to avoid a midair collision, a drone is not even aware that a collision is imminent in such a situation. Which basically leaves the pilot in the situation of having to "guess" which way the drone will steer next.
Now it is possible that these drones are radio controlled, however, that's even worse, as the terrorist will need do little more than hack the signal and fly the drone into a commercial aircraft, all from the safety of their white van...
Either way, it's a terrible safety threat. To allow unmanned drones to fly in U.S. airspace is bad safety practices at best, and potentially deadly at worst.
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well, consider the factors instead of just numbers. Otherwise you're just comparing apples and oranges based on your own taste buds.
1) Are manned aircrafts being exposed to the same dangers at the same time? (IE- are the unmanned in more hotspots than the manned ones are, thus being exposed to more dangerous and riskier missions?)
2) What's the value of human life + manned plane versus the $4.5M predators?
There's a line, and a point of diminishing returns where either manned or unmanned exceeds the other in financial and logistical values.
Is this related at all to the Helios Project? Would this re-zoning have to take place to allow them? As I recall, these were what they were discussing as potential satellite replacements, though I haven't heard anything about them in a long time. They were to be solar powered, and multipurpose, capable of remaining airborne for months at a time and carrying an array of emitters/receivers of various types, at a very low price tag compared to satellites that provide the same service. At the time they were being hailed as the ultimate broadband provider, possibly based on an 802.11 standard of some type.
Before adding to the air traffic control load, it might be a good idea to wait until the FAA has worked the bugs out of their controversial new STARS gear. Critics say it doesn't work and is being rushed into operation...
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This is already happening. At least I presume the Global Hawk flew through U.S. airspace to get from Edwards to Alaska. ;-)
Actually, Global Hawk flights over the continental US are now routine as I understand it. And these are not small drones, witness:
Global Hawk:
Wing span: 116 ft
Length: 44 ft
Height: 15 ft
Performance Goals
Range: 12,500 nmi
Approx. Endurance: 35 hrs
Endurance @1200nm: 24 hrs
Altitude: 65,000 ft
True Airspeed: 335 kts
Gross T/O wt: 26,750 lbs
Payload wt: 2,000 lbs
Payloads: EO/IR and SAR
I have no problem with this personally, but I can see how some might get a little nervous. ;-)
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I worked on the F-4 target project some years back and the F-4 is probably the worst plane to make into a drone. Does make an easy target though. But most modern planes are fly-by-wire and would simply need transponders and a computer to remotely control. A system could easily be fitted into any commercial jetliner to be a backup if something happened to the pilot. Pilots control these types of projects though, so they'll never really take their place.
It's possible to fly a R/C plane using only the view from the camera (and not being able to see the plane) but it's certainly not easy. People have made autopilots for R/C planes (and even tried to fly them across the Atlantic) but there's still many hurdles to overcome.
You're probably already aware of this, but others may not bePeople do that now with R/C planes. Either they shoot beams of light at the other plane or they try to cut a ribbon trailing from the other plane, or they'll even deliberately ram your plane and try to make it crash.
I haven't tried it myself (I usually just fly around and poke holes in the sky) but hope to someday. Need to make a nice slope soaring combat wing and try the `full contact' style at the local slope ...
Actually, you're not far off...
My brother is an intel officer in the USAF, and he told me about how all the pilots are b*tchin about how they are going to be reduced to remote-controlled airplane pilots just like their 8-year-old son. There's an on-going investigation into some pilots who may have purposefully crashed their drones to "demonstrate" how bad they are and how we still need planes...
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I'm kind of curious as to how these are remotely controlled. I'm wondering if a constant connection has to be maintained with these things, and what happens if that connection is broken. Seems it would possible to jam the signal, leaving these drons to make decisions on their own. What would they do, fly in circles till they run out of gas and crash? Or worse yet, fly in a straight line and crash into a structure, or cross into foreign airspace!
Reminds me of when a remote control car would go outside of my range, and would just keep on going in a straight line. I would end up chasing after the damn thing trying to get it to stop from hitting a wall/curb.
Drone craft ought to cut shipping costs and times.
Eventually they would reduce the cost (and risk) of human flight.
For extra safety, provide human monitoring of take-off and landing. Not remote control - just the ability to tell a drone that it is doing something stupid and needs to take evasive action, abort a landing, etc.
Full remote control should be rare - e.g give the drone a one-use key that a ground controller has to request from a high security facility in order to take control.
between a war, and a War. Having spent several years in law enforcement, at the street level, I can honestly say the war on drugs is one of the more ignorant things this country has attempted, right up there with prohibition. If we legalized the drugs, regulated the growers, the so-called war on drugs would end next week, with the foriegn suppliers going broke, the US government generating huge funds, the prison population which is nearly 1/3 people involved in stupid possesion crimes, would return to a manageable level. The only real show stopper I can see is an on the spot test for drivers, similar to the DUI field sobriety tests, because NO ONE should operate a motor vehicle under the influence of drugs. The whole concept of the government trying to legislate morality is hypocritical in the extreme. Oh well that's my so-called .02, Happy New Year all and TGIF :)
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
(I also seem to remember my grandfather telling me about a B-17 that was converted to remote control for the testing of some of the first air to air missiles.
You remember well, and your grandpa wasn't making it up.
I remember watching B-17 drones FLY here at Patrick Air Force Base (I'm still living less than a quarter mile away from the place.) when we were living on base (pretty much directly under the glide path, not very far at all from the north end of the runway) back in the 50's.
They were painted in outlandishly LOUD yellow and black or silver and black striped paint jobs.
I guess they didn't want anybody not knowing something that big was flying around without somebody sitting inside of it.
Unfortunately, they did their missle testing out beyond the horizon over the ocean. We never got to see any of the really cool stuff (although the spectacular failures of innumerable IRBM's and ICBM's out at the Cape was plenty cool enough).
I miss those old planes. They were neat.
Is it fascism yet?