Slashdot Mirror
Number of Jobs by Programming Language
The Viking writes "I was curious about which programming languages are hot with employers, so I did an informal search of several job search engines. The results are interesting (to me, at least). Are these numbers relevant? We can certainly debate whether or not the online job search engines are representative of the actual employment landscape."
Where is it? PHP has become the defacto standard for developing new websites. There are certainly more PHP jobds then Python ones. It would also be interesting
to learn about employment oportunities for ppl with older skills like Cobol, Fortran, Assembler.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
This isn't offtopic, it's research into the right buzzwords to get a job. Do you know even one serious programmer who can't code in any language if presented a pocket reference guide? Citing specific languages in a job search is all about buzzwords for resumes.
Gee, typical.
Lets broaden the search to languages commoningly used in minis and mainframes. Perhaps the results will be more relevant?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Perl is a scripting language too, and its up there.. it takes a bit of programming knowledge to write good scripts.
Furthermore, the searcher omitted C. C is still a very popular language for embedded applications. Everybody I know around here that got hired recently got hired to write C or assembly for hubs, cell phones, TVs or printers. I program almost entirely in C for work but I program in Java for fun.
These job sites are not the way to go. I'd say a survey of recent CS grads, and people that recently got new jobs would give much different results. Even a slashdot survey saying "Which language do you use most at work?" would be better.
It h-has become a disturbing trend in recruitment circles to advertise jobs you don't actually have, in order to mine résumés for potential employer contacts. I know that this is especially common in the UK. I'd bet that less than half of these jobs are real.
Another worrying trend is that I know people who've responded to job ads, and even gone for interview, and have been told that the job doesn't exist, but that they wanted a healthy batch of résumés on file for when the economy picks up(!!)
Th-th-the best people to ask are the freelance workers, the people actually here on Slashdot. What languages are most in demand?
In the main, as a programmer myself, I find that specific, er, languages are not demanded so much. People want solutions, unh, not languages. That said, from the REAL ads I see (I'm in numerous freelance work groups), PHP and MySQL are way way way at the top of the tree, followed by Java.
mogorific carpentry experiments
If you want Highly skilled workers, who do actual programming, you're more likley to feild out the position to real people, University grads/students, and computer consulting companies.
If you want a bunch of Joe Losers, who learned Java from Sally Struthers, so they could be rich computer technicians, working for peanuts, then you advertise on Monster.com
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
C wasn't searched, only C++ was, and C++ programmer are not C coders.
Seems to me its more important to know algorithms, data structures, how to implement parsers, how to optimize databases(or knowing when its better to use a custom data structure rather than a database), etc.
But the job ads almost universally ask for knowledge of the specific language. I've worked with C++, Java, VB, Perl, SQL, XML, Javascript, and others, but in my experience knowing what to do with these languages far outweighs knowing the language itself. Why don't recruiters see this?
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I strongly disagree with that approach.
I've picked up a working knowledge of many languages over the years but I'm not to say that I am an expert, or even proficient.
Expertise in a language implies you know the compiler and runtime environment very, very well. It also implies that you know the common pitfalls, strengths concerning the langauage and you know how to deal with them.
It's all vague "proficient", "expert", "knows". I'd say what you discribed wouldn't pass for more than "familar", ie. "familar with language x"
I am very wary of people that list 20 different languages on their resume, or suggest that they know these languages otherwise. Not that I'm in a position to make hiring decisions right now though.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
The results show the demand for people with different language skills, but gives little insight into the type of jobs that are available, or the languges that they use.
Much more interesting would be a breakdown of the different tech sectors vs languages used, although I'm guessing that most of it would be fairly obvious (Web stuff using mainly php and perl, C for embedded etc...)
From the question, it sounds like The Viking is trying to work out which language will give him the most job opportunies. My advice would be to select at least a couple of tech sectors to refine the search and then re-generate the stats. It might be that there are lots of very similar opportunities for VB programmers which The Viking would find to be boring as shit. Better to find a language with the maximal spread across different job types :)
-- Mike
C# is all the hype now and it is hot.
Similar to a few months after JAVA was released,
you can get a GOOD job according to the ads that want people with 8-10years experience with C#
If you can also say something like "I program XML in C#" then you are all set.
On a different point, the downturn in IT industry is good. This just means that hopefully only skilled people can work there and no more ex-busdrivers hacking webpages.
No one uses PHP at an enterprise level, nor is it ready to be used in such a manner.
i nd ex.jsp
(Warning, karma-killing but truthful rant ahead)
What the fsck is "enterprise level" anyhow? If that ain't a beaten buzzword, then I don't know what is (besides "XML web services").
PHP apps tend to use the database for noun modeling and state, not objects (although it can do OOP). Thus, it's "size" depends on the database, not really on PHP itself. Now if you want to define "enterprise level" to mean "big fat bloated objects/classes", then you are right. PHP is not "there". If you want big fat tangled bloated objects/classes, then go with EJB. Perfect mess for job security. See:
http://www.softwarereality.com/programming/ejb/
Relational theory and OO are pretty much at odds I have come to conclude, at least WRT to "business modeling". OO fans only want to use the "persistence" feature of relational databases. Beyond that they tend to re-invent the database from scratch in code, hand-coding their own indexes, joins, etc.
Table-ized A.I.
I can code in these: Prolog, Lisp, Scheme, ML, C, C++, Java and JSP, Basic, VB and ASP, Perl, PHP, PLSQL, Assembler 86/87, Assembler 68000 Motorolla, JavaScript, Pascal (3-7), Turin and OOT, Fortran, PL1, Cobol, JCL, various shell scripts sh, csh, ksh and I am possibly missing a few others I used. These are only languages and already there are different programming paradigms. Lisp, Prolog, C, Java, C++, Perl - do you see how these languages are different? You better know exactly why you are using one and not another for the job you are doing and you better use it right applying good programming techniques and patterns and using all available libraries and frameworks. Sure you can use C to do all of the stuff you need but if the right tool for the job is Lisp or Java your work will be hindered, your results will possibly be not as maintanable and possibly could not be proven to be correct. A programmer who is unfamiliar with a functional programming paradigm will not be able to use Scheme to his/her advantage. A programmer who is used to the procedural paradigm will not use Java or C++ or Smalltalk or Eiffel effectively because his thinking will be limited to the only paradigm he/she knows/understands.
You can't handle the truth.
Becoming a language guru will inevitably involve deeper issues anyway, as true language gurus often delve into the implementation tools (compilers, VMs) for their given language.
"Big thinkers" on the other hand, tend to be just that. Lots of talk and little action. The bottom line is that you are trying to push out code to make money.
A few years ago a web "developer" was a web designer.
"Hey look I can code in HTML !"
That was a shame, but luckily the dot com bust removed a good chunk of those bozos.
Next came the "e-commerce" guys. A much tougher task than just drawing pretty pictures.
Nowadays people are spicing up there resumes with things like "Architecting reliable enterpise B2B web services and applications". Whatever.
A good developer tries to thoroughly understand his task, and uses the right technologies to get it done. Buzzwords be damned.
Still, its too bad that some of us get labeled "web" this or that because we happen to move data around using tcp/ip
This is not a study, nor did the originator state such. It is a compilation of information pulled from various search engines and Web sites, each of which has different search parameters.
The inclusion of Monster.com alone invalidates any sort of scientific or statistical rules. The contents change daily. Also, in most cases, the people entering job notices are HR types, not the techies that actually use the languages.
No, I'm sorry I have to agree with the guy above (as well as you). It's true that *really* knowing how how to program is more valuable on the whole than being an expert in a particular language... however, on a specific project, and with certain languages (perl is a fairly good example), prior deep experience with the specific language can make a HUGE difference.
[Just so you understand that I'm not talking out of my ass, I've been programming for 20 years, broken down for the large part (with some overlap) as about 9 C/C++, 7 FORTRAN, 5 BASIC , 4 assembly (various) and 4 Perl (plus a bunch of other pedagogical languages like scheme and so on).]
I would consider someone a hell of a lot more valuable if they had a lot of experience with several different programming languages, because, as you said above, they are more likely to understand the fundamental concepts of programming. However, I'm working in a Perl shop right now (and unlike these other posters, I DO make hiring decisions), and at this stage, I wouldn't consider anyone for a senior position who didn't have consierable experience with Perl. There are a lot of reasons, but one of the biggest ones is: 3 months to get up to speed or 6 months? Consider how much they're being paid, and the opporunity cost of 3 more months, and its just not worth it.
Perl is definitely derived from C (as well from shell and various others), but a guy with C and Java and COBOL and whatever else is just NOT gonna be able to run with Perl that quickly, period. Perl is too different in terms of the tools that you actually use (I'm not talking about syntax or silly little idioms and all of the magic variables in Perl). I mean, if you're programming in Perl, and you're not thinking "how would regular expressions and/or hash tables (for example) make this easier?" then you're probably just not doing it right (whatever "it" is). If you're really convinced that isn't how you should be using Perl for this situation, then you probably shouldn't be using Perl anyway. (I love Perl, but it's not the answer to everything).
Ugh, I'm rambling now... anyway, I'd say that what you said is *mostly* true, but almost every language has things about it that separate it and make partiular expertise valuable (in at least some situations). Hire someone to write C/C++ because they know Java, C#, Perl and Basic? But they've never used a pointer!!!! Hire someone to write Java because they've used C/C++, Fortran, and PHP? But are they really thinking about threads from the get-go? Etcetera... I hope you see my point.
:Wq
Not an editor command: Wq
I definately see your point, I even agree in general. I definately do not think you should throw a C programmer in a perl project and expect him to roll (whether or not I agree perl should be used for coding anything that could be called a "project" unless it's perl module is another matter).
As an experienced programmer, when you look at a list like this, are you thinking in terms of jumping into a job with an unfamiliar language if it's number one on the list or are you looking at which language to look more closely at and in relatively short time be able to add it to your resume.
Where we disagree I suppose is how much time it takes to pick up these things and identify them. For example with perl, it took me less than 24hrs working with it before I was asking myself "how would regular expressions and/or hash tables make this easier". When absorbing a new language the first thing I look at is syntax and basic functionality, then I start to look for the things that are unique or advantageous in that language.
Basically I guess what I'm saying is this is nothing but a list of buzzwords so you can add them to your resume (even if it does take a month to be able to honestly do it).
Last but not least, where are some other languages? What about... blah blah, long pointlesss list deleted
Look, the languages that matter are C++, Java, SQL, FORTRAN and COBOL. I'm sorry the trendy open-source language "de jour" isn't there, and I'm sorry this week's academic favorite isn't either. The fact is, no-one gets paid for their "elite" Haskell or Glish or elisp "skills". Slahsbots can whine about this 'til the sun implodes, it won't make a difference. Learn a corporate standard or, to put it simply, don't bother looking for a job. End of story.
I feel your pain....only 8 job listings in all of Dice for my favorite language, Ruby (probably 100's in Japan, but none in U.S.). Zero listings for Haskell (just 6 matches for a company that had "Haskell Avenue or something in address). Maybe someday I'll be lucky enough to have a job again where they only care about results, not the language used.
This table is completely disheartening if you're a programmer. Monster has over 250 cities/areas you can search (on their US site, that is), making an average of 10 or so jobs for the top 3 languages PER AREA. Yuck. Obviously this won't be the case, but that means some areas will have NO jobs listed for a particular area. With a total of 9741 job listings, that makes a total paper average of ~40 jobs per area. I really hope things start looking better than this.
Another thing to consider, of the total 20K jobs across all 3 services, how many of those are dupes? Maybe half? More?
To decide what the best prospects for employment are you need to look at not only how many jobs there are using a particular language, but how many applicants there are for those positions. There's far more Java programmers on the market than anythings else, so that as an employer of people who write in C++, and people who write in Java, I find I can fill the Java position far more quickly.
Also, a lot of the application space covered by Java competes with the application space covered by Visual Basic rather than that covered by C or C++. That is, Java is being used for pretty end-user stuff, particularly if it's web based or an in-house project, whereas you use C or C++ for applications that require high performance (and these applications do still exist), and for shrink-wrapped software deloyed widely. There is some overlap, and some other things I haven't taken into account here.
Java is not necessarily used for platform independence. In fact even remaining on the same platform you have to special case things for different versions of the JVM, unless you have control of that, which you probably don't.
So, the questions are:
I find it very surprising that there are no jobs listed at all for C programmers. Is he perhaps lumping C and C++ into one category?
And the brethren went away edified.
Mostly the latter. It's a trend. I'm waiting to see if anyone catches on. Knowing the (balls) mentality of most Slashdot contributors, everyone will be going 'In S-S-SOVIET RU-RU-RUSSIA' within days. Or not :-D
Besides, Slashdot needs some new trends. Soviet Russia is way (clitoris) past its prime now, and hot grits, Natalie Portman, PROFIT!!, and Beowulf Clusters are truly dead and buried. See my sig.
Another trend is throwing random porn related words into otherwise insightful posts and seeing if you still (cock) get moderated up.
mogorific carpentry experiments
Disheartening? Maybe if you own part of Monster.com.
What percentage of all available jobs do you think are posted on the site? I'd bet good money that it is less then 5% and and I'd even feel pretty good on a bet that it is less then 1%.
I'm prety confidant that there are more then 9741 job openings for programmers in the U.S.
Do you want your compiler saving registers and setting up stack frames behind your back?
[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
I really miss Delphi/Pascal/Kylix !?!?!? This list is far from complete since these languages are used a lot in rapid development....
Spelling errors were made for your amusement only...
This is a common argument, and there is obviously some element of truth to it, but it's still flawed for two big reasons.
If you think you can take a Java programmer, even one with several years of experience, and get him to program industrial strength C++ with a good book and a couple of weeks of on-the-job practice, I think you're mistaken. He'll write code that compiles, but it won't use the RAII idiom to avoid resource leaks, base classes won't have empty virtual destructors, large class hierarchies won't be divided into a sensible arrangement of files resulting in hideous dependencies at build times, he'll pass random boolean parameters to functions where enumerations are appropriate, etc.
Similarly, you try taking a guy who's used to C and getting him to write functional code using high-level functions, currying and lazy evaluation. The mindset just isn't there, and takes time to develop, not a copy of Learn This Fab Language In 30 Seconds.
The experience issue just isn't as straightforward as some (mostly theoretical, with a heavy CS background) people make out. Experience with general programming technique is very important, but experience with the actual tools still counts for a lot, too.
And before anyone flames, be aware that I'm a professional developer with experience using several diverse languages, and a CS qualification from a well-regarded university, so I don't have any axe to grind against CS here.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Ever occured to you that perhaps the language(s) used are part and parcel of the results? If you write your code in Haskell, and I write it in Java, assuming identical end functionality and other end-user quality metrics, which is better? The Java codebase. Why? Maintenance. It is *really* dumb from a business perspective to depend on any one person being in any one position. If the Haskell-codebase's maintainer died, quit, got sick for six months, shaved his/her head and became a Hare Krishna dropout, where does this leave the company? Searching desperately for a Haskell programmer, which may take a long time given that the number of really good Haskell developers is epsilon small compared to, say, the number of really good Java developers. [I'm using Haskell and Java as comparative examples here, you can sub in any(rare|common) couplet of languages you want.]
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Java is just the buzzword that almost all IT managers think that their applicants should have.
I have seen dozens of job postings for positions like System Administrator and Database Administrator that had NOTHING to do with Java, and yet, somehow, Java finds its way onto the list of requirements. I've seen several of my managers post job openings requesting Java experience while our department did absolutely no Java work whatsoever.
It seems to be that companies are moving from VB to .NET, not that Java developers are moving to .NET.
.NET than VB- not because Java is conceptually further away from .NET than VB is (it definitely is not) but because it comes from a different vendor (Sun). That makes it harder for MS to write a good porting tool. And people generally chose Java in the first place because they wanted to deploy their stuff on Unix and Linux servers (thus avoiding the vendor lock-in and security issues associated with Windows) while still being free to develop on their Windows laptops- on which the OS choice is a relatively minor project consideration. So there is that.
.NET isn't as trivial as the VB->VB.net migration. J# gives you Java-like syntax. But while syntax seems like a major issue from a beginner's perspective because it's the first thing you have to learn, it's minor compared to library support. You eventually invest more time learning the library than the syntax. The .NET framework is a completely different animal than the Java libraries that you've learned and that your Java programs have been compiled against. And seriously, who would want to use J# for a new project when C# is available?
.NET are:
.NET framework APIs.
.NET brings to the table. Actually, that was a nice thing about J++/WFC a few years ago. Having to choose between VB or C++ w/MFC just sucked. (Although there are certainly alternatives: Python/Tkinter, Mozilla/XUL, etc.)
.NET on their resumes. Although .NET will quickly succumb to this too. But a programmer who knows both is that much more employable than one who knows only Java. Still, and this cannot be emphasized enough, companies want expertise in their field. Knowing a programming language isn't enough- you should also know the gritty details about a specific industry (trucking, pharmaceuticals, retail, online pornography, accountancy, whatever). If you're a nervously employed Java programmer, learning .NET might not help you as much as becoming an expert in whatever your company does- even if that is the boring part of your job. By gaining industry expertise, you help yourself stick out from all the $7/hr people in India who are itching to replace you.
This is not surprising at all and it's what I've been hearing from everybody. Java code is harder to port to
The migration path from Java to
VB and VB.net are both MS creations and MS is exerting pressure on the VB community to switch. A VB programmer can practically feel Microsoft's bayonet in his back pushing him down the VB.net migration path. And the porting tools are relatively straightforward for MS to implement, since they control both technologies. So if you program VB (ASP or not) for a living, I think you'd better learn VB.net ASAP.
If you're a Java programmer, however, it isn't as clear. The best arguments I can think of for learning
-The obvious conceptual similarity to Java means that you've already mastered at least the fundamentals- even if you still have a lot of studying ahead to learn the
-Java is generally considered inadequate for Windows client applications. (Unless you're developing on Linux using SWT/gcj and cross compiling to generate a Win32 EXE, or you're just compiling against the SWT library using javac and distributing a JAR and DLL. SWT does give your Java program that nice "C++ feel" you always wanted.) This isn't really Java's fault, it's Sun's for providing horrible GUI APIs like Swing/AWT. They make it way too obvious to everybody that you implemented your program with Java. Even though MS marketing still has its head stuck up its ass with this "XML web services" hype, the relative ease of writing simple desktop applications for Windows is a major thing that
-Java/J2EE skills (and server programming skills in general) may turn out to be insufficient for paying the rent/mortgage (tech slump, telecommuters from Calcutta, etc.), and not many people (yet) have
And, right there, you have an explanation of why most software teams fail, most commercial software products suck, and so many people keep buying junk development tools: software teams in industry don't have a clue what they are doing. They are just plugging together a bunch of library routines. They don't know whether to use quicksort or mergesort. They are mystified by what a garbage collector does and how to tune code to perform well. They have no clue what happens when they write "new object". TCP/IP might as well be ESP.
Thank you for demonstrating this point so clearly for us all. PS: Would you mind telling us where you work, as a warning?
Right, but the buzzwords land the interview. The experience section of a resume and the interview ought to cover the details. As an interviewer, you obviously would ask about all those twenty listed languages, and in the process would probably discover a lot. To leave the buzzwords and the even vague descriptive phrases off a resume is dumb.
must... stay... awake...
public static final int X_00 = 0;
public static final int X_01 = 1;
...
public static final int X_FF = 255;
I asked him what was up with that. His reply? "Java doesn't have hex support built in." My reply: "Uhm, yeah it does. Always did, in fact." His reply: "Oh, well, I never found it."
Knowledge of the language and its libraries are extremely important.
That's not an accurate figure, either. In the US, most substantial governments and many large employers mandate that all jobs go through an open hiring process that does have most or all openings posted, published or advertised. These represent far more than 2% of jobs.
Small businesses do much more hiring by other means, but they also do far more than their pro-rata share of firings and closings, too. In recent times around here, you cannot advertise a job vacancy for a decent tech job without getting deluged with hundreds of applicants, and if you give a phone number, you are out of business for weeks answering calls. Small businesses can't stand this and find other ways to hire. Of course, the current employment situation for tech workers makes it very likely that anyone needing to hire a tech worker already knows well two or three very qualified candidates needing work. In this situation, building a network of casual acquaintances is less help than one might hope, because everyone not tied up by a formal hiring process is hiring close friends and relatives.
I have been looking at job openings closely for about three years now. I estimate that advertised tech job openings in my area fell about 75% between 6/2000 and 9/2001 and have fallen another 75% since then. Advertised pay rates are also way down. Find another career.
For example, Computerjobs.com job openings count for my area is down to around ten jobs from around 150, dice down to around 200 from around 1200 with a much larger percentage of duplicate postings, tech job openings at governments and large employers down about 90%, local classified advertising down about 90%.
Taking Japan by storm, anyway.....too bad not here
Yeah, here in the US I wouldn't exactly say that Ruby is taking the country by storm, but it does seem to be making steady progress. It would be nice if it were going a bit faster...
Problem is, no CS graduates do know this.
Absolute hogwash. I've been in this business for 20 years and interviewed developers for probably 100 openings. When I see no formal computer science education I put that resume on the bottom of the pile. Not all entry-level CS majors are ready to hit the ground running but at least you know that they have been exposed to a broad range of programming and software engineering topics. And in my experience, it's the physics and EE folks that I have had the most problems with.
I believe the biggest problem in our industry today is bad IS management. In my experience, IS managers without formal CS education are the reason that IS fails to meet business expectations. And I sense a lot of 'tude from the poster...probably does not have a CS degree and wants to get back at those who do.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
You're argument is broke.
Given sets A and B where A is a superset of B, we know: if b is an element in B then b is also an element in A. Or, in other words, all b's in B are also in A. Any element a in A, may or may not be in B.
But, following this logic, all we would have is that "All C coders are C++ coders.", not "All C++ coders are C coders."
But even when the statement is written that way, it still doesn't really work in practice. Sure you *could* be a C-only coder and code using a C++ compiler--but you wouldn't like it. Besides, what would be the point of using a C++ compiler with all its complexity if you're only writing C code? Finally, how could you claim to be a C++ coder if you didn't know what a class was?
Furry cows moo and decompress.
That last one bothers me a lot. It means you *have to* become part of the problem in order to get noticed. Being honest on your resume means not getting any calls. Employers assume you are exaggerating whether you are or not, so if you don't exaggerate they picture you being a lot less qualified than you are. At least that's the way it seemed the last time I was looking to change jobs, which admittedly was over six years ago so things may have changed.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I see a lot of problems in this: 1 Where is Cobol? I can tell you it's used more widely than Scheme or Smalltalk or LISP. 2 C and C++ get mangled... usually you're asked for both. Sometimes you are asked for ONE of them, but great expertise. And top level jobs are more C than C++ in my experience. 3 Where is Assembler? (x86, PPC, SPARC, MIPS ...)
There are very well paid jobs in reverse engineering, speed-critical appliances and the like.
4 Salaries are not even mentioned. I don't know about you, but there IS a threshold for me - I won't even consider crap jobs.
I think people should list examples of most favoured/complex/interesting/noteworthy programs they wrote in each of the languages they say they know.
:).
That'll be more helpful eh?
If I see 20 languages with no details I'm tempted to think Hello World level for at least half of them.
Then again if someone has a single Hello World source which runs in 20 rather different languages... Now that's different