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Number of Jobs by Programming Language
The Viking writes "I was curious about which programming languages are hot with employers, so I did an informal search of several job search engines. The results are interesting (to me, at least). Are these numbers relevant? We can certainly debate whether or not the online job search engines are representative of the actual employment landscape."
Where is it? PHP has become the defacto standard for developing new websites. There are certainly more PHP jobds then Python ones. It would also be interesting
to learn about employment oportunities for ppl with older skills like Cobol, Fortran, Assembler.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
This isn't offtopic, it's research into the right buzzwords to get a job. Do you know even one serious programmer who can't code in any language if presented a pocket reference guide? Citing specific languages in a job search is all about buzzwords for resumes.
Gee, typical.
Lets broaden the search to languages commoningly used in minis and mainframes. Perhaps the results will be more relevant?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Perl is a scripting language too, and its up there.. it takes a bit of programming knowledge to write good scripts.
Furthermore, the searcher omitted C. C is still a very popular language for embedded applications. Everybody I know around here that got hired recently got hired to write C or assembly for hubs, cell phones, TVs or printers. I program almost entirely in C for work but I program in Java for fun.
These job sites are not the way to go. I'd say a survey of recent CS grads, and people that recently got new jobs would give much different results. Even a slashdot survey saying "Which language do you use most at work?" would be better.
It h-has become a disturbing trend in recruitment circles to advertise jobs you don't actually have, in order to mine résumés for potential employer contacts. I know that this is especially common in the UK. I'd bet that less than half of these jobs are real.
Another worrying trend is that I know people who've responded to job ads, and even gone for interview, and have been told that the job doesn't exist, but that they wanted a healthy batch of résumés on file for when the economy picks up(!!)
Th-th-the best people to ask are the freelance workers, the people actually here on Slashdot. What languages are most in demand?
In the main, as a programmer myself, I find that specific, er, languages are not demanded so much. People want solutions, unh, not languages. That said, from the REAL ads I see (I'm in numerous freelance work groups), PHP and MySQL are way way way at the top of the tree, followed by Java.
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Seems to me its more important to know algorithms, data structures, how to implement parsers, how to optimize databases(or knowing when its better to use a custom data structure rather than a database), etc.
But the job ads almost universally ask for knowledge of the specific language. I've worked with C++, Java, VB, Perl, SQL, XML, Javascript, and others, but in my experience knowing what to do with these languages far outweighs knowing the language itself. Why don't recruiters see this?
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I strongly disagree with that approach.
I've picked up a working knowledge of many languages over the years but I'm not to say that I am an expert, or even proficient.
Expertise in a language implies you know the compiler and runtime environment very, very well. It also implies that you know the common pitfalls, strengths concerning the langauage and you know how to deal with them.
It's all vague "proficient", "expert", "knows". I'd say what you discribed wouldn't pass for more than "familar", ie. "familar with language x"
I am very wary of people that list 20 different languages on their resume, or suggest that they know these languages otherwise. Not that I'm in a position to make hiring decisions right now though.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Becoming a language guru will inevitably involve deeper issues anyway, as true language gurus often delve into the implementation tools (compilers, VMs) for their given language.
"Big thinkers" on the other hand, tend to be just that. Lots of talk and little action. The bottom line is that you are trying to push out code to make money.
No, I'm sorry I have to agree with the guy above (as well as you). It's true that *really* knowing how how to program is more valuable on the whole than being an expert in a particular language... however, on a specific project, and with certain languages (perl is a fairly good example), prior deep experience with the specific language can make a HUGE difference.
[Just so you understand that I'm not talking out of my ass, I've been programming for 20 years, broken down for the large part (with some overlap) as about 9 C/C++, 7 FORTRAN, 5 BASIC , 4 assembly (various) and 4 Perl (plus a bunch of other pedagogical languages like scheme and so on).]
I would consider someone a hell of a lot more valuable if they had a lot of experience with several different programming languages, because, as you said above, they are more likely to understand the fundamental concepts of programming. However, I'm working in a Perl shop right now (and unlike these other posters, I DO make hiring decisions), and at this stage, I wouldn't consider anyone for a senior position who didn't have consierable experience with Perl. There are a lot of reasons, but one of the biggest ones is: 3 months to get up to speed or 6 months? Consider how much they're being paid, and the opporunity cost of 3 more months, and its just not worth it.
Perl is definitely derived from C (as well from shell and various others), but a guy with C and Java and COBOL and whatever else is just NOT gonna be able to run with Perl that quickly, period. Perl is too different in terms of the tools that you actually use (I'm not talking about syntax or silly little idioms and all of the magic variables in Perl). I mean, if you're programming in Perl, and you're not thinking "how would regular expressions and/or hash tables (for example) make this easier?" then you're probably just not doing it right (whatever "it" is). If you're really convinced that isn't how you should be using Perl for this situation, then you probably shouldn't be using Perl anyway. (I love Perl, but it's not the answer to everything).
Ugh, I'm rambling now... anyway, I'd say that what you said is *mostly* true, but almost every language has things about it that separate it and make partiular expertise valuable (in at least some situations). Hire someone to write C/C++ because they know Java, C#, Perl and Basic? But they've never used a pointer!!!! Hire someone to write Java because they've used C/C++, Fortran, and PHP? But are they really thinking about threads from the get-go? Etcetera... I hope you see my point.
:Wq
Not an editor command: Wq
This table is completely disheartening if you're a programmer. Monster has over 250 cities/areas you can search (on their US site, that is), making an average of 10 or so jobs for the top 3 languages PER AREA. Yuck. Obviously this won't be the case, but that means some areas will have NO jobs listed for a particular area. With a total of 9741 job listings, that makes a total paper average of ~40 jobs per area. I really hope things start looking better than this.
Another thing to consider, of the total 20K jobs across all 3 services, how many of those are dupes? Maybe half? More?
Do you want your compiler saving registers and setting up stack frames behind your back?
[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
This is a common argument, and there is obviously some element of truth to it, but it's still flawed for two big reasons.
If you think you can take a Java programmer, even one with several years of experience, and get him to program industrial strength C++ with a good book and a couple of weeks of on-the-job practice, I think you're mistaken. He'll write code that compiles, but it won't use the RAII idiom to avoid resource leaks, base classes won't have empty virtual destructors, large class hierarchies won't be divided into a sensible arrangement of files resulting in hideous dependencies at build times, he'll pass random boolean parameters to functions where enumerations are appropriate, etc.
Similarly, you try taking a guy who's used to C and getting him to write functional code using high-level functions, currying and lazy evaluation. The mindset just isn't there, and takes time to develop, not a copy of Learn This Fab Language In 30 Seconds.
The experience issue just isn't as straightforward as some (mostly theoretical, with a heavy CS background) people make out. Experience with general programming technique is very important, but experience with the actual tools still counts for a lot, too.
And before anyone flames, be aware that I'm a professional developer with experience using several diverse languages, and a CS qualification from a well-regarded university, so I don't have any axe to grind against CS here.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Ever occured to you that perhaps the language(s) used are part and parcel of the results? If you write your code in Haskell, and I write it in Java, assuming identical end functionality and other end-user quality metrics, which is better? The Java codebase. Why? Maintenance. It is *really* dumb from a business perspective to depend on any one person being in any one position. If the Haskell-codebase's maintainer died, quit, got sick for six months, shaved his/her head and became a Hare Krishna dropout, where does this leave the company? Searching desperately for a Haskell programmer, which may take a long time given that the number of really good Haskell developers is epsilon small compared to, say, the number of really good Java developers. [I'm using Haskell and Java as comparative examples here, you can sub in any(rare|common) couplet of languages you want.]
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Java is just the buzzword that almost all IT managers think that their applicants should have.
I have seen dozens of job postings for positions like System Administrator and Database Administrator that had NOTHING to do with Java, and yet, somehow, Java finds its way onto the list of requirements. I've seen several of my managers post job openings requesting Java experience while our department did absolutely no Java work whatsoever.
It seems to be that companies are moving from VB to .NET, not that Java developers are moving to .NET.
.NET than VB- not because Java is conceptually further away from .NET than VB is (it definitely is not) but because it comes from a different vendor (Sun). That makes it harder for MS to write a good porting tool. And people generally chose Java in the first place because they wanted to deploy their stuff on Unix and Linux servers (thus avoiding the vendor lock-in and security issues associated with Windows) while still being free to develop on their Windows laptops- on which the OS choice is a relatively minor project consideration. So there is that.
.NET isn't as trivial as the VB->VB.net migration. J# gives you Java-like syntax. But while syntax seems like a major issue from a beginner's perspective because it's the first thing you have to learn, it's minor compared to library support. You eventually invest more time learning the library than the syntax. The .NET framework is a completely different animal than the Java libraries that you've learned and that your Java programs have been compiled against. And seriously, who would want to use J# for a new project when C# is available?
.NET are:
.NET framework APIs.
.NET brings to the table. Actually, that was a nice thing about J++/WFC a few years ago. Having to choose between VB or C++ w/MFC just sucked. (Although there are certainly alternatives: Python/Tkinter, Mozilla/XUL, etc.)
.NET on their resumes. Although .NET will quickly succumb to this too. But a programmer who knows both is that much more employable than one who knows only Java. Still, and this cannot be emphasized enough, companies want expertise in their field. Knowing a programming language isn't enough- you should also know the gritty details about a specific industry (trucking, pharmaceuticals, retail, online pornography, accountancy, whatever). If you're a nervously employed Java programmer, learning .NET might not help you as much as becoming an expert in whatever your company does- even if that is the boring part of your job. By gaining industry expertise, you help yourself stick out from all the $7/hr people in India who are itching to replace you.
This is not surprising at all and it's what I've been hearing from everybody. Java code is harder to port to
The migration path from Java to
VB and VB.net are both MS creations and MS is exerting pressure on the VB community to switch. A VB programmer can practically feel Microsoft's bayonet in his back pushing him down the VB.net migration path. And the porting tools are relatively straightforward for MS to implement, since they control both technologies. So if you program VB (ASP or not) for a living, I think you'd better learn VB.net ASAP.
If you're a Java programmer, however, it isn't as clear. The best arguments I can think of for learning
-The obvious conceptual similarity to Java means that you've already mastered at least the fundamentals- even if you still have a lot of studying ahead to learn the
-Java is generally considered inadequate for Windows client applications. (Unless you're developing on Linux using SWT/gcj and cross compiling to generate a Win32 EXE, or you're just compiling against the SWT library using javac and distributing a JAR and DLL. SWT does give your Java program that nice "C++ feel" you always wanted.) This isn't really Java's fault, it's Sun's for providing horrible GUI APIs like Swing/AWT. They make it way too obvious to everybody that you implemented your program with Java. Even though MS marketing still has its head stuck up its ass with this "XML web services" hype, the relative ease of writing simple desktop applications for Windows is a major thing that
-Java/J2EE skills (and server programming skills in general) may turn out to be insufficient for paying the rent/mortgage (tech slump, telecommuters from Calcutta, etc.), and not many people (yet) have
And, right there, you have an explanation of why most software teams fail, most commercial software products suck, and so many people keep buying junk development tools: software teams in industry don't have a clue what they are doing. They are just plugging together a bunch of library routines. They don't know whether to use quicksort or mergesort. They are mystified by what a garbage collector does and how to tune code to perform well. They have no clue what happens when they write "new object". TCP/IP might as well be ESP.
Thank you for demonstrating this point so clearly for us all. PS: Would you mind telling us where you work, as a warning?
That's not an accurate figure, either. In the US, most substantial governments and many large employers mandate that all jobs go through an open hiring process that does have most or all openings posted, published or advertised. These represent far more than 2% of jobs.
Small businesses do much more hiring by other means, but they also do far more than their pro-rata share of firings and closings, too. In recent times around here, you cannot advertise a job vacancy for a decent tech job without getting deluged with hundreds of applicants, and if you give a phone number, you are out of business for weeks answering calls. Small businesses can't stand this and find other ways to hire. Of course, the current employment situation for tech workers makes it very likely that anyone needing to hire a tech worker already knows well two or three very qualified candidates needing work. In this situation, building a network of casual acquaintances is less help than one might hope, because everyone not tied up by a formal hiring process is hiring close friends and relatives.
I have been looking at job openings closely for about three years now. I estimate that advertised tech job openings in my area fell about 75% between 6/2000 and 9/2001 and have fallen another 75% since then. Advertised pay rates are also way down. Find another career.
For example, Computerjobs.com job openings count for my area is down to around ten jobs from around 150, dice down to around 200 from around 1200 with a much larger percentage of duplicate postings, tech job openings at governments and large employers down about 90%, local classified advertising down about 90%.
Problem is, no CS graduates do know this.
Absolute hogwash. I've been in this business for 20 years and interviewed developers for probably 100 openings. When I see no formal computer science education I put that resume on the bottom of the pile. Not all entry-level CS majors are ready to hit the ground running but at least you know that they have been exposed to a broad range of programming and software engineering topics. And in my experience, it's the physics and EE folks that I have had the most problems with.
I believe the biggest problem in our industry today is bad IS management. In my experience, IS managers without formal CS education are the reason that IS fails to meet business expectations. And I sense a lot of 'tude from the poster...probably does not have a CS degree and wants to get back at those who do.
I want to be alone with the sandwich
That last one bothers me a lot. It means you *have to* become part of the problem in order to get noticed. Being honest on your resume means not getting any calls. Employers assume you are exaggerating whether you are or not, so if you don't exaggerate they picture you being a lot less qualified than you are. At least that's the way it seemed the last time I was looking to change jobs, which admittedly was over six years ago so things may have changed.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.