Number of Jobs by Programming Language

The Viking writes "I was curious about which programming languages are hot with employers, so I did an informal search of several job search engines. The results are interesting (to me, at least). Are these numbers relevant? We can certainly debate whether or not the online job search engines are representative of the actual employment landscape."

Comments

Forth

[Tri0de]

forth use = if unemployed then

Re:Forth

[SimHacker]

forth ?know if honk else forth learn then

Slashdotted

[cperciva]

That was quick. Here's the important part (without the table tags):

Number of Job Listings by Programming Language (January 3, 2003)

monster.com hotjobs.com dice.com %

Java 2739 1000* 1957 27.82%
C++ 2103 1000* 1534 22.65%
Visual Basic 2070 969 1127 20.35%
Perl 955 517 577 10.01%
Javascript 925 455 498 9.17%
C# 290 235* 183 3.46%
Ada 384 175 57 3.01%
Fortran 124 68 48 1.17%
Scheme 39* 138* 46* 1.09%
Python 58 43 33 0.65%
Smalltalk 42 27 32 0.49%
Lisp 12 4 9 0.12%

9741 4631 6101

* hotjobs.com changes a search of "C#" to a search of "C", so I averaged monster and dice.

* hotjobs.com limits the number of results that a query can return to 1000.

* Searching on the term "scheme" may result in false positives.

Re:Slashdotted

[Zeebs]

So by this we can tell that companies are first wanting to make software that can run everywhere, and third software that will run no where. Interesting indeed. Looking further at these stats we see that 4th is software no one can read after writing. Further still, 3.46%(C#) of software jobs are with companies who probly want "An XML based .net solution for a dynamicly static problem range to achieve syenergy with other units"(I don't know enough buzzwords sorry)

Re:Slashdotted

[Alien54]

here it is, made all pretty:

monster.com hotjobs.com dice.com %

Java 2739 1000 1957 27.82%
C++ 2103 1000 1534 22.65%
Visual Basic 2070 969 1127 20.35%
Perl 955 517 577 10.01%
Javascript 925 455 498 9.17%
C# 290 235 183 3.46%
Ada 384 175 57 3.01%
Fortran 124 68 48 1.17%
Scheme 39 138 46 1.09%
Python 58 43 33 0.65%
Smalltalk 42 27 32 0.49%
Lisp 12 4 9 0.12%

9741 4631 6101

Re:Slashdotted

[macrom]

This table is completely disheartening if you're a programmer. Monster has over 250 cities/areas you can search (on their US site, that is), making an average of 10 or so jobs for the top 3 languages PER AREA. Yuck. Obviously this won't be the case, but that means some areas will have NO jobs listed for a particular area. With a total of 9741 job listings, that makes a total paper average of ~40 jobs per area. I really hope things start looking better than this.

Another thing to consider, of the total 20K jobs across all 3 services, how many of those are dupes? Maybe half? More?

Re:Slashdotted

[Lucas Membrane]

less than 2% of jobs are ever published

That's not an accurate figure, either. In the US, most substantial governments and many large employers mandate that all jobs go through an open hiring process that does have most or all openings posted, published or advertised. These represent far more than 2% of jobs.

Small businesses do much more hiring by other means, but they also do far more than their pro-rata share of firings and closings, too. In recent times around here, you cannot advertise a job vacancy for a decent tech job without getting deluged with hundreds of applicants, and if you give a phone number, you are out of business for weeks answering calls. Small businesses can't stand this and find other ways to hire. Of course, the current employment situation for tech workers makes it very likely that anyone needing to hire a tech worker already knows well two or three very qualified candidates needing work. In this situation, building a network of casual acquaintances is less help than one might hope, because everyone not tied up by a formal hiring process is hiring close friends and relatives.

I have been looking at job openings closely for about three years now. I estimate that advertised tech job openings in my area fell about 75% between 6/2000 and 9/2001 and have fallen another 75% since then. Advertised pay rates are also way down. Find another career.

For example, Computerjobs.com job openings count for my area is down to around ten jobs from around 150, dice down to around 200 from around 1200 with a much larger percentage of duplicate postings, tech job openings at governments and large employers down about 90%, local classified advertising down about 90%.

Re:Slashdotted

[Lucas Membrane]

Yes, the percentage of new hires made by small companies is high. But don't give the small companies too much credit. The percentage of employment in small companies is much lower, however, as those who work in small companies tend to need to find work much more often.

The statistics look like this:

• About 20% of private US employment is in companies with fewer than 20 employees, but about half of that is in firms so small that you have zero chance of getting hired unless you are a good friend or relative.
• About 20% of private US employment is in firms with 20-99 employees.
• About 15% of civilian US employment is in the government sector (Fed/State/Local).

Java & ASP

[AppHack]

I work for a computer consulting company which deals with mainly Fortune 500 companies. Java is the most requested language with VB/ASP coming in next. .NET is starting to grow and we anticipate it will continue next year. It seems to be that companies are moving from VB to .NET, not that Java developers are moving to .NET.

Re:Java & ASP

[MillionthMonkey]

It seems to be that companies are moving from VB to .NET, not that Java developers are moving to .NET.

This is not surprising at all and it's what I've been hearing from everybody. Java code is harder to port to .NET than VB- not because Java is conceptually further away from .NET than VB is (it definitely is not) but because it comes from a different vendor (Sun). That makes it harder for MS to write a good porting tool. And people generally chose Java in the first place because they wanted to deploy their stuff on Unix and Linux servers (thus avoiding the vendor lock-in and security issues associated with Windows) while still being free to develop on their Windows laptops- on which the OS choice is a relatively minor project consideration. So there is that.

The migration path from Java to .NET isn't as trivial as the VB->VB.net migration. J# gives you Java-like syntax. But while syntax seems like a major issue from a beginner's perspective because it's the first thing you have to learn, it's minor compared to library support. You eventually invest more time learning the library than the syntax. The .NET framework is a completely different animal than the Java libraries that you've learned and that your Java programs have been compiled against. And seriously, who would want to use J# for a new project when C# is available?

VB and VB.net are both MS creations and MS is exerting pressure on the VB community to switch. A VB programmer can practically feel Microsoft's bayonet in his back pushing him down the VB.net migration path. And the porting tools are relatively straightforward for MS to implement, since they control both technologies. So if you program VB (ASP or not) for a living, I think you'd better learn VB.net ASAP.

If you're a Java programmer, however, it isn't as clear. The best arguments I can think of for learning .NET are:

-The obvious conceptual similarity to Java means that you've already mastered at least the fundamentals- even if you still have a lot of studying ahead to learn the .NET framework APIs.

-Java is generally considered inadequate for Windows client applications. (Unless you're developing on Linux using SWT/gcj and cross compiling to generate a Win32 EXE, or you're just compiling against the SWT library using javac and distributing a JAR and DLL. SWT does give your Java program that nice "C++ feel" you always wanted.) This isn't really Java's fault, it's Sun's for providing horrible GUI APIs like Swing/AWT. They make it way too obvious to everybody that you implemented your program with Java. Even though MS marketing still has its head stuck up its ass with this "XML web services" hype, the relative ease of writing simple desktop applications for Windows is a major thing that .NET brings to the table. Actually, that was a nice thing about J++/WFC a few years ago. Having to choose between VB or C++ w/MFC just sucked. (Although there are certainly alternatives: Python/Tkinter, Mozilla/XUL, etc.)

-Java/J2EE skills (and server programming skills in general) may turn out to be insufficient for paying the rent/mortgage (tech slump, telecommuters from Calcutta, etc.), and not many people (yet) have .NET on their resumes. Although .NET will quickly succumb to this too. But a programmer who knows both is that much more employable than one who knows only Java. Still, and this cannot be emphasized enough, companies want expertise in their field. Knowing a programming language isn't enough- you should also know the gritty details about a specific industry (trucking, pharmaceuticals, retail, online pornography, accountancy, whatever). If you're a nervously employed Java programmer, learning .NET might not help you as much as becoming an expert in whatever your company does- even if that is the boring part of your job. By gaining industry expertise, you help yourself stick out from all the $7/hr people in India who are itching to replace you.

PHP???

[Reservoir Penguin]

Where is it? PHP has become the defacto standard for developing new websites. There are certainly more PHP jobds then Python ones. It would also be interesting
to learn about employment oportunities for ppl with older skills like Cobol, Fortran, Assembler.

Re:PHP???

[JimDabell]

Please troll elsewhere:

Yahoo Embraces PHP, Expands Open-Source Commitment

PHP Usage Stats

Re:PHP???

[Malcontent]

"I'd like you to point out a large retailer that uses php for its online store, or an online banking site."

I am not sure where you are getting at with this. If you mean it's not possible to build a large, complex and busy site using php you need to look no further then sourceforge. Now sourceforge is not a commercial site but I bet it gets more use then 99% of the commercial sites on the net.

I don't know why it's so special to have a commercial site in php but I know of several. Here are just a few companies that I have dealt with which use php on their web sites.

Nonetheless if you insist on an example of a large online store using php look at
Insight.com or catalog.com

Re:PHP???

[Billly Gates]

Like ASP, PHP pages have the engine compilied as a module that loads with the HTTP Server. This makes it lightening fast like asp. I would think in heavy websites that php would be alot better then interpretive languages like Java or Perl. I do not understand your argument on why php is used by only a small to medium websites. It frankly can scale quite high and maybe the only solution available besides ASP for really high end websites.

Retailers have been on the web since the dawn of the web browser in the mid 1990's. They already standardized on their development tools years before php became what it is today. Like Perl and Java before it, it will take some time before it takes over.

For a new website php is a compelling language to choose. For an existing website it may not be worth it due to the costs of retraining the developers as well as redeveloping all of the website code. As recent as the late 1990's the vast majority of websites still used only dynamic html and javascript with a few experimenting with asp.

This happened even though perl and java EE were already out and capable. Infact Perl using cgi and Java EE are now just starting to become standard in the corporate community even though they have been ready for years. Its because companies like what they have and do not want to change. Same argument for php applies here.

In 5 years I bet at least %25 of the big web sites will use php. That is unless trusted computing aka pallidium takes over where asp will be the only thing that will be accepted when doing commerce on the web. *shudder**

p>Php is advanced and certainly is enterprise ready with loads of libraries and features. It is used on quite a few commercial websites already.

At what price?

[Qender]

If only we had some numbers on the average pay for each position, I'de be willing to bet that while Java is real popular, you would get much higher pay for fortran.

Maybe the price of the programmers is also affecting which language people are hiring for.

Re:Already slashdotted

[shaitand]

This isn't offtopic, it's research into the right buzzwords to get a job. Do you know even one serious programmer who can't code in any language if presented a pocket reference guide? Citing specific languages in a job search is all about buzzwords for resumes.

Ignorant, only PC languages were chosen?

[Shivetya]

Gee, typical.

Lets broaden the search to languages commoningly used in minis and mainframes. Perhaps the results will be more relevant?

Re:Javascript is programming???

[jolujogat]

Perl is a scripting language too, and its up there.. it takes a bit of programming knowledge to write good scripts.

What lousy methodology.

[DeadSea]

Job openings are crammed with requirements that are not necessary. Applicant should have 5 years experience with C#. Applicant should be fluent in Perl, Lisp, Scheme, and Fortran (Yeah I'm sure you'll use all those).

Furthermore, the searcher omitted C. C is still a very popular language for embedded applications. Everybody I know around here that got hired recently got hired to write C or assembly for hubs, cell phones, TVs or printers. I program almost entirely in C for work but I program in Java for fun.

These job sites are not the way to go. I'd say a survey of recent CS grads, and people that recently got new jobs would give much different results. Even a slashdot survey saying "Which language do you use most at work?" would be better.

Re:What lousy methodology.

[Waffle Iron]

Even a slashdot survey saying "Which language do you use most at work?" would be better.

Typical data point:

Which language do you use most at work?

( ) C/C++
( ) Java
( ) Perl ( ) Would you like to supersize that for only 39 cents extra?
(X) CowboyNeal

These figures aren't useful at all.

[wackybrit]

It h-has become a disturbing trend in recruitment circles to advertise jobs you don't actually have, in order to mine résumés for potential employer contacts. I know that this is especially common in the UK. I'd bet that less than half of these jobs are real.

Another worrying trend is that I know people who've responded to job ads, and even gone for interview, and have been told that the job doesn't exist, but that they wanted a healthy batch of résumés on file for when the economy picks up(!!)

Th-th-the best people to ask are the freelance workers, the people actually here on Slashdot. What languages are most in demand?

In the main, as a programmer myself, I find that specific, er, languages are not demanded so much. People want solutions, unh, not languages. That said, from the REAL ads I see (I'm in numerous freelance work groups), PHP and MySQL are way way way at the top of the tree, followed by Java.

I've always wondered

[Pinball Wizard]

Why do specific languages seem to be more important to employers than CS concepts. Someone with a good background in CS should be able to work in a number of languages and be able to pick up new ones quickly.

Seems to me its more important to know algorithms, data structures, how to implement parsers, how to optimize databases(or knowing when its better to use a custom data structure rather than a database), etc.

But the job ads almost universally ask for knowledge of the specific language. I've worked with C++, Java, VB, Perl, SQL, XML, Javascript, and others, but in my experience knowing what to do with these languages far outweighs knowing the language itself. Why don't recruiters see this?

Re:I've always wondered

[sql*kitten]

Seems to me its more important to know algorithms, data structures, how to implement parsers, how to optimize databases(or knowing when its better to use a custom data structure rather than a database), etc.

Problem is, no CS graduates do know this. Sure, they know how to implement a compiler from scratch in 68000 assembly language, but none of them know how to exploit SUNPro or VC++ features properly. Loads of them know about parsers, none of them know how to code to make things easy for a debugger. Loads of them know about fancy research OO databases, none of them know how to design an RDBMS.

But the job ads almost universally ask for knowledge of the specific language. I've worked with C++, Java, VB, Perl, SQL, XML, Javascript, and others, but in my experience knowing what to do with these languages far outweighs knowing the language itself. Why don't recruiters see this?

Speaking from experience, I always try to hire physics, engineering or philosophy graduates for programming positions. CS graduates are worse than useless because before you can deploy them on a project you have to make them unlearn all the crap their professors (who haven't been in industry for 25 years) have taught them.

Re:I've always wondered

[JaredOfEuropa]

A very insightful remark, and I heartily recommend reading Joel Spolsky's article. Knowing the language is just one thing, knowing the APIs, and for some languages (especially VB and VBA) knowing the limitations and bugs, and how to get around them, is key. It is a common oversight when staffing a team, as well. This is where the difference in productivity of good vs average programmers (read: the Mythical man-month) is measured in factors of 10-100! It is, as Joel describes, the difference between solving a freaky bug in 3 minutes vs. 1 hour.

What has my main frustration been so far, when I held the post of development team leader? Not having a good mix of juniors and seniors! That, or having seniors who do not wish to allocate time to spend with the junior coders, reviewing their code and coaching them. The result? People are re-inventing the frikkin' wheel over and over again. This is most apparent in relation to APIs and the shortcomings of a language... but it applies to conceptual stuff like data structures and algorithms as well. You generally do not need an all-star team to be succesful, but it's worth gold to have one or two developers that know the ins and outs of the language, the database used, and the APIs.

Re:Already slashdotted

[Kunta Kinte]

This isn't offtopic, it's research into the right buzzwords to get a job. Do you know even one serious programmer who can't code in any language if presented a pocket reference guide? Citing specific languages in a job search is all about buzzwords for resumes.

I strongly disagree with that approach.

I've picked up a working knowledge of many languages over the years but I'm not to say that I am an expert, or even proficient.

Expertise in a language implies you know the compiler and runtime environment very, very well. It also implies that you know the common pitfalls, strengths concerning the langauage and you know how to deal with them.

It's all vague "proficient", "expert", "knows". I'd say what you discribed wouldn't pass for more than "familar", ie. "familar with language x"

I am very wary of people that list 20 different languages on their resume, or suggest that they know these languages otherwise. Not that I'm in a position to make hiring decisions right now though.

Re:PHP??? My Ass.

[the eric conspiracy]

PHP is the defacto standard used by newbies and children who don't want to learn a real language like perl or Java. PHP is shit.

I think PHP has a valid niche in building throwaway code for demos. Things I've used it for include:

- extremely low cost web sites with limited functionality. A person looking to get a site on the web with a concept can build a php site and put in on a shared server for $10/mo in hosting fees.

- prototyping - some times it's necessary to put together a prototype of an idea to show to a client in a hurry.

For serious work, I agree with you.

Re:Javascript is programming???

[Zontar The Mindless]

> (yes, I know you can do fairly large and complicated projects with [JavaScript], but come on... it's very limited as far as what it's able to do... (writing to files etc) )

That depends on the environment and what objects it exposes for scripting. There are a lot more implementations out there than you'd think:

1. You can use it (as JScript) serverside in ASP (or J# in ASP.Net) and for system tasks in Windows Scripting Host. (I do nearly all my ASP work using JScript.)
2. There is (or at least used to be -- haven't checked their site in a while) also a system & server scripting environment called ScriptEase that uses JavaScript and C.
3. Dreamweaver uses it for interface scripting (I'm talking about the program interface, not the JS/DHTML in DW-generated pages).
4. Adobe has a JavaScript API for PDFs.
5. Flash ActionScript is ECMAScript compliant and will look very familiar to anyone who's done clientside JS.
6. Mozilla uses XML (XUL and XBL, actually) and JavaScript to build its UI.

There are doubtless other examples.

Re:Java way up there?

[cperciva]

As for regular C... I don't think anyone out there goes "I only know C, I don't use C++ because I hate OOP and all the new extensions and improvements and such."

I do. Inheritance breaks encapsulation. If I want to pass around function points, I'll pass around function pointers; I'll not have the compiler doing it behind my back.

Re:Visual Basic in 3rd?

[vadim_t]

Well, as somebody who writes it for money I thought I'd answer...

Yes, VB is very basic, although some quite impressive stuff can be done with it. It's perfectly possible to write enterprise management stuff with it for example. If your app only needs to be a pretty interface for a database then VB is a quite good tool for that job. However, it's got a lot of problems.

There's always important functionality missing. MS has some really incredible knack for releasing a new version of VB that adds 2 or 3 features that you'd find really useful... but still hasn't found time to add unsigned types in VB6.

Lots of working around is needed. The experts in VB learn to do tricks with undocumented functions like CopyMemory, and calling the WinAPI. There's no way in VB to make a window appear on top of all the others, for example.

It's hard to use with source control tools. CVS is quite usable though, but not perfect. Just opening a project and closing it changes files, for no good reason.

And then there's the bug from Hell that sometimes makes it forget about an OCX you included and forces you to muck with project files by hand to fix it.

But, even regardless of all that people use it. I guess it's because it's really easy to do small things with it. If you need to do a quick tool that queries a database and prints a few reports then it's almost perfect. But if you're planning anything large I'd use anything else instead. Maybe Delphi, or .NET, or C. I'd say that at about 50000 lines it starts getting very annyoing.

How many of those jobs are real, though?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been my experience that Monster (don't know about the others) have a shitload of phoney jobs. Descriptions very generic, no name of company, no specific city, maybe the state. I wouldn't be suprised if the top numbers are inflated just because Monster know what people LOOKING for jobs want.

Since after all, the whole point of signing up for Monster is to start getting INCREDIBLE amounts of spam. That's what happened to myself and the whole department I was in when we got laid off and we'd all signed up with Monster.

Re:He's missing.....

[thasmudyan]

Forth:
9 (Monster, search may be incorrect)
12 (dice)
Pascal:
28 / Delphi: 158 (Monster)
17 / Delphi 58 (dice)
PHP:
189 (Monster)
31 (dice)
LISP:
12 (Monster)
9 (dice)
ADA
(search inconclusive)
Fortran
123 (Monster)
49 (dice)
Assembler
10 (Monster, search inconclusive)
Algol
0 (Monster)
2 (dice)
==================
Also:

COBOL
601 (Monster) !
547 (dice) !
Visual-Studio related jobs
299 (Monster)
142 (dice)
Linux-related jobs
881 (Monster)
400 (dice)

====
Software Developers total
3901 (Monster, 2106 "programmer" +1795 (software developer)

Because abstract skills aren't as important

[Ars-Fartsica]

This isn't a troll. I have found again and again working in industry that it is far more important to be very very good in the language of your code than to have a general grasp of concepts. Chances are your team will not be switching to a new language midstream, or trying to create a sorting routine faster than quicksort. Really, when is the last time you coded up new algorithms of a nontrivial nature? Often knowing the libraries is more important.

Becoming a language guru will inevitably involve deeper issues anyway, as true language gurus often delve into the implementation tools (compilers, VMs) for their given language.

"Big thinkers" on the other hand, tend to be just that. Lots of talk and little action. The bottom line is that you are trying to push out code to make money.

Re:Already slashdotted

[etcshadow]

No, I'm sorry I have to agree with the guy above (as well as you). It's true that *really* knowing how how to program is more valuable on the whole than being an expert in a particular language... however, on a specific project, and with certain languages (perl is a fairly good example), prior deep experience with the specific language can make a HUGE difference.

[Just so you understand that I'm not talking out of my ass, I've been programming for 20 years, broken down for the large part (with some overlap) as about 9 C/C++, 7 FORTRAN, 5 BASIC , 4 assembly (various) and 4 Perl (plus a bunch of other pedagogical languages like scheme and so on).]

I would consider someone a hell of a lot more valuable if they had a lot of experience with several different programming languages, because, as you said above, they are more likely to understand the fundamental concepts of programming. However, I'm working in a Perl shop right now (and unlike these other posters, I DO make hiring decisions), and at this stage, I wouldn't consider anyone for a senior position who didn't have consierable experience with Perl. There are a lot of reasons, but one of the biggest ones is: 3 months to get up to speed or 6 months? Consider how much they're being paid, and the opporunity cost of 3 more months, and its just not worth it.

Perl is definitely derived from C (as well from shell and various others), but a guy with C and Java and COBOL and whatever else is just NOT gonna be able to run with Perl that quickly, period. Perl is too different in terms of the tools that you actually use (I'm not talking about syntax or silly little idioms and all of the magic variables in Perl). I mean, if you're programming in Perl, and you're not thinking "how would regular expressions and/or hash tables (for example) make this easier?" then you're probably just not doing it right (whatever "it" is). If you're really convinced that isn't how you should be using Perl for this situation, then you probably shouldn't be using Perl anyway. (I love Perl, but it's not the answer to everything).

Ugh, I'm rambling now... anyway, I'd say that what you said is *mostly* true, but almost every language has things about it that separate it and make partiular expertise valuable (in at least some situations). Hire someone to write C/C++ because they know Java, C#, Perl and Basic? But they've never used a pointer!!!! Hire someone to write Java because they've used C/C++, Fortran, and PHP? But are they really thinking about threads from the get-go? Etcetera... I hope you see my point.

Re:Already slashdotted

[satch89450]

I am very wary of people that list 20 different languages on their resume, or suggest that they know these languages otherwise. Not that I'm in a position to make hiring decisions right now though.

One of the nice things about knowing and using a number of languages is that you get to pick the right tool for the right job. People like you, Kunta Kinte, seem to believe it's a good thing to limit tools; sometimes just because you have a hammer doesn't mean that everything should resemble a nail. Ever tried to write a compiler in FORTRAN, for example? Ever listen to an MSCE extoll the virtues of a certain company's products for every conceiveable problem?

Now, on my resume I list the "languages" LEX and YACC (lately more Flex/Bison), because I have found that applications-specific scripting languages can improve quality and make maintenance far easier than trying to do everything in, say, C. Many of the projects I work on are tools, not end-user apps, so providing a scripting language suited for the task makes it easy for my customers to concentrate on their jobs instead of how to get my software to do something they really want to do. Even when the scripting language is used exclusively internally, I have found that the quality of the resulting program is far higher because I've removed opportunities to screw up by using a level of abstraction. C++ and other object-oriented languages try to create a one-size-fits-all version of this, but sometimes it's just easier to think about the problem with a more free-form syntax without worring about inheretance issues, constructor/destructor conflicts, garbage collection, and the other baggage that seems to come with now-"traditional" OO programming.

How many environments do you work in? I'm equally at home in the embedded space, personal-computer applications, Web applications, secure e-commerce applications, network stuff, and man-rated programming. Each area has its own set of tools -- why shouldn't I mention them as I'm versed in using them?

Or perhaps you are of the school of "jack of all trades, master of none"? Sorry, I like challanges. I may be 50, but I can still write code. Maybe not as fast, but I'll stack the quality of my code against any person here.

Re:Already slashdotted

[netsharc]

New poll topic! But I don't think very many would vote for Visual Basic in this site..

A few months later, in a PHB-meeting: "Apparently there's an innovative language called 'Cowboyneal' that's been very popular.."

Re:Java way up there?

[miu]

I do. Inheritance breaks encapsulation. If I want to pass around function points, I'll pass around function pointers; I'll not have the compiler doing it behind my back.

Do you want your compiler saving registers and setting up stack frames behind your back?

Gah! That damned myth again

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Why do specific languages seem to be more important to employers than CS concepts. Someone with a good background in CS should be able to work in a number of languages and be able to pick up new ones quickly.

This is a common argument, and there is obviously some element of truth to it, but it's still flawed for two big reasons.

1. You can pick up the basics of new languages quickly. Learning a serious language well, including a grasp of its idioms and at least an overview of the major library components, takes a few months, or longer if you don't have good supervision/training.
2. It's relatively easy to transfer from one language to another where they follow the same paradigms (procedural, OO, functional, whatever) but learning a whole new paradigm also takes months.

If you think you can take a Java programmer, even one with several years of experience, and get him to program industrial strength C++ with a good book and a couple of weeks of on-the-job practice, I think you're mistaken. He'll write code that compiles, but it won't use the RAII idiom to avoid resource leaks, base classes won't have empty virtual destructors, large class hierarchies won't be divided into a sensible arrangement of files resulting in hideous dependencies at build times, he'll pass random boolean parameters to functions where enumerations are appropriate, etc.

Similarly, you try taking a guy who's used to C and getting him to write functional code using high-level functions, currying and lazy evaluation. The mindset just isn't there, and takes time to develop, not a copy of Learn This Fab Language In 30 Seconds.

The experience issue just isn't as straightforward as some (mostly theoretical, with a heavy CS background) people make out. Experience with general programming technique is very important, but experience with the actual tools still counts for a lot, too.

And before anyone flames, be aware that I'm a professional developer with experience using several diverse languages, and a CS qualification from a well-regarded university, so I don't have any axe to grind against CS here.

Monster.com et al

[ellem]

The people posting the jobs are insane, incompentent, idiotic or all of the above.

Favorite post:

Must have Exchange 2000 on Solaris 8.

Re:What about Haskell?

[StandardDeviant]

Ever occured to you that perhaps the language(s) used are part and parcel of the results? If you write your code in Haskell, and I write it in Java, assuming identical end functionality and other end-user quality metrics, which is better? The Java codebase. Why? Maintenance. It is *really* dumb from a business perspective to depend on any one person being in any one position. If the Haskell-codebase's maintainer died, quit, got sick for six months, shaved his/her head and became a Hare Krishna dropout, where does this leave the company? Searching desperately for a Haskell programmer, which may take a long time given that the number of really good Haskell developers is epsilon small compared to, say, the number of really good Java developers. [I'm using Haskell and Java as comparative examples here, you can sub in any(rare|common) couplet of languages you want.]

FYI, how PHP fares:

[Greedo]

PHP 189 224 31 2.12%

Which would put it somewhere between Fortran and Ada.

Re:PHP??? My Ass.

[the eric conspiracy]

You should quickly share your insights with the folks over at Yahoo!

Yahoo is doing some very strange things. They evaluated a bunch of web development technologies, decided J2EE was the best, and then chose to use PHP because FreeBSD has very bad support for threads.

Now to me that is putting the cart before the horse. First you choose what software you want to run, then you choose the platform you run it on.

Re:Pity poor programmers: JOBS BY OPERATING SYSTEM

[iggymanz]

jobs by OS on dice: Windows 2229 Solaris 685 Linux 399 AIX 367 AS/400 or OS/400 287 HP/UX 191 Novell 165 VMS 61 Mac or MacOS or System 7 58 RTOS 58 VM 31 IRIX 18 BSD 18 OS/2 13 SCO 8 Darwin 6 BeOS 0 CHORUS 0 MINIX 0 HURD 0

Java the most popular?

[Gary Franczyk]

Java is just the buzzword that almost all IT managers think that their applicants should have.

I have seen dozens of job postings for positions like System Administrator and Database Administrator that had NOTHING to do with Java, and yet, somehow, Java finds its way onto the list of requirements. I've seen several of my managers post job openings requesting Java experience while our department did absolutely no Java work whatsoever.

you wouldn't think so

[g4dget]

I have found again and again working in industry that it is far more important to be very very good in the language of your code than to have a general grasp of concepts. Chances are your team will not be switching to a new language midstream, or trying to create a sorting routine faster than quicksort. Really, when is the last time you coded up new algorithms of a nontrivial nature? Often knowing the libraries is more important.

And, right there, you have an explanation of why most software teams fail, most commercial software products suck, and so many people keep buying junk development tools: software teams in industry don't have a clue what they are doing. They are just plugging together a bunch of library routines. They don't know whether to use quicksort or mergesort. They are mystified by what a garbage collector does and how to tune code to perform well. They have no clue what happens when they write "new object". TCP/IP might as well be ESP.

Thank you for demonstrating this point so clearly for us all. PS: Would you mind telling us where you work, as a warning?

Total BS...

[bubbha]

Problem is, no CS graduates do know this.

Absolute hogwash. I've been in this business for 20 years and interviewed developers for probably 100 openings. When I see no formal computer science education I put that resume on the bottom of the pile. Not all entry-level CS majors are ready to hit the ground running but at least you know that they have been exposed to a broad range of programming and software engineering topics. And in my experience, it's the physics and EE folks that I have had the most problems with.

I believe the biggest problem in our industry today is bad IS management. In my experience, IS managers without formal CS education are the reason that IS fails to meet business expectations. And I sense a lot of 'tude from the poster...probably does not have a CS degree and wants to get back at those who do.

Compiler writing

[Lucas Membrane]

Ever tried to write a compiler in FORTRAN, for example?

The old Citran, Joss, Cal, or whatever time-sharing interpreted language was written in Fortran. (About 5k lines of Fortran II, I think) It was much better than its competitors of the day, ie Basic and Xtran.

Then, for the real fans of serious programmer cajones, consider this: Realia wrote their COBOL compiler in Realia COBOL, which was a take-no-prisoners, unmitigated, unextended, minimum standard COBOL, ie 1974 version more or less.

What they advertise != what they use

[DunbarTheInept]

Typically the languages mentioned in the ad for a position are a superset of the languages you actually use in the job. There are several reasons I can think of for why this is done:

1. The employer thinks they MIGHT begin using some of those other languages in the future and wants someone who could transition if that happened.
2. The employer is thinking that the more languages the programer knows, the more likely it is that the programmer is competent in general, so listing many languages gets you better applicants (or so the employer thinks).
3. The employer is trying to woo applicants by putting the latest trendy language buzzwords into the job description regardless of what the job really entails.
4. ***Big one*** The employer is playing to the one-upmanship resume inflation game, asking for a lot of unreasonable things because the applicant will probably list a lot of unreasonable things as experience. Applicants eggagerate their qualifications and apply to jobs that they aren't really up to, so if you inflate the job requirements to compensate, you get applicants that are right at the level you wanted. But then the applicants exaggerate further, so the employees exaggerate further, and so on and so forth until eventually employers will be asking for N years of experience with language Foo, where N is about three times the typical human lifespan, and Foo is a language first implemented last year.

That last one bothers me a lot. It means you *have to* become part of the problem in order to get noticed. Being honest on your resume means not getting any calls. Employers assume you are exaggerating whether you are or not, so if you don't exaggerate they picture you being a lot less qualified than you are. At least that's the way it seemed the last time I was looking to change jobs, which admittedly was over six years ago so things may have changed.