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How Close is the Open Entertainment Center?
why-not-now asks: "Recently there's been a lot of talk about open source/free software that enables your PC to act as a DVR, all-purpose media player, DVD player, CD player, MP3 player, etc... not to mention the ability to play all sorts of video games (if you know where to look). The idea of the set top MAME console is nice, but with a little TV/Audio out, a little know how and the right software, are we currently able to put together a free version of the big convergence media center others are trying to do?"
see MythTV: http://www.mythtv.org/
"...all sorts of video games (if you know where to look).
That sounds cool. Where might I find information?
are we currently able to put together a free version of the big convergence media center others are trying to do?"
Sure we are. Here are the main differences between it and the other product:
Ours will have an incomprehensible command line interface and/or multiple GUIs that responds 10-15 seconds after the user asks it to do something. Neither GUI will be standard - in fact, it will ship with both, and proponents of the two camps will froth at the mouth when discussing how their widgets are prettier than the others.
It will not support any receivers / amps made less than 5 years ago unless the user knows assembly.
When a user asks for support, he will be told "RTFM n00b, j00 M$ shill. Astroturf somewheres else, whilst I read THE SOURCE for my knowledge. This is the Tao of programming, numbnuts, and you thought it was funny to beat me up in high school and take my lunch money. haahahah, I am the BOFH"
Maybe Im not part of the target demographic, but I have a nice widescreen, I have a Tivo, I have a CD player capable of mp3 playback, I have a 2/3 pulldown DVD player which gives me better quality than any PC ever will, and I have a Denon sound system.
About the only thing I can think I might be missing is the opportunity to play hacked/burned/whatever games, but in my experience, they usually look pretty damn lousy on a huge TV anyway.
Like I said.. maybe some people will be into this.. but IMHO I cannot stand to watch things on a computer NOW because they look so crappy, let alone piping that into my TV.
But maybe I'm not the audience they are looking for.
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
You can buy a Tivo
Buy a VCR
Buy a DVD player
Buy a Gaming Console or two
and then filter all of these through your receiver and/or high-er end video card, but notice that not once is the word 'free'mentioned.
And that is why Microsoft is aiming its marketing muscle in this general direction. I'minterested to see how well it does. I get to play with a Media Center box from HP here in the near future.
I'm interested to see how well the new toy from Bill works.
It hasn't been a software issue for months, but rather a hardware issue. It's quite easy to build a GUI via software, but quite another to build a nice, clean hardware interface. For example, I can go out, buy a component-sized/look atx case for $100-200, buy a motherboard, cpu, memory, nic, etc, then spend countless hours setting up the OSS tools used to make a PVR- but then I have spent ~$500 and I could have bought a Tivo for $150.
There's still items like the Audiotron and Compaq Music Centers for audio, and of course you can use a pc for these, but the fact remains that the effort required to build such a device is outmatched by the lower cost of one or more components. Why would I spend even as little as $200 plus 5-10 hours work when I can spend $250 with no-hours work?
Many of the solutions out there are still not very hardy and quite fragile. To reduce time in building these, there really should be a PVR/HTPC Distro.
To me, the idea of an open entertainment system that you describe doesn't seem to mesh.
Why does it matter that you're running on a free platform when you're playing non-free movies using illegal technology, pirated video game ROMs and MP3s?
In order for this to be real, we'd also need a collection of free movies and video games to add to the admittedly significant cache of free music. (There are also plenty of free video games, but since you are talking about MAME I don't think this is what you had in mind.) Otherwise, why does it matter if your media center uses pirated software, too?
Don't get me wrong -- I love the idea of disconnecting ourselves from the corporation-controlled content and software, but I don't think it helps us much if we develop a lot of free software in order to continue to consume the proprietary stuff.
On the other hand, I'm not saying that using pirated everything is all bad -- maybe a generation kids who grew up sharing things on Napster and clones will result in a less conservative congress, where things like the Copyright Term Extension Act won't be so common. (Which is what has me feeling so cynical right now...)
Sure the software for an OSS based media center is available and being put together by some groups. (e.g. MythTV, etal)... The real problem is putting together a good looking peice of hardware that will do the job.
For example: Where are the slim-line style cases similar in style to current VCRs and DVD players ? Where are the low-profile good quality video capture cards? or the motherboards with good video capture capability built in ?
And what about price. For the digital media center to really take off... it needs to be priced within the range of current DVD-players etc.
The ideal box would have a sleek case design, be very quiet, yet be powerfull enough to handle playing demanding media formats. Not to mention be able to burn captured shows off to cd... or for the very rich DVDs...
Softwares there... now we just need a company to put a hardware package together and get the price down below $1000 bucks..
The other night, I had rented the movie "We Were Soldiers" but the kids were sleeping so I figured why not just drop the DVD into my brand new Gateway, put the headphones on and watch it on my computer. No thoughts of copying anything or breaking any laws, but I could only watch the first 8 minutes due to the copy protection scheme.
A VCR I purchased a few years back when dead on me a month or so ago. When I opened it up to see what the problem was, I was confronted with cheap plastic gears -- apparently made to wear out over time. And so it goes.
So until there is more money in creating all-in-one computers that are home entertainment systems that are washing machines and toasters, we're going to continually get knickle-n-dimed to death -- or at least until I break down and buy a HD TV flat panel display.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
It's also being equiped with communication features such as e-mail checking, a phone answering machine, and even a who's-rang-the-door feature.
Check it all out at their website, davedina.apestaart.org, and join their mailinglist!
You can also come hang out at #davedina on Freenode
Who needs a set-top box that crashes or a computer that slows down because it's recording today's episode of Friends?
Well, we want one that won't crash. Or slow down. That's why we want a Linux set-top box. ;)
The tech exists to hack it together right now; it would be moderately expensive and rather ugly, but it could be done (Linux-supported TV-out + IR input port + LIRC + Linux BIOS or the Linux save-to-disk hack + xine/favorite decoder -- google for all these, I'm too lazy to link). And you can't say "Computers and TVs were not made to mix". The DVD player that might be sitting on your shelf is basically a simplified computer. If it can play MP3s, it is even more so. How about your Sega Dreamcast? We ported Linux to the thing, for God's sake! That can perform all the operations needed to call it a computer under Turing's definition...so you already have computers plugged into your TV, unless you're strictly an antenna-only guy.
Linux already works as an OS for many embedded systems. Your set-top box is merely another such system. I won't even get into the quagmire of a DRM argument, but let it be said for now that there are people who have gotten Linux PVRs working. It can be done now. With work, it can be done much more smoothly later.
There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
Yeah.. and what's up with people trying to play music on their computers? Who wants to waste valuable CPU cycles playing music when you can just turn on the stereo.
Seriously, though, a PC in the media room isn't such a bad idea. I have one set up, and it lets me do a lot of things:
- Use a cheaper RGB projector instead of an HDTV one.
- Use the DVD player in my PC instead of an expensive progressive scan external one.
- Flip between TV, a movie, a game, my email, and the web easily.
It's cool when you're watching a movie to be able to pause it, bring up a browser and look up what other movies the actor was in, that sort of thing.
Recording video on a PC is a big deal today perhaps (for some PCs anyway) but in a few years it won't be - just like playing MP3s was barely possible in real-time a few years ago but now you don't even notice.
A wireless keyboard and mouse makes a great remote control too.
- Steve
Sure, there are a few projects out there that are trying to do this kind of thing. And there are a lot of people who would be interested in this sort of solution, but with responses like:
what you are trying to say is "i want a free PVR-like thingie, can someone make one?"
...these projects will have a difficult time getting off the ground. I don't remember where I read it now, but someone once said...
The biggest problem with Linux is its supporters.
As the stereotype (which has been beautifully microcosmed in this discussion, BTW) is that they are a bunch of socially in adept zealots who have delusions of grandeur. The parent comment put this quite well in a language they would understand (though I'm sure it could have been conveyed in one line of Perl, yes).
So my question is (like) that of the original poster... when will someone with computer knowledge (that is not necessarily a *nix guru, though not a moron either) be able to follow some instructions on a site (buy this encoder board, install that DVD recorder) and setup a Digital Media Player that will cover the popular requests like MAME, DVD Video, MP3 (and OGG, and...), Slideshow (Image Display), etc?
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
I've got one PC with a 21" NEC Multisync monitor. No TV, no Tivo, no Playstation, no stereo. And I love it. I'd hate to have the setup you've got.
The only downside is the monitor isn't as large as I'd like. 21" is pretty much a minimum size. I'm hoping for a huge flat widescreen monitor in the future.
My PC doesn't have an AIW or any other TV capability, because I don't have cable - thanks to the wonders of the internet, and my friends who do have cable, I don't really need it. But DVDs played on my PC look far better than on my friends' TVs. The colors are more vivid and the image is sharper - what's not to like? And 200gigs of instant-access MP3s kicks all kinds of ass over an MP3-enabled CD player. Logitech and Klipsch make speakers that sound terrific to me.
Best of all - if I rent a DVD and don't get time to watch it (happens all the time to me), I can just copy it to my hard drive 'til later.
And everything's available through one interface, in one place, with a wireless mouse or remote. No piles of remotes, no jungles of wires, no components stacked all over the place.
As far as I'm concerned, this is how it should be... bring on more!
Hardware:
- Moderately fast CPU and MB, plenty of RAM
- ATI Radeon 7000 (Composite/SVideo out) going to video in on TV
- Audio out to reciever
- Wireless KBD and mouse
- SNES Joypads wired to parallel port
Software:- MPlayer for DVD
- Snes9x for games
- Two X configs: One for TV, one for Monitor.
Not as user friendly as I would have hoped for the wife and kids, they still have the tendency to use an actual DVD and SNES console for games instead of the copies on the computer, but I think the experiment for me was at least successful. My current plan is to make it user friendly enough that I can put the DVD and SNES in my daughters room.-- 4 8 15 16 23 42
The new shuttle mini boxes.. roughly the size of a barbie microwave oven.. with the new nforce 2 chipset allows you get get a very powerful dolby digital 6 speaker compliant sound system. (About 600$ with everything included already)
... 1 for a sb audigy ... 2 for a dope ass video card with video out ... 3 for the tv tuner ... IR sensors are located on the mobo and you just need to buy the front panel extensions for those...
.. mp3 collection)- 100$
connect to that a usb TV tuner that supports Video Out also (for about 200$ from hauppage) and you have a little box that plays dvds on the tv along with surround sound
you have 200$ left over to buy an IR kit that you can plug into your computer's mobo and stick the receiver on the front panel and program your remote control. ( I know there's been lotsa projects on the web for remote controled computers and it's not that hard) simply program the remote's buttons with a specific command per button.. ie... button 1 will call winamp.. button 2 will call the tv tuner.. so on so forth. so for about 1000$ you can easily have a hobby to try and set something like this all up
btw speaker systems are not included in this equation... cuz good ones can throw yer costs another 300$.
if you don't like the oven.. you can buy a small form factor desktop case... it's roughly the size of your everyday Amplifier case. To make sure you can get a small one.. buy one of those ECS motherboards... only 3 pci slots (some have only 2)
here's a rack up of total costs
Case with power supply (Enlight is a good compnay)- 50$
Mobo (ECS brand)- 50$
CPU (p4's 1.8 ghz are cooler runnign and quieter)- 120$
SB audigy 1/2 platinum ex (comse you a remote that you can hack at and already has IR plus has all that digital audio out/in, line in/out, optical in/out for all your sound needs)- 160$
Geforce 4 ti4200 w/ video out- 150$
Hauppage winTV HDTV PCI- 230$
hard disk (80 gigs depending the size of your por
Klipsch pro media 5.1 speakers- 300$
USB gamepads x2- $40
DVD driver w/software- 50$
windows 2k- 80$
winamp- Free
Aol im- Free
Divx encoder/decoder- free
Watching pr0n on the big screen tv - Pricesless
Total Cost of Project: ~1400$
and it's very possible... I'm half way there already... all I need now is that HDTV tv tuner... and a big HDTV 60" plasma display.
I have been considering buying an X-Box just so I can use it as a media server.
I have heard people putting in large hard drives into their X-Box to do this sort of thing and to store all their X-Box games on it. No more carrying around the original games. Supposedly the X-Box binary newsgroup is #4 in terms of number of message headers. I heard its also possible to simply rent games then rip them to an X-Box hard drive.
Most of this is illegal though so I am not advocating it. I can see why Microsoft is upset about Mod chips. BTW, I don't do this because:
1) I don't own an X-Box.
2) Even if I did I wouldn't play game on it because I prefer PC games.
However, I really like the idea of using it as a media server for my LEGALLY owned mp3's, DivX's (home movies), family photos (slideshows), and DVD's.
There is a great forum over at www.avscience.com the specific forum link is:
? s= f7c95c994ee82c919bd2336b4ad8bc8b&forumid=26
? s= f7c95c994ee82c919bd2336b4ad8bc8b&forumid=76
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php
That forum is related to all things PC/Media related.
They also have a specific Linux users forum at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php
The other forums at avscience are great resources too, so dont hesitate to check them out, but these two forums should fit this particular topic.
"It will never get there. Computers are for one thing, TVs for another. The twos can mix, sure, but they're better off both staying separate."
I would contest this comment. I have a TV with a VGA in on it and before I moved I had a computer hooked up to it as a capture box. Not only would it capture TV shows, but stuff I got from other places (DVD rips or shows traded on P2P) could be played on it. I know from experience what this is like and would like to clarify some of the negative comments you made.
"Who needs a set-top box that crashes..."
I ran Win2k on this box. It had an uptime of around 2-3 months before needing a reboot. My VCR can't even go that long without ending up losing it's time and flashing 12:00. With Linux, it'd likely be even better. I'm not entirely sure about that though, I'm fairly certain that Windows wasn't the problem. I'm pretty sure it was a driver issue.
"...or a computer that slows down because it's recording today's episode of Friends?"
That's a semi valid point. If I watched something while the machine was recording, it'd do niether well. The capture would get lagged and the playback would be choppy. Though this was a 400mhz machine, it wouldn't have mattered how fast the machine was. A dual processor solution would have been neceassary. I doubt that a dual processor 500mhz machine would be very expensive today. If the recorder was prioirtized on the second processor and everything else done on the first, it'd be quite fine. On a single processor machine, it's still not that big of deal. If I wanted to watch a show while the machine was recording, I'd just hit it from the network and play the show it had already captured. It didn't cause a noticable drain on the recording. The streams were only 400kbits or so. I can honestly say I've never been bitten in the ass by what you described.
I never played games on this machine (though I know for a fact it'd do just fine with them, it used to be on my desk...) but I did do infrequent websurfing and email checking with it. Despite the low-res NTSC screen, it still more or less worked.
The plus side of this setup was I had a media server to store everything on. Whenver I went out of town I'd just dump a few shows I was interested in watching to my laptop, then I'd have some stuff to watch. Also, while I'm browsing, sometimes I watch a show in a small window. (That's how I kept up on That 70's Show, heh) Being able to click back a few seconds because I didn't catch what got the audience laughing was worthwhile.
Watching videos this way got addictive. Sometimes during commercials I get bored and go check my email or something. Unfortunately, when my attention gets grabbed I tend to miss the rest of the show. That sucks when you're watching something like 24.
All in all, it was a damn nice experience. The biggest problem with my system was the lack of a remote. Oh well. Eventually I'll get it set back up again.
"Derp de derp."
"OK, buddy, I made love to your wife. Now did you use that time I freed up to code up my frickin' MAME/DVD/DiVX set-top box or not?"
Over the past few months I've been looking into this. I really want a PVR, but can't buy one off-the-shelf (no service available in .nl).
One of the things I noticed is that it doesn't seem possible to put more than one capture card into a PC. At least I've seen reports that say Windows can only handle on capture card. If this is true, it would be a shame. I currently have two VCRs. If I buy a PVR, I'd like to improve on current functionality and be able to record two programs while watching (with PVR functions like 'pause live TV' available) a third.
Now, I haven't been able to absolutely confirm this. Does anyone here know, and is the situation different when you use Linux?
And how adaptable are current open-PVR efforts? Is it possible for a non-programmer (at least, nothing beyond a few simple Applescripts) to e.g. get the software to recognize guide data from a different website than originally intended? Most software PVRs seem linked pretty much to a single guide data provider.
MoviX is a linux distro designed for just that. It's new, young, and needs developers. (Roberto is great though) Many of the PVR apps build on an existing distro, this one is entirely to BE a PVR. Also, it boots from CD, so the hard drive is free to use for storage, etc. http://movix.sf.net -Shawn
...Life is like a bad analogy
Check out Telly.
It's a Linux based box with photos, pvr, music, etc. with TV out and IR. If they can ever bring this to market, it'll run $699.
I was going to build my own, but would end up spending more cash and building a sub-par hack UI. I need something that the wife can work so I can toss my 13 yr. old VCR before it dies.