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How Close is the Open Entertainment Center?
why-not-now asks: "Recently there's been a lot of talk about open source/free software that enables your PC to act as a DVR, all-purpose media player, DVD player, CD player, MP3 player, etc... not to mention the ability to play all sorts of video games (if you know where to look). The idea of the set top MAME console is nice, but with a little TV/Audio out, a little know how and the right software, are we currently able to put together a free version of the big convergence media center others are trying to do?"
It won't be getting closer anytime soon.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
see MythTV: http://www.mythtv.org/
Damn tower keeps falling off when I crank up the bass!
"...all sorts of video games (if you know where to look).
That sounds cool. Where might I find information?
are we currently able to put together a free version of the big convergence media center others are trying to do?"
Sure we are. Here are the main differences between it and the other product:
Ours will have an incomprehensible command line interface and/or multiple GUIs that responds 10-15 seconds after the user asks it to do something. Neither GUI will be standard - in fact, it will ship with both, and proponents of the two camps will froth at the mouth when discussing how their widgets are prettier than the others.
It will not support any receivers / amps made less than 5 years ago unless the user knows assembly.
When a user asks for support, he will be told "RTFM n00b, j00 M$ shill. Astroturf somewheres else, whilst I read THE SOURCE for my knowledge. This is the Tao of programming, numbnuts, and you thought it was funny to beat me up in high school and take my lunch money. haahahah, I am the BOFH"
You do realize that the first 3 links arent 'open'.
Just because you can emulate arcade roms, snes roms and psx discs, doesn't mean it's legal to do so, or that they're somehow 'open'. Spyro the dragon and Mortal Kombat are not Open Source.
And to answer your question, you can do all that now. All you need is a machine with enough power and TV outs, or a VGA scan converter, and a lot of free time to set it all up and make it work adequately.
Or are you asking 'how long until someone sets up an easy to use linux interface for all of these softwares?' You can answer that by looking at how long it took to set up an easy to use linux interface at all.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
If you don't mind that it will be a collection of parts that don't particularly work well together, won't have a slick interface, and won't fit in with the rest of your AV gear, style-wise. Nothing amuses me more than reading about people spending a gob of money (and time) to turn their PC into a half-assed Tivo, when they could've just bought a fucking Tivo for less money, get something that is slick, and been happier in every way. Of course, I also think that Tivo is fucking stupid. Mostly because I see no point in recording, or watching at all, the shit that is on TV.
Maybe Im not part of the target demographic, but I have a nice widescreen, I have a Tivo, I have a CD player capable of mp3 playback, I have a 2/3 pulldown DVD player which gives me better quality than any PC ever will, and I have a Denon sound system.
About the only thing I can think I might be missing is the opportunity to play hacked/burned/whatever games, but in my experience, they usually look pretty damn lousy on a huge TV anyway.
Like I said.. maybe some people will be into this.. but IMHO I cannot stand to watch things on a computer NOW because they look so crappy, let alone piping that into my TV.
But maybe I'm not the audience they are looking for.
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
And emulation capability out the wazoo too.
Now if what you're asking for is a PC that acts like a Mac; just wait 5-10 years and they ought to be up to the standards of today's PowerBook. ;-P
You can buy a Tivo
Buy a VCR
Buy a DVD player
Buy a Gaming Console or two
and then filter all of these through your receiver and/or high-er end video card, but notice that not once is the word 'free'mentioned.
And that is why Microsoft is aiming its marketing muscle in this general direction. I'minterested to see how well it does. I get to play with a Media Center box from HP here in the near future.
I'm interested to see how well the new toy from Bill works.
- Gentlemen, start your hybrids!
It hasn't been a software issue for months, but rather a hardware issue. It's quite easy to build a GUI via software, but quite another to build a nice, clean hardware interface. For example, I can go out, buy a component-sized/look atx case for $100-200, buy a motherboard, cpu, memory, nic, etc, then spend countless hours setting up the OSS tools used to make a PVR- but then I have spent ~$500 and I could have bought a Tivo for $150.
There's still items like the Audiotron and Compaq Music Centers for audio, and of course you can use a pc for these, but the fact remains that the effort required to build such a device is outmatched by the lower cost of one or more components. Why would I spend even as little as $200 plus 5-10 hours work when I can spend $250 with no-hours work?
Many of the solutions out there are still not very hardy and quite fragile. To reduce time in building these, there really should be a PVR/HTPC Distro.
To me, the idea of an open entertainment system that you describe doesn't seem to mesh.
Why does it matter that you're running on a free platform when you're playing non-free movies using illegal technology, pirated video game ROMs and MP3s?
In order for this to be real, we'd also need a collection of free movies and video games to add to the admittedly significant cache of free music. (There are also plenty of free video games, but since you are talking about MAME I don't think this is what you had in mind.) Otherwise, why does it matter if your media center uses pirated software, too?
Don't get me wrong -- I love the idea of disconnecting ourselves from the corporation-controlled content and software, but I don't think it helps us much if we develop a lot of free software in order to continue to consume the proprietary stuff.
On the other hand, I'm not saying that using pirated everything is all bad -- maybe a generation kids who grew up sharing things on Napster and clones will result in a less conservative congress, where things like the Copyright Term Extension Act won't be so common. (Which is what has me feeling so cynical right now...)
... to spending dozens of hours and thousands of dollars combining Open Source DVD players, CD players, and MP3 players are the following:
1) Print a few more copies of your resume out and send them to companies. You've been out of work long enough and any minute the bill collectors are going to throw you and your family in jail.
2) Plant a tree. Picket outside fur factories and SUV dealerships. Teach a neighborhood child how to play the piano. Read to your kid. Make love to your wife.
3) Abandon all the worrying about conforming your life to the absurd paradigns and social revolutions inspired by lunatics like Richard M. Stallman, who was pink-slipped by the MIT Media Lab after years of little to no productive work.
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
You can have the all open source entertainment center if you're willing to always be at least 2 or 3 years behind what is current. Users who want to view the latest video disk format will have to go to best buy to get the needed player to do so. It takes the hacker community a little while to duplicate a comercial product.
The entertainment industry will almost by deffinition be ahead of the open source entertainment subculture.
Honestly, would you rather play some mame roms rather than the Clone Wars on a brand new GameCube? The open source hardware is just not there and the software will always be lagging.
this isn't a troll. I honestly think that the commercial stuff will eternaly have the advantage of easy configuration, compatibility with current media and ease of use.
Blaze a trail to the New World
Sure the software for an OSS based media center is available and being put together by some groups. (e.g. MythTV, etal)... The real problem is putting together a good looking peice of hardware that will do the job.
For example: Where are the slim-line style cases similar in style to current VCRs and DVD players ? Where are the low-profile good quality video capture cards? or the motherboards with good video capture capability built in ?
And what about price. For the digital media center to really take off... it needs to be priced within the range of current DVD-players etc.
The ideal box would have a sleek case design, be very quiet, yet be powerfull enough to handle playing demanding media formats. Not to mention be able to burn captured shows off to cd... or for the very rich DVDs...
Softwares there... now we just need a company to put a hardware package together and get the price down below $1000 bucks..
The other night, I had rented the movie "We Were Soldiers" but the kids were sleeping so I figured why not just drop the DVD into my brand new Gateway, put the headphones on and watch it on my computer. No thoughts of copying anything or breaking any laws, but I could only watch the first 8 minutes due to the copy protection scheme.
A VCR I purchased a few years back when dead on me a month or so ago. When I opened it up to see what the problem was, I was confronted with cheap plastic gears -- apparently made to wear out over time. And so it goes.
So until there is more money in creating all-in-one computers that are home entertainment systems that are washing machines and toasters, we're going to continually get knickle-n-dimed to death -- or at least until I break down and buy a HD TV flat panel display.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
My computer is the only source of media I use anymore. I use it to listen to music, play dvds, watch tv, radio, games, etc. Luckily, my computer is a P4 so it can handle all the extra data. However, my other computer can do almost all of it and it is only a P2 400mhz.
My question is, according to the article we want an open source program that does it all. I have several programs that do this but are from microsoft (WMP etc) and not a one can do all that I want. This leads to a fundamental question about computer design: we don't want to know how to do it we just want it done. Like a telephone, we want the computer to do what it is supposed to do without any question. To use a telephone, you pick it up and dial, but we have become so used to it that we don't even realize that this piece of technology hasn't been around for centurys.
The goal of creating an open source all in one PVR program is to make computers less like a computer and more like a tool that everyone knows how to use. I love open source, but I don't mind not knowing how it works if it works. We pay for phones, so why shouldn't we pay for software that provides an entertainment package for us.
It's also being equiped with communication features such as e-mail checking, a phone answering machine, and even a who's-rang-the-door feature.
Check it all out at their website, davedina.apestaart.org, and join their mailinglist!
You can also come hang out at #davedina on Freenode
All credit really should go to Issac and the other guys contributing to this project.
Recent CVS additions include a mythweather module and support for running decoding and encoding on different machines on the network (for a truly connected home ;p)
Unless you have free open-source software that can play the latest windows media player formats then your set up box WILL NOT have the same capabilities of the latest boxes being sold. Unfortunately such software would probably be in violation of the dmca... sorry.
Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!
Who needs a set-top box that crashes or a computer that slows down because it's recording today's episode of Friends?
Well, we want one that won't crash. Or slow down. That's why we want a Linux set-top box. ;)
The tech exists to hack it together right now; it would be moderately expensive and rather ugly, but it could be done (Linux-supported TV-out + IR input port + LIRC + Linux BIOS or the Linux save-to-disk hack + xine/favorite decoder -- google for all these, I'm too lazy to link). And you can't say "Computers and TVs were not made to mix". The DVD player that might be sitting on your shelf is basically a simplified computer. If it can play MP3s, it is even more so. How about your Sega Dreamcast? We ported Linux to the thing, for God's sake! That can perform all the operations needed to call it a computer under Turing's definition...so you already have computers plugged into your TV, unless you're strictly an antenna-only guy.
Linux already works as an OS for many embedded systems. Your set-top box is merely another such system. I won't even get into the quagmire of a DRM argument, but let it be said for now that there are people who have gotten Linux PVRs working. It can be done now. With work, it can be done much more smoothly later.
There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
Yeah.. and what's up with people trying to play music on their computers? Who wants to waste valuable CPU cycles playing music when you can just turn on the stereo.
Seriously, though, a PC in the media room isn't such a bad idea. I have one set up, and it lets me do a lot of things:
- Use a cheaper RGB projector instead of an HDTV one.
- Use the DVD player in my PC instead of an expensive progressive scan external one.
- Flip between TV, a movie, a game, my email, and the web easily.
It's cool when you're watching a movie to be able to pause it, bring up a browser and look up what other movies the actor was in, that sort of thing.
Recording video on a PC is a big deal today perhaps (for some PCs anyway) but in a few years it won't be - just like playing MP3s was barely possible in real-time a few years ago but now you don't even notice.
A wireless keyboard and mouse makes a great remote control too.
- Steve
"are we currently able to put together a free version of the big convergence media center others are trying to do?"
Not as long as you don't care about usability. Right now it's all about how smart we are because we figured out how to use Linux and how we need to get the best and the brightest and filter out the rest by having every potential open source user go through the same ordeal.
Sure, there are a few projects out there that are trying to do this kind of thing. And there are a lot of people who would be interested in this sort of solution, but with responses like:
what you are trying to say is "i want a free PVR-like thingie, can someone make one?"
...these projects will have a difficult time getting off the ground. I don't remember where I read it now, but someone once said...
The biggest problem with Linux is its supporters.
As the stereotype (which has been beautifully microcosmed in this discussion, BTW) is that they are a bunch of socially in adept zealots who have delusions of grandeur. The parent comment put this quite well in a language they would understand (though I'm sure it could have been conveyed in one line of Perl, yes).
So my question is (like) that of the original poster... when will someone with computer knowledge (that is not necessarily a *nix guru, though not a moron either) be able to follow some instructions on a site (buy this encoder board, install that DVD recorder) and setup a Digital Media Player that will cover the popular requests like MAME, DVD Video, MP3 (and OGG, and...), Slideshow (Image Display), etc?
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
I've got one PC with a 21" NEC Multisync monitor. No TV, no Tivo, no Playstation, no stereo. And I love it. I'd hate to have the setup you've got.
The only downside is the monitor isn't as large as I'd like. 21" is pretty much a minimum size. I'm hoping for a huge flat widescreen monitor in the future.
My PC doesn't have an AIW or any other TV capability, because I don't have cable - thanks to the wonders of the internet, and my friends who do have cable, I don't really need it. But DVDs played on my PC look far better than on my friends' TVs. The colors are more vivid and the image is sharper - what's not to like? And 200gigs of instant-access MP3s kicks all kinds of ass over an MP3-enabled CD player. Logitech and Klipsch make speakers that sound terrific to me.
Best of all - if I rent a DVD and don't get time to watch it (happens all the time to me), I can just copy it to my hard drive 'til later.
And everything's available through one interface, in one place, with a wireless mouse or remote. No piles of remotes, no jungles of wires, no components stacked all over the place.
As far as I'm concerned, this is how it should be... bring on more!
Hardware:
- Moderately fast CPU and MB, plenty of RAM
- ATI Radeon 7000 (Composite/SVideo out) going to video in on TV
- Audio out to reciever
- Wireless KBD and mouse
- SNES Joypads wired to parallel port
Software:- MPlayer for DVD
- Snes9x for games
- Two X configs: One for TV, one for Monitor.
Not as user friendly as I would have hoped for the wife and kids, they still have the tendency to use an actual DVD and SNES console for games instead of the copies on the computer, but I think the experiment for me was at least successful. My current plan is to make it user friendly enough that I can put the DVD and SNES in my daughters room.-- 4 8 15 16 23 42
While it is true we are seeing convergence between the traditional TV and computer, and while this does portend an opportunity for open source in that regard, the net effect is a converged home, not just entertainment centers.
The new combo TV/computer will be part of the entire home system...one that includes the air conditioner (Now, in Korea, I can control my AC over the net), and the refrigerator...baby monitors...home security...etc.
Think open source home...
We're close, but not in the next two years.
Here's the key quote for those who don't want to register:
"Matsushita and Sony have agreed to jointly develop the Linux operating system for digital consumer electronic products, in a highly unusual and cooperative deal between two of the fiercest rivals in the industry... Sony and Matsushita will continue to use the existing operating systems for specific products - such as Windows for Vaio - but expect the newly developed version of Linux to be increasingly used in home electronic devices, such as portable and home AV products."
The reason this trend will go places is quite simple: The much-bandied-about "Microsoft Tax" is real, and the major CE manufacturers don't want to pay it. This combined with the strong likelihood (--> certainty) that MS will attempt to commoditized them ensures that they will fight back. These guys are not only smart, they are bigger than Microsoft (Sony: $60bn revenues) and they are determined to not get cut out of the market, or turned into Compaq/HP style failures. Who benefits? The Linux community is going to get a huge boost, because the single best weapon these firms have against MS is Linux, and they are going to use it with a vengeance.
- Use the DVD player in my PC instead of an expensive progressive scan external one
I would be interested to know how the quality of picture stands up between the two. I have a Toshiba Widescreen (57" projection) and a Sanyo 2/3 pulldown connected through component Monster Cables (which Im sure I paid way too much for) and digital audio. The movie sucks plotwise, but "Driven" with Sly and Burt Reynolds looks *DAMN* nice on it. Pearl Harbor looks extremely good too.. better than the theater I saw it in.
How good, realisticly, does that internal DVD player look on a decent TV?
Maeryk
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?
The new shuttle mini boxes.. roughly the size of a barbie microwave oven.. with the new nforce 2 chipset allows you get get a very powerful dolby digital 6 speaker compliant sound system. (About 600$ with everything included already)
... 1 for a sb audigy ... 2 for a dope ass video card with video out ... 3 for the tv tuner ... IR sensors are located on the mobo and you just need to buy the front panel extensions for those...
.. mp3 collection)- 100$
connect to that a usb TV tuner that supports Video Out also (for about 200$ from hauppage) and you have a little box that plays dvds on the tv along with surround sound
you have 200$ left over to buy an IR kit that you can plug into your computer's mobo and stick the receiver on the front panel and program your remote control. ( I know there's been lotsa projects on the web for remote controled computers and it's not that hard) simply program the remote's buttons with a specific command per button.. ie... button 1 will call winamp.. button 2 will call the tv tuner.. so on so forth. so for about 1000$ you can easily have a hobby to try and set something like this all up
btw speaker systems are not included in this equation... cuz good ones can throw yer costs another 300$.
if you don't like the oven.. you can buy a small form factor desktop case... it's roughly the size of your everyday Amplifier case. To make sure you can get a small one.. buy one of those ECS motherboards... only 3 pci slots (some have only 2)
here's a rack up of total costs
Case with power supply (Enlight is a good compnay)- 50$
Mobo (ECS brand)- 50$
CPU (p4's 1.8 ghz are cooler runnign and quieter)- 120$
SB audigy 1/2 platinum ex (comse you a remote that you can hack at and already has IR plus has all that digital audio out/in, line in/out, optical in/out for all your sound needs)- 160$
Geforce 4 ti4200 w/ video out- 150$
Hauppage winTV HDTV PCI- 230$
hard disk (80 gigs depending the size of your por
Klipsch pro media 5.1 speakers- 300$
USB gamepads x2- $40
DVD driver w/software- 50$
windows 2k- 80$
winamp- Free
Aol im- Free
Divx encoder/decoder- free
Watching pr0n on the big screen tv - Pricesless
Total Cost of Project: ~1400$
and it's very possible... I'm half way there already... all I need now is that HDTV tv tuner... and a big HDTV 60" plasma display.
Yes, I think we are able to do something like this. The question is whether this will ever be a big hit outside the geek scene.
Free Software/Open Source is one thing: You program once, have fun, and then release the compiled files together with the source. Of which the latter will be gladly ignored by the masses. But that's OK. They use the compiled version and are happy. And you are happy that your program is being used. That you also share the compiled version doesn't add extra cost for you because it's digital stuff that can be copied effortlessly.
But with hardware it's a different game, IMO. Even if you offer the schematics for such a multimedia all-purpose entertainment thing, someone still has to compile... ehh build it. This time it's physical so easy copying is not possible (unless you have access to a replicator somewhere). So, who is going to do this? People won't be willing to assemble stuff for themselves. Heck, even *I* used to do more myself when I was younger (and had more time and enthusiasm). Nowadays I buy quite a lot...
But maybe it's the chance for some garage company to just build the stuff based on open sourced layouts? Hmmm... Not sure that this will work either. What about distribution channels? One reason why Free Software/OSS has been so successful is that almost everybody has access to the Internet somehow and if a person knows the right address, he/she can download all that is needed. So, the distribution is more or less just a matter of getting people to know where to look. Physical things however have to be shipped, to be physically delivered by any means. And people will want to have a look at them in some kind of shop before they are going to buy them. (The gateway business model)
So the bottomline of my reasoning is, that I am quite sceptical whether it will be a big success. But it could be a reasonable (moral) succes within the geek community, so why not try? Just don't expect to see the equivalent of RedHat or SuSE anytime soon.
Excellence: Moderate (mostly affected by comments on your karma)
I have been considering the XBOX for just such a thing. You can get one for around $150 US. XboxMediaPlayer The XboxMediaPlayer for the Xbox allows you to use a modded Xbox to play DivX, XVID, (S)VCD (MPEG-1/2), MP3 & other supported video/audio formats via your TV so it can used as a multimedia jukebox. It also supports network streaming via XStream. Plus a simple clean looking interface navigatible via remote control. Plus there are XBox a MAME, NES, PSX, Atari 2600, c64 emulators ...
There are a few projects coming to fruition.
One converts exe's to run on the XBOX. And another is a non MS compiler. So
soon we will have all these apps available with out having to have a $25 mod
chip for the XBox.
I'm going to get two of these. One to replace my dead DVD player with the
media player.
The other for the ultimate MAME / emu. arcade machine I'm going to build.
Perfect solution for this application. CHEAP, TV out, good graphics and
networkable. Plus you can play XBOX games on it too!
I have been considering buying an X-Box just so I can use it as a media server.
I have heard people putting in large hard drives into their X-Box to do this sort of thing and to store all their X-Box games on it. No more carrying around the original games. Supposedly the X-Box binary newsgroup is #4 in terms of number of message headers. I heard its also possible to simply rent games then rip them to an X-Box hard drive.
Most of this is illegal though so I am not advocating it. I can see why Microsoft is upset about Mod chips. BTW, I don't do this because:
1) I don't own an X-Box.
2) Even if I did I wouldn't play game on it because I prefer PC games.
However, I really like the idea of using it as a media server for my LEGALLY owned mp3's, DivX's (home movies), family photos (slideshows), and DVD's.
Using your PC as a progressive scan DVD player because it's cheaper these days isn't necessarily true. Their are some good quality DVD players that output progressive signals that are sub-$100. I personally own a CyberHome DVD-500 and have been quite happy with it. Yes it's a BestBuy generic DVD player, but it has progressive scan and a DD/DTS decoder built in for $69.
Calculators are for one thing, typewriters for another. The twos can mix, sure, but they're better off both staying separate...
Signed,
Some Luddite A Generation Ago
At least the more computer savvy and DIYers are. There are several packages out the to turn your pc into a PVR, such as:
Freevo
and
MythTV
The problem with these packages at this point are twofold.
First, they aren't exactly easy to set up. Most people will need to recompile their kernels for bttv support, and not every Linux user out there knows how to safely rebuild a kernel. Then, at least with freevo, there is the matter of getting your dependencies set. This can be difficult for some, especially Redhat 7.3 users, as many of the packages that freevo relies on claim Redhat's versions of gcc or some obscure perl module are b0rked.
Also, they are missing some of the features that some commercial PVR's boast, such as HDTV (the tuner cards cost about as much as a PVR) and making suggestions for shows you might like.
Personally, I'd like to see a PVR distro.. perhaps a even Live CD. That would help solve the difficulty of setup, but as far as lack of features go, given time, I suspect any one of these projects can superceed commercial PVR's, at least among the slashdot type crowd.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
I've just started putting together the hardware yesterday. It's very do-able, and there are a few people that are actually doing a great job at setting up nice GUIs. (MythTv). I plan on basing it off of Linux, but if I can't find the neccessary parts/drivers/software, I'll end up using Windoze 98. I'm actually building the thing in a customized case that will go pretty well with my entertainment system, and I'll have it networked with my other computers for head-head action... It's not just a glorified Tivo. It's another computer on my network, who's primary function will be to replace my DVD player, VCR, CD Player, while adding a MP3 player & another spot for gaming.
/.
It's very possible & many people are doing it.
(Media.Box, ebox, FreeplayTV, etc...)
Just a side note... This is not a replacement for Tivo or any other recorder.
It's alot more expensive & a lot harder...
This is a project for people like those that read
-MasMan
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstein
Oh! And this one time, at band camp...
Frankly, I don't see "convergence" happening in the living rooms of most Americans. How convenient would it really be for most? Not very. A single system unit might be of interest to a person who lives alone, but of what use is it for a normal family. Oh, it would be useful for generating screaming matches between Billy and Janey, because he wants to watch Gunsmoke (dates me, doesn't it ) and she wants to play Nintendo. There's only one screen, so convergence in this case (which would be VERY common) yields a benefit of ZERO.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
HDTV tuner
PVR
Progressive-scan DVD player
Music Server
I'm still a ways away from purchasing an HDTV-capable TV, and am taking the time to educate myself along the way. An affordable (less than $1k) home-built entertainment appliance like I've described that doesn't require a keyboard for light operation is probably a ways away.
---- Politics: Kissing ass and pointing blames.
Keep in mind that not everyone has access to what I think is the key attraction for a HTPC - Tivo. I live in Canada, and there are no PVRs available - except for Bell ExpressVu, which offers one as part of one of its digital satellite recievers, but not standalone for those of us that don't want their service. The only option available to me is an HTPC. The problem is that there are no good TV Tuners available for a reasonable price (Hauppagge makes one that looks great, but it's $250 US). So I'm desperately looking for a good solution.
My other sig is funny!
Then this is not for you. The reason people build systems like this is not economical, it's because they can. Why else would we have projects like mythtv.org, or freevo.sourceforge.net. Other projects have a similar folowing, like text mode quake (http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake/), or my favorite recent project, Bar Monkey (http://www3.hmc.edu/~bgreer/barmonkey/). Again, if you have to ask, this product isn't for you.
Something i've been watching for awhile now. It has just about everything all there. http://staff.washington.edu/jmgasper/
There is a great forum over at www.avscience.com the specific forum link is:
? s= f7c95c994ee82c919bd2336b4ad8bc8b&forumid=26
? s= f7c95c994ee82c919bd2336b4ad8bc8b&forumid=76
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php
That forum is related to all things PC/Media related.
They also have a specific Linux users forum at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php
The other forums at avscience are great resources too, so dont hesitate to check them out, but these two forums should fit this particular topic.
"It will never get there. Computers are for one thing, TVs for another. The twos can mix, sure, but they're better off both staying separate."
I would contest this comment. I have a TV with a VGA in on it and before I moved I had a computer hooked up to it as a capture box. Not only would it capture TV shows, but stuff I got from other places (DVD rips or shows traded on P2P) could be played on it. I know from experience what this is like and would like to clarify some of the negative comments you made.
"Who needs a set-top box that crashes..."
I ran Win2k on this box. It had an uptime of around 2-3 months before needing a reboot. My VCR can't even go that long without ending up losing it's time and flashing 12:00. With Linux, it'd likely be even better. I'm not entirely sure about that though, I'm fairly certain that Windows wasn't the problem. I'm pretty sure it was a driver issue.
"...or a computer that slows down because it's recording today's episode of Friends?"
That's a semi valid point. If I watched something while the machine was recording, it'd do niether well. The capture would get lagged and the playback would be choppy. Though this was a 400mhz machine, it wouldn't have mattered how fast the machine was. A dual processor solution would have been neceassary. I doubt that a dual processor 500mhz machine would be very expensive today. If the recorder was prioirtized on the second processor and everything else done on the first, it'd be quite fine. On a single processor machine, it's still not that big of deal. If I wanted to watch a show while the machine was recording, I'd just hit it from the network and play the show it had already captured. It didn't cause a noticable drain on the recording. The streams were only 400kbits or so. I can honestly say I've never been bitten in the ass by what you described.
I never played games on this machine (though I know for a fact it'd do just fine with them, it used to be on my desk...) but I did do infrequent websurfing and email checking with it. Despite the low-res NTSC screen, it still more or less worked.
The plus side of this setup was I had a media server to store everything on. Whenver I went out of town I'd just dump a few shows I was interested in watching to my laptop, then I'd have some stuff to watch. Also, while I'm browsing, sometimes I watch a show in a small window. (That's how I kept up on That 70's Show, heh) Being able to click back a few seconds because I didn't catch what got the audience laughing was worthwhile.
Watching videos this way got addictive. Sometimes during commercials I get bored and go check my email or something. Unfortunately, when my attention gets grabbed I tend to miss the rest of the show. That sucks when you're watching something like 24.
All in all, it was a damn nice experience. The biggest problem with my system was the lack of a remote. Oh well. Eventually I'll get it set back up again.
"Derp de derp."
I like what you're saying, but please learn to use HTML properly.
And to all you who piss and moan about the Xbox hackers: it's not because we're ripping off MS, it's not because it makes a cheap PC, it's because we CAN, and we feel really good about an Xbox that runs stuff it's not supposed to when it's all said and done.
Oh, and when Xboxes are $50 at the pawn shop, you'll thank the geeks that are writing the docs and writing the code that you'll be looking for then.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Convergence, IMHO, is for the guy with a lot of extra money, a lot of extra time, and a burning desire to read his e-mail on that 54-inch flat-screen plasma monitor in his living room.
I don't trust anyone who wants to turn a PC into a "media center." The convergence devices that Microsoft and others envision are designed for PASSIVE entertainment. Don't stand up and say anything, just sit there on the couch and watch. An internet-connected PC is designed for ACTIVE entertainment. It encourages you to participate, to communicate, to share your knowledge and ideas and creations with the world. Linux was not created by some schmo on the sofa with a clicker in his hand.
This is not to say that passive entertainment is a bad thing, mind you. What I'm saying is that a general-purpose computer is not the right tool for this job. Ultimately, we're better off having a PC for one set of tasks and a TiVo, DVD Player and PS2 for another. If people really wanted full-fledged PCs in their living rooms, the guys who created WebTV would be billionaires right now.
Visit me on the web at Permanent4.com.
It will look great, and come in an attractive package. When it doesn't work, you can view a comprehensive 'help' screen, which will mainly tell you how advanced their technology is. It won't work at all with any games more than a year old, and will be two slow for any games coming out next year.
Over the past few months I've been looking into this. I really want a PVR, but can't buy one off-the-shelf (no service available in .nl).
One of the things I noticed is that it doesn't seem possible to put more than one capture card into a PC. At least I've seen reports that say Windows can only handle on capture card. If this is true, it would be a shame. I currently have two VCRs. If I buy a PVR, I'd like to improve on current functionality and be able to record two programs while watching (with PVR functions like 'pause live TV' available) a third.
Now, I haven't been able to absolutely confirm this. Does anyone here know, and is the situation different when you use Linux?
And how adaptable are current open-PVR efforts? Is it possible for a non-programmer (at least, nothing beyond a few simple Applescripts) to e.g. get the software to recognize guide data from a different website than originally intended? Most software PVRs seem linked pretty much to a single guide data provider.
"It will never get there. Computers are for one thing, TVs for another. The twos can mix, sure, but they're better off both staying separate. Who needs a set-top box that crashes or a computer that slows down because it's recording today's episode of Friends?"
All you've listed are challenges, not stop the presses problems. Nothing you've said backs up your suggestion that it'll never get there. You would have been better of saying "It has some steps to climb before it gets there."
MoviX is a linux distro designed for just that. It's new, young, and needs developers. (Roberto is great though) Many of the PVR apps build on an existing distro, this one is entirely to BE a PVR. Also, it boots from CD, so the hard drive is free to use for storage, etc. http://movix.sf.net -Shawn
...Life is like a bad analogy
And he's constantly looking for more.
You're the villan they're looking for. I didn't think anybody like you actually existed.
... the issue appear to be one of simplification. www.mythtv.org and www.freevo.org are both examples of some pretty advanced projects that could easily stand up against the MS offering with some dedicated resource applied to it to cover the install and hardware issues. We know that it's more than possible... one poster commented that he would stick with his Tivo. If memory serves me correctly Tivo is a linux based box that some commercial vendors have done a great job of packaging. When you look at shipping home entertainment goods of this nature the project constructed around it has to have a really big set of ambitions around integration with existing home entertainment hardware and functionality. MythTV still has to tackle things like control of external set top boxes and time shifted TV... it will come, but the project team seems to be too small to tackle it in any timely manner.
Your link doesn't work...
Anyway, I've seen the software and I couldn't tell from their webpage whether you could actually choose what to record from the PS2. Is it just a distributed media player? From the previous posts, it sounds like it doesn't even have FFWD and REWIND! Impressive.
Never underestimate the power of fiber.
...I already have this. Take one pIII 550, 448mb ram, gf2mx, network card, dvdrom drive and cdrom-burner and a hauppage wintv2go card. .edu line :)
Then get the dvr software hauppage has on it's website, add mame and your done! I record whatever I want on my HD, timed useing a tvguide website. The only thing I have to do is put in when and what I want to record, presto! That last step is really all that separates my setup from a true tivo...but then, I only pay subscription for my phat
So what exactly is the problem here? That it runs windows?
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned the TuxBox project.
See MythTV.
Like they need a villain. They'll take away rights from people all over the world, regardless.
The MPAA, RIAA and sometimes even Congress are damage, and geeks will route around them.
As long as the MPAA, RIAA and the few cable/satellite companies have monopolies on media delivery, and continue to cling to outdated business models, resist new technologies, squash fair use, and attempt to implement nonsensical and tyrannical schemes of all kinds, they are the villain. Far as I'm concerned, anyone who disagrees is a retard, a shill, or just plain old-fashioned contrary (and good for you if you are that curmudgeon - it's cute).
These corporations could choose to sell me the services and products I want, and I'd be glad to pay for them. But they won't. They are irrelevant, and the world will move on in spite of them.
Ive been using a PC as my MEdia center for months now. Works great. My secret was NOT to use a remote control. I just used a wireless mouse from logitech, and have it hooked up to my projector full time. 12 foot screen all the time is nice. I did have to write my own software to handle an Episode Guide, I used the Creative Digital VCR PVR ($50 now). It does the Mpeg2 encoding on its card, so it doesnt eat up CPU. Plus it is easy to export to mpg files for use anywhere.
So, TV, DVD, DivX, Mp3's--anything you can think of, and its is pretty easy to use--Mainly due to Logitech wireless LED mouse.
I posted my hastily written EPG code here: http://x-epg.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=55.
I Encrypt My IM's
FreeplayTV
does what you want, is completely open source (hardware design and the software it runs, currently MythTV), and you can buy a preassembled system from them for just over $300 (although it doesn't include NTSC, you have to pay ATI another $50 or so for that). Since it's based on MythTV, you can play MAME on it, and many other things.
I want a little bit more before I buy: SPDIF output, for example. But they have the basics already; the rest is coming soon.
-Billy
The Win TV 250 PVR has an encoder that some users are having success with the encoding, but it is still very young. Serious discussion is going on on this discussion group. However, the pci card forces users to choose a larger form factor box that can accommodate a pci card instead of the cool small boxes. The MPEG decoder portion has been gloriously included in the new via epia board using the new chipset. I haven't tested how well it works (or if it is supported in linux yet).
In essence, using off the shelf components takes a lot of hardware that would normally be on the motherboard of a true home theater component. Thus, to achieve this we are getting closer but not quite there yet.
All the other operations (mp3/games/networking) etc are already available and very usable on a 933 mhz Via C3.
And no, I don't mean like the standard of one implementation.
1. But I do mean a CD-distro a la Knoppix that you can pop in your PVR-machine and have it work, and that'll be the "standard". Not running on top of ten different distros. There are a lot of good reasons for having ten different distros, but not on a task-spesific device where you'll ideally want to stay in media-center programs 100% of the time.
2. Absolutely no messing with a computer first, setting up anything, or running any kind of command utility. At the very most, some kind of hack prompt to choose NTSC/PAL. GUI interface for the rest.
3. With a good "supported hardware" list that could be a lot shorter than Linux's (like: these TV cards autodetect & tested). As little manual configuring as possible, preferably none. Put some work into autodetection if there are working drivers that don't have so.
4. Some "smart" media library. For always-on users, the ability to put in a cd, have it get the names from FreeDB, rip as ogg and store (default setting being "manual", with an "always" checkbox. After all, it could be borrowed or something, and then it's not covered by fair use to copy it... Kinda like Windows never wants to remember I want to use Nero and not Windows to burn CDs.
5. Dunno if it's being done, but run CDs and DVDs at 1x when playing directly (you can dynamically set this can't you?) so they'll be *quiet*. No 52x CD-reader or 16x DVD-reader with a high-pitch annoying whine. Here's definately some of the reason I think you need *one* distro. Keep speed up if you just want to store it for future use though.
6. *After* you have achived that, try to inspire some mobo-producer to integrate the popular components on one mobo, with a custom made sleek case, something like the mini-ITX/mini-ATX cases I see around. One 5 1/4" slot (CD/DVD/CD-burner/DVD-burner), one 3 1/2" slot (HDD). Ethernet, Firewire and USB for wireless keyboad/mouse. Make it low and wide, like a VCR not like a tower. Important: Make a couple fronts, minimum black/silver. Find a spot on the case front to integrate the IR/radio sensor. A "standard" LCD would also be nice, for when you're only playing music. As for processors, I wouldn't try to put a 2-3GHz proc in this one. Music & DVDs need silence. Cool CPU, passive cooling if you can (maybe with a heat changer like the Shuttle XPCs). As this'll be a ways off, probably SATA, like the Barracuda V. Those smaller cables will be important in such a tight case.
But like I said, start with one PVR-distro CD that'll run directly off your TV and I think you've come far. Also, don't forget what that Ethernet connection is there for, SMB or similar for moving files to and from.
Kjella
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
2) TiVo is a company with company goals. These aren't always in line with what people want.
3) MS wants in in this area. If there's a Free alternative to what is essentually an applience (read MS's inertia doesn't apply) then hw manufacturers/assemblers will quite happily tell MS where to go to save a couple of hundred dollars.
4) It'll be fun.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
The problem I have with this whole thing isn't whether you can build a PC that does all the tricks. I think you can, and I think you can even find a nice A/V component style case for it. The only thing I'd do that I haven't yet heard of someone else doing is make it remotely manageable via SOAP, so that I can build my own user interface or integrate it with other stuff.
My problem is finding a receiver that's built to handle the whole deal and provide the sort of user interface you need to manage it. OK, I can hook up my PC to my receiver as an A/V source and sink, no problem. I can do the same thing (as sources, sinks, or both) with my satellite, CD, tuner, DVD, TV, VCR, cassette deck, phonograph, PS/2 or XBox or whatever, etc. But now try to route all the signals just the way you want, and then get device A (sink) to tune device B (source) to the desired channel. It's a nightmare, if it's even possible.
Those who think of things in terms of computers are still too far removed from those who think of things in terms of A/V components. I'd like to see a forward-thinking company that builds high-end receivers engineer something really non-traditional that lets you take any source signal and route it to any/multiple appropriate sink(s) (note that speakers are a sink), that handles multiple such paths simultaneously, that operates all your devices remotely via I/R or RF or SOAP, and that does it all through an easy front-end. You should be able to apply decoding (e.g., Dolby) to any appropriate signal. You'd probably need a notebook as your remote (client) communicating via wireless to your receiver (server).
I'd also like to see satellite/digital cable tuners get a bit more real...these things should provide multiple outputs, each of which can be tuned independently. Who wants to have to buy another tuner just so you can watch A while recording B? Maybe I haven't done enough research: does such a beast exist?
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
Oh, we exist. And there are far, far too many of us to control, or to arrest, or to demonize.
Where have you been? It's like this on every college campus in the nation.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
It blows my mind that after 2 or more years "debating" hardware specs and distributions, no one has bothered to just make something WORK yet. Why do you need a full distribution? Why do you need fancy hardware?
I'm a firm believer that ALL you need is a suitable Window Manager, a hand-me-down PC, and a $30 TV Out card off price-watch.
Why do you need an ISO? There are already a lot of Linux Distro's that have most of the apps you need, just unselect the stuff you don't need.
The Slick Interface is the trick. I don't even think you need a full blown "Window Manager" because you would want to run EVERYTHING full screen anyhow. All you need is something like Acid Launcher hacked to be used full screen, and return to the launcher when your done with that app.
The ONLY bell/whistle you need at all is complete control of your apps and your launcher by using a USB GamePad (Logitech and MicroSoft sell several for about $20-$40).
If you could grab a gamepad, choose a game or play an MPEG by ICON on your TV screen using the gamepad as a pointer, and when exiting the game/movie you come back to the launcher... What else do you need?
The Launcher HAS to be full screen, and easily hackable (text file that you can enter a number of buttons in, with only command line and path to the icon for each button needed).
Once your that far, I don't think it will be that long before people start hacking apps that work well in full screen mode with gamepad control.
I just want MythTV ported to XP. Call me sick and twisted and flame me for not running Debian... but my home entertainment center PC right now is an XP box. Runs all the programs I want and I never (ever) have a problem with it.
While Guide++ with ATI's player/scheduler is okay, and PowerDVD works well for DVD's, and Winamp is great, I really really want to get one interface for all of it. No more mucking in 4 different apps/gui styles. The only other thing I can think of doing is making some custom skins for the whole of them to make them look unified. I'd just wrather have MythTV on windows though.
For a digital convergence box Yoshi at techTV put every console I can think of into a server case along with an awesome PC. I can't remember what the OS of choice was...
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
Well, I currently use my Linux box for everything too. I have a ATI TV Wonder card for TV (XawTV to watch and record things) and then use my DVD drive with SBLive 5.1/Cambridge Soundworks DTT3500 for Dolby Digital Surround Sound. I've got how to's on my site with config files and screenshots of this stuff. Works for me.
TV http://www.linuxlogin.com/linux/ati_tv.php
DVD/AC3 DTS Sound http://www.linuxlogin.com/linux/emu10k1.php
My house is litered with linux and FreeBSD boxes, in fact out of my entire house's computers (roomates included) there is only one windows box. The damn tv box. We have considered greatly trying to switch to linux but there are too many huge problems in the way. 1. Although linux does have alot of great video and audio players, and support for lots of good codecs we have at least 40gigs of video (out of over 200 gigs) that uses codecs that will only play in windows media player. This video isn't usually the best quality, most of it is anime and various american cartoons (aqua teen hunger force, dr katz) and some is tv shows (mr show, snl, kids in the hall) but we still want to watch all of this. 2. We have normal cable and an ati radeon 7500 all-in-wonder, with guide plus + this makes our own little homemade tivo, which is really nice since we can record shit into mpeg-2 and encode it into divx after editing which you can't do with tivo yet. This software isn't available in linux and frankly, never will. 3. Although linux has made a lot of advancments in getting good drivers for controllers there are still alot of controllers without linux drivers, we happen to have one and like it very much. We have an archive of over 30gigs of roms (full mame set included) and yah, they will run in linux but we can't use one of our best controllers. That's about it, the biggest problem being the bullshit windows media player only video codecs, its really pisses me off that people even use them to encode video but, they do, and im not gonna go and try to find that video somewhere else. I love the idea of the linux media box but it will probably end up being like java.... good idea, but damn the implementations.
Check out Telly.
It's a Linux based box with photos, pvr, music, etc. with TV out and IR. If they can ever bring this to market, it'll run $699.
I was going to build my own, but would end up spending more cash and building a sub-par hack UI. I need something that the wife can work so I can toss my 13 yr. old VCR before it dies.
for all the ones who asked for an iso solution : movix
#include "coucou.h"