First Israeli in Space

Sleepyman writes "CNN has a story about the first Israeli in space going on STS 107 Slated to takeoff today from NASA's Space Center in Florida this afternoon. Good luck to him and the rest of the crew of STS 107."

Comments

'Jeeeewwss Iiiiinnn Spaaace!!!'

[MonTemplar]

For some reason, the scene from the end of Mel Brooks's film History of The World Part 1 just bounced into my head... :)

Re:'Jeeeewwss Iiiiinnn Spaaace!!!'

[Elroy Jetson]

THANK YOU!

I was hoping I wasn't the only one humming that song all day. ;0)

Re:'Jeeeewwss Iiiiinnn Spaaace!!!'

[SamTheButcher]

Ditto MT & Elroy! I knew it wasn't going to be an original thought, but I thought I'd check and see who else had my sense of humour. :)

Re:'Jeeeewwss Iiiiinnn Spaaace!!!'

[MonTemplar]

May the Shwartz be with you, young man. :)

anti-semitism

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, I am always shocked by the amount of anti-semitism on slashdot. I always thought the /. crowd was different. I was wrong.

Re:anti-semitism

[Anonymous Coward]

What anti-semitism? All I can see is expressions of anti-Israel sentiment which is quite a different thing. If you look at what Israel is doing these views are quite understandable. The anti-semite label is a great way of shutting up vocal opponents, but it doesn't wash with me anymore.

Re:anti-semitism

[Anonymous Coward]

Being anti-israel != anti semitism.

Re:anti-semitism

[Henry V .009]

When you posted there were four posts criticizing Israel. One post comparing Israelis to domesticated animals and another alleging complicity in the 9/11 attacks. One post said that the Israelis should move to the moon so that the Palestinians could get their land back and another post spoke about how the average Palestinian might react to this news.

That seems to me to be about 50% anti-Semite and 50% anti-Israel. The original poster's statement was therefore spot-on.

Re:anti-semitism

[ddriver]

Umnnn, Sure it does.
It was decided by the winners of WWI that they didn't want all of those displaced Jews entering their countries so they allowed the Jews to use the area they had purchased all of the land in as a homeland. The Arabs are just pissed off that the swamp land that they sold to the Jews at a premium price was drained and turned into a great country.

BTW Palestine is a Roman word understood to mean the land that the Hebrews dwell in.

Re:anti-semitism

[Henry V .009]

I didn't see the 'Jews in space'--gotta love Mel Brooks--as racist either, otherwise the figure would have been 75%. I disagree about your other point though. Anyone seriously suggesting that Israel knew about 9/11 is anti-Semitic, and terribly so--there is no other reason to propagate libel like that. It's all part of the original story that was getting passed through the Arab world about how 'the Jews all left the WTC before the planes hit'.

Re:anti-semitism

[Anonymous Coward]

This is probably going to be off-topic, but Slashdot is a discussion site, and I'd like to get everyone's viewpoint.

I'm Jewish, but not Israeli. And it's an important thing to note that not all Jews are anti-Palestine. The Reform Jewish movement (Judaism has "movements", like Christianity has denomonations) has publically stated it's for the establishment of a Palestinian state. Several Orthodox (!) congregations have chimed in as well.

However, that doesn't mean that Israel should cease to exist. This is an overused analogy, but considering my wife is full-blooded Chickasaw, a useful one. The Chicaksaw (a Native American nation) were here first, but nobody expects the United States to dissolve and give back the land to the Native Americans. Instead, they've established semi-soverign "states within states" for the Chickasaw. How long does Isreal have to exist before they're considered a valid nation, and not illegal conquerors?

Now, in Israel/Palestine, the land is still ethnically divided across more geographic lines. Therefore, it'd be easier to make it two states, instead of states-within-states. I'm totally for this.

But, I've also often noticed that, among a lot of people today, it's "cool" to be anti-Israel. I'm assuming this is because their parents were pro-Israel. I dunno.

Think about it. Atrocities have been comitted on both sides. Great Britian, who had mandate over the land, gave it to the Zionists for a homeland. Was that right? Maybe, maybe not. But the UN recognized it, and the greater community of nations recognized it, so it happened. Now, we have suicide bombings, and tanks running down children.

I've lived all over the world, and it's amazing how different the media handles things. Here in the US, it's Palestinians bombing busses. In Europe, it's Israelis shooting houses. Given Europe's past history, I'd be inclined to believe that there is a bit more anti-Semitism in play than we are led to believe. (Before I get flamed into extinction - I'm not saying that all of Europe is anti-Semtic, I just think that European media is anti-Semetic, just like the American media is anti-Palestine. The media takes sides, don't forget). I lived in Europe for two years, and never had a problem. Just noting the media bias.

So, before you get on a high horse and say "look at how evil Israel is", yadda yadda yadda, remember that boths sides are to blame. *Both* sides. Not one, not the other.

And it sucks.

Re:anti-semitism

[ddriver]

The Palestinians have a state. It's called Jordan. The people that Arafat has convinced to start calling themselves Palestinians are just a bunch of blood-thirsty Jordanians that keep getting kicked out of every country that they settle in. So now the Arab world has foisted them off in Israel in hopes that one will kill off the other, not mattering which way the hammer falls.

If the Jews kill off all of the Palestinians, there will be no more Palestinians unsettling the Arab country's governments, and they will have a reason to try invade a weakened Israel once again.

If the Palestinians kill off the Jews, then great more Jews are dead! And the Palestinians will be easier to contain in the blasted remains of the country.

Why do you think that no Arab countries are really pushing for a separate Palestinian state?

They are using them one against the other. Which ever one is left will be weak and easy to control or invade.

Re:anti-semitism

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Exactly. To protest the actions of Israel is not to necessarily cast aspersions on all Jews. If you believed that to be correct, you would have to believe that questioning the leadership and policies of Uganda makes one an anti-African American racist.

I feel comfortable questioning Uganda, but do not consider myself a racist. The only difference here is that Israel is the only country led by Jews--I believe--whereas there are other countries besides Uganda led by blacks.

I will challenge Israel's policies but I will not accept being called a racist because of it.

Re:anti-semitism

[StressedEd]

If there's one thing sure to annoy me it's the use of throw-away terms like "anti-Semitic" used by people incorrectly.

I'd be inclined to believe that there is a bit more anti-Semitism in play than we are led to believe.

Are you sure you mean anti-semitism? Semitic refers to the Jews, Arabs and many less well known groups.

Surely in this context you wanted to say anti-Jewish.

Reference below for your edification (emphasis mine)

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]

Semitic \Sem*it"ic\, a.
Of or pertaining to Shem or his descendants; belonging to
that division of the Caucasian race which includes the Arabs,
Jews, and related races. [Written also Shemitic.]

Semitic language, a name used to designate a group of
Asiatic and African languages, some living and some dead,
namely: Hebrew and Ph[oe]nician, Aramaic, Assyrian,
Arabic, Ethiopic (Geez and Ampharic). --Encyc. Brit.

However, in the current political climate you are probably right, there is almost certainly increasing anti-Semitism. Currently this seems to be mostly coming from the USA and directed at the Arabs of the Middle East in a country whos name begins with "IRA" and ends with "Q" (pun intended).

-ed

Re:anti-semitism

[perlyking]

Anyone seriously suggesting that Israel knew about 9/11 is anti-Semitic

Or perhaps they know more than you, or have actually looked into it rather than reject it out of hand.

You still dont seem to get that being against Israeli policies is not the same as being anti semitic.
If someone said "Jews are behind 11th september!!!" then that would be racist and I would be offended.

Re:anti-semitism

[Fnkmaster]

Listen, if you are going to be a nitpicker, at least do it correctly. See, for example, The American Heritage Definition of anti-semitism. The fact is that though Semitic refers to an ethnic group of people that includes both Arabs and Jews, the word anti-semitism has come to generally carry the connotation of dislike, hatred of or prejudice against Jews specifically. Webster's Revised Unabriged Dictionary says:

\An`ti-Sem"i*tism\, n. Opposition to, or hatred of, Semites, esp. Jews

And the American Heritage Dictionary says:

anti-Semitism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.

1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.

2. Discrimination against Jews.

So I think the words modern meaning is pretty clear. Somebody posts this same post every time anybody uses the word, and it's just as bad (actually worse) than the people who bitch about the media's use of the word "hacker" rather than
"cracker". The evolution of a language is not always perfectly logical, and the important part is that we commonly understand what the words mean.

Re:anti-semitism

[Mononoke]

The Arabs are just pissed off that the swamp land that they sold to the Jews at a premium price was drained and turned into a great country.

A great country?

Re:anti-semitism

[perlyking]

He isnt american (I assume!) so I doubt the American Heritage dictionary carries too much weight with him ;-)
I submit the following entry for your dictionary:

The word anti-semitism has come to generally carry the connotation of dislike, hatred of or prejudice against Israel specifically.

Re:anti-semitism

[StressedEd]

Listen, if you are going to be a nitpicker, ........surely you mean "pedant" ;-) ? (Please engage ironic humour)

The fact is that though Semitic refers to an ethnic group of people that includes both Arabs and Jews, the word anti-semitism has come to generally carry the connotation of dislike, hatred of or prejudice against Jews specifically.

Of course I realise that. It has come to that because people keep using the phrase incorrectly. Hence my pompous one man stand to turn back the tide and influence the linguistic landscape of the English language. (please note my tongue is firmly in my cheek here).

My point is that the use of the phrase "anti-Semetic" to mean "anti-Jewish" is an unnecessary erosion of meaning. It's like using "British" to mean the English, Scots and the Welsh and using "anti-British" to mean anti-English.

Sooner or later the continued dilution of meaning will result in the word Semetic meaning Jewish. When we wish to talk about the group of people currently known as Semites someone will have to invent a new word describing the people of the region and their emigrated descendents.

The evolution of a language is not always perfectly logical

Amen to that.

Re:anti-semitism

[Anonymous Coward]

ummm. as far as rebellious youth goes, I don't know anyone (I'm british) left *AT ALL* who is still pro Israeli, and if they were over thirty *THEY ALL USED TO BE*.

i'd like to think that our press (can't vouch for it all, but certainly tv) covers the conflict evenly. Whenever a suicide bomber goes off, it is covered HEAVILY. It just so happens at the moment that the Israelis ARE killing more Palestinians at the moment (about three a day it seems like).

Some media is anti-Israeli, but I would wager most is still more anti-Palestine JUST by virtue of swallowing everything that the Israeli press corp throws at them. so does laziness count?

We didn't even get that pissed off here when a British UN worker was sniped by a trigger happy israeli kid. We bought the Israeli line that he was "acting suspiciously" (he was actually negotiating a cease-fire - something he kept pissing off the Israeli army by trying to do).

Re:anti-semitism

[puterguy]

Learn some history. Israel was a remote outpost of the Ottoman empire that was mostly devestated and had few inhabitants until the Jewish immigration catalyzed development and an economic boom. Just read Mark Twain's lamenting depiction of the Holy Land in the mid-19th century to get the picture. Indeed the Northern part of Israel were swampy and malaria infested until drained by Israeli pioneers. Much of the rest of the land was desert (in fact if you pick up paving stones in many cities such as Tel Aviv) you will see "sand" underneath. Palestine was a name "chosen" by the Romans to punish the Jews after a failed revolt in the 1st century CE. They purposely evoked the sound of the ancient "Phillistines" to negate one thousand years of Jewish nationhood. Of course the Philistines have no ethnic or racial connection to the current Palestinians who descend from nomadic Arabic tribes. The Phillistines who were originally concentrated in the Southern Coastal plain were long gone even by the time of the Romans. Of course over time, the term Palestine became to be associated with the Jews not the Arabs. In fact, the pre-state Jewish newspaper was called the Palestine Post. The local Arabs before the "discovery" of Palestinian nationalism adamantly refused to be called Palestinians and instead identified with greater Syria or other pan-Arab ideas. The vast majority of current-day Palestinians have roots in the area going back only about 100 years or so, having immigrated contemporaneously with the better known Zionist immigration. Of course, you also know that even with the West Bank and Gaza strip the current area under Israeli control is only about 22% of the original British mandate for a Jewish National Home. Trans (Jordan) was split off in the 1920s. The British and UN then decided to split the remaining ~20% between Jews and Arabs, but the greedy Arab nations weren't even willing to concede 10% of the original mandated territory to a Jewish state, so they launched the first of many wars. In the course of those wars, Israel gained territory first in 1948 and then again in 1967. Only once the Arabs realized that they couldn't destroy Israel on the battlefield did they invent and then promote Palestinain nationalism and rights. Just one further tidbit: Did you know that the Israeli *Arab* infant mortality rate is now lower than the infant mortality rate in any other Arab country, including such rich areas such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?

Re:anti-semitism

[puterguy]

You may be a student of Latin, but you are certainly no student of history. Go learn some Roman history and you will see when and why the Romans changed the name on their maps from Judea to Palestine. (hint: it had something to do with punishing the Jews for a recent revolt). Similarly, Jerusalem was renamed Aelia Capitolina (some more Latin for you :) Or look at some more modern history, where the major English Jewish paper was called the "Palestine Post". Before 1948, the local Arab population actively refused to identify with the term Palestine since that term had long been used to refer to the Jewish concept and geography of the Holy Land. Here is some background: It was not until the Romans crushed the second Jewish revolt against Rome in 135 A.D. under Bar Kochba that Emperor Hadrian applied the term Palestine to the Land of Israel. Hadrian, like many dictators since his time realized the propaganda power of terms and symbols. He replaced the shrines of the Jewish Temple and the Sepulchre of Christ in Jerusalem with temples to pagan deities. He changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitalina, and changed the name of Israel and Judea to Palestine. Hadrian's selection of Palestine was purposeful, not accidental. He took the name of the ancient enemies of Israel, the Philistines, Latinized it to Palestine, and applied it to the Land of Israel. He hoped to erase the name Israel from all memory. Thus, the term Palestine as applied to the Land of Israel was invented by the inveterate enemy of the Bible and the Jewish people, Emperor Hadrian. It is interesting to note that the original Philistines were not Middle Eastern at all. They were European peoples from the Adriatic sea next to Greece. It may have pleased Hadrian to utilize this Hellenistic term for the Jewish land. In any case, the original "Palestinians" had nothing to do, whatsoever, with any Arabs.

Re:anti-semitism

[puterguy]

Now of course: ...if you reserved all your national hatred and criticisms to black countries... ...if you referred to the citizens of black countries as subhumans ... if you believed that blacks don't have a right to any countries... ... if you denigrated all positive achievements of the black countries while choosing to focus exclusively on their faults... Well, then intelligent people just might call you a racist... (and they probably would be right!)

Re:anti-semitism

[puterguy]

Maybe 1 is vague.
I will rephrase.

1. If you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist and that Jews have a right to national expression in their ancient homeland while at the same time supporting the right of every other group to its own state (e.g., Palestinians, Kurds, Basque, Tibet, etc.) then you might want to take out the mirror and see if you see some anti-Semitism in the background.

Considering the common rationalizations for a nation-state, it is hard to argue that *any* country is as deserving of a strongly defended national home then the Jews.

Here are the commnon rationalizations for nations states:
1. Protect the lives and interests of a vulnerable group
2. Serve as a common home for people with distinct culture, language, religion, and traditions
3. Recognize longstanding historic ties to a particular patch of land
4. De-Facto recognition of a current reality (facts on the ground)

Re:anti-semitism

[puterguy]

You are entitled to your theoretical opinions.

I think though that most Israelis realize that without a majority they would not just be second class citizens but dead.

The Middle East is very similar to Europe in its treatment of minorities. The only difference is that in European countries that tend to just supress or deport them while in Arab countries they kill them.

So, in your fairy book and idealistic conception of the world there is indeed no room for ethnically-based states, others who worry about their very lives think and act differently.

But then again without a real danger of anti-Semitism, there would be less need for a state of Israel...

Re:anti-semitism

[swissmonkey]

The Middle East is very similar to Europe in its treatment of minorities. The only difference is that in European countries that tend to just supress or deport them while in Arab countries they kill them.


Switzerland has 20% of foreign people in its population, and it's still growing.
France is close to that number also, many of them being arabs.
Germany has an enormous turkish minority
Other countries have the same kind of ratios.

So you are either ignorant or misinformed

Re:anti-semitism

[puterguy]

You say: So you are either ignorant or misinformed

You are confusing numbers of foreigners with their treatment. As you admitted before, Switzerland denies the basic rights of vote and citizenship to nearly 20% of its population (80% of which have been living there for 20+ years and many of whom are 2nd or 3rd generation!!!!) Maybe you should see the film "Bread and Chocolate"

Remind me, isn't Switzerland the country that has had 6 referenda on setting a cap on immigration? If I remember correctly the cap in 2000 was to be set at 18% which would require deporting some 100,000 people?

Talking about collective punishment here...

Re:anti-semitism

[Bob Vila's Hammer]

You are wrong.

Re:anti-semitism

[swissmonkey]

Wow, tell me how many countries give the right of vote to foreign people ?
Almost none.

Foreign people can become citizens, like all my family did, and that's how most people in Switzerland got their citizenships since most of them have roots coming from other countries.

Switzerland had these referendums, they were all rejected, Switzerland has more refugees per citizen than any other country in Europe except Luxembourg.

So yes, you either lie or don't know what you're talking about.

Re:anti-semitism

[puterguy]

What lie are you talking about?

All I said was that the Swiss are extremely xenophobic as evidenced by their racist citizenship laws and persistent anti-foreigner sentiment as evidenced by repeated legal attempts to cap the number of immigrants.

Switzerland has one of the toughest citizen laws requiring a minimum of 12 years stay plus you must satisfy a web of requirements at the national, canton, and local level. You can live there all your life (as my father-in-law did) and still not be granted citizenship.

I also am sure that the average Swiss who came from some neighboring Western country several centuries ago does not in the least see much commonality with a Middle-Eastern Muslim immigrant like yourself.

You may have gotten citizenship, but you can be sure that the "real" Swiss will never consider you to be one of them.

Re:anti-semitism

[swissmonkey]

Switzerland has though laws when it comes to becoming a citizen, yes. If you do not integrate into the country, I don't see why you should be considered swiss. Swiss people have common points, if you do not meet them then I don't see how you can be considered swiss.

But it's not that hard to become swiss, my parents do not know much about swiss history, but they're fluent in french, they never caused any trouble to anybody,... They got it easily. Since I was a kid, I got it faster than the 12 years since kids have every year count twice.

Finally, I was very well integrated, all my friends treated my like everybody else, same thing in the army.

Oh and by the way, stop thinking that people who are disgusted by Israel's policies are automatically from the middle-east and muslim, I'm of greek origin.

Re:anti-semitism

[veliath]

The vast majority of current-day Palestinians have roots in the area going back only about 100 years or so, having immigrated contemporaneously with the better known Zionist immigration.

• Do you have any references you can provide on this "going back only about 100 years" immigration of the Arab Palestinies?
• 
  
  And so what if it was? How many Jews were there in Palestine before the Zionists moved in?
  
  Why should the British or even the UN decide on a Jewish home land by giving away land that wasn't theirs to begin with? So what if the Zionists only got 22% of the land that the British meant them to have? You mean the Arabs (Jordanians) should be happy that they got 78% of their land and should not shutup and go home.
  
  I understand a lot of the confusion arose because the British required that land be registered. Literate Arabs in present day Jordan registered the land in their names and then sold it to Zionists all without the permission of the illiterate farmers living on these lands.
  
  Trans(Jordan) was pretty densely populated I am sure. I suppose you mean because the British agreed to hand these over to the Zionists it belongs to them now. The Zionists have somehow been wronged by not being given something that belonged to someone else!
  
  And the Arabs are greedy for not giving only 10% of their land to Zionists who at the time were known to be racist and practise selective hiring and had established patterns of chasing Arabs off from areas they were moving into.
  
  What peoples would allow their own eviction? I understand at the time of partition 10% of Palestine was Jewish and the remaining 90% Arab.
  
  And about Arab infant mortality - its a lot like saying the blacks under apartheid were better of than the ones in the rest of Africa, so they ought to be grateful!:-7
  
  Israel I understand gets aid running into the billions every year from the US. The Israeli Arabs are so lucky to live in a country so blessed.
  
  The present day situation of the Paletinies are a result of British, Zionist and neighbouring-Arabs meddling/mucking up. They have done nothing to deserve it themselves except maybe for being more disorganized than they should be.

Re:anti-semitism

[corebreech]

The Chicaksaw (a Native American nation) were here first, but nobody expects the United States to dissolve and give back the land to the Native Americans.

Nobody expects Israel to dissolve. Just stay within your borders, the same as we expect from every single other nation on the planet. Stop invading other peoples' land and demolishing their homes. Stop killing their people.

And we do give land back to the Native Americans. As much as we should? Hardly. But there's another factor at play here: time. The land stolen from Native Americans was done by Americans who are now long dead. Not so with the Israelis.

Your position seems to be that simply because people have stolen land from others in the past that it is OK to do so now and in the future. Clearly, that is an unacceptible position. It's embarrassing that anybody even needs to be told this.

But, I've also often noticed that, among a lot of people today, it's "cool" to be anti-Israel.

I suppose it never occurred to you that a lot of people think it sucks when a mighty military power subjects a defenseless people to a brutal occupation, taking their lives and stealing their land in the process. Do you think that might have something to do with it?

Do you understand that a significant chunk of the money I pay in taxes is diverted to Israel every year so they can engage in these brutal exercises? And that they are only able to get this money by virtue of their having bribed our Congress into being so generous with my money? That the reason Israel possesses this mighty military machine is almost entirely due to the aid it receives from America? That most if not all of the news we get from our media here is so hopelessly biased against the Palestinians that I now have to rely on foreign news organizations to keep me informed on what is really happening there?

"Cool" has nothing to do with it.

Atrocities have been comitted on both sides.

Since Sharon's trip to the Temple Mount the number of Palestinian dead exceeds that of Israeli dead by a ratio of nearly 3-to-1. That fact, coupled with the naked aggression on the part of the Israelis by occupying Palestinian lands by force and demolishing Palestinian homes clearly places the atrocities Israel commits in a different class altogether than those committed by the Palestinians.

Great Britian, who had mandate over the land, gave it to the Zionists for a homeland.

Why not stick to the matter of Israelis stealing land beyond what was "given" to them by Great Britain, the matter that is foremost in peoples' minds, the matter that so provokes the Palestinians.

So, before you get on a high horse and say "look at how evil Israel is", yadda yadda yadda, remember that boths sides are to blame. *Both* sides. Not one, not the other.

Nice try. Israel is the aggressor. Israel is brutalizing a defenseless people. It's amazing that anybody would even try to spin it any other way. The fact that they are is a testament to the tremendous influence Jews have in American media.

Re:anti-semitism

[swissmonkey]

That's what you don't understand, Israel is not my only punching bag.

Put a news on Slashdot about how kurds are treated by Turkey/Syria/..., about how people from Tibet are treated by China, how Tchetchens are treated by Russians, ... and you will get the same kind of reaction from my part.

Thing is, the media talks more about Israel than the other conflicts, so there's no occasion of speaking of the other problems, but they nonetheless exist.

If you want comparisons, what the russians are doing to the tchetchens is worse than what Israelis are doing to the palestinians, that does not make israel a good country, it just means that Russia is worse.

This is news ?

[Eivind]

What exactly is news in this ? The *nationality* of a astronaut ? Will we now have slashdot storeis about the first astronaut from all countries ?

Apparently what he's doing or what the mission is for or anything of the sort is not interesting enough to be worth metioning, only the nationality is so sensational it deserves a story of its own.

Oh, and offcourse anything who says /anything/ that is a) negative and b) involves israel, however indirectly, is a rabid anti-semite.

Re:This is news ?

[serano]

Things like this make the news because they ARE important to the groups they represent. Society at large cares because it affects the "general impression" people have of that group. For the same reason, negative news about groups also make headlines.

Some people who react negatively to positive publicity about other groups feel threatened by those groups.

Re:This is news ?

[Eivind]

Things like this make the news because they ARE important to the groups they represent.

Yes, sure. I'm not surprised that say Israeli news-sources would report on it. Like you said, it migth have importance for the groups it represents.

What I question is why it's newsworthy for Slashdot. For an international collection of mostly hackers or whatever. Do you really think this would be reported if it was the first astronaut from any other tiny country ?

Was Norways first astronaut reported ? Swedens ? Mexicos ? Italys ?

To me it still smells like a "Go Israel!" propaganda-article. You're free to disagree offcourse.

This IS worth news here...

[0x69]

This IS worthy Slashdot Science Section news, but NOT because of the "first person from country X in space" angle.

The important science news here is all about political use of the Space Shuttle, the security problems created thereby (how many lives and $millions would certain terrorists happily give to sabotage or shoot down this Shuttle?), etc.

(Yes, i know that the whole Shuttle program is at least as much about pork spreading as space science, and that's *very* old news.)

Re:This IS worth news here...

[thelaw]

look - space exploration has always been about politics.

why did the US start the space race? to beat the soviet union to it.

why did the US want to hit the moon by 1970? to beat the soviet union to it.

much of the technology used in ICBMs was converted to NASA gear, and vice versa.

don't fool yourself - no country explores space for the joy of exploration. they do it because it has tangible payoffs in the economic, political, and military worlds.

jon

The real news...

[jacoberrol]

is how they are able drive a Cadillac into outer space! Gag... moan... argh

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[ddriver]

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Israel has fought the entire Arab world and beaten it three times, taking land each time. They even crossed the Suez the last time, intent on capturing Egypt, that is until the US stepped in to protect Egypt. If anything the US is protecting the Arabs from the Israelis. Just look at what is happening with the Palestinians. If it had been left up to the Zionist old guard they would have been put down a long time ago.

So ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every day the israeli's try and put Palestinians in orbit. What's the big deal ?

First /. posting by a feline

[RevDobbs]

And now, for your enjoyment, the first /. posting by a cat:

-----
sarghbn9o8'
451902
0-pkl, mn dsx 32

-----

(missed were the multiple function keys that were also stepped on.)

Important information

[Anonymous Coward]

Ilan Ramon, the Israeli astronaut, was one of the F-16 pilots who had bombarded and destroyed the Iraqi nuclear reactor back in 1981. If not for him (or rather, if not for the Israeli Air Force), ten years later (in 1991) the USA would have had to face an Iraq that owns nuclear weapons. Not a nice prospect.

Re:Important information

[stefanlasiewski]

*shrug*
and Did Iraq use them? no.

Tell that to the poor Kurds and Iranians who died from the mustard and nerve gas in the late 80's.

Re:Important information

[puterguy]

That one mission saved the US more money (let alone) than all the aid ever given to Israel. ...and to think of all the self-riteous nations that sat around the security council condemming Israel

Re:Important information

[_ph1ux_]

tell that to the poor iraqi people who are exposed to the depleted uranium we poured all over their country for the last 12 years.

Best watch out for the Palestinian militants...

[BalkanBoy]

or we might have ourselves a Gaza-Trek strip in space ;).

Mel Brooks was right.

[cosmol]

Remeber the end of history of the world? "We're Jews in space, zooming around protecting the hebrew race!" I wish I could find a screen grab of that.

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[puterguy]

Houses containing suicide bombers and missile factories... You are a classic vicitim of moral equivalence: 1. Suicide bombers purposely target as many innocent women and children as possible 2. Israel responds by targeting specifically the houses used to train terrorists, produce munitions, and serve as ambush points. Sometimes, innocent bystanders are mistakenly hit or targeted. I only wish Israel were half as cruel as you claim. Instead, Israel daily risks soldiers lives by conducting pinpoint missions rather than engaging in the type of B52 carpet bombing that the US and its allies use in Afghanistan. In fact, most observors would agree that if Israel had "only" been a bit a bit less cautious in applying force, this whole bloody Intifidah would have been put down in a couple of days leaving only a few hundred at most dead. We would then be back to the peace process... Instead, Israel has chosen the classic Western response of measured reaction which in the long run tends to only prolong the conflict. An objective comparison of Israeli vs. Palestinian behavior would be to look at the demographics of the victims. Assuming that on both sided children under 10 and to a lesser extent women tend to be non-combatants, why don't you look at the "kill ratios" for boths sides? It is a small miracle and a testament to Israels' overly concern with human rights and human rights that after more than 2 years of constant attacks, "only" about 2000 Palestinians have been killed or about 2 per day. If you look only at non-combatant Palestinians, then you have about one a week. Believe, me if Israel were trigger happy, there would be thousands a day. What other *daily* World conflict has led to less death? Many Palestinians have been known to admit how lucky they are to have Israel as their enemy rather than one of their brother Arab leaders. When there was a rebellion in Syria, Assad put it down by killing 20,000 in a month. Similarly, the great moderate King Hussein of Jordan killed more Palestinians than Israel ever did in just one short Month in September 1970.

Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

Could it be Anti-Semitism?

When you think about it, Israel is one of the smallest countries in the world. Even if the Israeli and Palestinian populations fought to the death it wouldn't make a dent in the world popultion. Despite all the tragedies, the number killed on both sides combined account for only a tiny fraction of the violent deaths in the world. Israel has no natural resources which Europeans covet. If Europeans were truly concerned about doing good in the world, there are many jucier projects both among the neighboring MidEast dictators and in just about every other corner of the world.

To many distant observors, the pathological fixation of Europeans on Israel while at the same time selling their soles to the most evil dictators in the world smacks of a delusional illness. That illness bears an uncanny resemblance to the thousand year fixation of Europeans on opressing their small and weak internal minorities. In the scientific and medical world, when 2 species or maladies exhibit many similarities, Occum's razor calls for classifying them as similar. So, to many European knee-jerk anti-Israel sentiment is near indistinguishable from knee-jerk anti-Semitism. Wh

What else could explain the boycott of Israeli academics even though the academic segment in Israel is about as left wing and pro-Palestinian as any segment?

Of course, since much of Europe contributed collectively to the near extermination of European Jewry, it is only natural that they now need to turn to Israel to find new sources of Jew hatred.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Why ?

Probably because they don't hate them, they are just disgusted at the way Israel act, which means:
- legalization of torture
- illegal building of settlements in occupied areas in violation of Geneva Conventions
- violation of UN resolutions since 30 years
- Israeli army exactions in occupied territories, documented by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,...
- collective punishments (houses destruction, olive trees fields destructions,...), which is a violation of human rights and a war crime
- discrimination towards Israeli-Arabs (and no, being able to be elected is not a proof of non-discrimination) ...

It's so easy to always accuse people of anti-semitism whenever they criticize Israel, but it won't hide the crimes of the state of Israel, and one day this country will have to pay for these crimes the same way Switzerland had to pay for the jewish gold in its banks, the same way Germany had to pay for everything it has done during World War II,...

Israel is a criminal state, as Iraq is.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

You did not answer the question. I asked why do Europeans disproportionately hate Israel compared to the scores of other evil places in the world? Even if you accept as gospel all of your complaints, you can't seriously believe that life is better in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia or any of the dozens of other dozens of dictatorships that money hungry Europeans open their checkbooks to.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Why ?

Palestinians have CLEARLY a worse life in Israel than they would in Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia,...

Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia,... do not :
- violate UN resolutions
- violate Geneva conventions on rules of war
- occupy illegaly the land of another people
- do collective punishments ...

Life in Israel is nice for Israeli jews, but not for the arabs. Israel is an apartheid state.

Life in these arab countries under dictatorship is what's called an "internal matter" of these countries, these are sovereign countries and even though most of the world disagree with what's happening inside, they can't do much.

In Israel's case, it's not an internal matter, Israel is violating international resolutions, occupying another people's land, this is an international matter.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

Time to take off the anti-Semitic mask and anti-Israel propaganda and look at some cold, hard facts

- Myth: legalization of torture
Fact: Supreme court in Israel has outlawed even relatively trivial amounts of "physical pressure" even when there is a "ticking bomb." Some interrogation pressure is still allowed when there is a "ticking bomb" such as sleep deprivation, long periods of standing, and emotional pressure. None of this is even remotely comparable to the rampant real-live sadistic torture that is common with many of Europe's best friends in the Middle East. Of course, the US and its allies behave similarly and don't exactly serve tea to captives in Afghanistan and elsewhere... The perhaps legitimate criticism of Israeli behavior is the degree of aggressiveness in pursuing criminal charges against individual violators who do so against regulations. (But then again, we all know about how individual European countries have even more egregriously shielded their UN peacekeeping citizens from prosecution for rape and other crimes while serving in the former Yugoslavia.)

- Myth: illegal building of settlements in occupied areas in violation of Geneva Conventions
Fact 1: Many 3rd party legal scholars challenge whether the Geneva Convention even applies to the territories since technically they never had any officially recognized sovereignty since they were previously occupied illegally by Jordan (where was the UN then?) and prior to that they were in the category of mandate.
Fact 2: Denying Jewish rights to settlement in the Territories would be recognizing the 100% ethnic cleansing performed by the Jordanians in 1948 and by Arab pogroms in the preceding decades. Many settlements have been rebuilt over areas that had been levelled in 1948 (including even some of the settlements in Gaza). Hebron's 3 thousand years of continual Jewish presence was wiped out by the 1929 Arab pogrom - the downtown market area still has Jewish symbols carved into many of the homes.

Myth: violation of UN resolutions since 30 years
Fact: First, Israel, in contrast to Iraq, has not violated any of the binding UN resolutions. Second, Israel can hardly be blamed for violating that are completely politically motivated and biased. For example, "Zionism is Racism" is one of the better known examples of UN wisdom. Should Jews be required to remove all references to Zion (a synonym for Jerusalem) from the bible and prayer books?

- Myth: Israeli army exactions in occupied territories, documented by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch,...
Fact1: Israel every day takes huge risks to target operations and limit damage. Believe me, it would be a lot easier to solve the problem the US way by carpet bombing with B52s from 30,000+ feet.
Fact 2: War is hell. People who live in glass houses shouldn't plant bombs. You can't go around launching morters, blowing up busses, knifing kids, throwing Molotov cocktails and be expected to be given a "timeout". On the other hand, I seem to remember Israel offering to give back 95%+ of the territories without even getting a counter-offer.

- Myth: collective punishments (houses destruction, olive trees fields destructions,...), which is a violation of human rights and a war crime
Fact: Saying that blowing up a terrorist's home or destroying a mortar factory is collective punishment is a bit of a stretch. Sometimes houses or trees are destroyed when they have been used by snipers to kill civilians. Again, people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw Molotov Cocktails. Of course, most other countries would have levelled the whole area by now...

- Myth: discrimination towards Israeli-Arabs (and no, being able to be elected is not a proof of non-discrimination) ...
Fact 1: Just last week the Supreme Court allowed several Arab candidates to run for election who have stood shoulder-to-shoulder with terrorist leaders in enemy countries and who have praised suicide bombers. Most European countries would have them arrested and certainly would disqualify them from election.
Fact 2: The average standard of living and infant mortality rate is better among Israeli Arabs than among even the wealthiest Arab countries
Fact 3: There is way more human rights and freedom of speech for Israeli Arabs in Israel than for Arabs in any other Arab country.

Bottom line: Is Israel perfect? Of course not. But given that Israel's very existence is challenged daily in both word and deed, it is a true measure of Sainthood that things are not much worse both for Palestinians and for their Israeli Arab supporters.

I personally think that Israel is stupid for attempting to live up to a higher standard that it is never given credit for.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

You say: Israel is a criminal state, as Iraq is. I can think of only 2 possibilities that would merit such a comparison: 1. You are totally ignorant 2. You are a vile anti-Semite

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

Really, you are about as ignorant as they come. Let's take some examples. Many Palestinians are Christians. Do you know how Christians are treated in Saudi Arabia? Did you know that any Moslem who converts to Christianity is given the death penalty. Many Palestinians are used to Western vices such as alcahol and pre-marital sex. Did you know that such crimes result in wipping and execution in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran Female Palestinians can drive cars and don't have to cover their bodies with shapeless rags. What are their rights in Saudi Arabia. The Palestinian press is pretty lively. Many Palestinians gripe about their leaders almost as much as they gripe about Israel :) Do you know what happens to people who criticize the President of Syria? Interesting that Arabs on the Golan are not part of the intifidah. Did you ever think that the last thing they want to do is become part of Syria? Another test: Which is more dangerous to your physical well-being: 1. Standing up as an Israeli Arab student in the middle of a University classroom and saying that you support the Intifidah and that you think suicide bombers are martyrs 2. Standing in the middle of the street in Saudi Arabia and saying a Christian prayer. I invite you try them both :)

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Legalization of torture
Amnesty International Go see by yourself

Illegal building of settlements
Everybody in the world except a tiny minority agrees that Israel is illegally occupying the territories gained after the 1967 war. That's a FACT.

Violation of UN resolutions since 30 years
Israel is violating UN resolution 242, which was voted by the security council and thus is binding by opposition to general assembly resolutions which are not binding.
The fact that the resolution is binding or not does not change anything to the fact that Israel is violating them by the way.

Israeli exactions in occupied territories
The fact that other armies would be worse does not change the fact that Israel is commiting exactions, period.
Israel's offer to the palestinians is not clear, 95% of the territories cut in small pieces is not an acceptable offer. Until I've seen the papers explaining clearly the offer I won't believe either the palestinian or the israeli side as to what was proposed during these discussions

collective punishments
Destroying a house is a collective punishment, the other people who live in this house are not automatically responsible of what their brother/son had done, the people who live in the apartments nearby are not responsible either Olive fields have been destroyed for non-military reasons many times, this is also documented.

discrimination towards Israeli-Arabs
As said before, being able to be elected is not a proof of non-discrimination.
Israeli-arab communities receive less funds than israeli jewish counterparts.
Arabs can't live in jewish settlements
etc...
Go see This report from Amnesty International

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

So what ?

These are INTERNAL MATTERS of a sovereign country.

I don't see why Europe should have a say on Israeli laws which forbid to do [put whatever] during the Sabbath, same thing, I don't see why they should have a say on what Saudi Arabia does on its own territory.

However Europe has a say on what Israel does on an international level, and fact is that on an internation level, Iran, Saudi Arabia and other countries of the region behave much better than Israel.

You don't have to tell me that these arab countries are dictatorships, I know it. That doesn't make Israel's treatment of palestinians any better, and that does not change the fact that Israel is violating international laws while Iran, Saudi Arabia,... do not.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Israel IS a criminal state, you refuse this comparison because you are pro-israeli (and your comment on being anti-semite make me laugh by the way, I don't think I would have gone to two jewish weddings in the last three monthes otherwise)

Israel's crimes are well known, I've given a list in my previous post and everything can be verified easily.

Israel IS a criminal state.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

Your moniker "swissmonkey" is very appropriate :)

First, you should re-read my original response since you continue to perpetrate myths. I will no waste my time repeating the same responses, but will add some other comments.

1. First, ethics and legality are not decided by "majority vote". Otherwise slavery and many other bad things would still be here. Majority vote in a UN dominated by third world despots should hardly be taken as the last word in morality. Perhaps, you blame the Jews in Nazi Germany who tried to disobey the laws putting them in gas chambers.

2. Israel has already withdrawn from more than 95% of the occupied territories. Resolution 242 called for "Withdrawal from occupied territories." The word "the" or "all" was deliberately left out by the drafters.

Also Resolution 242 calls for withdrawal within the context of secure and recognizable borders and an overall peace settlement. Clearly, none of the above exist due to the rejectionish Palestinian front.

3. Morality and conduct under wartime conditions is always a relative condition. Hey I wish that I could shit perfume too. Unfortunately, the business of defending civilians from suicide bombers is sometimes a bit ugly. Again, I challenge you to find one example of any army that behaved better under similar conditions.

4. A lot of things are collective punishment. Here in the US, we often confiscate the boats of drug dealers and the cars of drunk drivers. Is that collective punishment because the rest of the family surely suffers when they lose their cars or luxuries?

Finally, you would be taken a lot more seriously if you put this into some tight of balanced context.

For example if you said something like, "I understand that it must be awful to live in daily fear of suicide bombers etc. Nevertheless, I believe that the Israelis should hold themselves to a higher level than their neighbors etc."

Luckily, though, nobody listens much to Europeans anymore. The Swiss in particular are about as hypocritical as you get. My Swiss "friends" complain about all the foreigners (all 10 of them in the whole country) who are destroying their Christian culture...

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

>You say: your comment on being anti-semite make me laugh by the way, I don't think I would have gone to two jewish weddings in the last three monthes otherwise

That made me a laugh -- you just gave the modern version of old the joke about the anti-Semite saying "but some of my best friends are Jewish"

Then again as I said there is another option, you could just be ignorant

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

First, ethics and legality are not decided by "majority vote". Otherwise slavery and many other bad things would still be here. Majority vote in a UN dominated by third world despots should hardly be taken as the last word in morality. Perhaps, you blame the Jews in Nazi Germany who tried to disobey the laws putting them in gas chambers.

Yes they are, that's what democracy is all about.
And as far as I know, the UN security council who voted the UN 242 resolution is not dominated by despots. France, UK and USA who voted this resolution are democracies.

Israel has already withdrawn from more than 95% of the occupied territories. Resolution 242 called for "Withdrawal from occupied territories." The word "the" or "all" was deliberately left out by the drafters.


Israel has not withdrawn from 95% of the territories, settlements represents more than 5% of the territories.
The word "the" is present in the french version of the resolution, which is the one binding(yes, that's the way the UN works, I also don't know why it's the french one).

Morality and conduct under wartime conditions is always a relative condition
Intifada occured in 2000, during the years before Israel was still building settlements, destroying houses,... This was not war time.

A lot of things are collective punishment. Here in the US, we often confiscate the boats of drug dealers and the cars of drunk drivers. Is that collective punishment because the rest of the family surely suffers when they lose their cars or luxuries?

In USA (where I live), we don't destroy the houses of the neighbours of the dealer not his house.

Don't get me wrong, suicide bombings are horrible things, but they are not more horrible that Israel's attitude towards palestinians.
Israel is just doing terrorism in a different way than the palestinian extremists, and it's been doing it much more frequently.

Oh by the way, in Switzerland, 20% of the population is made of foreign people, and they all have the same rights as we do (except that they can't vote, but this is changing), so you obviously are either lying or ignorant.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

1. Unless you are a moral relativist (which it seems you are), how could morality and ethics possibly be decided by a majority vote of any body, much less the UN?

The Nazis were brought to power by a democratic vote and the Nuremberg laws were passed by the legislature. Does that make them right?

2. The word 'the' is critical to all debates on resolution 242. You should read the memoirs of the US and British negotiators who spent weeks pushing for the exclusion of that word. Plus, last time I looked, Israel had accepted Resolution 242...

3. Israel has indeed withdrawn from more than 95%. You forget of course the Sinai Pennisula which dwarfs the size of the West Bank and Gaza. While it has fewer people, it was of strong strategic importance and had enough oil to make Israel self-sufficient. It was given back 100% down to the last centimeter.

4. We are not talking about the neighbors of terrorists. Exactly how many houses have been intentionally destroyed by the army that either were not terrorist houses or that were not used to shield terrorists? (Believe me, if the US army were there, we would have cleared a 2 mile path in every direction. Have you seen Tora Bora recently?)

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

You say:
Oh by the way, in Switzerland, 20% of the population is made of foreign people, and they all have the same rights as we do (except that they can't vote, but this is changing)

Most people would say that lacking voting and citizenship rights is pretty significant. My father-in-law was born in Switzerland and his father was a successful publisher in Zurich, yet he was never given citizenship so he moved to the US.

80% of the foreigners have been living there for more than 20 years, yet they are denied the basic rights of citizenship and voting.

On the other hand, now I understand why you don't make much of Israel granting full citizenship and voting rights to its Arab population. It means nothing to you since your country denies it!

Switzerland is in my opinion one of the most racist countries in the world. The way Swiss people speak of and treat non-Western foreigners makes the KKK look enlightened.

What other country inspects peoples housekeeping skills before making them citizens lest they bring in some "dirty" habits from their original countries?

Let's not of course forget WWII where the Swiss sat back and made money for both sides and bolted their fronteirs shut while their neigbhors went off to die in concentration camps. Not content with just profiting form ordinary war-trade, they went off and stole the possessions of Holocaust victims.

Oh yes, but you are not anti-Semitic, since you went to 2 Jewish weddings! I heard that many Nazis had Jewish colleagues too before the war.

Why don't you go back to Switzerland and rot with the rest of Continent where anti-Semitism is so deeply ingrained that it seeps out of every rock.

I have a lot more respect for Palestinians than from Eurotrash like you. At least the Palestinians have some grievances and are fighting for something tangible. The Europeans are only in it for the old sport of anti-Semitism. The only wonder perhaps is that it took 50 years for the Europeans to forget the lessons of the Holocaust and start finding excuses to attack Jews.

Why don't you read some of the news stories about how your beloved Aryan Swiss countrymen murdered a Rabbi a couple of months ago just for being Jewish?

Why do synagogues in Switzerland (and much of the rest of Europe) require guards armed with submachine guns? Why are Jews told to hide their Jewishness lest some of the pride-and-joy of Switzerland attack them for just being Jewish?

One could make a good case that it is better to be an Israeli Arab in Haifa (which is a peaceful mixed city with a strong spirit of coexistance) than to be a Jew or foreigner living in Switzerland or France.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

Now you are being inconsistent.

When Saudi Arabia stone adultresses or beheads missionaries or forbids people from worshipping in their religion, that is an INTERNAL matter.

But when Israel destroys houses of terrorists, gives less funding to Israeli Arab communities, or gets tough on terrorists that is not an INTERNAL matter?

At least try to pretend to be consistent :)

Of course, we all know the real truth. The very existence of a strong and independent state of Israel is something that Jew-haters like yourself find very hard to swallow. (By the way, when you went to those 2 Jewish weddings which you are so proud of, did you have to shower afterwards?)

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

...and that does not change the fact that Israel is violating international laws while Iran, Saudi Arabia,... do not.

Really?
Some examples:
- Human rights is part of internation law. Last time I looked stonings, beheadings, freedom of religion, etc. were part of human rights

- Slavery is also a violation of human rights. It still exists in Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries that import black Christian slaves captured as war booty in Sudan

- Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Almost everybody agrees that they are violating it now in their quest for nuclear weapons (NOTE: Israel is not violating internation law here since joining the treaty is voluntary and Israel decided to not join the treaty rather than join it and lie)

- Kidnapping - Saudi Arabia refuses to turn over children kidnapped from the United States in violation of international treaties for the protection of children

- Iran uses child soldiers, another violation of international law

- I also seem to remember a hostage "situation" back at the American embassy which seemed to violate something about the Geneva convention and treatment of embassies.

Need I go on... but then again an anti-Semite can never be convinced by the facts. (oh yes, I forgot, you did go to 2 Jewish weddings -- that almost makes you a rabbi)

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Dumbass.

I'm swiss, but I was not when I was born, some for all my family.

Most swiss people except in the deep country have roots which are outside of Switzerland.

Next time before you talk, learn about what you're talking about, you'll look much less stupid.

Switzerland is on the brink of given voting rights to people who are not citizens, and I don't know many countries who do that actually.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Idiot.

What Israel does on israeli territory is an internal matter.

Destroying houses in occupied territories, building settlements,... is done on occupied territory, not on israeli territory, hence the difference.

Of course, we all know the real truth. The very existence of a strong and independent state of Israel is something that Jew-haters like yourself find very hard to swallow. (By the way, when you went to those 2 Jewish weddings which you are so proud of, did you have to shower afterwards?)

Well, you idiot, tell me where I say that Israel does not have a right to exist.
I'm talking about the territories occupied after 1967, not about Israel and its recognized borders.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Blowing civilians to bits is not more evil than oppressing millions of people for 30 years, destroying their houses, their fields, limiting their supply of water to the profit of jewish settlers, ....

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Human rights is part of internation law. Last time I looked stonings, beheadings, freedom of religion, etc. were part of human rights

True, they're violating this one

Slavery is also a violation of human rights. It still exists in Saudi Arabia and several other Arab countries that import black Christian slaves captured as war booty in Sudan

This is not a state policy, this is forbidden by the state.
This is like saying that because someone raped a woman in France, then France is guilty.

Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Almost everybody agrees that they are violating it now in their quest for nuclear weapons

No, only USA and Israel agree, nobody else does.

Kidnapping - Saudi Arabia refuses to turn over children kidnapped from the United States in violation of international treaties for the protection of children

Wrong, these are bilateral treaties, and I dare to guess that Saudi Arabia does not have one with USA.

Iran uses child soldiers, another violation of international law

Not anymore.

also seem to remember a hostage "situation" back at the American embassy which seemed to violate something about the Geneva convention and treatment of embassies.

Yep, 20 years ago, this was solved

I am talking about what's happening NOW.

Otherwise we can talk about Sabra&Chatila, Canaa, etc...

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

You say: Blowing civilians to bits is not more evil than oppressing millions of people for 30 years, destroying their houses, their fields

By definition, you are then a terrorist.
You are no different from Bin Laden and his gang that said that "Blowing skyscrapers to bits is no different from American soldiers occupying our holy lands."

Of course while "evil" Israel opressed people for 30 years, the Palestinians and Arab countries were just begging for peace. Shame on the Western media for making up all those hijackings, bombings, and wars and blaming it on those peace-loving Arabs.

At first I thought you were just a run-of-the-mill ignorant or anti-Semitic European. Now I know that you are nothing more than another Moslim Terrorist.

Maybe you should share your views with the INS or FBI. If you tell me your identity, I would be happy to forward on your views... I am sure that they are especially interested in Moslim immigrants who support terrorism. Make sure your don't overstay your visa.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

Everybody if you go back far enough has roots somewhere else. Duh!

Switzerland is on the brink of giving voting rights like the MidEast is on the brink of breaking out in peace. Plus, citizenship is way more important.

It should be interesting though when Europe wakes up one day and realizes that they can no longer buy off their Muslim minorities with anti-Israel sentiment. Sort of like when we woke up and realized that the "Peaceful Religion" ain't so peaceful...

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Well, first I should be moslem to be a moslem terrorist.

Second, the american presence in Saudi Arabia has been accepted by Saudi Arabia, so that's not a good comparison.

Third, saying that Israel is as bad as the palestinian terrorists does not make me a supporter of Bin Laden, since I condemn their acts, like I condemn Israel's behavior. You can forward my posts to the INS/FBI/CIA,... they will laugh at you.

Finally, you won't convince anybody by treating all people who disagree with you of either anti-semitic, terrorist or ignorant.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

I never said you were a supporter of Bin Laden. I said your moral equivalence between terrorists and victims of terrorism is equivalent to someone saying there is no difference between bin Laden blowing up the WTC and American foreign policy.

I think it is then not a large logical leap to say that comparing Israel's fight against terrorism and annihilation is equivalent to suicide bombing makes you ignorant, anti-semitic, or a terrorist sympathizer.

Plus "accepted by Saudi Arabia" doesn't hold any water since the fundamentalist world sees all the Arab regimes as corrupt and as American puppets.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

My moral equivalence is perfectly valid.

Israel is a victim of terrorism, but it also commit the equivalent of terrorist acts in the occupied territories.

As for "accepted by Saudi Arabia", well yes it holds water since that's how law decides who's wrong and who's not. The view of the fundamentalists is not important, what's important is who's breaking the law.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[puterguy]

Tell me please, what country wasn't founded on territory that was at one time occupied by someone else?

Israel captured the land fair-and-square in a defensive war. They have already given back 100% of the Sinai. As late as the end of 2000, the Israeli government was willing to give back 100% of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank and all but a 100 feet or so of the Golan. Israel was willing to uproot its own people with a strong historical and religious claim to the land and risk internal conflict all for the sake of a "promise".

Remind me again what other country has been so generous in victory against a sea of enemies who at best promise a cold peace.

I have nothing against discussing individual disagreements with Israeli policies or actions. But your inability to distinguish between Arab terrorists and extremely restrained pinpoint responses makes you into an anti-Semite.

It is precisely this single minded fixation with blaming and hating Jews that is the hallmark of anti-Semitism. Look into your heart for a moment and think about why of all the many truly evil conflicts in the world, you fixate on Israel.

Where is your anger about the *millions* of Sudanese Christians being starved, murdered, and sold into slavery?

Where is your anger about the treatment of women and minorities throughout the Arab world?

What about "occupied" Kurdistan and the 20 million people there without a homeland?

Where is your sympathy for the Bahai's who have been persecuted endlessly by Iran?

Why are you so outraged by one little country the size of New Jersey that has never asked for more than to be left alone and live in peace with its neighbors?

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Why Israel more than the others ?

Probably because the media talk about it more than the other conflicts, so I get to have more information about it, and have an opinion about it.

I certainly think the Kurds deserve to have a country, I find that Turkey had a very similar behavior to Israel these last few years towards Kurds, and mind you, if the native americans decided they want their own country, I would support them.

Israel is not the only one on my list of countries with a disgusting behavior, but it's quite high on the list as its actions have been lasting for decades and are becoming more and more disgusting.

Moreover, I don't see Israel's attitude as an "extremely restrained pinpoint response", I see it as a very violent response to a people who has very legitimate claims and who had ultimately to resort to violence to make its claims heard given the fact that negociation didn't work(need I remind you that during the 10 years of negociation Israel kept building settlements, refusing build permits to palestinians and destroying houses, that's not really a proof of good will).

And as I told you, what Israel claim to have offered to the palestinians will not be considered seriously until the papers are shown publicly to see what it really looked like, palestinians say one thing, the israeli say something else about this so called offer, I don't see why I should trust either side without proof.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Iranian facilities are monitored by the IAEA who has not reported any wrongful use of the facilities monitored.
Iran has accepted to return the spent fuel to Russia.
Iran has signed the non-proliferation treaty.
USA did not provide any clear evidence of attempts by Iran to get nuclear weapons.

So, unless we get proofs of these attempts, I don't see why I should be convinced that Iran is trying to get nuclear weapons.
Moreover, I don't see why Iran should not be allowed to have nukes if USA and Israel are allowed to have them.
I'd be more than happy to have laws forbidding EVERYBODY from having nuclear weapons, but I totally disagree with refusing nuclear weapons to certain countries and allowing others to have some.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

being willing to give up nearly all the "occupied" land that one captured in a defensive war

If only it was true...

They kept building settlements, destroying palestinians houses,... during the negociations, what a proof of good will.
As for this offer, nobody ever saw it and knew what it looked like, so unless we get the papers describing the offer, I will take this as simple propaganda.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[swissmonkey]

Israel is not building on empty land, it is building on palestinian owned land. Moreover, they can call this their historical homeland as much as they want, it is internationally recognized as NOT being an Israeli land.
May I remind you that there are millions of palestinian refugees worldwide, they still own their land.
The land on which settlements are built was extorted from palestinians, they were in most cases forced to sell as they had no other way of surviving when they were not simply deported, their life was made impossible,... All this is well known and documented.
This amount to ethnic cleansing.

As for the israeli version of their peace proposal, there's absolutely no evidence of this, NONE.

The palestinians say that the proposal was for pieces of land separated by pieces of Israeli land, which is totally unacceptable for a viable country.

There's no evidence that what israelis say is true, and there's no evidence that what palestinians say is true.

I don't see why I should believe the israeli version and not the palestinian one, since there's no evidence whatsoever for either side.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[mr100percent]

"But when Israel destroys houses of terrorists, gives less funding to Israeli Arab communities, or gets tough on terrorists that is not an INTERNAL matter?"

Israelis are doing this in Palestinian territories, outside of Israel. Bringing in tanks, soldiers, demolishing houses. Doing this while the UN orders them to stop. Not very internal.

And get it through your head, people don't dislike Israel because they're Jew-haters, as you said, but because Israel has hurt a lot of innocent people. Blowing up an apartment building, killing over a dozen people and children because one terrorist was sleeping inside is NOT a good way to do things.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[mr100percent]

"As late as the end of 2000, the Israeli government was willing to give back 100% of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank and all but a 100 feet or so of the Golan. Israel was willing to uproot its own people with a strong historical and religious claim to the land and risk internal conflict all for the sake of a "promise"."

On Paper, sort of. You're missing the rest of the facts. The areas of land had no real transportation, and were disjointed.

Look at this map, and see how the Palestinians were being cheated with an offer like that.

Re:Why are Europeans so fixated on hating Israel?

[mr100percent]

"Of course blowing civilians to bits with suicide bombs is equivalent to an "attitude towards Palestinians""

In the time of 9/2000-12/2002:
1,715 Palestinians killed by the IDF
318 Palestianians under 18 killed by IDF
20 Investigations into incidents in which Palestians were killed
2 Indictments for Palestinian Deaths

In Comparison:
70 Israelis under 18 killed in roughly the same amount of time

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[superyooser]

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Arabs come from Arabia, and Jews come from Judah (Israel).

There are already 21 Arab states in the world. Israel just wants their little strip of rocky, desolate, oil-barren land the size of New Jersey. Without Israel, the dispersed Jewry has no land on which to make its homeland. Now, which side is greedy for more land?

There are over 1 million Arabs ("Palestinians") who are Israeli citizens. They live, work, and vote as anybody else. They have more freedom in Israel than they would have in any Islamic country in the world.

Jews have a great deal of tolerance and sympathy for Palestinians. But they also happen to believe in the Torah: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." (Genesis 9:6)

Newspaper Headlines in Palestine

[mgblst]

and the rest of the arab world:

"First Israeli in Space...

6.592 million to go."

Re:Newspaper Headlines in Palestine

[puterguy]

Thank you for your insightful comment. Now we have a quantitative way to test whether you are anti-Semitic or just run-of-the-mill anti-Israel.

Do you want all 6.592 million (actually more like 6.1 million) Israelis to be sent into space or just the 80% that are Jewish?

In other words, what should happen to the 1 million or so Israeli Arabs and and couple of hundred thousand Christians?

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[puterguy]

Right on!!!

I have a lot of respect for US fundamentalist Christians.

On the other hand I have very little respect for in-name-only European Christians who wouldn't know morality if it hit them on the head. And those who both now and historically have ignored all the Christian messages of peace.

Here's my question

[Transcendent]

If they're muslum, how do they know which way is East to pray to?

Re:Here's my question

[agurkan]

the important thing is the intention. if it is not possible to determine the direction of Kabe (not East, muslums do not worship sun), then you pick up a direction and then worship in that direction. same with body, if it is not possible to move your body, you can worship with eyes, or only with thought.

Re:Here's my question

[turgid]

They should do all their praying _before_ launch, after all, that's the most dangerous part. In fact, why doesn't NASA employ a load of people representing all of the major world religions to pray for the shuttle's safety before each lift-off?

Re:Here's my question

[mr100percent]

Easy, Muslims pray as best as we can determine towards Mecca (not always east). So we would face Earthwards while doing so. We may not be 100% sure of the direction, but God accepts our prayer if we have the good intentions.

Indian woman in space shuttle too

[Anonymous Coward]

A woman born in India is in the same space shuttle

In case you didn't know - In addition to the Israeli guy, the space shuttle also has a woman who was born in India and now works for NASA like many other people born in India. Her name is Kalpana Chawla and she has been in space before.
Here is her bio on NASA's website
In November, 1996, Kalpana Chawla was assigned as mission specialist and prime robotic arm operator on STS-87 (November 19 to December 5, 1997). In completing her first mission, Kalpana Chawla traveled 6.5 million miles in 252 orbits of the Earth and logged 376 hours and 34 minutes in space. This is her second mission.
Very surprising that the media is covering the story of Israeli guy while they completely ignored her(or not surprising at all, considering that media has been completely oblivious to contribution of Indians in American society which results in ignorant public opinion)!

Re:Indian woman in space shuttle too

[MonTemplar]

Thanks for pointing that out. Hey, can someone mod the above post +1 Insightful, please?

Re:Whats special about israelis being in space?

[KingMeer]

Anti-semite?? Do u know what the hell you are talkin about?? First off "semites" include arabs AND jews. Besides, he didn't mention anything anti-jewish, so calling him a Nazi is hardly legitimate.
If anything, we should be calling you a racist. I am forced to quote from your comment "ISLAMIC PALESTINIAN ASSHOLES". Pick a racist, any racist.
Lastly(before this becomes an arab-jew argument), how exactly are europeans stopping Israel from defending itself?? Have they threatened nuclear attacks? Any air raids recently??

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[veliath]

There are already 21 Arab states in the world. Israel just wants their little strip of rocky, desolate, oil-barren land the size of New Jersey. Without Israel, the dispersed Jewry has no land on which to make its homeland. Now, which side is greedy for more land?

• You mean to tell me if you have
• 21 pieces of silver and someone else has none, he is allowed to grab it from you?
  
  And if you fight him off and he grabs 3 more pieces of silver in a defensive fight he can keep those as well?
  
  And just because his God has proclaimed that he will never starve, it therefore means you must somehow bow to his religion and his beliefs and give up your 4 pieces of silver?
  
  Seriously?

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[norweigiantroll]

Israel isn't trying to take over 7 Arab countries. It's trying to defend it's own.

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[superyooser]

(Small correction: Above I meant to say "Judea" instead of "Judah".)

Thanks for your kind words. I put you on my Friends list.

I assume that you are Jewish yourself? We ("US fundamentalist Christians") remember that ADONAI said to Avram, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." We believe that that last phrase was primarily fulfilled through Yeshua Ha Mashiach (aka Jesus Christ), but the Jewish people have blessed the peoples of the earth in many other ways, too. Their contributions to everything from ethics (through the Bible), medicine, science, the arts, and more is staggering for such a small minority.

May shalom be upon Israel.

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[veliath]

And how did this become its own?

Anyways,when I said 4 - I meant the original 1 and the 3 he grabbed defensively .

The Israelis are building settlements.

The media bias

[Caid Raspa]

This is probably going to be even more off-topic.

The media takes sides, don't forget

I wish more people on slashdot would understand that.

I've lived all over the world, and it's amazing how different the media handles things. Here in the US, it's Palestinians bombing busses. In Europe, it's Israelis shooting houses.

I wouldn't put it that simply. In Europe, the view you get depends on what you read or watch. The media on the left (labour/social democratic) side of the political axis is more pro-palestinian. On the right (conservative) side the opinions seem to be more pro-israel. (The right/left-wing loudmouths seem to be anti-Israel, but no-one listens them anyway).

If you really want an anti-Israel view, you could check for example IRNA (IRanian News Agency).

Does humor impairment hurt?

[jotaeleemeese]

Is it inherited?

Is it CONTAGIOUS!

Jockanese Space Programme

[turgid]

I can't wait for the first Scotsperson to reach earth orbit, amid a fanfare of bagpipes, accordions and fiddles. The tartan of the Black Watch will be worn with pride by said astronaut as she circles the earth at 250 miles up, bag of liquidised haggis in hand being consumed through a straw. As the shuttle passes Edinburgh the Capitol's inhabitants and Scots from all over the world will raise their glasses of Glenmorangie in a toast to celebrate this gloroius achievement. A gigantic Saltire will be floated on Loch Lomond, visible from space. Burns will be quoted. Jimmy Shand will be exhumed and Ricky Fulton will provide the comedy. Oh wait, that's Hogmanay...

Re:And for the Palestinians...

[veliath]

Yeah sure, I'ld love that. Further, if you offered to buy the land from me instead of getting the local mafia don to help you, we could be decent about it.

And its not like the Zionists are poor.

I think the solution to this whole mess is monetary.

Since it was the Zionists and the nations of the UN that made this mess, let them:
1) Ensure that a Palestine with clearly defined borders is created and respected by the Israelis.
2) Have the Zionists and the countries in the UN that voted for the creation of Israel cough up a suitably high value for the land they have "given/taken" and use that as starting capital for the new Palestinian nation and rehabilitation of the Palestinian dispora.

Running around saying the "fat-cat Palestinies don't want us to have a home" by stealing their land is a bit stupid if Israel is expecting to make a bid for some charity.

The Jewish diaspora is rich enough to fund the Zionist dream.

Next up; KKK in space

[jack_n_jill]

In the continuation of the NASA program of "Racists In Space" the next astronaut will be a KKK member. NASA policy is that he must be a KKK member in good standing. That means that he must have murdered a minority. A NASA spokesman said that we must be certain of the caliber of the people that we send into space. NASA is also accepting applications from Ayrian Nation members and skin heads.