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MS Must Ship Java With Windows Within 120 Days

Posted by timothy on from the but-at-least-it's-not-micromanagement dept.

Suppafly writes "Cnet is reporting that a federal judge on Wednesday ordered Microsoft to begin shipping Sun Microsystems' Java with the Windows operating system within 120 days, after the companies fought over implementing a ruling he made last month."

20 of 485 comments (clear)

  1. Its about time by psycht · · Score: 5, Informative

    Its been hell trying to suport end users with our web tool, that is java based, and having to walk them though installing/downloading java from Sun's site.

    --
    thelikesofwhich.com
    1. Re:Its about time by The_K4 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually it sounds like they will be required to put it into XP SP2. Now that's a download/install of it's own, but this isn't just about new installs. Here's the real fun part of this, everytime Sun releases a new JAVA MS will be REQUIRED to include it in the next SP. SO if you don't use java at all, you will still be required to download and in stall it if you want the latest security patches in the newest SP.

    2. Re:Its about time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The version in SP1 is the prehistoric semi-proprietary Java VM that MS stopped shipping a year or two back, with no updates. What they're required to ship is the latest Sun Java VM.

    3. Re:Its about time by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2, Informative


      Remember on a dial-up even a 100 KB file is Pain in the A$$ to download.

      Remember:
      1. Dial-up is obsolete already and "dead". Granted, it will last a long time, but as long as you started the stupid practice of predicting some technology is already "dead" I figured I'm allowed to do the same ;-)
      2. "Java on the client" doesn't have to mean "Java being run for the very first time on the client". After the first time, that 100Kb of jar is going to be cached for a week or so, so
        unless the software's timestamp is actually changed in that time, the subsequent uses won't repeat the download.
      3. Downloading a Jar file isn't any slower than downloading an .EXE file to run a client application. Remember that Java clients are for more than just web stuff. To make a fair comparasin, compare with downloading and installing software client executables, not just non-interactive web pages.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    4. Re:Its about time by catbutt · · Score: 4, Informative

      A couple days ago they supposedly negotiated all the details of this with each other and the judge:

      http://news.com.com/2100-1001-980631.html

      "Both Sun and Microsoft submitted written proposals Monday, suggesting exactly which of Microsoft's software titles would have to carry or support Java, in what timeframe the order would be carried out and other details."

      Apparently all we really know yet is the time frame, not yet the specifics of how it will be installed.

  2. Odd... by somethingwicked · · Score: 2, Informative

    I just installed the Windows version of Opera on a computer this weekend and I am pretty damn sure it gave me the option to install the latest version of Java at that time...

    Am I wrong?

    And if I'm right, is your company just not willing or unable to do the same thing?

    Or are you whining because its not preinstalled by M$? Are there not other platforms that do NOT have Java installed by default?

    I would guess that there are but M$ is the most common OS used by your end users so you run into this most often.

    --

    ---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---

    1. Re:Odd... by Lurker_2k · · Score: 2, Informative

      LOL.

      I've read the settlement quite thoroughly thank you. Have you raed them all? Including the inital one where Sun sued MS for distributing the customized JVM? Sun was 100% in the right on that one. And they deserved that win. Part of THAT settlement allowed MS to distribute their JVM for up to 5 years so as not to leave end users out in the cold. But they couldn't do any more work on it. Ever.

      Microsoft however decided to not distribute it for the full 5 years. Sun cried foul and sensationalized the whole thing with "MS is trying to kill Java!" which wasn't quite the case. MS was simply choosing to not distribute their version for the full 5 years they were allowed. Notice the word "allowed" MS was under no legal obligation whatsoever to distribute their version for the full 5 years.

      Granted, MS could have simply made it so that if someone tried to download their old JVM it would automatically send them to Sun's download page, but they were under no legal requirement to do so.

  3. Do your Homework by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    All of you that "feel bad" for Microsoft need to remember that this is happening because MS broke a binding agreement with Sun.

  4. Re:I don't like MS, BUT ..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's not the same thing. Microsoft makes the OS and the languages that run on them. They're anti-competitive because they make the OS, provide a language to program for the OS AND use this fact to keep other languages from being used to program the OS.

  5. PLease don't start making applets again by MS_is_the_best · · Score: 2, Informative

    I want to make an appeal to all developpers, to let this not be a starting point of making Java applets for the web again!
    The web is actually a lot better now developpers know that ActiveX, Java and full Flash sites have a lot of problems attached. Finally there is some knownledge about (and government pressure for use of) the W3.org principles. Portability and accessibility are beginning to become standards for the web. Furthermore, if you really need more action in your site, Javascript can do a lot.

    Everyone, whatever disabilities or browser they have, should have the right to use the web. (and Java is still not standard in say Lynx, and electronica for blind people will fail seeing the information).

    Java server side is fine, Java for applications is ok, if the application is fast enough or people are willing to wait for it, please please never make applets again...

    So actually if everyone listens to me :-), Java on Windows is not such a big deal...

  6. The difference by mindstrm · · Score: 2, Informative

    Is that they had a contract with sun, which they broke, several ways. They USED to ship java, people use it, depend on it, and it's a PAIN IN THE ASS not having it included.
    They were under contract to keep java in windows... and they broke it.

    If they had a contract with macromedia, and then broke it, they could be made to stick to it as well.

    1. Re:The difference by CVaneg · · Score: 2, Informative
      For those of you who are interested, a press release linking the contract and other relevant documents can be found at Sun's site here

      For those of you more interested in blurbs and sound bites from the article:

      Sun, based in Santa Clara, Calif., claims Microsoft views Sun's Java software as a threat because it can run on a variety of operating systems, not just on Microsoft's Windows.

      Among tactics cited in the lawsuit, Sun alleges Microsoft promoted an incompatible form of Java that worked best on Windows and, most recently, dropped it from Windows XP, which was introduced in 2001.

  7. Re:I feel bad for Microsoft by Coward+the+Anonymous · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hence their coming out with a Microsoft VM which is, on purpose, incompatible with the Sun VM.
    This is simply not true. The MS VM ran 100% Java Compliant code just fine. The thing MS did as add extensions that were specific to its VM. The Visual J++ tool defaulted to using this extensions. Developers who weren't cafeful could end up writting software that would only run on Windows. But to say that software that was written in pure Java might not work on MS VM is a fallacy.

    --
    -- Jason
  8. Re:I don't like MS, BUT ..... by wmshub · · Score: 2, Informative

    In a perfect world, product and businesses live or die based on their own merits. The anti-monopoly laws are an attempt to (among other things) bring reality closer to this hypothetical perfect system. Microsoft has been found to hold a monopoly, and the judge has decided that Microsoft is using its OS monopoly to help .net against java, so instead of .net or java competing on equal footing, .net will have a huge advantage just because it is backed by a company that happens to also have an OS monopoly. The judge's ruling is an attempt to correct for this. It seems pretty fair to me.

    PS - I wasn't quite right when I said that "The judge has decided..."; the trail has barely even started, the judge has officially decided nothing. This ruling is because the judge thinks that Sun will probably win, but Microsoft could use delaying tactics to put off an official ruling until irreparable damage to Sun/Java has been done, so until a ruling comes this will make such delaying tactics less successful.

  9. Re:Too little, too late by enjo13 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Java applets are in widespread distribution on almost every corporate network I've seen.

    AWT is basically deprecated (as the primary GUI system, parts of it are integrated into Swing), and Swing is not 'ugly.' The native look and feel is a bit distateful to a lot of people, but all of my Swing applications look suspiciously like the platform that they run on... So if the default MS Windows look is 'ugly', then yes Swing on Windows is ugly. If the default Aqua look is 'ugly', the same applies.

    You seem to be caught in a circa '97 approach to Java on the network. Applets are not about animating icons or handling the form work that Javascript does well. They are about delivering complex programs that do complex things above and beyond what Javascript can do. In many ways they are very complimentary technologies. There is a definite place for Java on the web (and on the Desktop for that matter)... For example, we've managed to support many platforms by our choice of going with a Swing Java desktop application as support for our Palm apps... With minimal effort.

    --
    Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
  10. Re:I feel bad for Microsoft by sweede · · Score: 2, Informative

    What had happened was Microsoft licensed Java from Sun to include in Windows. However, Microsoft violated the contract by adding in new extensions and other features to the Java VM. Now Sun got all pissed off about that and sued MS and broke their contract saying that Microsoft was frozen at whatever version of java they last modified. Now, along with that, Microsoft dominating the OS market has everyone stuck at Java VM version 1.2 (or whatever) and people dont need to download a newer Java version from Sun.

    So, what does Sun do now?? They sue MS again and order that Microsoft can no longer distribute a Java VM with Windows (XP). But Microsoft has the whole .NET and C# deal, which is a massive compeitor to Java.

    So, what does Sun do this time? They sue MS yet again and order that Microsoft MUST INCLUDE the most recent version of Sun Java with Windows.

    Will Sun ever learn ?

    --
    I follow the SDK and GDN principles.. Spelling Dont Kount, Grammer Dont Neither
  11. Re:I feel bad for Microsoft by revscat · · Score: 2, Informative

    Legally, the only point you make is:

    2) Something about the supposed monopoly that Microsoft has, and how bad monopolies are, so this one should be broken as much as possible.

    This has little to do with Microsoft's monopoly status. The complaint is that Microsoft signed a contract with Sun to distribute a Sun-certified JVM and Microsoft broke both the spirit and the letter of this agreement. They are now being forced to comply, and rightfully so.

  12. The Bigger Microsoft News Today by telstar · · Score: 3, Informative

    I know this may get modded as Offtopic, but it's the bigger news story for both Microsoft and the tech industry today:

    "Microsoft sets dividend, stock split"

    Microsoft is the last of the Dow 30 to start paying a dividend, and paves the way for other tech companies that have held out paying dividends. Should be an interesting morning in trading for MSFT.

  13. Re:MS Java *is not * Java, *and* way outdated by colinleroy · · Score: 2, Informative

    Now, does it look like java to you ? They even tell it's not portable.
    You can also download their SDK, it comes with documentation afaik, have a look at it.

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    blah
  14. Re:What does the judge know about Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Judges aren't trained to know whats best for an operating system.

    They are trained to know when a contractual agreement has been breached, which is what happened. As much as this may hurt your ego, a binding contract takes precedence over your technical opinion.

    You see a problem with a judge forcing a remedy for a company's illegal actions, but you can't see a problem with a company acting illegally in the first place.

    And you accuse others of ignorance?