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MS Must Ship Java With Windows Within 120 Days
Suppafly writes "Cnet is reporting that a federal judge on Wednesday ordered Microsoft to begin shipping Sun Microsystems' Java with the Windows operating system within 120 days, after the companies fought over implementing a ruling he made last month."
Microsoft lawyers may be able to either stall it, get it reviewed, or even get it overturned. That's the way the law works. Likewise, there may be other avenues outside of the Courts that Microsoft may take.
This little penguin doesn't forget favors
Will this mean that MS must fully integrate java into it's operating system? Or can they get away with just shipping either the free download off of the sun site or even just including a link to download it off it the sun website. Will they have to provide support for it over windows update, or do they only have to provide the initial download?
Microsoft, which told Motz on Thursday that shipping Java with Windows was not a simple matter and could harm large corporate users of Windows, is almost certain to appeal--a move the judge anticipated.
Does anyone have details of what Microsoft claims was so hard about installing Java with Windows? Given that Sun already provide a complete Windows installer why can't they do this in 120 days? How could this "harm large corporate users". I know Microsoft are just stalling, but what argument did they put forward to the judge? Clearly it wasn't that convincing...
Sailing over the event horizon
One thing I can't find out from any of these stories is the Java version?
Is MS shipping Java1.4? 1.1? 1.2? Some truncated version of one of the above?
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Bundling Java with Windows won't hurt, but it won't seriously help, either.
.NET.
The web community has overwhelmingly chosen JavaScript for advanced web-based functionality. Java applets are a niche these days, and will most likely remain that way.
Java on the desktop is in sorry shape. You can choose AWT (which is too limited) and Swing (which is too big, slow, and some people think, ugly). It won't be able to compete with the nice native GUIs you get with
I can't think of very many developers who think writing their desktop applications in Java is a good idea. And I can't think of very many JavaScript developers who will switch to Java once Microsoft bundles Java with Windows.
Besides, we're talking about Microsoft. Who here DOESN'T think Microsoft won't taint Java in some way? Raise your hands. I've got a bridge to sell you.
-Teckla
Yes they are competitors but once Microsoft started leveraging its monopoly through illegal business practices its a whole new ballgame. I'm not too upset about this ruling for that reason. Now if Microsoft had never screwed over sun or anything else for that matter, this ruling would definitly be unfair.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
MS has contrtact with Sun to ship Java but they breached it. The judge is ordering them to uphold their end.
No sig, sorry.
Can someone provide a list, or at least a link, describing how the MS implementation of Java was broken?
Joe
http://www.joegrossberg.com
You say that Sun's Java and Microsofts
The problem is, Microsoft cheats. Microsoft is trying to guarentee their win before Sun even enters the ring. Microsoft has gone to court, and the courts have ruled that Microsoft has illegally used their monopoly to their advantage.
Once Java was created, Microsoft realized that if it took off, many programs would no longer require Windows anymore to run. Microsoft then attempted to hijack Java by creating their own incompatible Java VM. Microsoft was using their monopoly to force this incompatible VM onto consumers. Microsoft was trying to use their monopoly to beat out Sun's Java.
Well, AOL didn't try to ship their own version of MSN, try to pass it off as the real MSN, when in reality it wasn't approved by Microsoft. Microsoft tried to ship their own version of Java, pass it off as Java, when in reality it's not truely Java.
Microsoft only forced their incompatible Java VM long enough until they could get
Sun just wants a fair fight. Microsoft wants to kill them before consumers can pick the winner for themselves. Microsoft's trying to set themselves up as the winner before the fight even starts. The justice system was right in saying that Microsoft cannot use their power to force Sun out of the marketplace.
What Microsoft is trying to do is illegal, unethical, unfair and bad for consumers. It's why using a monopoly unfairly is illegal. The government is supposed to help the people and be run BY the people. Microsoft isn't supposed to make choices for us, and it definately isn't run by the people.
No, this is a good thing. Just because the product you (unfortunately) support was not written to use the "real" Java, why should everyone else suffer? What was going on with development there, anyway? I'd take a stab and say that someone called out another buzz-word ("Yeah, I like it, but let's write it in Java!") at the time of design...
If you're going to write a Java program, then you should write it to run in Java. Not MS' "Java". You should know that by not writing to the standard, you'll end up in trouble. It would be like me writing an app to use undocumented APIs, and then whinging when they're changed. If I'd have used what I was given properly, I would not have gotten into the mess, and I would have no-one to blame but myself.
The fact that you have to support a program that was not written correctly is not our fault or problem. Don't get me wrong, I feel for you, but that doesn't change anything.
I don't know, while I didn't read the article....the headline blurb said they'd be required to "ship" it. Knowing Microsoft, that could mean it is in one of those 'extras' folders buried somewhere on the disc. Never installed unless the user digs around to find it!
We'll see...
Actually it sounds like they will be required to put it into XP SP2
It's in SP1 already.
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
Does 'shipping with Java' also apply to including Java on the online Windows Update? If that isn't the case alot of Windows users will still be Java-less by default.
void women (int money, time_t time);
lots of Java applets around the web do not work on the Mozilla/Sun combo, where they do on IE.
That's because the two VMs are essentially incompatible. IE being the de facto standard web browser, most applet writers make damn sure their applet works with MS's JVM first, then maybe, perhaps Mozilla, if they can be bothered.
And although the majority of applets do work on Moz/Sun, the JVM takes frickin' ages to load for the first time.
Well, of course it takes a while compared to the MS one - it's a hell of a lot bigger! Lots and lots of packages have been added to the API since 1.1.4 (the last version that MS released a VM for, iirc), including the entire Collections API (how anyone can write anything worthwhile without that and not tear their hair out I'll never know...)
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Know what's weird? MS basterdized Java always ran quickly and without crashing for me at least, but even Sun's latest version seems twice as slow with everything. Remeber back in the early days of Java and how you "knew" a java page was loading because your browser locked up and your hard drive grinded? Its still the same today.
This isn't necessarily a good thing for sun in short term because it draws press attention to java's failure on the desktop.
However, if microsoft are forced to keep suns latest JRE as part of the standard windows install for a a few years (as the case drags on) then this will be a huge win for Sun.
java has arguably already won the enterprise-server-app war with the entire industry of players oracle,ibm,macromedia,... currently allied versus the beast and will probably win the handheld/mobile battle unless microsoft can defeat sonyErricson, nokia, sharp and palm... Java is currently a huge success everywhere but the desktop.
(aside)
Why has java failed on the desktop.... not just because of the redmond crew but because swing is 'kin huge bloated and considered slow. Swing will always be slow relative to naitive, but I love it because it stays ideologically pure to the spirit of write once run the same anywhere. Its fairly obvious that sun were looking at a 10 year roadmap when they released swing coz its gonna take that long before swing apps run imperceiveably slower than native apps (and no doubt will still look like shit by default). However, a machine shipping with XP today will be able to run swing applications ok.
(/aside)
Its only recent PC hardware that has began to run Swing at an acceptable speed. The timing of this ruling could make desktop java very compelling if it as seamlessly integrated into XP.2003 as it is in OSX
anyways i'm gonna carry on compiling my own p4 optimized sun j2SDK for Linux from source code using gcc3.. "export INSANE=true"woo hoo!
1.Check out photomessa. Its a free (as in beer, the toolkit is under Mozilla Public Licence), small and useful zoomable image browser
2.Install photomessa using java webstart (quick, easy, secure)
3.rethink your java speed prejudices
'Be the change you want to see in the world' - Al Gore
Same with Sun - they had to either get MS to completely abandon any fake Java implemetation, or to ship theirs, which is what happened.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Microsoft already ships Java in Win XP SP1 via Windows Update.
If you did, you would have noticed that it settled all claims between Microsoft and Sun except the antitrust ones. When Microsoft signed off on the settlement, they knew Sun could come back and sue them on antitrust grounds.
Notice the word "allowed" MS was under no legal obligation whatsoever to distribute their version for the full 5 years.
You should read the Judge's opinion to understand his reasoning. When java came out, Microsoft knew it would be a threat to their Window monopoly. However, they had nothing to compete with it. So they entered the contract in order to "pollute" (Microsoft's word, not mine) jave. They added extensions not contained in the spec and their development tools automatically used those extenstions without informing the developers that the resulting code would only work with the windows JVM.
Microsoft achieved their goal. They were able to slow down the adoption of java's acceptence until they couldd come with .NET to compete with Java.
I feel like picking a fight with everyone who thinks they are right. - Rainmakers