Electromagnetic Ship Docking System Debuts

Makarand writes "A system that uses electromagnets for docking ships is getting ready to be tested at a port in the Netherlands according to this article in the New Scientist. Magnetic docking systems were never used in the past as magnetic fields posed dangers to sensitive cargo like TVs and monitors. Researchers at the Delft University of Technology have developed electromagnets whose magnetic fields do not penetrate far into the ship for this special application. The magnets can be periodically switched off and on rapidly to allow ships to rise and fall with the tide."

Comments

Old Kike

[Slashdotess]

When I think of dirty old men, I think of Kike Thomas and when I think about Kike I get a hard on that won't quit.

Sixty years ago,I worked in what was once my Grandfather's Greenhouses. Gramps had died a year earlier and Grandma, now in her seventies had been forced to sell to the competition. I got a job with the new owners and mostly worked the range by myself. That summer, they hired a man to help me get the benches ready for the fall planting.

Kike always looked like he was three days from a shave and his whiskers were dirty white under the brim of his battered felt fedora.

He did nott chew tobacco but the corners of his mouth turned down in a way that, at any moment, I expected a trickle of thin, brown juice to creep down his chin. His bushy, brown eyebrows shaded pale, gray eyes.

Old Kike, he extended his hand, lifted his leg like a dog about to mark a bush and let go the loudest fart I ever heard. The old man winked at me. ÒKike Thomas is the name and playing pecker's my game.

I thought he said, "Checkers." I was nineteen, green as grass. I said, "I was never much good at that game."

"Now me," said Kike, "I just love jumping men. . ."

"I'll bet you do."

". . . and grabbing on to their peckers," said Kike.

"I though we were talking about. . ."

"You like jumping old men's peckers?"

I shook my head.

"I reckon we'll have to remedy that." Kike lifted his right leg and let go another tremendous fart. "He said, "We best be getting to work."

That summer of1941 was a more innocent time. I learned most of the sex I knew from those little eight pager cartoon booklets of comic-page characters going at it. Young men read them in the privacy of an outside john, played with themselves, by themselves and didn't brag about it. Sometimes, we got off with a trusted friend and helped each other out.

Under the greenhouse glass, the temperature some times climbed over the hundred degree mark. I had worked stripped to the waist since April and was as browwn as a berry. On only his second day on the job and in the middle of August, Kike wore old fashioned overalls. Those and socks in his hightop work shoes was every stitch he wore. When he bent forward, the bib front billowed out and I could see the white curly hairs on his chest and belly.

"Me? I just love to eat pussy!" Kike licked his lips from corner to corner then stuck it out far enough that the tip could touch the tip of his nose. He said, A man's not a man till he knows first hand, the flavor of a lady's pussy."

"People do that?"

He winked. "Of course the taste of a hard cock ain't to be sneezed at neither. Now you answer me, yes or no. Does a man's cock taste salty or not?"

"I never. . ."

"Well, old Kike's willing to let you find out."

"No way."

"Just teasing," said Kike. "But don't give me no sass or I'll show you my ass." He winked. Might show it to you anyway, if you was to ask."

"Why would I do that?"

"Curiousity, maybe. I'm guessing you never had a good piece of man ass."

"I'm no queer."

"Now don't be getting judgemental. Enjoying what's at hand ain't beiing queer. It's taking pleasure where you find it with anybody willing." Kike slipped a handside the side slit of his overalls and I could tell he was fondling and straightening out his cock. Now I admit I got me a hole that satisfied a few guys."

I swallowed, hard.

Kike winked. "Care to be asshole buddies?"

***

We worked steadily until noon. Kike drew a worn pocket watch from the bib pocket of his loose overalls and croaked, "Bean time. But first its time to reel out our limber hoses and make with the golden arches before lunch."

I followed Kike to the end of the greenhouse where he stopped at the outside wall of the potting shed. He opened his fly, fished inside, and finger-hooked a soft white penis with a pouting foreskin puckered half an inch past the hidden head.

"Yes sir," breathed Kike, "this old peter needs some draining." He exhaled a sigh as a strong, yellow stream splattered against the boards and ran down to soak into the earthen floor.

He caught me looking down at him. He winked. "Like what you're viewing, Boy?"

I looked away.

"You taking a serious interest in old Kike's pecker?"

I shook my head.

"Well you just haul out yourn and let old Kike return the compliment."

Feeling trapped and really having to go, I fumbled at my fly, turned away slightly, withdrew my penis and strained to start.

"Take your time boy. Let it all hang out. Old Kike's the first to admit that he likes looking at another man's pecker." He flicked away the last drop of urine and shook his limp penis vigorously.

I tried not to look interested.

"Yer sir, this old peepee feels so good out, I just might leave it out." He turned to give me a better view.

"What if somebody walks in?"

Kike shrugged. He looked at my strong yellow stream beating against the boards and moved a step closer. "You got a nice one,boy."

I glanccd over at him. His cock was definitely larger and beginning to stick straight out. I nodded toward his crotch. "Don't you think you should put that away?"

"I got me strictly a parlor prick," said Kike. "Barely measures six inches." He grinned. "Of course it's big enough around to make a mouthful." He ran a thumb and forefinger along its length and drawing his foreskin back enough to expose the tip of the pink head. "Yersiree." He grinned, revealing nicotine stained teeth. "I t sure feels good, letting the old boy breathe."

I knew I should button up and move away. I watched his fingers moving up and down the thickening column.

"You like checking out this old man's cock?"

I nodded. In spite of myself, my cock began to swell.

"Maybe we should have ourselves a little pecker pulling party." Kike slid his fingers back and forth on his expandingshaft and winked. "I may be old but I'm not against doing some little pud pulling with a friend."

I shook my head.

"Maybe I Ôll give my balls some air. Would you like a viewing of old Kike's hairy balls?"

I swallowed hard and moistened my dry lips.

He opened another button on his fly and pulled out his scrotum. "Good God, It feels good to set Ôem free. Now let's see yours."

"Why?"

"Just to show you're neighborly," said Kike.

"I don't think so." I buttoned up and moved into the potting shed.

Kike followed, his cock and balls protruding from the front of his overalls. "Overlook my informality." Kike grinned. "As you can see I ain't bashful."

I nodded and took my sandwich from the brown paper bag.

"Yessir," said Kike. "I just might have to have myself an old fashioned peter pulling all by my lonesome. He unhooked a shoulder strap and let his overalls drop around his ankles.

I took a bite of my sandwich but my eyes remained on Kike.

"Yessiree," said Kike, "I got a good one if I do say so myself. Gets nearly as hard as when I was eighteen. You know why?"

I shook my head.

"Cause Kikeep excerising him. When I was younger I was pulling on it three time a day. Still like to do him every day I can."

"Some sayyou'll go blind if you do that too much."

"Bull-loney!" Don't you believe that shit. I been puling my pud for close to fifty years and I didn't start till I was fifteen."

I laughed.

"You laughing at my little peter, boy?"

"Your hat." I pointed to the soiled, brown fedora cocked on his head. That and his overalls draped about his ankles were his only items of apparel. In between was a chest full of gray curly hair, two hairy legs. Smack between them stood an erect, pale white cock with a tip of foreskin still hiding the head.

"I am one hairy S.O.B.," said Kike.

"I laughed at you wearing nothing but a hat."

"Covers up my bald spot," said Kike. "I got more hair on my ass than I got on my head. Want to see?"

"Your head?"

"No, Boy, my hairy ass and around my tight, brown asshole." He turned, reached back with both hands and parted his ass cheeks to reveal the small, puckered opening. "There it is, Boy, the entrance lots of good feelings. Tell me, Boy, how would you like to put it up old Kike's ass?"

"I don't think so."

"That'd be the best damned piece you ever got."

"We shouldn't be talking like this."

"C'mon now, confess, don't this make your cock perk up a little bit?"

"I reckon," I confessed.

"You ever seen an old man's hard cock before," asked Kike.

"My grandpa's when I was twelve or thirteen."

"How'd that come about?"

He was out in the barn and didn't know I was around. He dropped his pants. It was real big he did things to it. He saw me and he turned around real fast but I saw it."

"What did your grandpa do?"

"He said I shouldn't be watching him doing that. He said something like grandma Ôwouldn't give him some,' that morning and that I should get out of there and leave a poor man in peace to do what he had to do."

"Did you want to join him."

"I might have if he'd asked. He didn't."

"I like showing off my cock," said Kike. "A hard-on is somethng I always been proud of. A hard-on proves a man's a man. Makes me feel like a man that can do things." He looked up at me and winked. "You getting a hard-on fromall this talk, son?"

I nodded and looked away.

"Then maybe you should pull it out and show old Kike what you got."

"We shouldn't."

"Hey. A man's not a man till he jacked off with a buddy."

I wanted to but I was as nervous as hell.

Kike grinned and fingered his pecker. "C'mon, Boy, between friends, a little cock showing is perfectly fine. Lets see what you got in the cock and balls department."

In spite of my reluctance, I felt the stirring in my crotch. I had curiositythat needed satisfying. It had been a long, long time since I had walked in on my grandfather .

"C'mon let's see it all."

I shook my head.

"You can join the party anytime, said Kike. "Just drop your pants and pump away."

I had the urge. There was a tingling in my crotch. My cock was definitely willing and I had a terrible need to ajust myself down there. But my timidity and the strangeness of it all held me back.

Hope you don't mind if I play out this hand." Kike grinned. "It feels like I got a winner."

I stared at his gnarled hand sliding up and down that pale, white column and I could not look away. I wet my lips and shook my head.

Old Kike's about to spout a geyser." Kike breathed harder as he winked. "Now if I just had a long finger up my ass. You interested, boy?"

I shook my head.

The first, translucent, white glob crested the top of his cock and and arced to the dirt floor. Kike held his cock at the base with thumb and forefinger and tightened noticably with each throb of ejaculation until he was finished.

I could not believe any man could do what he had done in front of another human being.

Kike sighed with pleasure and licked his fingers. "A man ain't a man till he's tasted his own juices."

He squatted, turned on the faucet and picked up the connected hose. He directed the water between his legs and on to his still dripping prick and milked the few remaing drops of white, sticky stuff into the puddle foming at his feet. "Cool water sure feels good on a cock that just shot its wad," said Kike.

***

"Cock-tale telling time," said Old Kike. It was the next day and he rubbed the front of his dirty,worn overalls where his bulge made the fly expand as his fingers smoothed the denim around the outline of his expanding cock.

I wasn't sure what he had in mind but I knew it wasn't something my straight-laced Grandma would approve of.

"Don't you like taking your cock out and jacking it?" Kike licked his lips.

I shook my head in denial.

"Sure you do. A young man in his prime has got to be pulling his pud."

I stared at his caloused hand moving over the growing bulge at his crotch.

"Like I said," continued Kike, "I got me barely six inches when he's standing up." He winked at me. "How much you got, son?"

"Almost seven inches. . ." I stuttered. "Last time I measured."

"And I'm betting it feels real good with your fist wrapped around it."

"I don't do. . ."

"Everybody does it." He scratched his balls and said,"I'll show you mine if you show me yours." Then, looking me in the eye, he lifted his leg like a dog at a tree and let out a long, noisy fart.

Denying that I jacked off, I said, "I saw yours yesterday."

"A man has got to take out his pecker every once in a while." He winked and his fingers played with a button on his fly. Care to join me today?"

"I don't think so."

"What's the matter, boy? You ashamed of what's hanging Ôtween your skinny legs?"

"It's not for showing off."

"That would be so with a crowd of strangers but with a friend, in a friendly showdown, where's the harm?

"It shouldn't be shown to other people. My Grandma said that a long time ago when I went to the bathroom against a tree whan I was seven.

"There's nothing like a joint pulling among friends to seal a friendship," said Kike.

I don't think so." I felt very much, ill at ease.

"Then what the fuck is it for," demanded the old man. "A good man shares his cock with his friends. How old are you boy?"

"Nineteen almost twenty."

You ever fucked a woman?"

"No."

"Ever fucked a man?"

"Of course not.

"Son, you ain't never lived till you've fired your load up a man's tight ass. "I didn't know men did that to each other."

"Men shove it up men's asses men all the time. They just don't talk about it like they do pussy."

"You've done that?"

"I admit this old pecker's been up a few manholes. More than a fewhard cocks have shagged this old ass over the years." He shook his head, wistfully, "I still have a hankering for a hard one up the old dirt chute."

"I think that would hurt."

"First time, it usually does," agreed Kike. He took a bite from his sandwich.

I looked at my watch. Ten minutes of our lunch hour had already passed.

"We got time for a quickie," said Kike. "There's no one around to say, stop, if were enjoying ourselves."

He unhooked the slide off the button of one shoulder-strap, pushed the bib of his overalls down to let them fall to his feet.

"Showtime," said Kike. Between his legs, white and hairy, his semi-hard cock emerged from a tangled mass of brown and graypubic hair. The foreskin, still puckered beyond the head of the cock, extended downward forty-five degrees from the horizontal but was definitely on the rise.

I could only stare at the man. Until the day before, I had never seen an older man with an erection besides my grandpa.

Kike moved his fingers along the stalk of his manhood until the head partially emerged, purplish and broad. He removed his hand for a moment and it bobbled obscenely in the subdued light of the potting shed. Kike leaned back against a bin of clay pots like a model on display. "Like I said, boy, it gets the job done."

I found it difficult not to watch. "You shouldn't. . ."

"C'mon, boy. Show Kike your peckeer. I'm betting it's nice and hard."

I grasped my belt and tugged on the open end. I slipped the waistband button and two more before pushing down my blue jeans and shorts down in one move. My cock bounced and slapped my belly as I straightened."

"That's a beaut." Kike stroked his pale, white cock with the purplish-pink head shining. "I'm betting it'll grow some more if you stroke it."

"We really shouldn't. . ."

"Now don't tell me you never stroked your hard peter with a buddy."

"I've done that," I finally admitted,. "But he was the same age as me and it was a long time ago." I though back to the last time Chuck and me jerked each other off in the loft of our old barn. Chuck wanted more as a going away present and we had sucked each other's dicks a little bit.

"Jackin's always better when you do it with somebody," said Kike. "Then you can lend each other a helping hand."

"I don't know about that," I said.

Kike's hand continued moving on his old cock as he leaned over to inspect mine. "God Damn! Boy. That cock looks good enough to eat." Kike licked his lips. "You ever had that baby sucked?"

I shook my head as I watched the old man stroke his hard, pale cock.

"Well boy, I'd sayyou're packing a real mouthful for some lucky gal or guy." He grinned. "Well c'mon. Let's see you get down to some serious jacking. Old Kike's way ahead of you."

I wrapped my fist around my stiff cock and moved the foreskin up and over the head on the up stroke. On the down stroke the expanded corona of the angry, purple head stared obscenely at the naked old man.

Kike toyed with his modest six inches. "What do you think of this old man's cock?" His fist rode down to his balls and a cockhead smaller than the barrel stared back at mine.

"I guess I'm thinking this is like doing it with my grandpa."

"You ever wish you could a done this with your grandpa?"

"I thought about it a lot."

"Ever see him with a hard-on."

"I told you about that!"

"Ever think about him doing your grandma?"

"I can't imagine her ever doing anything with a man.

"Take my word for it, sonny, we know she did it or you wouldn't be here." Begrudgingly I nodded in agreement.

"Everybody fucks," said old Kike. "They fuck or they jack off."

"If you say so."

"Say sonny, your cocks getting real juicy with slickum. Want old Kike to lick some of it away?"

"You wouldn't."

Kike licked his lips as he kept his hand pistoning up and down his hard cock. "You might be surprised what old Kike might do if he was in the mood for a taste of what comes out of a hard cock."

And that is what he proceded to do. He sucked me dry.

Then he erupted in half-a-dozen spurts shooting out and onto the dirt floor of the potting shed. He gave his cock a flip and shucked t back into his overalls. He unwrapped a sandwich from its wax paper and procede to eat without washing his hands. He took a bite and chewed. "Nothing like it boy, a good jacking clears the cobwebs from your crotch and gives a man an appetite."

***

The following day, We skipped the peliminaries. We dropped our pants. Kike got down on his knees and sucked me until I was hard and good and wet before he stood and turned.

"C'mon boy, Shove that pretty cock up old Kike's tight, brown hole and massage old Kike's prostate.

Kike bent forward and gripped the edge of the potting bench. The lean, white cheeked buttocks parted slightly and exposed the dark brown, crinkly, puckered star of his asshole "Now you go slow and ease it along until you've got it all the way in," he cautioned. "This old ass craves your young cock but it don't want too much too soon. You've got to let this old hole stretch to accomodate you."

"Are you sure you want to do this?"

"Easy boy, easy," he cautioned. "You feel a lot bigger than you look. Put a little more spit in your cock."

"It's awfully tight. I don't know if it's going to go or not."

""It'll go," said Kike. "There's been bigger boys than you up the old shit chute."

I slipped in the the last few inches.. "It's all in."

"I can tell," said Kike. "Your cock hairs are tickling my ass."

"Are you ready," I asked.

"How are you liking old Kike's hairy asshole so far?"

"It's real tight."

"Tighter than your fist?"

"Might be."

"Ready to throw a fuck into a man that reminds you of your grandpa."

"I reckon."

"I want you should do old Kike one more favor."

"What?"

While you're pumpin my ass, would you reach around and play with my dick like you would your own? Would you do that for an old man?"

I reached around and took hold of his hard cock sticking out straight in front of him. I pilled the skin back amd then pulled it up and over the expaded glans. I felt my own cock expand inside him as I manipulated his staff in my fingers. I imagined that my cock extended through him and I was playing with what came out the other side of him.

"C'mon, boy, ram that big cock up the old shitter and make me know it. God Damn! tickle that old prostate and make old Kike come!"

I came. And I came. Kike's tightened up on my cock and I throbbed Roman Candle bursts into that brown hole as I pressed into him. His hairy, scrawny ass flattened against my crotch and we were joined as tightly as two humans can be.

"A man's not a man till he's cum in another man." said old Kike. "You made it, boy. But still, a man's not a man till he's had a hard cock poked up his ass at least once."

Every time I think of that scene, I get another hard-on. Then I remember the next day when old Kike returned the favor.

I never have managed to come that hard again. If only Kike were here.

8441

Re:Old Kike

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you were plowed repeatedly by your Daddy growing up, and decided to create a story out if it. Still licking his balls after Sunday dinner, you sick little fuck?

Re:Old Kike

[olly the limey]

let's try to keep the gay porn to a minimum on the public boards.mmmkay.

asshole

I HATE GOD yes yes oh oh yes yes yes yes oh oh yes

[Anonymous Coward]

I HATE GOD, HE HAS A FUCKING KNOB THAT GOES INTO YOUR ARSE

yes yes oh oh yes yes

and fuck YOU. :-]=[

yes yes oh oh yes yes

joo == tex sux

[Anonymous Coward]

thank you very much

I don't get it

[ajuda]

I mean, wouldn't it be cheaper (and easier) to use a chain and combo lock? They could have all the locks use the same combination (like 1-2-3). It might take a bit longer to unload each container, but things would hardly ever break, and the technology would be very cheap.

Re:I don't get it

[Anonvmous Coward]

"It might take a bit longer to unload each container, but things would hardly ever break, and the technology would be very cheap."

I don't think this technology would be interesting to people if it wasn't worth the costs involved. Have you ever watched a ship dock? It's long laborous, and involves lots of people. There's lots of room for accidents to happen. If they could just pull up, flip a switch, and be attached to the dock, it'd definitely be worthwhile.

So so far I see safety, speed, simpler docking proceedures. Good?

Don't get me wrong though, you do have a point, it'll take a while for it to be adopted. But it isn't hard to imagine that the ability to use EM locks without harming cargo is very interesting.

Re:I don't get it

[VoidEngineer]

Mostly, the chain and combo lock doesn't address the issues which electromagnetic mooring systems do. There are a lot of factors involved with a project like this, including sway, roll, and yaw of the boat, which chains and locks don't handle. The chain and lock system acts like a yo-yo or a swing, in so far as two objects are attached together by a string. The electromagnetic mooring system acts like, well, a refridgerator magnet does to a refridgerator.

FP

[handybundler]

Fourth or Fifth Post.

BAD PUN ALERT

[Anonymous Coward]

Electromagnetic ship docking systems are very attractive.

Re:BAD PUN ALERT

[goatasaur]

We can't let them replace dock workers just because they have magnetic personalities!

Re:BAD PUN ALERT

[Anonvmous Coward]

"We can't let them replace dock workers just because they have magnetic personalities!"

Are you kidding? Most dock workers are bi-polar.

Re:BAD PUN ALERT

[goatasaur]

Well, I guess they're fluxed no matter what.

Re:BAD PUN ALERT

[qnonsense]

God, these jokes are repellent.

Re:BAD PUN ALERT

[goatasaur]

Maybe you should learn how to conduct yourself on Slashdot.

Some people respect the gravity of this situation!

hm....

[bafu]

I wonder if the points where they plan to mount all of the electromagnets are going to up to the job... it doesn't seem like they would have been designed for stress in that direction.

Re:hm....

[MBCook]

I'd imagine that as long as you attached to where there is a bulkhead on the other side of the hull, you'd be fine. They may not have been designed for force in that direction, but I doubt that there would really be enough force to worry about.

If this works...

[girl_geek_antinomy]

If they can make this work, then it sounds great - I'd be concerned about the risk to the ship's own electronics, though, as much as to its' cargo. Computerised navigation systems, and the like, and ship-wide systems whose wiring well run very near, or even along the inside of the hull... Neat idea, and one that may well send the internationnal rope-manufacturing industry into decline - after all, who else needs four inch diameter hemp ropes in this day and age...?

Re:If this works...

[Anonymous Coward]

after all, who else needs four inch diameter hemp ropes in this day and age...?

Errm... Don't know about that, but in Holland they have better uses for hemp...

Re:If this works...

[Anonymous Coward]

after all, who else needs four inch diameter hemp ropes in this day and age...?

Japanese Sumo porn stars?

Re:If this works...

[VoidEngineer]

Hmmm, don't need to worry too much about that.

I'm fairly sure that the force of the magnet decays exponentially with distance, so the magnet's field shouldn't extend too far into the ship. Also, fiber optics shouldn't be affected by the EM interference, so as long as the ship-wide wiring is run over fiber optics, things should be OK. (Fiber optic enabled routers on bridge, engine, and network closets; many manufacturing and production plants which have to deal with EM interference use fiber optics, so I'd suspect that cargo ships might use similar solutions to similar problems.)

As far as who needs 4" hemp ropes... uh, Woody Harrelson for a retrofit of the Cheer's pub?

Scene from Cheers 2:

Woody: Arr! I'm a pirate!
Norm: Hey! Give me some of the stuff he's havin!
Fraiser: Oh, what an excellent opportunity to study the affects of canaboids on socio-psychotic behavior!
Cliff: Shut up and pass the pipe.
Diane: I don't know if I like the color green... oh, my! That is green!
Sam: Hey, lock the damn doors! (bubble, bubble, gurgle)

Re:If this works...

[NeoSkandranon]

I doubt it. The people of Holland are probably smart enough to know that you would likely die from smoke inhalation before you smoked enough hemp to get you high. (Hemp is the male plant, FYI. Smokable herb comes from the female.)

Re:If this works...

[brokenwndw]

In free space, at least, and reasonably far from the source, static magnetic (and electric) fields always decay as 1/r^n for some n. People write the field at a distance r from a magnet in what's called a "multipole expansion":

B = [messy coefficient] (1/r^3) + [messier coefficient] (1/r^4) + ...

Unless the coefficient of the first term is zero, then, very far from the source the rest of the terms become negligible and the field drops off as the inverse cube (becoming a "magnetic dipole field"). (For electric fields the leading term is 1/r^2, not 1/r^3. This is because there are electric monopoles but not magnetic monopoles.)

The trick, then, and what these guys have presumably done, is to make the field really huge close to the magnet (using all those terms in the ... there) but to zero out or minimize the components that reach far away (i.e. the 1/r^3, then the 1/r^4 if you can, etc.)

(Disclaimer: yeah, yeah, this doesn't take into account matter in the way, and the magnetic field is a vector. But that doesn't change the basic idea.)

The magic of flux return

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, iron loves to carry those magnetic fields.

where is this being used/could this be used?

[no reason to be here]

I can imagine this tech being great for mid-air and outer space docking situations? is this kind of technology in place for such applications already?

Re:where is this being used/could this be used?

[VoidEngineer]

I think so. The specs don't specify the details, but I think that the Mobile Servicing Station, provided by Canada, uses electromagnets within the Base System and the Dexterous Manipulator.

Here's more info on Canada's robotic hand/arm thing. It's like a crazy robotic slinky/robot arm which doesn't have a shoulder. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it uses electro-magnets, but I can't find any direct mention of the coupling mechanism it uses.

Re:where is this being used/could this be used?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just another example of Canadian technological superiority

-Scud_the_disposable_assassain

Re:where is this being used/could this be used?

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, doesn't the ship have to be made from something that's magnetiseable? Like steel?

Who makes spaceships out of steel?

(Okay, really strong fields could induce magnetism in less magnetic materials, but we're back to damage caused)

So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[MacAndrew]

Seriously, in the U.S. we just recently had a paralytic dockworkers' strike. I don't think they'd be amused by this labor-saving innovation. Not that I think people should be kicked out of jobs by robots.

Each of their mooring magnets generates a 1-tesla magnetic field. (from NS article)

WOW! That's strong. I used to work with a 1.5-T superconductor magnet, an MRI scanner, and it had a heck of a pull. Enough so that people have been injured or killed when a piece of metal got loose. It took three of us to pull off the base of an IV pole (no one inside at the time). Some of the research magnets are 4-T or more. But these are all superconductors, and act like permanent magnets. The resisitive magnets here must produce tons of heat while gobbling electricity. Surely "auto-dock" wouldn't be too hard to design., with mechanical restraints?

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[girl_geek_antinomy]

Seriously, in the U.S. we just recently had a paralytic dockworkers' strike.

Paralytic? Really? They all went off and got so trashed they couldn't come into work? Kewl! Where do I sign up...?

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[JaredOfEuropa]

"Seriously, in the U.S. we just recently had a paralytic dockworkers' strike. I don't think they'd be amused by this labor-saving innovation. Not that I think people should be kicked out of jobs by robots"

They were already striking yesterday! ;-)

(That was about the EU allowing non-skilled workers to work at the docks though. Heh... "sharing the wealth" somehow doesn't apply when it is their wealth". Of course they are just looking after the membership, but I wish they'd just say that, instead of always giving us that tired line that they do things for the greater good)

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[carlhirsch]

I expect the ILWU won't give a good god-damn about how the ship is moored as long as they are the ones who run the equipment, handle the cargo coming off the ships, and they're the ones who handle the clerical work. It was actually clerical and back-office jobs that triggered the recent strike. And no, they weren't opposed to technology, they simply wanted to make sure the minds and hands behind the technology had union cards.

One reason the ILWU had become such a powerful, well-paid union is the fact that when cargo got container-ized rather than loose-packed, they embraced change and took payouts for the workers displaced by the new equipment.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Not that I think people should be kicked out of jobs by robots.

Except possibly pusher or shover robots.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[tpengster]

Seriously, in the U.S. we just recently had a paralytic dockworkers' strike. I don't think they'd be amused by this labor-saving innovation. Not that I think people should be kicked out of jobs by robots.

Back in the 80's, the Japanese started using robots to build cars. Here in the US the Auto Workers Union, afraid the robots would replace American jobs, wouldn't allow the manufacturers to use them. Now the Japanese technology is far ahead of ours and the Japanese have a competitive advantage.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[ryanvm]

Not that I think people should be kicked out of jobs by robots.

Why not? Automation is a good thing. Do you think that we should still be using switchboard operators and elevator attendants? As the level of automation in the world increases, the total amount of manual labor that mankind must perform decreases. Ideally, we should get to the point where the only work we're doing is maintaining/improving the robots.

Besides, if these magnetic docking systems put a few longshoremen out of work, so what? Is it really such a terrible thing that they better themselves and learn a new trade?

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am pretty sure most electromagnetic devices for this sort of application only draws current to neutralize their magnetic field, i know they do that for electromagnets on cranes at demolition yards so they dont accidentally drop things on top of people because they accidentally lost power

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[f97tosc]

Not that I think people should be kicked out of jobs by robots.

Why not? Why put the interests of a few (the small minority of people with 'traditional' industry jobs) before the common good of the many (who will enjoy higher standards of living with increased automization).

WOW! That's strong. I used to work with a 1.5-T superconductor magnet, an MRI scanner, and it had a heck of a pull. Enough so that people have been injured or killed when a piece of metal got loose

This is a fair point, but one should keep in mind that what is dangerous is intrinsic to the powers necessary to pull a large ship. A more traditional solution probably involves powerful winches, which of course can pose risks if a cable snaps or somebody gets a hand in the wrong place.

Tor

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[JoshRoss]

Robots are a serious threat to our way of life; robots eat old people's medicine for fuel and they have metal arms and hands that are much stronger than our own fleshy hands and arms!

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Anonymous Coward]

The article disagrees. Please read it before posting.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it really such a terrible thing that they better themselves and learn a new trade?

Are you serious?? learn a new trade??? Did it occur to you that most trades starting wage is not nearly enough to support a family? I worked as an electrician, and yes, I was part of a union, and starting wage was a measly $11.00 CANADIAN!! so, lets see, 11.00/hr * 2000 hrs = $22,000 per year. and at a wage increase of 20% per year, and a Journeyman rate of $22.00/hr, it takes you your 4 years to make it up to your wage of $44,000/yr. Chew on that, dumbass.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[ryanvm]

So it's society's responsibility to ensure that you don't get bumped off your gravy train?

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[serutan]

"I expect the ILWU won't give a good god-damn..."

You could be right, but I doubt it. My wife has a relative who used to tie up ships at San Francisco Bay. His salary was higher than mine (I'm a programmer), and his job consisted primarily of being on call. When his beeper went off he would go down to the dock, loop a rope over a capstan and return home. I'll grant that he was pretty much on call 24-hours a day, but he only worked one or two of those hours.

It doesn't surprise me that the shipping industry would like to eliminate these jobs. But I doubt that a union that has held on to them for so long will give them up without a fight, or without getting something equally lucrative in return.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[BrianH]

To be entirely fair, there's a good reason why dockworkers get paid more than programmers...when was the last time you heard of a programmer getting killed doing his job. That rope he's looping over a capstan is attached to a very large, very heavy ship that's rocking with the swells and tide, and shifting as loads are added or removed. One wrong move and that rope could easily crush a person, or snap and cut someone in half. It may be a job anyone can do, but it's also one that you've got to risk your life for.

Well, until now anyway ;-)

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Saeger]

Ideally, we should get to the point where the only work we're doing is maintaining/improving the robots.

That's a pretty weak ideal future; humans slaving away oiling up their robot master so it can build Nike's 7% faster. :)

Ideally, we'll get to the point where advancing robotics, nanotechnology, and IA & AI, will result in the technological unemployment of just about everybody on and off Earth. And just when society is getting used to the idea of an economy of unimaginable abundance, the next shockwave will hit.

--

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Mac Degger]

That would be a nice ideal (I've thought about it also), if it weren't for the fact that then you'd have to deal with a huge dumb mass of people not doing anything. These are the people who don't know what to do with themselves on a sunday, except drink themselves silly. We need menial labour just to keep people like that occupied...they can't do anything high level (like programm, tech support, designinging new engines or what have you), so it'd low level work or idleness. And idle hands...

My guess is that even if they'd have nothing to do and have their food, housing clothing etc taken care of, they'd still be unhappy. People are just that irrational.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[sjames]

dumb mass of people not doing anything.

"What will the slaves do?" was the reason the Roman Emperor gave for not permiting the development of steam engines!

Something will need to be done to allow for the transition to a society with no need for manual laborers, but stunting the growth of technology isn't it.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Havokmon]

To be entirely fair, there's a good reason why dockworkers get paid more than programmers...when was the last time you heard of a programmer getting killed doing his job. That rope he's looping over a capstan is attached to a very large, very heavy ship that's rocking with the swells and tide, and shifting as loads are added or removed. One wrong move and that rope could easily crush a person, or snap and cut someone in half. It may be a job anyone can do, but it's also one that you've got to risk your life for.

Working for a company that has many products made overseas, I can say they are the worst example of a union that I can think of. Well, unless you work for them. During the recent strike the unions were offered the following: Minimum $110k per worker, 100% medical coverage, no jobs lost due to technology. Oh, and they refused it.

There are people there STILL doing paper manifests, while the rest of the world starting using EDI in the 80's. Nope, Not the major ports in the U.S., they're unionized.

IMHO, They're a huge wart on the world economy.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[RodgerDodger]

That was about the EU allowing non-skilled workers to work at the docks though. Heh... "sharing the wealth" somehow doesn't apply when it is their wealth". Of course they are just looking after the membership, but I wish they'd just say that, instead of always giving us that tired line that they do things for the greater good

Well, I'll like to see you volunteer to work with heavy equipment when you know that your neighbour doesn't know how to steer that forklift he's using...

It's one thing for union members to insist on only union workers. It's a very different thing for them to insist that all workers be suitably trained and certified.

Re:So what does the dockworkers' union think?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ideally, we'll get to the point where advancing robotics, nanotechnology, and IA & AI, will result in the technological unemployment of just about everybody on and off Earth. And just when society is getting used to the idea of an economy of unimaginable abundance, the next shockwave will hit.

Some of us will still need car attendants, live entertainers, teachers, waiters, maids, prostitutes, wives, etc. Human contact is still a human need.

THE MOON...

[an unoriginal troll]

IS A RIDICULOUS LIBERAL MYTH!

1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[VoidEngineer]

So, at work, I work with a 1.5 Tesla magnet (Gyroscan Intera... used for nuclear magnetic resonance imaging; VMS/VAX/Solaris Operating Systems). Price tag on the thing is about $1M, which makes me wonder:

1) Did this docking system actually cost only $50M? At $5M a year, is a 10 year return on investment reasonable?

2) Is it actually Helium/Nitrogen cooled? We have to have a dedicated coolant system for our magnet to work at 1.5 Tesla. Moreover, what happens if a magnet breaks? They're not going to vent 2,000L of Helium, per magnet into the ozone, are they? (52 magnets = 100,000L total of liquid Helium)

Re:1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[Anonymous Coward]

THE LAMENESS FILTER'S DEAD.

Re:1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[bmwm3nut]

your cryomagnet is cooled because the magnet itself is a superconductor. that way, all you need to do is pump a bunch of electricity into the magnet, cool it, and turn off the electricity and the current runs forever and you have a permanent magnet. the ones in this artilce are switched to allow for the tide (and to allow the ship to undock), so they can't be permanent supercondicint magnets, so they are probably not cooled to liquid helium temperatures. but this does bring up an interesting point, without the supercondicing magnet, these are going require a whole bunch of power to run, don't know if it's giong to be economical in the long run.

Re:1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[Vellmont]

They're not going to vent 2,000L of Helium, per magnet into the ozone, are they? (52 magnets = 100,000L total of liquid Helium

Into the Ozone? helium is the most non-reactive element their is. It doesn't do anything to the ozone, and already makes up a small percentage of air. I think some chemists might have finally got it to form a compound a few years back at some enormous temperature/pressure. It may be dangerous in terms of how cold it is, but it's certainly no danger to the environment if released. I'm sure the source of helium in the first place is removing it from the air.

Re:1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[St. Intrope]

They're not going to vent 2,000L of Helium, per magnet into the ozone, are they?

What does it matter? Other than wasting Helium, their isn't any environmental hazard from venting Helium or Nitrogen. Nitrogen's just air, after all and Helium's almost totally inert.

About the only danger I can think of is that if 2000L of Liquid Helium (or Nitrogen) is that anything it falls on is going to flash-freeze. Given that it's over water, you could just sell'em as fishsticks, I guess.

Re:1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not going to vent 2,000L of Helium, per magnet into the ozone, are they?

Yeah sure, why not? Check out the periodic table: helium is in with the noble gases for a reason, it's almost completely inert. Furthermore it's quite light so when something bumps into it, the helium goes shooting off at a large velocity, expelling it to the very outer atmosphere (above the ozone layer, not that it matters).

Re:1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, according to this page, helium is a byproduct of natural gas production. From memory, the helium is the result of alpha decay of uranium and other radioactive elements in the earth's crust. The helium is trapped by the same geologic structures that trap natural gas.

Re:1.5 Tesla Cryomagnets

[jman11]

That and it'll mess round with everyone's voice in the area.

Imagine the scene with 40 big burly guys hulking ropes around, trying to moor the boat the old way after a critical leak. All the while screaming at each other in those voices, hell this scene alone almost justifies the project.

c'mon guys, be more creative with the name

[theflea]

2. Invent electromagnetic ship docking system 3. Call it a tractor beam! 4. Profit!!!!

One Problem

[Arc04]

Methods of Securing Ships:

Lots of Ropes:[Initial Cost: £10,000, Ongoing Cost: £0 (near enough)].
Electromagnets:[Initial Costs £50,000, Ongoing Cost: £1000s/month]

I think the problem is obvious here :)

Arc

Re:One Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

um, what about the dock workers, Even Slaves need some food and a housing??

Re:One Problem

[DJayC]

Actually the article stated that the costs were in _labor_. The "ongoing cost" of mooring a ship with ropes ( the traditional way ) is exactly what they are worried about, and it definitely isn't a cost of 0.

From the article:
"..they say the system could save them around 5 million Euro a year in labour costs.."

Re:One Problem

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Methods of Securing Ships:

Lots of Ropes:[Initial Cost: £10,000, Ongoing Cost: £0 (near enough)].
Electromagnets:[Initial Costs £50,000, Ongoing Cost: £1000s/month]

I think the problem is obvious here :)"

So... what are the costs saved in getting ships docked and undocked faster, much fewer people involved to moor the ship, and the increase in safety that'd likely result from it?

Re:One Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I fear that you seriously underestimated the likely cost of the magnetic system. The article states that 52 magnetic modules will be used plus a backup power supply.

Presuming a likely cost of something in the neighborhood of $5K per module (no reason to think they'll be any cheaper - this is after all, a 1-T magnet) plus another $5K-$10K per module to install (gotta tear up some bulkheads and find a way to attach the modules, tear up a parking lot and run electrical wire) plus another $50K for a backup diesel-powered 50KW generator (that's only one 1KW per module which is probably low), plus you gotta put the mooring out of service for a couple of weeks to do this with a probable lost business value of unknown size.

Intemize installation costs:
52 modules X $5K equals $260K plus installation of $260K to $520K plus backup power source $ 50K
Total: $570K to $830K
On-going costs:
50KW power 6cents/KWH $2160/month plus backup power maintenance $ 200/month plus magnet modules inspection/maint.$1000/month
Total: $3360/month
First year cost:
Installation: $570K to $830K
Maintenance: $ 40K $ 40K
Total: $610K to $870K

Now, hawsers are both more expensive and shorter-lived than you suggest, but the ROI this idea is still probably in the 10+ years - and by then you'll probably have to install new magnets and start over. A bad idea altogether.

Re:One Problem

[VoidEngineer]

I dunno. I work with 1.5T magnets, and I think they're talking about much bigger ports and mooring systems than that.
At the very least, according to the cost of medical grade 1.5 Tesla magnets, your initial costs for the electromagnet system could be off by as much as a factor of 1000. (1 Tesla magnets can cost a cool $1M each, with computer systems, real estate infrastructure upgrades, and all. And they're talking about a 52 magnet system.). My guess:

Electromagnets: [Inital Costs: $50,000,000; Ongoing Costs: $100,000 per year]
Lots of Ropes: [Initial Costs: $100,000; Ongoing Labor Costs: $5,000,000 per year (for 200 dock workers)

Five years down the road, the investment pays off real big.

But I don't know that for a fact.

Re:One Problem

[Mac Degger]

I don't agree...look at most any project, and you'll discover that the mayority of the cost is in personel; people cost a lot of money, above and beyond just the money you pay them (think cafeteria, insurance, etc). Plus I think that you need about 5-10 people to moor a ship (but that I don't know).

Also, how do you put a cost on human life?

Re:One Problem

[sploxx]

Why are you always talking about these "expensive 1 tesla magnets"?
It is easy to get > 1.5 T out of conventional electromagnets (much current, cone shaped poles, water cooling).
But the area where the magnetic flux density (translated that from german - is that the right word) is that high, is very small...
It's more about the area you want these strong magnetic fields...

Dockworkers Response

[limekiller4]

From the article:
"Mooring a ship can be a time-consuming, labour-intensive affair in which dock workers grab ropes hurled from the deck of the incoming ship and secure them to the dockside."

I've never been one decry progress because it'll put some people out of work, but this does have the potential to unemploy a whole crapload of people over the not-so-long term.

I wonder how the dockworkers union is handling this?

Re:Dockworkers Response

[WindBourne]

Probably like they did on USA's wast coast. They will strike. But this will make it be installed much faster.

One of the problems with unions have been that they fight against any new labour savings devices. Yet, they would do better to fight for jobs promotion to other positions such as tech work on the mags.

Re:Dockworkers Response

[limekiller4]

WindBourne writes:
" One of the problems with unions have been that they fight against any new labour savings devices. Yet, they would do better to fight for jobs promotion to other positions such as tech work on the mags."

I thought of that but, afaik, unions are not structured like this. The Dockworkers Union represents dockworkers, not what dockworkers will eventually become if they go with the (possibly delayable but inevitable) technical advance. So there is no incentive. Their only option is to stall.

I'm not saying I agree with it. Painters got pissed about cameras because multi-day portraits became a decidedly unattractive option in comparison. Progress marches on with very little notice or concern for who it steps on. I'm not lamenting it so much as wondering, from a societal standpoint, how they're coping. Or maybe even learning from past union mistakes.

Re:Dockworkers Response

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Quite frankly, after the last strike, I hope this puts as many of them out of work as possible. Breaking the Dockworker's Union's grip on a large portion of our economy would be a tremendous boon. Striking right before a holiday... didn't gain them any sympathy from me at all.

Electromagnetic Ship Docking Systems

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a beowulf cluster of these!

Re:Electromagnetic Ship Docking Systems

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, my credit card/atm card/ect. doesn't work any more...

That question answers itself.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can expect that it won't be accectped in the US anywhere in the near future.

Except...

[girl_geek_antinomy]

...Ropes don't last forever.

Power failure?

[tstoneman]

What do you do in the case of an extended power failure? I know they probably have diesel backups, but even those only last so long.

At least living in the Bay Area with all the uproar about the "Energy Crisis" a couple of years ago, this may not be the most reliable system if you had to rely totally on electricity to dock all those boats up there in Oakland....

Re:Power failure?

[DJayC]

If this thing works, and they decide to keep using it, I'm willing to bet they will keep ropes around in the event of a power outage. There is always a failsafe.

Re:Power failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

The real problem is not in having a ship moored with ropes, but in getting ropes from the ship.

Once moored, nothing is easier than throwing a line and having your backup.

Powerfailures in the Netherlands used to be extremely rare. I'm 38. I can remember four powerfailures. There might be one I missed, but no more. They also tend to last short. 30 minutes to 4 hours. They're privatizing the electricity-sector, which used to be state-run, so the rate of powerfailure is going up, but is still no way like America. Let alone California.

Re:Power failure?

[MrLint]

Assuming that there was an extended failure ther really woudl be bigger issues thanthe dockingsystem, like the cranes and the computer systems and etc etc etc

Re:Power failure?

[jman11]

Bigger issues than several thousand tonnes of boat floating away and into god knows what?

OK, I'm sure they will have ropes, but I think you are downplaying the consequences of a mooring system failing.

Re:Power failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

No Problem, they got a great deal on some slightly used APC UPS units.

Re:Power failure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dammit Jim im a doctor not a longshoreman!

Hrmm, nice idea

[spikedvodka]

This sounds like a nice idea, I wonder, can I build an electromagnetic mount for my mountain bike now? or would I have to pay royalties?

But seriously, how much power is that going to draw? escpecially once they have a whole bank of them? and what's going to happen to the already, electricity strapped california when they start putting in banks of them?

Umm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article?

this is about docking the ship, not locking.

Danger!!

[Anonymous Coward]

lets just hope no one on any of the ships has any percings.

But it would be interesting to see what happened when they power it up.

1) The guy(or gal) gets all the piercings torn out of their body.

2) They just fly off the deck of the ship and hit the electromagnet face first.

Wouldn't this magnetize the hull

[TerryAtWork]

And cause trouble down the road?

Is that true?

[Anonymous Coward]

./oooOOOooo\.
.|_________|.
.( O ) ( O ).
.\ = \ / = /.
..| . U . |..
..\___O___/..

............. Why does it keep telling me I'm using caps? I know it's like yelling, jerk. Look! A cat!

Into the ozone?

[autopr0n]

They're not going to vent 2,000L of Helium, per magnet into the ozone, are they?

Erm, what exactly would be the problem with this?

Re:Into the ozone?

[candover]

Erm, what exactly would be the problem with this?

Regarding the ozone, none that I can think of - but helium is expensive (about $5.50/liter), and a non-renewable resource, since it's light enough to dissipate from the atmosphere into space. Also, the only useful source of helium at the moment is natural gas deposits that are unusually rich in the stuff; there's so little of it in the atmosphere, and it's such a pain to liquefy (4.2 Kelvin!), that condensing it out of air is infeasible.

I assume that they're doing no such thing, though. Non-superconducting NMR magnets are available to at least 2 Tesla, presumably they're using similar designs.

Re:Into the ozone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Every one suddenly sounding like Alvin and the Chipmunks?

Doc worker Anti-Technology policy

[www.2cups.com]

This technology seems like it has a great chance to increase dock worker safety. Sadly we can be sure that the Long Shoremans Union will violently opose this due to their lost negotiating power.

Re:Doc worker Anti-Technology policy

[Anonymous Coward]

Just make sure they all bring some metal objects to the meeting, and suck them up using one of these giant magnets ;-)

Not as usefull

[mlknowle]

I've spent several years working as a dockhand for large yachts (100-200 feet). While these boats arn't as big as the tankers and cargo ships which will utilize the magnet system, the manuvering and handleing is similar. Dock lines are not just used to hold the ship once it is in position to the dock - they are also used to manuver the vessle as it is docking (for example, a line will be thrown from the front of the ship, made secure, and the ship will power against it to bring the back of the ship into the dock). Obviously, the magnets wouldn't work at this range (50+ feet)

Methinks docking lines might be a bit cheaper too - and when properly set, only slight adjustments need to be made for the tide.

What would be very cool to see is the magnet start attracting someone's belt loop or a leatherman out of someone's pocket standing nearby... wow

Re:Not as usefull

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't believe this kind of maneuovering is as feasible or practical on large vessels - instead, big boats have bow thrusters and possibly other smaller manoeuvering props (and transverse thrust). But I don't know for sure - I've only ever worked on smaller ships, and indeed, we did use bow and stern lines for positioning. It would have been pretty near impossible to bring a boat alongside without them.

Equipment cost for lines is low - where things add up is labour, I believe.

Do the boats you work with have bow thrusters?

A solution looking for a problem

[NumberGod]

You've never going to save 40 minutes.

This is just a solution looking for a problem, and I'll predict that it'll never ever be used.

I live at a port in New Zealand (just outside Christchurch actually) and often watch the ships docking. My father used to tie them up. If I look to my left, I can see about a half-dozen ships out my window.

The majority of the 40 minutes that the article quotes, that it takes to berth the ship, is the tugs turning, and pushing the ship to the wharf. That's the thing with ships, they have a big propeller at the back, which pushes them forwards, and they can't move from side to side. They do have a rudder, but it's not designed for more than a few degrees of turning, you can't use it to dock. (I'll stay away from bow thrusters for now)

Basically the process goes like this...

A Pilot (who works for the port, and is an expert in the local navigation/conditions of the port) is taken to the ship on a small launch, and meets it several miles from the harbour.

The Pilot then commands the vessel, until it's tied up at the wharf. (s)he co-ordinates the ship, tugs, and wharf staff who, at the end of the operation drop the ropes over the bollards.

Securing the ship with the ropes takes about 5 minutes on a slow day, getting the ship alongside the wharf takes about 35 minutes. The thing with ropes is, that...

1) They're proven. They've been using them for thousands of years.
2) It's a standard system, used all over the world.
3) It's simple, never underestimate this.
4) it copes well with varing weather and tides.
5) You still need ropes to tie between the tugs and the ship.

Now, as I said before, you've going to save about 5 minutes per berthing? Your damage costs are going to far outweigh the costs of any savings.

And, what happens when the power goes out?

The ship floats away, probably onto rocks.
Backup Generators? Yeah sure, a diesel generator is going to hold a ship with 4-8000 shipping containers alongside a wharf, is bad weather, and an especially high tide, with no outages.

I'm sorry, but there's no way this would ever work.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[seann]

I live near the welland canal (Niagara Falls, Ontario. Canada, st lawerence sea way)

I could see this work in a practical situtation for ships passing through docks, to keep them steady, drag them in or some jazz.

Maybe thats what they're doing this year for maintenance!

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[VoidEngineer]

Fair enough. But what happens if you're docking a cruise liner, a naval destroyer, or a cargo super-ship? What about an aircraft carrier? As I understand, docking those things can take days. I suspect those 40 minutes are actually used just in the mooring of such a ship.

Also, as I was posting elsewhere on this thread, the cost of 1 Tesla magnets is high... as high as $1M per magnet, what with the computer systems, the liquid helium and liquid nitrogen costs, the concrete reinforcements, and all.

So, how do you explain the $20M to $50M price tag of this project? I don't think somebody would spend that kind of money for 52 new 1 Tesla magnets (which the article also quotes) if they weren't doing anything other than docking cruise liners, cargo super-ships, naval destroyers, and aircraft carriers.

And if they're using 1 Tesla cryomagnets (which is common for that field strength), it doesn't neccessarily matter if the electricity goes out... the superconductor keeps the magnetic charge. Hell, if they're docking things like aircraft carriers and cargo super-ships, I wouldn't be surprised if they found reason to spend $500,000 on the liquid helium costs alone, per ship, in order to go through a complete power up and power down of the cryomagnets before and after the ships dock. Actually, if they're docking any nuclear powered vehicle, such as submarines, destroyers, or aircraft carriers, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were using cryomagnets.

(FYI: It takes 2,000L of Helium per magnet, which costs about $5 per Liter, for a $10,000 cost per magnet, in terms of Helium alone. This works out to about $520,000 for the 52 magnets. But, then again, they may not be using cryomagnets. All they said was that they were 1 Tesla magnets.)

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[jman11]

If it takes you 2 days to move a ship to port, who cares about the 40 minutes it takes to tie it up? It's a tiny saving 40 minutes in 48 hours.

There are other problems of having 1 Tesla magnets. They attract shit, you are going to have to make sure any ferrous metals are nowhere near the magnets at any time during docking, loading and all that. What about the affects on the boat, sensitive equipment, etc. Also the possibility of magnetism the hull (uhh - captain we're still pointing north) and other problems.

It's a bad idea, I can't believe someone got funding for it. Yeah, sure ropes are primitive and simplistic. But if you are going to go to all this effort to save, maybe, an hour then I am going to say it's a waste of time.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[Fastolfe]

No offense to you personally, but I'm seeing a lot of the same comments from a lot of different people.

First of all, this is an experiment.

Second of all, they seem to have convinced a lot of people in positions they probably got by knowing what they're doing that this has the potential to save a lot of time and money. Please concede at least the possibility that this might actually happen or at the very least, your uneducated concerns might have already been addressed by the educated.

Stop for a minute and repeat to yourself: I do not run a major ocean port. I do not run a major ocean port.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[Chris Hiner]

Actually, all of the big cruise ships I've dealt with (mostly Carnival) have at least bow and stern sideways thrusters, and the really big one have pivotable main thrusters. They can do things like turn in place.
When your business involves docking every day or every other day, you come up with things make it easier.

If you ever get to tour the bridge on a Carnival Holiday class boat, check out the "docking windows" in the floor at the outside ends of the bridge. They're in the part of the bridge that hang out over the side of the ship, and have a set of thruster controls in front of each one, so you can see 10 decks (130 some feet) below to the water, to park it.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[dieman]

Yeah, the docking 'pods' on the Fascination are damn cool. The side thrusters are something to be heard on the last morning of sailing when your trying to sleep at 5am, though.

Crusing rocks.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[thewheeze]

Repeat to yourself : if it ain't broke. don't fix it.

Now, it's not my money, but meh.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[Mac Degger]

An hour saved on each ship that docks is HUGE!!! savings in a year. Remember, we're talking about one of the (if not /the/) biggest shipping harbour in the world. These aren't pleasure yachts, these are the largest containerships on earth. If you have had any experience with logistics, you'de know that an hour saved on something which happens so may times each day, every day of the year adds up to large increases in throughput, and thus in profit.

As for the 'problems' you forsee...do you REALLY think they haven't been adressed? They'll make sure that the electromagnetic field is shaped, that it's (eventually) going to be cheaper (that's what cost/profitability studies are for) and that it doesn't affect the GPS system. Just as an example: if they hadn't already stated that they'd ensured the cargo wouldn't be affected by their new system, would /you/ have thought of that?

Also, most ship's hulls are already under an electromagnetic influence: to halt corrosion, there's a block of metal called the "selfssacrificing metal" (direct dutch translation). What this does is have a different electrovalence than the hull, to ensure that the metal of that block is corroded instead of the hull. So who cares about "magnetising the hull"...it's already done, and won't affect the navigation in the slightest.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[jman11]

Read my post and the parent properly, we aren't talking about saving 1 hour per ship.

You have a lot of faith in scientific/technological research don't you? Read about all the incredibly stupid things that have been done. The chemists who achieved nuclear fusion, the mambo chicken, etc.

Re your last paragraph: the problem is even more serious then, you will spoil this already existing magnetism.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[Mac Degger]

Ok, so you save 10 minutes per ship...still adds up. As for faith in scientific/technological research; yes I do. It's what allows me to type this into a computer in the first place.

Sure, there have been dumb things, but for example nuclear fusion will happen. Basic research must be done. And this isn't just basic research, this is application.

As for that last bit: *thump*. That was the sound of my head hitting my desk. I was talking elctrovalencies...which won't change. Pick up a mechanical engineers handbook, once upon a time, please.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[jman11]

I misread your point about the electrovalencies part, true my point is completely nonsensical. It is true, magnetising the hull might not be a serious problem.

It just seems like an overly complex solution to what is not a difficult problem. How are we going to attach these massive ships to the dock. How about giant electromagnets? The benefits appear only incremental, but seem to be quite expensive. These magnets are surely going to eat alot of juice and be expensive to begin with.

My problem with fusion is that two chemists claimed that they could do it. I agree fusion will one day be possibe, whether it will be useful I don't know, but thee two claiming they could do it was really bad.

Re:A solution looking for a problem

[Fastolfe]

Thank God this attitude doesn't prevail.. else we'd still be throwing rocks or shooting arrows at each other and living in adobe huts and caves.

SHOW US YOUR TITS!

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

Good for oil tankers

[jhines]

While the magnetic field would be bad for general cargo, something like oil wouldn't, so this could be used quite easily at an oil terminal.

Re:Good for oil tankers

[MrLint]

well i was thinking about this with the article there, magnetic fields can be shaped by other magnetic fields and electrical fields. I have no idea if thats how they are doing it .. but you can actually get a great deal of control with these systems.. look at your TV.. that electron beam is control by a combination of electric (E) and magnetic (B) fields, working at right angles. IAMANE (i am not a naval enginneer) however 2 things occur to me, 1) the ships isnt filled wall to wall with cargo, cant be or it woudlbe a floating box (which dont sail thru water very well) and also 2) the 'control points' where one would normally hook/rope/chain a ship tothe dock (i think) would be likley to be reinforces to handle the stress cause by the motion of the ship vs the fixed point of the harbor. I dont see a technial reason why this all cant work. logistics.. well that remains tobe seen.

New for big ships, but not for small

[stefanb]

This probably is new for sea-going ships, but for ferry-like ships and boats, where the stay will be only a few minutes, magnetic systems have been in use for quite some time.

Although I can't find any technical details from Google, the Alsterdampfer in Hamburg, Germany, have been using a magnetic system for at least 30 years (no snide comments about my age, please). In this image, you can see the magnets as the black-faced buckles on the side, just above the waterline.

For this to work, the side of the jetty is plated with steel plates for the magnets to hold on to; depending on the skill (or inclination ;-) of the captain, the boat can be tucked towards the jetty quite violently...

Re:New for big ships, but not for small

[Deadstick]

I'm pretty impressed by the system they have on the passenger boats on the Rhine. They have no screws, as such. There's a single vertical drive shaft that sticks down through the hull amidships, and rotates a horizontal wheel. Blades much like those on an aircraft propeller extend vertically down from three points on the wheel, so they rotate somewhat like an eggbeater. A system of levers and bellcranks varies the pitch on the blades as they go around, and by setting the levers you can apply a torque in either direction and/or a translational force in any direction, independently. You can run forward like an ordinary boat, spin in one place, or move sideways into a dock at will.

Those boats make passenger stops every two or three miles, and it doesn't take up much more time than a bus stop.

rj

Canadians, read this!!! Save Patty Sullivan!

[ylikone]

On Friday, January 10th, 2003, Patty Sullivan - beloved, longtime host of
TVOKids and numerous educational shows for young people - was fired by TVO.
The dispute is over a supposed breach of contract: Patty began hosting a
new show for the W Network and TVO views this as a conflict of interest.
The Canadian Media Guild, which represents the TVOKids hosts, claims that
there was no conflict of interest and that she was unfairly "dismissed".
They have filed a grievance on her behalf.

Please check out http://savepatty.isfoundhere.com/
(don't forget to sign the petition)

Just asking...

[pjt48108]

Has anyone considered the potential for such systems being used to trigger proximity-type sensors? I can imagine few more convenient ways to make terrorism easier than by employing large magnets like this and waiting for the fun to arrive.

I am not studied in such areas, but can't one just place a sensor near the docking point and tell it to make something go boom when it detects such a magnet on the hull? It's not as though there are other such magnets being used at the same hull contact points, which might confuse such a strategy.

I'm only asking...

Re:Just asking...

[lommer]

I'm thinking that it would be easier to get some guy to release several bags of nails/washers/ball bearings which would go zooming towards the magnet at really high speeds - completely irrespective of anyone or anything that gets in their way.

Re:Just asking...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, get over it already. Whenever some technological innovation is produced these days all you guys can think is "how will the terrorrists use it?"

But really, that's such a crap mindset. If you stop innovating because of mindless, irrational fear, it means the war between you and the terrorrists is already over (and you've *lost*).

The thing with terrorrists these days is this: they do not rely on advanced technology. Sure, they could probably build a gadget that detects magnetism and uses it to detonate a bomb, but why bother? Just attach a conventional bomb to the ship at your convenience, and use a simple radio detonator to explode it when you feel like it. Simple, cheap, easy, effective. Just what today's terrorrist needs.

Re:Just asking...

[Mac Degger]

Oh, wow...did you know that cars run on combustible gasoline? Or that powerplants have large electromagnets? Or that everyone has a cellphone which transmits a signal every time you get called? Or that....get the point?

Who cares!? You have terrorists on the brain...at least the Irish and British didn't overreact.

Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[RockyMountain]

I'd worry about permanently magnetizing the hull.

Sure, there won't be enough residual that it sticks to other passing ships, or anything, but what about interference with magnetic compasses.

I had a steel-tube frame airplane, and it got so magnetized from arc welding that the mag compass was totally useless. No amount of swinging could correct the compass deviation. Nor did it help to replace the mag compass with a new one. I ended up degaussing the whole fuselage with a degauss coil designed for TV sets, and never had the problem again.

But I can't see doing that on the scale of a container ship!

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[cybermace5]

Ships routinely have degaussing coils run along the inside of the hull.

The earth's magnetic field tends to magnetize a ship over time. During the second world war, torpedoes and mines used magnetism as one method of detecting that a ship was near. The magnetism would also mess with the compasses, of course. Large ships, lacking degaussing coils, would routinely go back to port and dock in a way that used the earth's magnetic field to gradually cancel out the ship's magnetism.

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

As a matter of fact, the "Philadelphia Experiment" the alleged cloak/teleport experimentation that was done on a US Naval Vessel (was it during WWII or after?) was actually a test of a degaussing system, apparently, one meant to be used on large ships in dock.

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[iggymanz]

Do commercial freight ships even use magnetic compasses any more....I've seen them in museums, with the large iron balls to compensate for the hull of the ship....but I thought the norm nowadays was gyroscopes and GPS???

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[RockyMountain]

Do commercial freight ships even use magnetic compasses any more..

No first-hand knowledge, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't use them.

At least in aviation, the general philosophy is that instruments can get as complex and sophisticated as you like, but the basic "fallback" low-tech instruments must be present to use when all else fails, and they must be routinely checked for functionality even if they are hardly ever used.

For an airplane, that's altitude, airspeed, and magnetic compass. (And others if IFR). I don't know what the list would be for a container ship or supertanker, but I'd bet it includes a low-tech magnetic compass.

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[iggymanz]

I did some reading, and yes, they indeed do still use them, and they of course still have a system for "compensating the compass" for cancelling magnetic effects of the hull. There is a profession called a "professional compass adjustor", which commerical & naval vessels often employ, one company I was reading about had even adjusted the magnetic compass aboard USS Nimitz, Captain's Nautical Supplies

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[Brane2]

Actually, you need field of certain strength to cancel residual magnetism. And after holding the ship with magnets so strong, the "degauser" would have to generate considerable field. But all this seems moot, becuse degausing could be done with holding electromagnets themselves moment after releasing the ship. Just after release they would have to aply decaying, alternating filed-like degausing coil in your monitor...

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[Ian Peon]

Speaking as a former US Navy sailor stationed on a Destroyer: Yes and no.

You see, the Navy is still very concerned about how magnetic their ships are. There are many munitions with magnetic sensors. After a yard period - when a ship has a lot of welding done to it - the degaussing cables need to be run across the entire ship encasing it in a huge net.

As a practical note - doing this is a major pain in the ass. I've gone through it twice. When they need to run all those cables over (and under) the ship, it's the ships crew that are doing all the backwork. (and that's ALL the ships crew - I was an Electonic Warfare specialist - pulling cables). It also takes a couple of days to get all the cables in place. I lost a couple of weekends to these operations.

Now, it sounds to me like this new system will put MUCH more magnetism into a ship than just the earth's background field. Perhaps they've devised a way to cancel any effects (maybe, reversing the field several times a second?) But I'd bet that enough residual would be left over that would require degaussing operations much more often than normal.

My bet is the US Navy wont do anything like this anytime soon. Especially to save the last few minutes of time while tying up.

Re:Residual magenitsm of the hull?

[hachete]

Merchant ships tend not to worry about degaussing - not that much equipment to worry about.

Merchant ships carry a Magnetic compass as spare - this is balanced by 2 huge ferrous balls either side. Navigation is done by gyrocompass, radar and satellite navigation.

The standard way for modern ships to dock is to use self-tensioning winches. The wires on these reels haul in and out as the ship rises.

I can't see either of these proposed methods working well with a berth that has a large rise-and-fall. Also, merchant ships tend to rise and fall as cargo is shifted - this is a doddle with self-tensioning winches, but with ropes, you have to keep a constant watch. To allow for rise-and-fall, the system becomes more complex: a lot more prone to breakdown.

I also foresee problems trying to dock against one of these things. The ship will have to motionless - harder than you think with high-sided 28000 dwt ship running light trying to berth against a running tide. Something like those huge roro ships. I'd be interested in watching, for sure.

As to the magnetism in the ship - um, I don't know. My guess would be that it might affect the wear rates of the hull. Used over a period of time, these might - or might not - be benificial. A ship moving through water has a chemical reaction with the water - even given modern paint systems - and modern ships have sacrificial anodes which wear first (something called ionisation takes place - this is from memory; the last time I steppped on a ship was 20 years ago). What effect these huge coils will have over a large period of time is unknown.

I believe a magnetic docking system was described by Frank Herbert in "Dragon Beneath the Sea"

conversions

[pummer]

5,000,000 Euros = 5,335,000 USD
Storm force 12 = 80 knots = 92 MPH

Re:conversions

[Anonymous Coward]

FreeBSD 5.0 is out now, why don't you go learn something useful?

Now if only they would use this technology...

[Anonymous Coward]

...to invent a state-of-the-art detention facility to hold _children_ in place with magnets!

Reply to Everyone: Helium

[VoidEngineer]

Yes, I know that Helium and Nitrogen are mostly inert. As Vellmont points out elsewhere in this thread, Helium is the most inert element there is.

I agree that there isn't much of a chemical hazard with the Helium or Nitrogen, in regards to chemical reactions. Perhaps my wording was a bit off there, in regards to 'ozone'. I suppose that I'm a bit more concerned with work accidents and thermodynamics, than I am with ozone and atmospheric reactions. Given my training with 1.5Tesla magnets, I can envision accidents happening with human workers getting freeze-burns when a magnet gets hit with a fully loaded cargo ship, and explodes... splashing liquid Helium on everybody. That would be a quick way to ruin your day.

At work, they make a big deal about not "breaking" the cryomagnet by releasing the Helium. It's got an emergency release valve which vents the Helium in case an accident occurs. I'm told that stuff can cause really bad burns.

Also, there's a question, in terms of economics, if a magnet breaks. The emergency button on our 1.5 Tesla magnet has, of all things, a warning sign which states 'Refueling of the magnet is very costly.' My thinking is that if I were to ever press that button, and somebody's life wasn't very much in danger, I'd get a meeting with my directors real quick-like, regarding why it's going to cost them $10,000 to refuel the magnet.

Anyhow, seems to me like there are some practicle issues which need to be sorted out. It's going to probably cost $500,000 in liquid helium costs alone, just to power the thing up.

Ah well... Seems like a neat project to me.

Risk to video and audio tapes, hard drives...

[Walt Dismal]

I'd be leery of potential damage to cargo like shipments of videotapes, hard drives, and anything else sensitive to static or pulsed magnetic fields.

Re:Risk to video and audio tapes, hard drives...

[Anonymous Coward]

that was the point of making it a small field. (or rather, a narrowone that doesn't extend into the ship itself) If you would have read the article, then you would know that they had already thought of this and corrected it. (hopefully)

-Scud_the_disposable_assassain

Re:Risk to video and audio tapes, hard drives...

[Walt Dismal]

Yup, I did read it, but one of my unvoiced concerns is that a 1 Tesla field is only the final steady state value. When you pulse current into an inductor or turn off current, in any real-world system it is not a pure inductance, and often ringing occurs. When that happens, the instantaneous values of the (presumably damped though ringing) current could hit higher peaks. I don't know what pulse levels may occur, what EMI induced effects may occur, etc. The external docking electromagnets could induce currents in the hull that couple inward.

Re:Risk to video and audio tapes, hard drives...

[eam]

I didn't read the article, but I did read the summary, where it said:

"Magnetic docking systems were never used in the past as magnetic fields posed dangers to sensitive cargo like TVs and monitors. Researchers at the Delft University of Technology have developed electromagnets whose magnetic fields do not penetrate far into the ship for this special application."

We want the tits

[Anonymous Coward]

please?

It's been done-

[paiute]

The Navy tried this using the USS Philadelphia, but the field was too strong, and the ship disappeared. It came back later filled with drunken Eagles fans.

Re:It's been done-

[Anonymous Coward]

Singing "in the navy" (village people), of course.

Plug and play

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not install big "plugs" in the front of the vessels, which can fit in big holes mounted in the docks? Think about your mother and your father having sex to figure out how it could work.

Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's replace time-proven, reliable, cheap, classical "rope and metal mushroom" technology with complex electronics and computers!
After all, we have to find "jobs" for all the engineering graduates that the cults pump out!

Military vessels will never use this.

[MyNameIsFred]

Navies spend a lot of time and money making sure that their ships have small magnetic signatures -- magnetic triggers are common in undersea mines. Somehow slapping a few big magnets on the side of a ship everytime it docks doesn't seem like a good idea.

Re:Military vessels will never use this.

[burns210]

"Somehow slapping a few big magnets on the side of a ship"

Maybe i misunderstand you, or the idea behind electromagnets... but arn't they only magnets when they have electricity fed to them? so if you were out at see, you just wouldn't have them on, and if you were in shore... well if there are mines that close to a harbor, you are screwed anyway.

Re:Military vessels will never use this.

[Anonymous Coward]

With a commercial super carrier, time spent in port is essentially wasted (because the ship is not transporting anything). The less time is spent in port, the cheaper the ship becomes, and the cheaper the goods transported on the ship become.

The same is not quite true for navy vessels. There is no commercial (or military) reason for keeping them in port for as short a time as possible (during military operations they can be restocked at sea; when the world is at peace they may as well spend those 40 minutes extra in the harbor).

So I do not see the navy using this any time soon. However, I'm not sure if it makes sense for commercial shipping either - it sounds like an expensive way to dock a ship.

And of course most navy ships are like little boats when compared to commercial super carriers. A piece of string is enough to keep them from drifting away ;-)

I'm annoyed by a lot of these comments

[Fastolfe]

A lot of these uneducated comments in here are really bugging me. I see a lot of people saying this is a stupid idea, it'll be too expensive, it'll never work, etc. What is with all of the negativity?

First of all, this is an experiment. Experiments never usually make money in the short term.

Secondly, here's a quote from the article (which several posters need to actually read):

If it works, they say the system could save them around 5 million Euro a year in labour costs, and speed ships' average turnaround times by 40 minutes.

Could we please concede the possibility that someone has done a marginal amount of research into this and backed these figures up on some real numbers? Maybe it won't save them that much, or maybe the whole thing will end up costing too much. That's the point of an experiment, after all: to determine if something is going to work.

And for all of the couch port authorities inhabiting Slashdot, please remember that this is probably going to be done with the blessing (and financial support) of a large ocean port. I know that perhaps many of you think you know more about docking ships, managing large ocean-going vessels and the expenses associated with these activities than those in charge of these ports, but please take a deep breath, relax for a minute, and consider the possibility that maybe they're supporting this experiment for a reason, and that reason probably has less to do with a mad scientist trying to dupe someone into buying them a lot of expensive magnets and more to do with a convincing argument that this experiment could save them money in the long run.

Re:I'm annoyed by a lot of these comments

[Mac Degger]

Hurrah!

Is that how your mom explained it to you?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Hemp is the male plant, FYI. Smokable herb comes from the female.)

And I know for a fact that you can easily recognize the male hemp because it grows nuts. They're huge and hairy, almost like coconuts.

SUV's

[Arecibe]

Maybe they could apply this to parking those huge SUVs that always seem to park near me... it seem that those soccer moms choose the optimum position for their bratty kids to bash their doors into my car.

numbers are whack

[black_widow]

these are more realistic

1. Invent electromagnetic ship docking system
2. Call it a tractor beam!
3. ???
4. Profit!!!!

they can learn what ??? is from the RIAA and Iridium

Notes to self

[Proudrooster]

1st Note to self: Time to sell stock in companies that make large ropes for mooring ships in harbors.

2nd Note to self:
1. Patent, and copyright a system that uses DRM enabled, pulsed-electromagnets that attact each other.
2. Wait a few years until new electromagnetic boat docking system becomes popular.
3. Sue everyone that uses this new system under the DMCA and demand hefty license fees.
4. Profit!
5. Ask congress to invent a new tax on magnets and electromagnets that is paid directly to me for piracy compensation.
6. Low probablility of Profit, but a fun waste of time.

"Where have all the great men gone?" -me

There's nothing new under the sun

[Anonymous Coward]

Mines like you describe have been used for a long time - IIRC about a 100 years or so. In other words they came into being just a few decades after the first iron ships appeared.

The problem is even if you put a big mine right up to the hull you "just" poke a hole in it. Think about the USS Cole or USS Samuel B. Roberts. Both of those were a couple of tons of explosives, and they killed "only" about twenty people combined - and didn't sink either ship, both of which are relatively small compared to a modern freighter or tanker.

Given the amount of effort it would take to construct and place such a mine along with the low probability of "success", there are probably a lot more "efficient" uses of two tons of TNT than a mine.

Appropriate technology or high-tech boondoggle?

[snStarter]

Is this a good use for technology? Seems like a vast amount over over-kill to replace something that's very straightforward and which has worked reliably for years.

Think of the backups required to make this system work. Power backups for the magnets, for their cooling system, probably mooring lines in case the magnets croak.

What have we gained really? Put some folks out of work.

This seems like a product that fixes what ain't broke.

Re:Appropriate technology or high-tech boondoggle?

[Mac Degger]

You know, those abbaci worked real well for centuries, too...why oh why did we ever think about replacing them?

Not just 'a port in the Netherlands'...

[Harlow_B_Ashur]

it's Rotterdam, the largest port it the world!

Yes but that's good!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had paid attention to Star Trek: Enterprise, you'd know that polarizing the hull plates is an excellent defence against enemy vessels.

Has been used on Mars for a long time

[evilmatt67]

Martian Canal, in the Royal Barge

>push orange button
The writing on the button changes as you press it

The Royal Barge drifts slowly around the bend, ending up near the western bank of the canal.

>read orange button
The huge orange button reads: MagnetoMoor off

>_
(From 'Leather Goddesses of Phobos' Infocom, 1986)

Re:Has been used on Mars for a long time

[ChaoticLimbs]

It grieves me that I know EXACTLY what game you're talking about. I had this on my C=64. Just try telling him/her to fuck the horse. hilarious.

Residual fields

[MyNameIsFred]

True, the magnets are turned off at sea, but you can't turn off a magnet of the strength mentioned and not have some residual field left over. In the world of physics, its called hysteresis. Physically, the electricity lines up the atoms to make a magnet. Turn off the electricity and most, but not all, will assume a random direction. The "but not all" is critical. They're responsible for the residual field. To remove it, you actually have to reverse the direction of the electricity slightly. To exactly cancel the residual field is a not trivial and requires sensitive measuring equipment. There lies the problem -- Navy ships want to be as close to zero magnetism as possible so they don't trigger mines. (By the way, mines are typically deployed at chockpoints, such as the exits to ports.)

Re:Residual fields

[Mac Degger]

But container ships wouldn't give much of a rats behind...

Not just "a port"

[Erik from Breda]

Calling Rotterdam just "a port in the Netherlands" is an understatement: Rotterdam is the largest port in the world and has been for some years...

Coutse and heading, captain

[ralphclark]

I hope the pilot remembers to attend the academy lecture on conservation of tractor beam power!

Re:Coutse and heading, captain

[ralphclark]

Should have been "Course heading, captain".

Can somebody please moderate me down for completely mistyping the fricking subject line? Jeez!

Re:I HATE GOD yes yes oh oh yes yes yes yes oh oh

[Anonymous Coward]

Psalms 14:1 -> Foolish is the man who does not believe in God.

Imagine the cost ...

[fygment]

... of an accident. I've been in the Navy for 20 years. Ship's hit hard sometimes, even with tugs, when the current, wind, etc. go against you. Right now it's a bit of wood that gets crunched. What's the cost on those magnets again? And as if water, salt, air and metal weren't bad enough, toss in some high current lines and huge magnetic fields. Seems very complicated, high maintenance, and for no obvious benefit.

THE LAST WORD on MOORING from an �EXPERT�

[PeterMSL]

I was recently quoted in the New Scientist as saying:-

"Montgomery points out that the Dutch magnetic system will use a lot of electricity and may be prone to power failures".

See:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9 99 93270

Sure, power is a concern - however I never responded to the inquiry from Maarten Keulemans in a negative sense or indeed in a manner that would pour cold water over Martin Verweij and Erik Fiktorie's research. In fact I applaud their initiative and found the magnetic mooring concept intriguing. I would suggest that typical journalism was employed here. Short on facts - high on negativity and controversy.

To provide some background I would consider myself as one of the World's leading experts in automated mooring for merchant and military vessels. I come from a maritime background and served on a variety of ships until leaving the sea after attaining the rank of Chief Officer.

Over the past few years, my team at Mooring Systems Limited has largely pioneered this automated mooring field and spent millions of dollars developing our products.

I first started designing automated mooring systems in 1985 after a parting line mooring killed a crewmember in front of me - it wasn't a pretty sight.

I've read a lot of your comments here and some are good - others are just BS. Humans will never progress unless we take chances and explore options. Sometimes through experimentation we will stumble across something truly beneficial for all mankind. To me, solving the rope mooring problem will ultimately save lives and create more efficient working environments - it is a worthwhile endeavour and one that I have devoted my working life to.

You must appreciate that the problems associated with automating the mooring process are incredibly difficult. Anyone who is trying to do this is courageous and deserves encouragement.

The field demands that you design a product that can cope with the almost chaotic dynamics associated with the environment yet meet the needs of the vast body of stakeholders involved including Port Authorities, Ship Owners, Unions, Maritime Safety, Insurance and Class.

In respect of the Electro Magnetic mooring proposal my thoughts were:

1. That the magnets may cause corrosion and alter the properties of the steelwork leading to a degradation of important structural elements with continued use.

2. The magnets would induce a mooring force that the hull must compensate for. In a lot of vessels this force maybe greater than acceptable tolerances. Hulls are not generally designed to compensate for forces greater than 10mt/sq.m. By FEA analysis we have found that some strengthening is required to longitudinals or transverse beams to accept direct mooring loads.

3. How would the magnets cater to shear forces fore and aft?

4. Would the magnets be recessed behind the maximum fender compression line and if so how would they be extended to make contact with the hull.

5. Can you measure the mooring load on the vessel by this means? This is extremely important to provide comfort and load monitoring during the mooring.

6. Do the magnets properly and safely compensate for fast (and common) heeling, trim and displacement changes whilst alongside?

7. As a Mariner - our last back up for navigation is the magnetic compass. Would the magnets affect the ships calibrated compass through such use?

8. Are the magnets shielded Quay side. Will shore personnel/equipment suffer any effect?

9. Have you examined high transient loads which can occur in mooring. My concern is that such loads may breach the "outreach" of the system and cause a failure.

Whilst a lot of people here talk about Power usage - this to me was not such a concern given UPS systems - I was badly "quoted". Nor was I particularly concerned about magnetic affect on cargo or internal switchboards providing the field did not ingress to such a depth. I do not know enough about magnets to comment with any accuracy so I was quite curious about this proposal. I do not have any idea what a 1 telsa magnet would cost so I can't comment on ROI.

So in finishing - give Martin and Erik a break - they are innovative and without people like them (and also me) - we would still be living in caves and rubbing rocks together for fire.

And Martin - if you ever read this response drop me an e-mail - I would love to talk about what we are both trying to achieve. Perhaps there we can share some research to make Shipping a safer and more efficient work place.

Kind regards to all

Peter Montgomery
Mooring Systems Limited
info@mooring.co.nz
www.fastmoor.com

Re:THE LAST WORD on MOORING from an �EXPERT�

[Anonymous Coward]

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