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HP Finally Reveals The Alpha Marvel

Posted by timothy on from the sequels-are-sometimes-good dept.

brejc8 writes "HP have revealed the new range of AlphaServer systems. The new EV7 processors show very reasonable performance figures. Revealed by the inquirer the 1GHz versions have very similar SPEC scores as the 1GHz Itanium 2 (INT_2000 of 875 and FP_2000 of 1,500). This is very intersting after HP were rumoured to ensure that "...no Alpha benchmark will be released until the Itanium platform(s) is/are faster"."

29 of 152 comments (clear)

  1. Only one? by LiftOp · · Score: 5, Funny
    from hp: "Customers, analyst and industry leaders react enthusiastically"

    I knew tech was tightening the belt, but they could only get one analyst to react enthusiastically? And you know that guy's looking over his shoulder... I'd be reacting DAMN enthusiastically if I was him.

  2. Re:linux? by 1lus10n · · Score: 4, Informative

    they should, all current versions of the alpha procs run linux great. (as verified by the alphaserver 5000 sitting under my desk running RH 7.2)

    --
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
  3. HPs Strategy by jbischof · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I am very confused on why HP says "We fully support Itanium" and then releases EV7? This architecture is so fundamentally sound that it can beat Itanium 2 on core floating point performance.

    In my mind HP should either go one way or the other, not release a processor most people would claim to be better than Itanium. Why didn't Intel just buy the Alpha architecture and continue it?

    I know that AMD and Intel have both dissected the EV8 planned processor, and used parts of it for themselves. EV8 was going to be 4-way SMT (Intel uses that now as HyperThreading) and have integrated Northbridge on die (same as Hammer chips).

    Its a sad state of affairs when the superior architecture gets cut up and sold to different companies to produce two slightly inferior chips.

    1. Re:HPs Strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      They need 'grout' to fill in the space between people currently on Alpha (or someone needing better performance NOW), before Itanium comes to the point in which they are the in thing. Alpha has MANY VERY loyal customers that would drop ship if they didn't have something to fill the space until Itanium comes of age. AMD doesn't have anything on EV8, it is EV6 they have and licensed technology for. Intel does however have rights to use everything from EV7 and EV8.

    2. Re:HPs Strategy by Chris+Colohan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Before HP purchased Compaq, Compaq had already committed to selling EV7 systems to customers. HP would be stupid to reneg on those contracts and upset their customers.

      Also, when HP bought Compaq years worth of design work for the EV7 were already finished. Throwing it away would not necessarily be a profitable decision.

      Talking to the folks on the Alpha design team (now the Intel advanced design team), they were not super happy about EV8 being cancelled. But such decisions usually come down to money...

      The Alpha was in almost all ways a technically superior design to the IA-64. Now that the same group of architects is working for Intel, they can probably make the IA-64 run almost as well or better...

    3. Re:HPs Strategy by heh2k · · Score: 3, Informative
      In my mind HP should either go one way or the other, not release a processor most people would claim to be better than Itanium. Why didn't Intel just buy the Alpha architecture and continue it?

      they were probably well into working on the itanic when the option to buyout alpha came along.

      Its a sad state of affairs when the superior architecture gets cut up and sold to different companies to produce two slightly inferior chips.

      yes, it is. and disregarding alpha for a moment, you would think after 20 so years of the pile of crap known as x86, that intel would be intelligent enough to make clean, sane cpu. instead they, of course, design the itanic. i've read about its isa and all i can say is "feature bloat". i also read a little of the hp book about porting linux. the itanic is the most overly complicated, misdesigned cpu i think has ever been made. at least when the 8086 came out, it was a good design (relatively speaking).

      it's funny how intel says "epic is simple, no ooo complexity" but doesn't mention the all rediculous crap like rotating register files, etc, etc. afaict, ia64 is MORE complex than any risc chip. NOT simpler. and throwing ooo out the door is stupid. a) compilers can't predict cache misses b) gcc sucks and so, to get anywhere near decent performance, you have to use a different compiler (dec's cc, and i think just about everyone else's, outperforms gcc). i predict that intel will be forced to eventually add ooo back. at best, intel has traded ooo complexity for the complexity of all the features needed for compiler driven scheduling, AND forced compilers to be very good just to get decent performance.

    4. Re:HPs Strategy by Syre · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Trillions (yes you read that correctly) of dollars per day move around the world on VMS-based money transfer systems (before you question this, think again. I have managed some of these money transfer systems. Over $1 trillion per day moved in and out of ONE bank I worked at several years ago).

      Trillions more are controlled internally by such systems. VMS systems also still power major mission-critical business processes at thousands of companies.

      You don't just drop a user base like that and say "ok, go convert overnight to a new processer architecture". These companies have long-term plans and are some of the biggest customers for large systems. They have already spent millions of dollars and years of effort converting from VAX to Alpha, and they aren't going to be willing or able to suddenly switch to Itanium.

      For those who said "just recompile", they are missing the point. It's not just the programs which need to work absolutely and perfectly, it's the OS, and VMS on Itanium doesn't even exist yet. And once it does, it has to be proven to work reliably. These systems have to have PERFECT uptime. Sure, they have hot standbys, etc. but switching over and back is typically a painful process. Remember: much of the code which runs the world is decades old.

      If HP doesn't want to lose billions of dollars worth of business, they won't be pulling the rug out from their VMS/Alpha customers any time soon, and the cancelling of the EV8 could very well be their undoing in this market. Unless they are able to come up with an absolutely reliable VMS port for Itanium and rock solid porting tools, this user base will migrate to some other platform (at great expense and effort) and it may very well be something other than HP.

    5. Re:HPs Strategy by Isle · · Score: 3, Informative

      A great deal of Alpha architect left when Compaq bought Digital. They went mostly to AMD, making the Athlon faster (the main-design was already done), and their influence is also seen readily in the Sledgehammer design.

    6. Re:HPs Strategy by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Itanium 1 was a concept chip, the second one was meant to go into general use.. it has failed, so people label it a concept chip to try and save face..

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    7. Re:HPs Strategy by Syre · · Score: 3, Informative

      I said typically.

      The fact that your particular place of work happens to have it figured out is no contradiction to the general case.

      And you're talking local switching. In banking operations, you have remote hot standby in case your datacenter burns down or something else really bad happens (both COs you're connected to die at once, for instance).

      With remote hot standby, switching and switching back is often (note the often) much more painful.

      In case you still don't get it, note that switching implies that one of your datacenters is DOWN and you are now on a completely separate system with separate disk drives, communications links, etc. Switching back means that you have to bring everything back up, sync it, and fail back again.

      Sure, it works. Is it fun? No. Is testing it and retesting it under every failure condition under a new OS port and processer architecture fun?

      Um no.

  4. How many FPS under Quake 3 though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    This all important benchmark seems to have been left out.

  5. It's hellaciously fast by nosferatu-man · · Score: 4, Informative

    ... at least on OpenMP type applications. Cribbed shamelessly from realworldtech.com:

    SPECOMP2001 results, base/peak:

    4 cpu:
    EV7/1150: 6027/6824
    I2/1000: 3762/4091

    8 cpu:
    EV7/1150: 10349/11929
    POWER4+/1450: 9458/ 9694
    PA8700+/875: 4375/ 4541

    16 cpu:
    EV7/1150: 17724/20637
    PA8700+/875: 7763/ 8788
    R14k/600: 7265/ 7726

    Note that this is not a pure CPU test (like SpecINT/FP), but rather a test of SMP performance. Looks like the tin-foil hat "Wait 'til EV8!" brigade might have been on to something ...

    'jfb

    --
    To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
  6. Alphas are great, but... by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does anybody think that HP isn't going to phase out the Alpha? For some, that doesn't matter much, but I imagine that lots of people are going to be hesitant about buying into a system whose days are so obviously numbered.

    1. Re:Alphas are great, but... by imadork · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'll wait until the Beta comes out. *ducks*

  7. Odd reporting... by guido1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So first, the inquirer states that HP will be posting no perf. specs for the server until blah blah blah... (But in reading the article, it's "a guy who knows overheard someone say that they won't be posting...".)

    Later, it finds performance specs and posts them? (Without listing a source for those numbers...)

    Odd journalism to me... Sure, the Alpha sounds pretty good... But I'll be lame and wait for the official numbers...

  8. Yes they do run Linux, VMS, Tru64 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Real nicly too....everyone who's demo'd one has drolled at it.

    1. Re:Yes they do run Linux, VMS, Tru64 by tbone1 · · Score: 5, Funny
      • everyone who's demo'd one has drolled at it.

      What, Oscar Wilde was a beta tester?

      --

      The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
  9. Re:Dupe! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny
    shhhhhhhh!

    Here's your chance to datamine the previous story for +5, insightful comments to karma whore here!

  10. Re:linux? by Compaq+Test+Drive · · Score: 5, Informative
    Speaking as someone who has in fact actually done it, yes, Linux will run on an EV7 Alpha system. If you'd like to try out an EV7 prototype system, we have one up in the HP Test Drive Program, where we give out free shell accounts on a wide range of hardware and operating systems. The EV7 prototype we have is running Tru64 UNIX at the moment, but we do periodically have Linux on there for people to try. We also have Itanium II systems running Linux, for anyone who would like to try them out as well.

    I may work for HP, but that does not imply that my opinions are theirs.

  11. From the HP site... by rindeee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "32-way systems will be available mid-2003, and 64-way systems near the end of 2003." A couple of things come to mind. 1. How will the 64 proc model compare to the new SGI Altix 3000? 2. Is anyone (now or planning to in the near future) scaling the Itanium2 up to that level? I have not heard mention of a 64 proc I2 production system, but then I haven't followed it very closely. Anyone have any info on this? Also on their web site "The next step forward in a long term future with HP". I would take this as an implication that they are planning on keeping the Alpha platform long-term (of course implying it doesn't make it so).

    1. Re:From the HP site... by rindeee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, the first thing that jumps to mind is that a single "box" with 64 processors using partitioning is typcially faster (as is the case with the Altix using NUMA) and it is easier to manage (of course I say that having never touched either a 64proc box or a 8x8 cluster).

    2. Re:From the HP site... by nbvb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, yes it is a lot easier to manage.

      And for the schmuck who said "Real operating systems supports Beowolf"... :
      a) It's Beowulf, not "beowolf". Check your literary history.
      b) Bullpoop. Beowulf's got nothing to do with the OS, and everything to do with the applications. You show me an Oracle that uses MPI or PVM.

      Of course! There's no need. Oracle already has OPS (Oracle parallel server). So yes, you can have an "8x8" cluster of Oracle nodes. Ever try to manage one of those? It's definitely a cluster ---- a cluster*uck!

      SMP is a beautiful thing. It's not exactly linearly scalable, but close. And the beautiful part is that if your app is multithreaded, it'll automagically take advantage of the SMP capabilities of the system -- no need to code to the MPI or PVM API's.

      Just for sheer "damn, that's cool" factor, think about this:
      A Solaris 8 CD will boot and install on a single-proc, 33mhz SPARCstation 10 from 1992 all the way through a 108-processor, 900mhz/each Sun Fire 15000.

      Now _THAT_'s scalable.

      --NBVB

  12. I wouldn't trust it by Chocolate+Teapot · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is a server system? A closer examination reveals that 'Hewlett Packard' is an anagram of 'whacked platter'. Better back up those hard drives now.

    --
    Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise. - William Shakespeare
  13. 2-4 processor setups by Cheeze · · Score: 3, Interesting

    dollar for dollar, x86 offerings will be much lower in price and support costs in the 2-4 processor setups. I think HP should team up with a company like Apple or Sun and start offering processors on the alpha platform that run the other company's software. Can anyone say OSX on EV7?

    --
    Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
    1. Re:2-4 processor setups by pmz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      dollar for dollar, x86 offerings will be much lower in price and support costs in the 2-4 processor setups.

      I'm not so sure about this anymore. I was very impressed recently when I saw the diagnostic output from a Sun workstation that had a failed component. The Sun workstation reported down to the chip where the system had failed (the information comes out of the serial port during POST). When time equals money, this sort of stuff is hard to beat.

      x86 boxes usually require hair-pulling trial-and-error troubleshooting that makes one feel terrible about the time wasted. Conversely, with the Sun box, the admin basically said "oh, that's it" and called the vendor.

      --
      Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
  14. SpecOMP (link) by nosferatu-man · · Score: 3, Informative

    Info on SpecOMP, just in case anyone's interested. Also, here's a snippet from the FAQ:

    Q3: What components does SPEC OMP measure?
    A3: Since the benchmarks are designed to reflect applications requiring compute-intensive parallel processing, they measure performance of the computer's processors, memory architecture, operating system, and compiler. It is important to remember the contribution of the latter three components.

    'jfb

    --
    To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
  15. Re:linux? by doorbot.com · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's probably going to be the single biggest factor in deciding which 64-bit server CPU dominates the marketplace.

    Linux on UltraSparc works great, and has excellent support under Debian (although I guess that's no surprise).

  16. Re:I hope the Alpha lives by Best_Username_Ever · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is absolutely no way HP will try and take on Intel or anyone else in the market for low-end single processor systems. For starters the Alpha costs a lot because it has been made with scalability in mind, it cant compete on price with an Intel chip. The size of Intel and the volumes of chips they produce means HP could not compete (seen AMD's P&L figures lately?). Micro$oft also pulled the plug on alpha support years ago, and windoze still drives the low end single processor market (despite all the hype surrounding Linux).

    Compaq were too scared of Intel to even remain in the high end market, where Intel are yet to make an impact. The competition is going to be fierce, it will be interesting to see if Sun and IBM can compete in the long term. Sun are already starting to look shaky, but at least they were willing to stay and fight. I think Intel will eventually push it's competitors out of the processor market, except maybe for a few niche products. The market is IMO a natural monopoly just waiting for one company to step up to the plate. The fact that Alpha is being killed just proves the point that superior technology counts for little.

    Alpha is dead, this is the last hurah in what was a very significant era. Great technology developed by brilliant technicians and killed off by incompetent managers.

  17. Re:Dick Sites by vistic · · Score: 3, Funny

    What a clever way to get me to read this comment...