Telemarketers Sue to Block Do-Not-Call List

chumpieboy writes "A story on Yahoo tells about about the DMA's attempts to stop a national DoNotCall list, essentially claiming that Opt Out is not a viable model for telemarketers. Yet they claim that Opt Out is a viable model for email marketing?"

Comments

fantasy system:

[timothy]

[Medium Closeup: telemarketer dials]

[SFX: ringing phone]

[SFX: an audible click, followed by a recording]

[Slow zoom, from closeup to extreme closeup, onto a telephone or computer with exaggerated blinking lights to show activity]

Recorded voice: "Hi! You're reached my telephone number. If you'd like to agree to be charged up to $10/minute at my sole discretion, please hit the "1" key now! I don't charge my friends, but if you're wasting my time with an unsolicited sales call generated by a database, please be advised that your calls are valuable to me."

[Medium closeup: telemarketer, with can of soda in one hand, hangs up, frustrated]

[Extreme closeup: hand crushing soda can]

Re:fantasy system:

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you could always do what I did all last year. Play games with them. Pretend you are an old man and get the words screwed up. Talk sexy, not dirty, to them. Amazing, I have not gotten a telemarketing call in about 4 months now. Even my kids got into the act and miss the calls. Pretty sick, no? :)

Re:fantasy system:

[qoncept]

Thats great, except... I did telemarketing while trying to find a real job for about a month (be nice, I was a bad telemarketer - if you said no I left you alone and got yelled at by my supervisor for it). It sucked, but not because of the people I talked to. I just couldn't stand sitting there all damn day without a chance to move around (it's quite high paced).

Think about it, though. I talked to probably an average of 500 people a day. 400 of them were as rude as they probably ever are in their lives. 250 were pissed that I was calling them. 100 yelled at me. 50 tried to be clever and expected to trigger some sort of emotion in me, and 0 did.

By the way, if I was lucky, maybe 3 or so of those 500 would end up with a shiny new Discover Platinum card.

Re:fantasy system:

[BigT]

This is why do-not-call lists could actually be good for telemarketers. Of those 400 people, most would probably sign up for the do-not-call list. Let's say 300 of them. That leaves 100 people being rude, and 100 willing to listen for every 200 calls. If you expand that out to the 500 calls you made a day, then you have 250 people willing to listen and 7-8 sales per day vs. 3.
The people (like myself) who are going to sign up for the list will never buy anything from a telemarketer, so if we cut down on the number of calls that they make that are guaranteed to be unproductive, it's actually better for them.

Re:fantasy system:

[The_K4]

My experience with the state do-not call list was pretty poor. SO i just switched my "listed" nuber to my cell phone. It's the only number I give out to ANYONE that I don't know. Now if i get a telemarketer call it's on my cell. I politly inform them that this is a cell phone, and as such illegal for them to call. I ask them for their address, and the id number of this call that I may send them a bill for the charges to my cell phone for this call, which they are now legaly liable for. I get supprisingly few calls now. :)

Re:fantasy system:

[flyhmstr]

I only got rude to telemarketers when they didn't take the hint or lied

TM: "HI..."
ME: No thank you
TM: but if..
ME: what part of 'no' was difficult, bugger off.

or

TM: "HI..."
ME: If you're trying to sell something don't bother
TM: Well if you give me a moment I'm sure you'll be interested...
ME: Bugger off

However we don't get any calls now because we're on the UK TPS (telephone preference service) which is the UK telemarketing block list. Apart from the odd company which are stupid beyond the norm and get asked for their company details so I can pass them on to Oftel it works well.

Re:fantasy system:

[MattCohn.com]

I convinced someone trying to sell me long distance that I did NOT have a phone.

Sir, could I speak to the owner of the household?
>That's me.
And you have no phone?
>Correct.
You are at YOUR house?
>Yep.
And you OWN the house?
>Yes.
Yet you have no phone?
>Nope. No phone.

Went on for about 15 minutes. I think he started to belive it at the end.

Re:fantasy system:

[Anonymous Coward]

I guarantee you would have had an emotional response if you'd called my apartment back when I was in college.

My roommate and I used to keep one of those air horn noise makers next to the phone just for the wonderful opportunities offered by telemarketers to college students. As soon as we identified the caller as an unwanted call...120 dB right into the phone...too bad Ma Bell can't transmit that loud of a signal through the network. I guarantee that the same telemarketer NEVER called our number back.

I'd still be doing it now, but the wife says it sets a bad example for the kids. *shrug*

Re:fantasy system:

[namespan]

That's actual wisdom, and that's assuming your business model is tuned to meeting people's needs, not manipulating them into buying something they don't need.

Re:fantasy system:

[Dr. Evil]

Oh no.... new business plan:

"Hello Sir/Madam, we noticed that you are not on the Do Not Call List, this means that at any moment, perhaps even now, a telemarketer might be trying to reach you. For the low, low price of $5, you can be added to this list. It's easy, just press 1 and never be bothered again."

Damn, that's worth a patent.

Pray that it will back-fire

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they can successfully make the argument that opt-out lists like the proposed "Do Not Call" won't allow them to operate effectively. Bear with me here...

So, instead of a "Do Not Call" list being maintained that they have to honor, people will have to register for a "Do Call" list. This list will contain the phone numbers of people who have registered themselves as wanting telemarketing calls. This list is also the only list which telemarketers can use when calling people.

Okay, a pipe dream, but it surely would be a more manageable list, no?

Re:Pray that it will back-fire

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, a pipe dream, but it surely would be a more manageable list, no?

I'm not so sure about that. The list could become quite large once you require that all telemarketers, their employees, and their family members must be on the "Do Call" list. Of course, all calls to them should be made between 1 and 4 AM.

Well, which is it?

[stevel]

Interesting. Just the other day I read a newspaper story about DNC lists saying that the DMA liked them because they wouldn't waste their time calling people who didn't want their calls...

Re:Well, which is it?

[micromoog]

The DMA maintains their own do-not-call list (which, by the way, does work to some extent).

According to their (BS) argument, a required list would be too much trouble to use, even though they already "recommend" the use of their optional list to member companies.

Go sign up for the optional list now. And don't pay the $5 online fee . . . you can do it by mail for free.

Re:Well, which is it?

[afidel]

Actually the state DNC lists ARE effective because by doing a substantial ammount of business in the states in questions the telemarketers have opened themselves to regulation. Trust me my brother and friend both work as analysts for telemarketing firms and they are VERY sure to make sure no one from a DNC list is called. The DNC lists do have teeth, and even if they didn't it would be futile to call on anyone on the lists because they have already stated their intention not to patronize telemarketers.

Re:Well, which is it?

[aborchers]

The fact that DMA charges a $5 to register on-line, where the removal process can be trivially automated, and will remove me for free if I send their form by mail, where a human being has to collect and open the mail, do data entry, etc. demonstrates their contempt for consumers. They go out of their way to ensure that it is difficult to avoid being annoyed by them, while maintaining a claim that they offer us the option. This is exactly why they need to be regulated.

BTW, great username. Brings back memories of thumping the plate glass windows at my local music store with subsonic blasts from the mm rig in the back.

Re:Well, which is it?

[MCZapf]

Yes, they are trying to discourage you from register from their do-not-call list. But, take a close look at the snail mail removal process. They've cleverly arranged it to be significantly more complicated for you, yet trivial for them. The only data entry a human at the DMA has to do is to enter a tracking number.

Observe that to generate the form they want you to send by snail mail, you submit all of your personal data to their webserver, which returns to you a page for you to print and mail to them. Since you are sending the data to their webserver they are almost definitely collecting it, even though they won't act on it unless you mail it in.

Not convinced? Then take a look at the page the webserver sends back to you. Along with your name, address, etc. there is a unique tracking number. Not only that, but the same tracking number is included in the address they ask you to mail the form to. I'll bet the DMA doesn't even open the envolopes sent to them. Someone just enters in the tracking number from the address and POOF, the data they collected earlier is used to add you to the do-not-call list.

What's my point? I guess it's that these guys aren't idiots. I trust them to actually put my name on this list with little chance for error, seeing as how easy they've made it for themselves.

And take this with ya!

[Nidhogg]

The proposal cleared a crucial hurdle earlier Wednesday when a House of Representatives committee voted to give the FTC the power to collect fees from telemarketers to pay for the list.

So they're making them pay for it too?

Hot damn. If I ever meet an FTC member they're getting a hug.

on my friends answering machine

[greechneb]

You've reached 555-1234. If you would like to leave a message, you know what to do. If you are selling windows, doors, siding, long distance, or any other crap, hang up and never call back...

One day she got a message from a telemarketer cussing her out for the message, saying that they were only trying to make a living. Guess she struck a nerve with that telemarketer....

How the list will be abused:

[doublem]

I don't see the point of the DNC list.

Here's what will happen:

List will be made available

Telemarketers will get hold of list.

SOME US based telemarketers will do what they're supposed to and leave the people on the list alone.

Others (I know one personally) will laugh and hand the list over to their call center as a list of verified numbers. If someone goes after them, they will weasel out of the lawsuit via claims of clerical errors. (Got him off the junk fax rap they faced in '97. This is a very sick SOB who honestly believes people WANT to receive SPAM)

finally, there will be a group that takes the list to another country and sets up a call center there.

Sure, you won't get as many calls from US telemarketers, but you'll get a boatload from Indian Telemarketers who laugh at phrase "Put me on your do not call list" reply.

Re:How the list will be abused:

[Daniel Dvorkin]

I kind of doubt it. Colorado is one of the states that has a state DNC list (which applies to out-of-state callers as well) and I haven't seen any sign of abuse -- just a (wonderful) reduction in the number of junk calls I get. In fact, I think I've only had one telemarketer call me since my number went on the list, and when I said, "This number is on the state do-not-call list, and it is illegal for you to call me," he apologized and hung up quickly. The only real hole I see in the system is the exemption for charities and political groups -- guys, if I want to donate to your organization to save the homeless veteran baby seal politicians, I'll seek you out on my own, don't call me at dinner, thanks.

There are some big differences between telemarketing and spam that make abuse less likely:

1) "Verified" phone numbers can usually be found simply by opening up the phone book. People don't drop phone numbers nearly as often as they drop e-mail addresses. So the whole concept of verifying numbers isn't likely to be all that important to telemarketers.

2) It costs money to call from other countries. Obviously there are deals by which big companies can make it cost not-that-much; otherwise IBM wouldn't be setting up call centers in India. But I suspect the resources for that kind of thing are a little beyond the fly-by-night organizations that set up spam centers.

3) You can make life a lot harder for telemarketers than you can for people on the other end of spam. Scream at them, blow a whistle into the phone, press and hold buttons ... Even back when I was getting telemarketing calls, I didn't do these things, because I know most telemarketers themselves (as opposed to their bosses) are just normal people trying to make a living. But if I didn't have any other resources to get them off my ass, I'd probably start doing that. I know people who have done that sort of thing regularly and said they got a dramatic reduction in the number of calls -- apparently, somehow, word gets around.

Stupid, stupid businessmen

[Anonymous Coward]

How bad is this going to get?

I want to start a business where I send people bills in the mail that they must pay. Sure this is a stupid business model, but I want a law that makes it work, dammit!

Oh, and I'd better patent this business plan fast!

Ok, fine then.

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't think "Opt Out" is a viable model? Fine, we'll do what they want, go the other way. Make it Opt In.

Opt Out

[Sgs-Cruz]

Ha! They claim that "Opt Out" is a valid method for email marketing beause they can easily ignore the opt-out requests. In fact, if you 'opt out' they know you're a live person and just send you more email marketing.

Phones are slightly different, because a) they can't phone you from the island of Vanatau that easily (perhaps - voIP could change this) and b) there are laws (in the U.S. anyway) forcing them to respect the do-not-call (aka opt-out) list. So really, they only like 'Opt Out' when they can ignore it. This isn't really surprising though, considering the lack of morals we've repeatedly seen from direct marketers.

State Wide is not enough

[buzzsport]

"But telemarketers say 27 existing state do-not-call lists and a voluntary national list run by the Direct Marketing Association trade group should provide consumers enough protection."

I live in a State (CT) that has such a list but we still receive numerous unsoliticed calls and subsequent hangups when we inform them they've violated state law. Problem is that the state apparently doesn't have juristiction and/or not enough bandwidth to go after some of the out of state companies. I'm all for a Federal list.

Simple solution..

[grub]

buy a Telezapper or make your own with these tones. Simply put these on your answering machine before any speaking. The tones will play and will fool most of the remote machines into thinking you have a disconnected number.

Opting-out

[doc_traig]

I'm so scarred by the daily battles with spam that the whole thought of opting-out of anything repulses me... I feel like if I get on some DNC list that a bunch of offshore telemarketers will get their hands on that list so they have "live" targets.

My wife recently told me that she was clicking on an opt-out link on some bit of spam and I nearly tackled her out of her chair to keep her from doing it.

You can't let them know you're there! Pull the shades! Rip the phone out of the wall! Gag the dog!

Strangely, I agree with them for once...

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

I wholeheartedly concur with them, and fervently believe it should be an opt-in list. For telemarketers to call you, they should have to be able to prove to authorities that you are on the opt-in call list, which should be impossible for most people make themselves listed. If they are insane or something, and keep trying, it should require a 6 month waiting list, complete with psych evaluation and $1500 fees, and an in-person registration in DC, complete with 9 picture IDs, just to put your name on the list.

Any telemarketer violating this opt-in list, whether for commercial, charity, or survey purposes would be subject to life in a Mexican prison without parole. Then again, sending all our telemarketers to Mexico would probably be an act of war... my apologies to any mexicans reading this, I retract that last part.

evidence for this

[martin]

I'd them to cite evidence "that it doesn't work".

We have it here in the UK for both phone and postal varients, and from my experience it works well, YMMV of course.

We used to get lots of phone and postal spam. We signed up and after 3 months it started receeding and now we get no phone spam and very very little postal spam.

That's tame

[acidrain69]

I had a roommate once that told the guy on the phone he was a little busy at the moment because he was masturbating. I've told people I was blind before so they wouldn't try to sell me some visual-oriented device.

"Sorry, I'm getting a blowjob right now, and my girlfriend is getting a little mad that I'm not paying attention to her. "

You can have a lot of fun with this.

You know, my mugger told me the same thing.

[dark-nl]

Muggers have to make a living too. The guy was aware that taking my watch and my wallet might annoy me, but hey, he's got to make money somehow, and muggers don't have it easy.

I told him to place me on his "do not mug" list, but he didn't seem interested.

Re:yeah right

[schon]

Where in the Constitution is Freedom of Privacy stated? You may be able to infer it from other amendments but it is not nearly as clearly stated as Freedom of Speech.

The previous poster is clearly in error. "Freedom of speech" is a diversion - this has absolutely nothing to do with free speech.

"Freedom of speech" means "you can say what you want." It does not mean "you can force people to listen to you."

If someone says "I don't want to hear from you", you can't force them to listen by claiming "free speech." Since that is exactly what a DNC list is, the whole "free speech" argument is BS.

Re:Fun with telemarketers

[cybermace5]

My favorite is a simple question:

"So. Is this really what you wanted to be when you grew up?"

This makes sense

[eyez]

The entire telemarketing economy would be shattered by a global DNC-- Most people who they actually get to buy their product fit one description: Too polite to hang up.

Telemarketers will absolutely not hang up the phone just by you saying 'no' politely. A national DNC would mean that those people could make a single phone call, and never have to feel bad about wanting to hang up on a telemarketer.

Even so, the nationwide DNC is a good idea, and I'm even more so for it by seeing that they're against it. IMHO, If your entire business model is based on calling people who don't want you to call, then fuck your business.

Many people would, at this point, compare this to spam, Which would almost work, but telemarketing is 1000x worse than spam to me, for a few reasons:

• If you're smart with your email address, you won't get that much spam.
  My personal email address gets 2 spam messages every one to three days. Just, if you have to have your email address posted somewhere, spamproof it a little. I doubt that any of you that refuse to do this go around writing your phone number on public walls...
• You can deal with spam at your leisure
  I work late. I don't get to sleep till around 5am, usually. I don't get woken up to deal with spam 3 hours after i've fallen asleep. I don't deal with spam during dinner. I don't deal with spam while I'm concentrated on a good video game. I don't deal with spam in the middle of sex. It just goes into a small folder in sylpheed and I delete it when i feel like it.
• A fair amount of spam can be filtered out easily
  There actually are a lot of spammers who put an "ADV: " at the beginning of their subject line. Another example is repeat spammers- those who email you every week or so letting you know that your website can be listed on the top 300 search engines for some relatively[1] nominal fee.
• Spam can be very funny
  When you're bored, and you notice an email that says:
  Subject: I JUST GOT LOTR:TTT IN HIGH QUALITY!
  i just went to http://www.theres-no-lotr-here-only-naked-people.c om/lotr/ttt
  AND THEY HAD THE NEW LOTR MOVIE! YOU SHOULD GO THERE TOO!
  Well, at least I got a chuckle out of it.

Spam really doesn't bother me nearly as much as telemarketing. This nationwide DNC list is a very very good thing.

[1] According to Miss Vanessa Lintner, who sends me this important email every few days, although the prices may be high, it will make me a lot more money by having my site listed on over 6,000 search engines, including specialty ones like where-can-i-find-a-cheap-gay-whore.com or scatsearch.net..

Re:IPChains for the Telephon

[bmajik]

What you want is the asterisk pbx system.

http://www.asteriskpbx.org

Write your own AGI script that takes into account things like time of day, ringing caller id, etc etc.

If every handset in your house is an asterisk extension, and asterisk is the only telco-facing system, you will have 100% control of when your phones ring (and how, as asterisk will send any ring-pattern you want)

For legal reasons, you may want to have one other traditional phone plugged into the telco-facing network, with its ringer permanantly off. That way in the event of a PBX failure, you can still dial 911, but the phone will never ring.

I planned on doing this so my grandmother would _always_ go straight to voicemail, with no internal extensions ringing, whenever she tried to call me before noon.

Phone Number of Robert Weintzen, President of DMA

[Dave21212]

This post on the Yahoo BB seems interesting...

212.768.7277, ext. 1604

That is the phone number of Robert Weintzen, President of the Direct Marketers Association. Call him and let him know what we think about his fighting the law.

I'm not sure if it's the right number, but it could be a starting point ! Have fun ;)

Charge anyone for a call

[iamacat]

There were ideas for blocking spam by letting people charge each other for e-mail. Isn't it much easier and more practical with phone calls? Give one an option to press something like *18 ("I ate") once per call that was placed by the other party. It will charge $5 to the caller and credit $4 to receivers account, with a dollar going to the phone company for the trouble. It will also play a recording to the other side that explains to them what happened.

Discouraging telemarketers will be only one application of this technology. For example, people can make a buck answering short computer questions without setting up 900 number or credit card processing. Or, companies with valid, personalized offers for you can show they are serious by paying for your ears.

As for abuses, they will quickly take care of themselves. If a bozo charges everyone for calls, he will be quickly left alone. If you charge a company you have an account with, they will just bill you back for the pleasure and then you will be able to dispute your bill with the government if they did spam you. If you dialed a wrong number - well it's just five bucks. Watch your fingers. Telemarketers on the other hand, if they still exist, will compile their own don't call lists based on their financial losses.

The way to stop telemarketers

[jmorse]

I despise telemarketers. I also despise evangelicals. It's fun to use one against the other. Here's how my typical solicitation call goes:

[Telemarketer]: Good evening, sir! I'm calling from -insert company here- and we'd like to tell you about an amazing new offer on our new -insert product here-!

[Me]: Well, I'd certainly be interested in your -insert product here- but first, I'd like to talk to you about the Lord Jesus Christ(TM) and your future in the Kingdom of Heaven(TM).

[Telemarketer]: huh?

[Me]: Now, sir, are you absolutely sure that your soul will go to Heaven(TM) when you die?

[Telemarketer]: Um, well, ...

[Me]: Because, you know, Jesus(SM) died for your sins, and those who know Him(TM), I mean the True Him(TM) are guaranteed a place in God's(TM) Kingdom(TM) when the Rapture(TM) arrives.

[Telemarketer]: Well, I never, um...

[Me]: And it's a documented fact that the Bible(TM) guarantees that the children of Jehovah(TM) have a place in that Holy Domain(TM). Now sir, do you go to church regularly?

By this time, the telemarketer is so damn disturbed that s/he usually hangs up and I never get a call from them again.

I suppose you could use a telemarketer spiel on the Mormons(TM) and Jehovahs(TM) that come to your door, but they've stopped bugging me since I got my "No Bible Thimpers" sticker from darwinfish.com.

DMA President H. Robert Weintzen Home Phone #

[Anonymous Coward]

212-879-5606

Perhaps Robert would like to hear from everyone
here "exercising their free speech"

Or drop him a snail mail...
265 E. 66th St.
NY, NY 10021

Incorrect

[Zaknafein500]

This is evidently not the case. Missouri AG Jay Nixon has collected a substantial amount of money from out-of-state telemarketers who violate the No Call Law.

http://www.ago.state.mo.us/nocalllaw.htm

Opt-out's not viable?!

[foxtrot]

People who get themselves put on opt-out lists don't like telemarketers. They don't buy from telemarketers. Some of them won't buy from a company that they know engages in telemarketing.

An opt-out list is a list of people who won't buy your product, so you don't have to waste your time selling to them. What's more, it keeps you from reminding people who are sufficiently averse that you telemarket.

And they think an opt-out list would hurt their business?! It can only improve their business!

How mind-boggling.

MO AG versus Miss Cleo

[Just Some Guy]

My favorite entries from that list:

• 7-24-01: Nixon sues TV ad psychic Miss Cleo; says "she should have seen this coming"
• 8-08-01: Miss Cleo ordered to pay $75,000 for calling Missourians after warning from Nixon

Ahhh, Jay Nixon: the only Democrat I've ever voted for.

Why the DMA is fighting this

[AnalogDiehard]

I'll tell you the real reason why the DMA is fighting this.

The FTC and the DoJ would be their worst enemy. If a national DNC policy became official and it is violated, then it is within the fed's jurisdiction to prosecute. The FTC has teeth that the DMA fears.

The DMA wants to keep the status quo of separate state DNC lists because they know that states aren't as likely to come after their members as the feds would and they know that state resources are limited. But if a federal-funded office like the FTC were to get involved...

Ironic that a national organization sues to keep a national law-enforcing office from becoming involved, isn't it?

Missouri's list has been nearly 100% effective

[Mustang Matt]

As a consumer I absolutely love Missouri's list.
I *never* want to receive unsolicited calls.

I have *never* purchased anything through an unsolicited call.

The Missouri No Call list SAVES telemarketing companies money because they don't have to waste their time or mine calling me. I pay for my phone service and I should be in control of who is allowed to use it and who isn't allowed.

The MO NO Call list still lets non-profit orgs and existing business relationships through. I don't really want calls from non-profit groups either, but they are fairly rare.

I did have a weird call today, some company called claiming to be a Domain Notification service and they had some information they wanted to fax me because their email system was down. I couldn't get them to tell me their name. She just kept saying, we're a "domain name notification service."

Consequently, Missouri HB228 is trying to create a No Email list. It has flaws in it's present state but we're working on making it beneficial to everyone except spammers.

Is a national DNC neccesary?

[SmokeSerpent]

Instead of all this "annoy the caller" bologna a lot of people are bragging about on here, two years ago I began to just simply cut off the telemarketer and ask to be placed on their own "do not call" list. I receive very few junk calls nowadays. I make no effort to hide my phone number, and it has been active for ten years.

The only real trouble I had recently was when the TV ratings company decided that they wanted me to report my viewing habits. They will not stop calling you. They will call at all times of the day and evening. They will purposely call 5 times throughout a single day because the person who's been answering the phone might not be "the one that their computer wants to get". They proudly proclaim that they can and do do all this because, since they are not selling anything, they are exempt from the laws regarding telemarketing.