Slashdot Mirror
Linux In Space: Red Hat Rides The Rocket
neiljt writes "BBC News
have a
piece
on NASA experiments to use IP for space missions. The article is a little low-tech, but more details available from NASA (OMNI).
Is this the first Red Hat in space?" It's worth pointing out as well that Debian made the ride nearly six years ago. Still, great news.
...but the shuttle won't crash if it's DDoSed will it? :P
As usual debian beats the nasdeq boys.
blog and junk
"The project will allow mission scientists to use a standard web browser to monitor spacecraft and to swap data with them or their crew."
So what happens when 7337 HaXorz find the conveniently unsercured web interface which lets them control the shuttle robot arm?
that was my first thought, but jokes about the Challenger are a bit... tasteless.
one thing's for sure. It's much better than the 1970's computers running NASA's systems now.
It seems NASA had a Flight Linux project that ended in June 2002. Interestingly enough, they link back to slashdot in their publications listing.
insert half-arsed joke about script-kiddies hacking the space shuttle here in accordance with slashdot standard lameness protocol.
And some of these drones are actually going to get modded +5 funny. *sigh*
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
"To test the technology the Columbia space shuttle was fitted with an embedded PC that has a 233 MHz processor, 128 MB of RAM and a solid-state 144 MB hard drive. " I remember when nase used to be the technology leader...people used to brag about how this product came from nasa...what happened...budget cut backs must be really hurting them if they're sending that computer to space...my dell x5 with 512 mb compact flash can outperform NASA equipment....man i'd love to goto nasa and brag to them about my pda...
I think you mean FDR. The depression was after the 1929 crash. FDR became president in 1933.
I have parents that tell me this all the time. (Along with how they walked to school in the snow uphill...both ways!)
Wouldn't it be good if we could find that Windows machines hadn't yet made it to space. I know orbital missions need ultra-reliability so I wouldn't be surprised if Windows hadn''t yet made it, and with OSX so new and the previous MacOS so unreliable I doubt it's had a shoe-in yet.
Linux - the first consumer OS in space. That would make me smile!
The United States government favors Microsoft products while NASA favors Linux? Hah. Which organization would you trust your tax dollars with more?
You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
Redhat Linux... Extreme computing that's out of this world!
read all about it here
I'm pretty sure that they don't just kick these guys on the street. They'll probably be assigned to some more interesting projects than doing the ping with the spacecraft. It's a win-win for all!
this is a great start!
What's with the slashdot response to nasa articles anyway?
OK. Can we get this straight, please? IP!=Internet. There are these little things on the internet called routers. They allow traffic to pass between things called 'networks'. A router on a network is an OPTIONAL thing. Without a router connected to to The Internet(tm), THERE AIN'T NOBODY GETTING IN. Moving to standard IP is a _good_ thing. It allows them to use 'standard' tools. Rather than writing everything from scratch. I wouldn't even think that they'll be implementing this in 'mission critical systems' until after it's been tested for a _long_ time. Sheesh. I know hackers and script kiddies are an irritant, but NASA ain't all that stupid.
In the case of Debian, it was simply controlling an experiment in the shuttle, whereas now it's being tested as part of the communications system for the ship itself.
BTW, that astronaut lady looks cute. Too bad they couldn't get a better picture of her.
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
What is this, Quake?
What's the difference between the CIA (Culinary Institute of America) and NASA?
CIA teaches cooks and NASA cooks teachers!
What's NASA's favorite soda?
7-Up.
Perhaps Linux needs a 'certified for use in outerspace' logo. I'd slap one of those on my redhat box.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
also was launched into space (or near?), even by linux fans. Sky is not as far as it used to be.
Mods mark parent FUNNY!
and contrary to analog radio transmission which are prone to interferences and background noise/hiss, VOIP actually makes a lot of sense in space. All it requires is a data channel with limited bandwidth (64kbits is plentiful) but short delay, and the voice quality is just as good as with a regular phone call.
Maybe NASA saw in IP a cheaper alternative for astronauts to get pr0n than having to fly (heavier) tabloid magazines to space? :->
i'd love to see the traceroute output on that one ;).
smd4985
"Redhat rides NASAs Rocket"
"Debian eats NASAs pineapple"
"Mandrake tries to put the pin back in."
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Hope they're using the version of RedHat that will be supported after 31st Dec 2003...
./sat-hack ip.of.sat.ellite
:o)
Seriously, it'd be neat.
Sending overflow....
root@satellite# ping www.google.com
PING www.google.com (216.239.53.101) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from www.google.com (216.239.53.101): icmp_seq=1 ttl=41 time=5173 ms
64 bytes from www.google.com (216.239.53.101): icmp_seq=2 ttl=41 time=3111 ms
64 bytes from www.google.com (216.239.53.101): icmp_seq=3 ttl=41 time=4831 ms
64 bytes from www.google.com (216.239.53.101): icmp_seq=4 ttl=41 time=4251 ms
--- www.google.com ping statistics ---
4 packets transmitted, 4 received, 0% packet loss, time 4012ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 3111/5173/4622/2722.195 ms
What happens when the satellite goes round the other side of the world though? Dropped packets?
Get your own free personal location tracker
Why would this be bad for Linux?
And why should the government pay to keep people working in jobs that have become obsolete, when the same people could do useful work elsewhere? It's not as if a Nasa engineer will be out of a job for long.
They could take all the recently obsolete PCs in the world, strap on solar panels and an antenna made from an old whisky tin with gaffer tape, install linux, mesh software and a wifi card, and send them into random orbits with a giant steam catapult. Problem solved. Then they could spend their budget on new spaceships, so the rest of us could go up and play.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
all the ip packets they got were discarded by the firewall as martian.
Are they admining the Satelites with Webmin now?
"If you have done 6 impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways" -- hhgg
my Girlfriend rides the rocket o_O
NASA admins favor MS products. As a matter of fact, there was a memorandum issued by NASA director Dias at Goddard that was to consider switching all the email protocols based on MS servers...get this...for a better security reason.
NASA scientists and system admins, on the other hand, profusely demonstrated against the move. Not many scientists in the same mind uses MS for number crunching, etc. Most of them use either Solaris or linux (predominantly RedHat for better support, blah blah). I would pick debian over RH any day though.
It's worth pointing out as well that Debian made the ride nearly six years ago. Still, great news.
Isn't that the same version that is in stable now?
Did you hear about the hockey game at the leper colony?
There was a face off in the corner.
Ok, I read that little attached blurb, and I'm a little curious about all the references to "Debian GNU/Linux". That article was dated April 1, 1997. Was Bruce Perens and the gang using the phrase GNU/Linux back in 1997, or is this some revisionist history?
First Linux on one space shuttle. Then on all of them. Who knows, one day Linux may power all space vehicles. Maybe perhaps it will even be installed on FTL starship computers someday. When that day comes, we can finally say that... Linux is ready for the Enterprise.
* ducks *
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
Rumor has it Windows 98 was originally slated for launch but NASA officials feared too many Shuttle repair missions to reboot the derned thing.
Am I the only one who things that "Red Rocket, Red Rocket!" would have been a better title for this posting?
That's all.
-- DrZaius - Minister of Sciences and Protector of the Faith
Maybe if you have a few billion dollars burning a hole in your pocket. The normal link between the Shuttle and the ground is through the TDRS (Tracking and Data Relay System) satellite network. This is a set of satellites in geosynchronous orbit that relay data between NASA spacecraft and the WSGT (White Sands Ground Terminal) in New Mexico. This is not something that you are going to emulate with a Pringles can and some surplus microwave equipment.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Was this post meant just for me?
Thanks guys. You really shouldn't have.
- Hail to our fearless misleader! Fool speed ahead!
One might consider the task of engineering current technology to withstand difficult environments to be just as hi-tech and valid as merely getting the most Ghz out of a chip.
Some interesting links:
Future:
Interplanetary Internet (IPN)
IP in Space
Now:
SCPS gateway runs on FreeBSD
SCPS: Space Communications Protocol Standards
-= If you fight Dragons long enough, you will become a Dragon =-
---------------
A guy goes to the pub, and says to his friend "You won't believe what happened. I was taking a short cut along the railway track, and I found a girl tied to it. I untied her, and then we had sex over and over again, all the positions, everything.
His friend replies, "That's great: did you get a blow job?"
"Oh, no: I never found her head."
-----------
Q: What's better than winning 4 gold medals in the special olympics?
A: not being RETARDED.
-----------
Billy and Jimmy come running down the stairs Christmas Morning. They race past the kitchen, where their mother is cooking up a delicious breakfast. Out the window they can see a perfect blanket of snow gently falling to the ground. Running to the living room, they are greeted by their father, who is stoking up a roaring fire. Then they see the tree, laden with gifts that spread across the floor. The paper starts flying. When the dust has settled, Billy has a huge mound of presents: G.I. Joe action figures, Nerf guns, a Playstation, and tons of candy. Then he looks over at Jimmy, who has recieved ONE MATCHBOX CAR and is pushing it back and forth across the floor in the corner.
"Gosh," says Billy, "I got a lot more presents than you did this year."
"Yeah," replies Jimmy, "well, at least I don't have cancer."
----------------
hehe, sick jokes are so funny
"The majority is always sane, Louis." -- Nessus
http://slashdot.jp
So, in essence, we will be seeing an article in the future on how someone hacked into the Shuttle (Just like the Mars Lander was) and was telling the shuttle to do some (driving) donuts in space?
Also, if the shuttle network goes down? How can they get e-mail support from the volunteer Linux Czars?
Dolemite
Save the World! Use a Quote!
Here is a good FAQ about IP in space is available here. It says "This is a misconception that is brought about by confusing IP, a layer 3 network protocol, with TCP, a layer 4 transport protocol."
Or perhaps we have been invaded by the British. The way things are going in the USA now, I can only hope...
"It was hell!" recalls former child.
NetBSD/spacestation.
-- "Tradition is the illusion of permanence."
You think NASA can afford the $1000/node licensing that IBM^H^H^RedHat extorts?
Thank you for your quip.
I'd still love to go up but if this is as close as I get then I can be happy.
it's not windows
Here is the proof.
From the DWN (January 21st):
[...]
Debian older than Humanity? Tomas Pospisek reported that the Debian Swirl can be cleary seen on one of the pictures taken by NASA's orbiting Hubble Space Telescope. For example, check the lower right hand corner of the image. Perhaps this is proof that the seeds for Debian were sowed long before the dawn of humanity.
[...]
fRinK
"Ride the pig gir."
Radiation hardening is the serious issue.
:)
:)
"Alpha" hardening is not.
Alpha particles can be stopped by a piece of paper. All you have to do is put your computer in a brown paper bag and it will be safe from alpha particles.
What you need to worry about are cosmic rays... they flip bits routinely in space electronics. (And, if you close your eyes in space, you will see little flashes of light due to cosmic ray hits in your eyes and maybe in your nervous system.)
That using Linux is really Rocket Science !
Buying comm equipment that uses some "weirdass nasa protocol" is extra super expensive... besides they want different spacecraft to be able to relay data, especially at Mars. With IP a NASA rover can relay data to an ESA spacecraft and the ESA spacecraft can relay the data back to Earth.
The actual commands sent to spacecraft are still some weirdass NASA-only command set, and everything's encrypted, and you need to drop down a few hundred million for a tracking station to even have a shot at 'hacking' a spacecraft.... so I don't think this stuff is easy to hack.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
as i try to implement F/OSS solutions when people ask, "what is this linux thing?", all i have to say is it is used by nasa in space in mission critical operations. "did they use windows?". yeah, the astronauts get bored and need their solitaire.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Here's a nice addition to the "Linux Gay Conspiracy" troll if there ever was one!
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Genesis uses Redhat for all of its ground support computers... and used Linux for the mission design... Cassini is about to switch to Linux for the spacecraft navigation. Redhat is very literally used in mission critical applications. Windows machines aren't even allowed on the same network.
I used to work on a satellite project. New processors don't have the history to justify their use. Nothing gets used in space without a boatload of documentation on past performance.
One of the best chips to use in space is the 386. The manufacuring process makes it naturally radiation resistant to enormous levels.
Remember, Voyager was launched with 64K of memory. It is still providing useful data today.
Don't be too quick to paint with that broad brush.
NASA is a large and somewhat disparate organization. Especially when it comes to IT resources. There are large-scale official directions and policies for a NASA Center's IT (and with One NASA - perhapse the entire organization) that may or may not hold true when it comes to individual Divisions or projects.
For example, Johnson Space Center (JSC) has been a pretty solid Microsoft shop over the past several years. Much of this was spearheaded by JSC's former CIO, Jack Garman who set an aggressively pro-Microsoft policy. The policy was so aggressive, that it lead to the infamous "Mac Attack" jihad at JSC - eventually leading to a Congressional inquiry. Yet JSC is not all-Microsoft.
JSC has a variety of IT resources in its environment. JSC's datacenter is chock full of hardware running various flavors of Unix. Many engineering environments include Unix workstations / labs to churn the various modeling and CAD applications needed (although this is another common battlefield between Unix and WinNT/2K). Macs are still around - and somewhat more common than during the old Jihad days. Linux pops up more and more often with "Linux compatability" becoming more a concern for IT architects.
So does NASA favor Linux? No. Not in a policy sense (or at least, not yet). But NASA is just the kind of environment where Linux has and continues to flourish.
Linux will be used as _the_ operating system to control an future satellite launched by the Naval Post Graduate school. Linux will not just be used to control just one experiment or a laptop in the shuttle, it is going to be running the entire satellite.i cal/SSC02- I-4_Paper.pdf
Yes, the hardware is very modest (486 processor) because of the availibity of space tested hardware and radiation tolerance. However, it's rather exciting that an entire satellite will be controlled with Linux, both in orbit, and at the ground station. See this PDF paper for details of this project.
http://www.sp.nps.navy.mil/npsat1/techn
Heat dissipation in space is a factor. I recall something about a regular plastic flashlight that MELTED in the shuttle bay because without an atmosphere even the few watts generated by a flashlight won't go no where.
If this PC will also be used in a vacuum, heat dissipation will become a major problem. Cooling a 70W processor would be a major engineering challenge and no, a simple heatsink fan won't cut it.
If so inclined, try putting your (dude, i got a) Dell into a vacuum chamber and see how long it lasts.
You dont know what you are talking about.
NASA uses IBM AP-101 chips in the shuttle. See here and here
Also most space based applications use 8/16 bit chips because most spaced based applications don't require more than that and the wider the CPU register, the more parity bits are required. Thats why most satellites use 8-16 bit chips.
The robot used on mars was an 8 bit 8085.
Please get your facts straight before posting.
Asshole
Though your comment was made before this accident, it just didn't seem right leaving it without saying something.
You know where you are? You're in the $PATH, baby. You're gonna get executed!
Must be Bill's "rocket", eh?
Fortune suggests uses for YOUR favorite UNIX commands!
Try:
ar t "God"
drink matter (Bourne Shell)
rm God
man: Why did you get a divorce? (C shell)
date me (anything up to 4.3BSD)
make "heads or tails of all this"
who is smart
(C shell)
If I had a ) for every dollar of the national debt, what would I have?
sleep with me (anything up to 4.3BSD)
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