Advocates Join to Promote Desktop Linux

phatvibez writes "Cnet is running a story that says 'Several companies have joined to launch a consortium to promote Linux for desktop computers, a significant expansion for an operating system that today fits more comfortably on servers.' This is great news, I hope they actually do something and we see some great stuff come from this!" Another submission on this note: TweetZilla writes "According to ExtremeTech, Suse is taking a play from Xandros. Crossover Office and Plugin are now bundled into Suse's desktop to provide Windows and Office compatibility." Update: 02/04 18:18 GMT by T : Here's a link to the consortium's web site.

Comments

All KDE companies

[tjansen]

I guess the interesting parts is that all distros (Suse, Mandrake, Xandros) are KDE distros. So what is it? Some kind of KDE League revival with some extras (OpenOffice & CrossWeaver)?

Re:All KDE companies

[f97magu]

If you check the homepage of the consortium, you'll see that Ximian is there too. So it's not all KDE companies.

Re:All KDE companies

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Actually, I suspect that the reason Red Hat aren't part of it is that they don't really care that much about Linux on the desktop. They're on a fair number of desktops, of course, because they have the best-known distro, but they're basically a server software company. They probably figure that their core business is doing fine, why try to to expand into other areas? Let the others take the risks.

Whether or not this is a sound strategy, only time will tell.

Re:All KDE companies

[KDan]

My desktop is running redhat 8.0 with KDE 3... it's the sweetest desktop I've ever seen. Screenshot here. Fair enough, I've switched to KDE because it just feels faster and smoother and prettier (probably more a matter of opinion than anything else), but the original Bluecurve that RH8.0 came with was definitely desktop-oriented and it looked *very* good for an out-of-the-box desktop - better than windows, for sure.

So much for redhat not bothering about the desktop.

Daniel

Re:All KDE companies

[Chris Croome]

I suspect that the reason Red Hat aren't part of it is that they don't really care that much about Linux on the desktop

I'm not so sure that is the case, according to this article a RedHat Corporate Desktop distro is due out later this year.

The juicy bits for those who don't want to bother reading the whole thing:

Red Hat executives told CRN that Red Hat won't attempt to unseat Windows and Office but will aim its desktops at targeted customer segments such as call centers at financial institutions needing only Word and Excel, or highly technical audiences that use one or two productivity applications.

Dell is in discussions with Red Hat and plans to load the 32-bit workstation on its Precision workstations, Dell said.

Sources in the Linux channel are cautiously optimistic about the desktop aspirations of startups but say endorsements by Sun Microsystems and Red Hat give the Linux desktop more credibility. Sun also plans to debut its Linux desktop this quarter.

One thing that is needed.

[AltGrendel]

An "Outlook/Exchange killer".

I know that there are supposed to be some out there, but I haven't found any that really work at this point. Example: The Evolution connector "cheats", it reads and processes OWA pages.

Re:One thing that is needed.

[intermodal]

An "Outlook/Exchange killer".

Such programs usually prefer to be called "worms"

Re:One thing that is needed.

[vsavatar]

I have to agree here. One of the reasons that a lot of our clients wouldn't consider a Linux solution is because of the lack of groupware solutions available for Linux. See, we have a lot of law firm and accounting firm clients that heavily use their calendars and our clients' lawyers' secretaries frequently proxy to their bosses' calendars to see when appointments are. Also, shared To Do Lists like those found in Groupwise are also pretty heavily used at our clients' offices. Until there's a real competitor to Exchange and Groupwise, we'd have a very difficult time selling a Linux solution to one of these clients. Still, I use Linux for my personal desktop because it meets all my needs. The only thing that kept me from using it before Redhat 8.0 was the lack of a good financial manager, which Gnucash serves as now.

Re:One thing that is needed.

[McAlister]

Well, You'll see one coming shortly from Net Integration Technologies - we're currently in Beta for a product that allows Outlook, Webmail and Evolution to all talk to each other, exchange Calendaring information (including delegating user rights, etc.), assign Todo's, integrate contact lists, and pretty much all of the other commonly used features of Exchange.

(We're the same people who brought you WvDial, and a bunch of other stuff - check out open.nit.ca for more of the projects that we have done.

Re:One thing that is needed.

[Wolfier]

>The Evolution connector "cheats", it reads and
>processes OWA pages.

How do you know Outlook/Exchange is not doing the same?

Re:One thing that is needed.

[swordboy]

An "Outlook/Exchange killer".

Lotus Notes.

The fact that IBM has yet to release a native client only shows how uninformed they are. The only reason that they use Linux in the first place is because it saves them from spending development dollars on their own *nix solution. While I'm certainly not complaining about this (both OSS and IBM benefit from this relationship), I'd really like them to be a 'pioneer' like they claim to be.

And why does this story have anything to do with Linux, which has nothing in the way of a graphical environment merged into the tree, as of yet. KDE/X and Gnome/X are the current leaders here. And those can be used on more than just Linux.

Gratuitous alternative desktop environment suggestion: don't let applications save user documents to 'just anywhere' like Windows does. Then, create a user-level system browser that keeps the user out of the stuff that is irrelevant to them.

With the current Windows environment, I see the same thing all the time. Although recent versions of Windows Explorer will tell user's that they shouldn't be picking around in PROGRAM FILES, the SAVE feature doesn't. So Joe User decides to start saving his office documents in C:\PROGRAM FILES\MICROSOFT OFFICE because that makes sense to him when he/she becomes accustomed to the PC for the first time. If this person only had the choice of saving it to a document store (of all or some of the PC's user's), this confusion wouldn't be there.

Then create a system-level browser that can view things at the file level - for people who need to do this. I certainly don't need this functionality more than 5% of the time and I support this for a living. Separate the user-level and system-level browsing.

And don't even get me started on a standard for program installs. Currently, a Windows install can put crap in the following places:

1) Start Menu
2) Task Bar
3) Quick Launch
4) Desktop

Not to mention the fact that most menus and folders are full of gratuitous advertising. There's no reason that Easy CD Creator needs to add a ROXIO folder in the Program Files or in the Start Menu. As a matter of fact, the start menu should have a UTILTIES folder in it and the program should be required to install a shortcut there and only there. A splash screen could accomodate the uninstall shortcut and related documentation. There's no reason that every software package get it's own start menu group...

Am I rambling? How do I contribute to usability improvements? Linux is at its infancy and has the chance to do everything right.

Re:One thing that is needed.

[NivenHuH]

I'm sorry, but Lotus Notes is DEFINATELY not an Exchange killer. Having been recently moved over to Notes from Exchange, I'd definately (as well as the remainder of my co-workers) take Exchange back any day of the week. Notes has a steamy pile of pooh for a database structure, everything is server based w/o the option of retreiving mail to your local client, it botches mail headers, amongst other flaws. I'm sure there are a TON of other end-users that can empathise with me.

Re:One thing that is needed.

[Plug]

Because you can turn off OWA and it still works.

What about Gentoo?

[fudgefactor7]

I was kind of surprised to not see Gentoo's name listed there. Especially since Gentoo was designed from the ground up to be a desktop Linux distro (as opposed to server.) Plus I just plain ol' like Gentoo, and get wood whenever I have the opportunity to pimp them. ;)

Re:What about Gentoo?

[fudgefactor7]

That's quite true about the "RTFM" comment, but whenever I have a wacky question they have always responded with appropriate help. The Gentoo dudes are "the good guys" and deserve more help.

Re:What about Gentoo?

[borgdows]

Gentoo is a pain to install ... and even more for a Joe user (isn'it what desktop Linux is all about)

Re:What about Gentoo?

[subk]

i wouldn't say its a *pain* but you certainly have to have the documentation... if you read the instructions its a beatifully reliable, simple process.. you just have to know how to emerge and build a kernel.

Re:What about Gentoo?

[Twister002]

The documentation still lacks some things and assume a LOT. I ended up reading a lot more of the XFree86 and kernal documentation than I did the Gentoo docs. I never posted in the support forums (which I should have) but found a LOT of helpful information in there as well DESPITE the forum search engine. ;)

I will say this, Gentoo does give the installer a sense of accomplishment. I felt proud once I had rebooted, logged in, and saw fluxbox come up. :)

Re:What about Gentoo?

[axxackall]

One of next big things for Gentoo must be Joe-oriented installer. Unfortunately, there is no agreement yet about what it should look like and how to develop it. But I can predict that will happen this year.

URL

[Geek Boy]

http://www.desktoplinuxconsortium.com/

Not a whole lot of info posted there yet.

Other parties

[faeryman]

The article doesn't say so, but the Samba and Ximian teams are involved too.

Focus Should Be on Replacement Apps

[syntap]

Here's something interesting from the article:

" SuSE and Red Hat are aiming Linux for developers and for employees using computers for limited functions, such as entering information onto a back-end system or fielding calls from customers placing orders by phone calls."

Even if an employee's job description shows limited computer use, employees also use computers for Internet browsing on breaks, checking their email, reading company memos in the company's standardized file format (likely Office), stock trading in off-time, pr0n, whatever.

In order to be successful, the group will hopefully make it clear that an OSS desktop can do whatever their MS desktop can do (and more), and cite examples from an overall workday of how something done in Windows is done in Linux.

Hope and pray...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

...that people understand a User Interface is as much a science as it is an art. It is something that takes skill and talent.

A good place ot start understanding about design huristics is www.humanfactors.com/home/default.asp

With that said, after coding GUI's in Swing for 4 years (doing other non-code stuff now) focusing on productivity and usability for the end-user, I simply love Mas OSX's Aqua skin and the design of most Apple products. Very usable. A pleasure to look at. And a guide for any GUI developer to learn from. Search Apple's site for a design guide.

Groups Provides / Teaches Linux Desktop to Public

[mrs clear plastic]

Free Geek, in Portland, Oregon does provide Linux as a desktop solution to those who are not computer literate.

Free Geek, formed as a response to the growing problem of disposal of obsolete computers, has a program to take discarded computers, fix them up,
load them with Debian Linux with Openoffice, and then give them to those in need.

Parts of the program include mandatory volunteer time for those who wish the free computers. This volunteer time does include taking computers apart, testing the components, assembling the computers, loading them with a Debian image over the network, and then basic Linux training.

Many of the people who partake in the program have never had a computer in their life. Almost all of them are not linux/server/geek literate when they walk in the door. When they walk out, they at least know enough to use the computer for basic desktop functions as word processing, email, and using the web on the Internet.

This can show that at a grass-roots level, promoting Linux at the desktop can work.

Mark

How about a consortium....

[Anonymous Coward]

...to improve Desktop Linux? The problem is not promotion at this stage. Everything's in perpetual "almost there" stage.

Now mod me a troll because I said something bad about Linux.

I installed linux twice...

[LordYUK]

And both times I went back to Windows. Windows has software that I want. Windows has my games. Some of you will say that "linux has WineX", which is true. But it wasnt worth the trouble, for me at least. So basically I decided that I had nothing to show for being on Linux, and went back to Windows, because it was easier, and it worked. When linux can run, out of the box, every new title (that the computers specification state it should anyway) without fuss, I might go back. And before you flame me, realize that I probably represent an absurd percentage of the windows crowd, who couldnt care less about their OS, they just want their stuff to run.

Re:I installed linux twice...

[Anonymous Coward]

And I might consider using Windows if everything worked without fuss. My wife spent four hours trying to install TurboTax recently. Two hours with an Intuit tech support person. Never got it to work even after downloading every win2k sp available.

In my experience, that's par for the course.

Re:I installed linux twice...

[bryanthompson]

This is my third time trying linux, on Redhat 8. I'm microsoft free, and finding it somewhat difficult to stay here. The main reason is taht I'm a little afraid to ask. Any time a 'newbie' asks for help, it's assumed that they're not worthy of the knowledge or something. I'm not sure of the mentallity of it, but it really makes it difficult.
The lack of software really doesn't bother me that much. all i did on windows is Battlefield 1942 and the webdesign stuffs. Now i use JEdit for java, text editing webpages, and Gimp for graphics. The only thing i'm missing is Battlefield.
The reason I always came back to windows in the past was out of laziness. First of all, it's really a steep learning curve, unless all you want to do is email and browse teh internet. Stuff like changing my resolultion, fixing my soundcard, and figuring out the file system held me back before.
Anyway, thats just my story. I'm sure there's a lot more people who try to switch, and for one reason or another just find it easier to give in and put windows back on. If there was more of a willingness to help newbies understand the basics without making them feel like morons, I beleive there'd be a lot more perminent switchers to linux.

Re:I installed linux twice...

[stratjakt]

Rebooting the system just to play or try out a game for a few minutes (or even hours) is a joke. Most people I know who do this spend all their time in Windows, and just have linux there in case a geek happens to be looking.

You cant brag about your months of continuous uptime in linux if you have to reboot just to play a game of $WHATEVER. You also cant tell people about the windows licensing dough they'll save. All you do is complicate their lives with more software they have to figure out.

Office apps will get linux into cubicles. That's what this latest 'desktop consortium' is aiming for.

99.999% hardware supported and a fast, reliable native API for game development (something better than SDL, less generic than OpenGL, and not a DirectX clone) will get it into the home.

Re:I installed linux twice...

[Spoing]

Anyway, thats just my story. I'm sure there's a lot more people who try to switch, and for one reason or another just find it easier to give in and put windows back on. If there was more of a willingness to help newbies understand the basics without making them feel like morons, I beleive there'd be a lot more perminent switchers to linux.

Keep a few things in mind when dealing with the 'Read The F#@%!# Manual' attitude;

1. The new elete: Much of the time, the person feeding you hell is also a newbie -- just a lighter shade of green. They just haven't figured out that they don't know jack. Since they have put in the time to learn ~something~, they think that you should too. Giving you the answer would somehow be cheeting them. (Don't ask, it's human nature. Ex: Ask someone if you can give something they worked on to someone else.)

2. Insecure alpha geek: This is the next phase that many folks go through. Once they figure out that it is nearly impossible to know much about any OS plus the hardware and the applications, many decide that they need to flaunt the knowledge that they do have. Compared to the elete newbies you will get more out of an alpha geek, but expect that quite a few details will be missing intentionally. An insecure alpha geek will ask you questions that are not related to your problem at hand. It is difficult to know when you are getting the runaround from an alpha geek. Be nice to them and don't make them look foolish if you can avoid it.

3. While RTFM is usually hostile, sometimes it is really ment to mean "Read The Fine Manual". If you find the answer yourself, you'll be more capable of handling the next problem that comes up. Complaints on ask.slashdot.org about folks not using Google and(!) Usenet forums are usually valid.

4. When asking a question, make sure that you read and post only to public forums. It is rude to jump into a forum, ask a basic question, then end your message with "Please email me because I won't be back here anytime soon". Not only is this treating others as if they are your personal lackys, it shows that you are not worthy of help (lazy), and are greedy since private emails rarely show up in search engines for others to use later.

5. When you get a response say "Thanks for the help", don't gripe, even if the help is not very helpful! Ask for more details if the person skimped. A private email is OK here, though please repost the response if it helped you.

6. Find and trust folks who do not take themselves too seriously. This can be anyone from a guru through to another newbie who just happened to encounter the problem you did the other day. Everyone knows something that someone else has no clue about.

Re:I installed linux twice...

[AnyoneEB]

Try linuxquestions.org. I've had good luck getting answers there.

Imagine a.... What's the word?

[Tsar]

Several companies have joined to launch a consortium to promote Linux for desktop computers...

So how are they joined? How would one describe such a joining? Is there a term for it, perhaps? Since Linux has largely Western European roots, and has taken on somewhat mythic proportions to many of us, and these companies are doing something quite heroic... is there some character in Western European mythology, some hero, perhaps, after which we could name such a grouping, or cluster?

I sure wish I could think of something appropriate...

Re:Imagine a.... What's the word?

[bellings]

Achilles?

Desktop Linux

[chunkwhite86]

Ok, so we have a consortium for this now. Great. Whatever. What the community really needs is a large company (IBM, HP, whoever) that will provide commercial desktop support for a desktop version of Linux. Whether that's Suse, Gentoo, or Mandrake, or some other player, doesnt really matter.

What matters is having a financially stable commercial backer who has the resources to support large desktop installations with rapid deployment tools and on-site service workers. Then we will start seeing large corporations who have thousands of desktop PC's migrating to Linux en masse.

Hardware Support

[Anonymous Coward]

This is all well and good and I'm excited about it, it's a step in the right direction. The only thing that I could add would be to bring in the hardware manufacturers, Hardwares like Digital Camera, Printer, Webcam, etc.

An avarage user would like to have that installation CD comes with the digikam that they just purchased. they are not savy enough to download 20 different tarballs and rpms to get it going.

Re:Hardware Support

[Mr. Shiny And New]

Printing support has improved a lot over the last 4 years. For example, my modern, consumer, non-Ps printer is detected by the Mandrake setup easily. It just works, pretty much flawlessly. I had less trouble sharing it from my linux server so that other linux servers can print (basically, CUPS just detects it), than I did getting a Windows computer to print to it (this is probably Samba's fault, since the hoops required to get a windows printer driver set up are crazy).

I agree that for new hardware it can be tricky, but there's no reason that a printer manufacturer couldn't provide a new cups driver for their printer.

why do they always include this

[b17bmbr]

Most agree that Linux is too technical for average desktop computer users...

bullshit, installation might be, but not use. of course, windows instalation is a PITA. linux wins installation hands down. this is pure FUD. anyone with basic computer skills will have little trouble transitioning. in fact, the less skills, the better, since they will have not have to break lots of bad habits.
for those of us that have been using linux ON THE DESKTOP for a few years now, are happy to see this. this is a huge thing. m$ see's it too. it is now a real possibility.

linux is now a legitimate option

What I would like to see in desktop linux.

[secondsun]

Before I get into my rant, I would like to explain my credintials. I am a CS major en route to GA tech (currently enrolled at Middle GA College), and I have been running linux for 5 years now. I am proficient with Java, Basic, C++, apache, Tomcat, Adobe Premiere, and general computer maintainance /upgrades. Ok now onto what Linux neds for the Desktop.

More hardware support! I have a Radeon 7500 AIW and gettin VIVO to work was evil and a half. Output to TV was worse, (framebuffer crashes and the like).

Multimedia support, Real One Player, Xine, XMMS, mplayer do alot here, but it could be better. Real One is slow and buggy (but better than nothing and now it has fullscreen support), Xine needs to be more user friendly (to be a desktop candidate) and mplayer needs a good, consistant frontend (at least it is stable and fast as hell though). I had no problem with command line though, and associating files with it in kde was a snap.

Video Editing needs to exist. Cinelerra is ok for now (I never got kino to work), but it is slow, unstable, and lacks many features (like chroma keying for green-screen effects). I did manage to create a video project though to completion on my box, but it was not easy.

What does Linux have that makes it a Windows competitor? One word, KDE. Konq is an awesome web browser and file manager (kills anything the explorer can do) Kicker is way more useful than the XP task bar, and themeing is easy. I would give Bill Gate's left arm for these featurs to be ported to Windows.

Oh yeah, Linux is also way faster than XP ever dreamed of being (gentoo w/ prelinking anyone?).

SecondSun

PS before I get anyone flaming me about GNOME, 5 years ago GNOME was slow and unstable. I went to KDE and have no other experience with GNOME, and I know nothing about GNOME. I am sure by now it is much different than it was back then and that it has many features, but I still use KDE exclusivly.

Re:What I would like to see in desktop linux.

[int69h]

More hardware support!

With such a long impressive list of credentials, surely you must know that getting hardware manufacturers to release the specs needed to support their hardware is about as fun as a trip to the dentist.

Re:What I would like to see in desktop linux.

[Troll_Kamikaze]

PS before I get anyone flaming me about GNOME, 5 years ago GNOME was slow and unstable. I went to KDE and have no other experience with GNOME, and I know nothing about GNOME. I am sure by now it is much different than it was back then and that it has many features, but I still use KDE exclusivly.

Let's imagine a corporate IT manager considering a large-scale Linux desktop deployment:

Before I get anyone flaming me about Linux desktops, 5 years ago Linux desktops were slow and unstable. I stayed with Windows and have no other experience with Linux desktops. I am sure by now it is much different than it was back then and that it has many features, but I still use Windows exclusivly.

Need Hardware Manufactors as Well

[skreuzer]

For this to really work, they should get some computer manufactors behind it.

If this consortium developes a friendly version of Linux aimed at desktop users and are successful at promoting it, they consumer would still have to install it on their system and in some cases configure hardware and whatnot.

If they were to work with Dell, or HP/Compaq were they would be able to ship "Restore" and "Recover" CD's with the machines, when something goes wrong, the user would simply be able to boot off the CD and restore the computer into the state it was when it was brought home. The operating system would be installed, all the hardware would be configured.

Is this a good thing?

[tarnin]

Really... is this a good idea? To make my mom use linux youd have to bloat the heck out of it, add in apps that make no sense in the way they work (outlook, etc..) and have a bunch of pointless fluff. All those things are what make windows horrible for people who have more than a basic knowledge of systems.

We, as knowledgeable computer users, want a more streamlined, less fluffed, more stable working enviroment. We know this, apparently others dont. Why this big push for Linux on desktops for the masses im not sure. It want created for this and making it like this is only going to make it bloated and unstable. Is this what we really want out of Linux? Do we want it filled with fluff and unwieldly apps just so Mom and Pop feel comfortable in it?

Now, I know someone is going to say "But you can install it like this and this and..." well that is true, but if the push is successful and it starts to seriously permiate the desktop market, don't you think that most if not ALL the major *nix distrubuters will start to package it like that?

Re:Is this a good thing?

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Excuse me but you've got this completely wrong. A desktop distro does not need to be bloated. Quite the opposite. A Linux desktop installation does not need apache with php and MySql. It does not need an smtp server. It needs to present an environment that a non-technical user can use. There has to be an easy email application, a text editor, an Office package and a fast web browser that they can use to see EVERY SINGLE page on the Internet. The only distro I can see coming even close at this point is Redhat 8, but it has other shortcomings, especially in the multimedia area. There is no Linux distribution out there suited for non techies. The problem is that all the software is out there but no one, until now, has bothered to make it stick together so that the user does not have to install packages through a completely alien (compared to windows) interface. I also completely fail to understand your argument about fluff - when I last checked, KDE and Gnome both came with such "fluff" - including word processors, browsers, mail clients, etc.

Re:Is this a good thing?

[Otter]

We, as knowledgeable computer users, want a more streamlined, less fluffed, more stable working enviroment. We know this, apparently others dont.

Apparently I don't. I just got a few more data points, typed them into Excel and my p-values and graphs instantly updated. (The results got worse, but Microsoft can't be entirely blamed for that.) And I should be prohibited from having that kind of integration in Linux because -- why?

I dislike intrusive, counterproductive features ("It looks like you're writing a letter!") as much as anyone. But I appreciate well-thought-out usability and features (damn, Excel rules) and don't see why they should be shunned so you can tell yourself how hard-core you are. Hey, I've got an .fvwmrc file in my home directory. Doesn't mean it ever needs to be used again.

More useless committee fluff

[Reality Master 101]

Assuming anyone wants something to actually HAPPEN, how about a consortium to promote third party developers to port their applications to Linux?

Want a sign that Linux is really moving to the desktop? The sign will be when the major application developers (Quicken, Symantec, etc) care about porting their applications there.

How about this consortium produce a high quality porting kit for Windows applications, with high quality documentation?

Re:More useless committee fluff

[Mr. Sketch]

Ever heard of Mainsoft? They have a great porting framework for porting windows programs to several unixes including linux. That's what our company uses and I'd have to say it's pretty good and it even handles MFC, ATL, and COM. It reads the Visual Studio .dsp files and essentially just rebuilds the project for linux (or solaris, hpux, etc).

Such Killers exist, or will soon

[DesScorp]

The German government is funding the development of such Exchange/Outlook type groupware via the KDE people. You've also got Evolution as an Outlook replacement, and Oracle has a groupware server that Outlook can plug right into, and it has all of Exchange's functionality. Plus, there's the Bynari solution, which also replicates Exchange's functionality.

There are more an more alternatives every day.

And I swore I'd stop feeding the trolls...

[LordYUK]

Okay Mr Anon, apparently our views on the "computer experience" differ, which as I tried to convey in my post, is understandable. I am not forcing Windows down your throat, nor am I stating that my OS of choice is superior to yours. I am merely stating that for what I do with a computer, Linux quite frankly sucks. Does that mean I think that Linux is useless? Not at all. Just it doesnt do what I need it to do.

By the way, next time you flame, grow some balls and dont post anonymously...

Re:Dumbing down linux, so idiots can use it!

[mugnyte]

The distros need to extend themselves to the idiot/grandma/secretary types everywhere. These people may not be looking for files with 'find', but they hold the checkbooks.

When a large company decides on a desktop, we're talking about a huge sweep in user base, everything from the techies that grumble or praise to the pointy-haired boss that is looking for the 'Any' key.

I'm not talking about slick windows to do what easy enough command-line params could do. Desktops need to be turnkey all the time. Even the concept of a WM is going to spin people. I advocate removing most concepts from end-users reaching them. Hence, why Apple wants OS X to be a bit on the "can't get there from here" appearance.

Cookie-cutter, die-cut desktops have a huge market, and the dumber they are, the more easily they're adopted by the masses. WebTV, AOL, MS XP and countless other ideas prove this again and again.

mug

huh?

[Lxy]

Please, somebody explain my error:

SuSE with Crossover Office: $129
Xandros: $99
Windows XP Home Edition: $99

I forgot... what's the point again? Why can't I install Windows XP and have 100% Windows compatibility, then install Cygwin-KDE for 100% linux compatibility?

I think it's great that Windows apps are running better and better on linux, but they run even better on Windows. I like linux and I like its software, but if you have to pay the same amount either way, I'd hardly call a $99 linux distro a reason to switch to linux.

Re:huh?

[Troll_Kamikaze]

The problem is that Windows applications are not running better and better on Windows. They crash the same as 5 years ago.

"Hi, my name is Todd and I haven't used any version of Windows since Windows 98, so obviously I'm qualified to pronounce the NT kernel unstable."

Flame on, dude. With attitudes as well informed as yours, the Linux community is sure to make progress on the desktop.

As much as I like the idea of Gentoo

[Twister002]

I'm not a big fan of it. I don't think it's even close to a desktop replacement OS.

I like the portage system and the fact that all the apps are compiled optimized for your system. You don't have to worry about dependancies since the scripts take care of it for you.

I don't like the fact that I typed "emerge kde" and 48 hours later , and after seeing numerous "cannot create file due to a permission error" messages fly by, it still hadn't "emerged". Granted it was compiling on an old Celeron-333, but it had 524MB of RAM to do with as it will. That was just for KDE, I had spent 2 days installing and configuing the system just to get fluxbox to come up.

I couldn't even get fluxbox to configure itself for any user other than root, had to go edit all the config files manually and the menu generator didn't work at all.

Compare this to most peoples experiences installing Mandrake, SuSE, and Red Hat (usually about an hour to 2 hours) and I think you can see why Gentoo isn't on the list.

I certainly don't want to run Gentoo down, they're just down I-25 from me. :) But they are hardly a user-friendly desktop distro. They cater unabashedly to the Linux power user.

Re:As much as I like the idea of Gentoo

[entrigant]

They cater unabashedly to the Linux power user.

Please be careful saying this... they might get some funny ideas and stop catering to the power user :( Everyone else seems to think this is a good idea somehow.

Windows apps on Linux - the wrong approach

[int2str]

I seriously hope I can word this not to sound "elitist", but IMHO running Windows applications on Linux is not a good thing(tm). As Linux gets more dsesktop orientated, momentum has been building to reduce two "shortcomings" of Linux: 1) Simple application installation (RPMs, apt-get, +++) 2) More applications I personally am amazed how complete the Linux desktop has gotten. So why is there a need to complicate things for the user again? If a user learns the software installation process for his Linux distro, I don't think it would be a good idea to mix windows application installation into this. Get OpenOffice instead of CrossOverOffice, use Gimp, try Kino. There are great Linux applications out there. Windows applications run very well on windows. I do understand the argument of "In order to get Joe to use Linux he will need to be able to run App X". But instead I would like for Joe to wait until Linux app Y is able to do what App X can do on windows. And IMHO we developers should focus on app Y and not trying so hard to get app X to run on Linux. The better and faster we cann achieve this, the more users will be able to accept Linux as a true alternative OS. Cheers, Andre

The difference twixt Linux and Windows

[gosand]

Crossover Office and Plugin are now bundled into Suse's desktop to provide Windows and Office compatibility.

I think this sentence points out something very often overlooked in the Linux vs Windows debate.
Linux doesn't really have a problem in co-existing with Windows. In fact, I am sure that it would be extremely compatible with Windows, if Microsoft would allow it. Microsoft discourages compatibility as a way of maintaining control.

With Linux it seems more like "we know our place, just let us exist and do our thing", but with Microsoft it is "we are the kings, we control everything." There would be no need for Open Office if the connectivity and document formats were open for Word/Excel. You'd have Linux people running MS Office! But no, it is their way, or the highway, so we have chosen the highway.

People complain that OSS is doing nothing innovative and is just copying existing successful projects like Office. Well maybe this time could be better spent by working with Microsoft instead of constantly having to work around them.

Consistency and Standarisation!

[Anonymous Coward]

Want to know why openoffice is so freaking HUGE AND SLOW? It's because it uses its own toolkit, libs, and tools, instead of building on the standard libs kde and gnome provides.

Ultimatley, i think gnome office and koffice will beat open office into the ground because they are so much faster and lighter, and they are consistent.

Increased co-operation with the kde and gnome teams will help too, because all the tools are OUT THERE, they just need more organisation.

gecko lost out to khtml, and i think the same will happen to openoffice.

Not Impressed

[iCharles]

Several Linux vendors band together to make a consortium to make Linux viable on the desktop strikes me as having limited added value. Though it may result in greater standardization, reduced duplication of effort, and improvements in UI, it's still companies that deal exclusively in Linux.

What would impress me, and truthfully, what I think would make a difference, would be for other vendors to join this consortium. Without application, game, and hardware vendors onboard, it is simply trying to sell some "fringe" applications ("fringe" being used for lack of a better word). Without it, it just seems quite incestuous.

Re:Linux on the desktop

[JudasBlue]

Dude, with a sig that says "There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that get binary and those who don't" you aren't the masses. I am not saying that Lin is or isn't ready for said masses, but just being able to get that joke rules out your representaion in that group. You obviously haven't met my users. They really are the masses, and they sometimes get confused dealing with decimal.

Re:I installed Windows twice...

[Jens]

No, that's wrong. I installed Windows hundreds of times. Literally.

Well, at least I tried.

Let's put it this way: I installed Windows twice after I thought I'd never want to go back. I went back both times. Back to OS/2 first, then back to Linux.

I started with Windows (like just about everyone here I guess). I wrote my school stuff with Word. I crashed and lost my data in win3.1, Win95 and NT4 like everybody else probably did at least once. I got hacked when I used the internet the first time in Windows 95. I searched for alternatives and found OS/2.

I went back to Win95 (b or c) when it came out because IBM didn't convince me to stay (OS/2 had convinced me, and I used it quite a long time - but IBMs marketing failures didn't). My small private BBS, which I started much later, stayed in OS/2 for about 4 years after that, until I moved and lost my ISDN lines.) I thought the 'new' Windows would be better, more stable, etc yadda yadda. I was disappointed.

I tried NT4. I was disappointed (my software didn't run, and the games we then played didn't either. Like Command&Conquer, which ran FINE under OS/2, even during a 33kbps BBS download).

I got Linux (SuSE 4.something from 1995) for Christmas in 1995 (I probably wouldn't have noticed it otherwise). I was disappointed by the usability (fvwm2) and the GUI but impressed by the number of (free) apps for it, which could do much of what I wanted (Staroffice was available, which covered the majority; and I had a licence for OS/2, which I traded for a Linux license; it wasn't free then). The only thing that I missed was FIDOnet software, and I had a feeling Linux then was suited more to developers and internet geeks, both of which I wasn't really. It wasn't comfortable, but it worked, and never crashed on my even once.

But after half a year my SuSE /usr/local partition was bigger than the rest of the system (because I probably was too stupid for the packaging system) and my system was quite a mess - probably self-induced, I experimented too much. I tried NT4 again - not all apps worked (eg. FIDOnet software was available for 95, but didn't run in NT4, and FEddy was available for Linux then. Don't even start asking about games, of which some even worked in dosEMU under Linux!). That was in 1996 IIRC.

After some months I totally trashed NT with a service pack install which crashed during installation. Then something snapped inside me - I wasn't about to trust my data to Windows again. Ever. I'd rather install something, ANYTHING, else (I wasn't far away from buying a Mac, if they'd been affordable to a student then). I experimented with several Linux distributions during holidays and found that except for Debian, all the 'big' ones were quite similar to SuSE - RPM packaging, no easy updates, etc.

I installed my Debian system during the 1996-7 christmas holidays (took me two days to get a useable system, with 'bo' aka Debian 1.3 IIRC). It took me about two weeks to understand the system and get everything running - I wasn't about to make the same mistake I made with SuSE.

But the reward was there - I haven't reinstalled since. I backup this system regularly. It has moved over two hard disk crashes, about 10 hard disk upgrades, uncountable system upgrades (eg. libc5->6, X11 3.x->4.x, perl 4.x-5.0-5.6-5.8, etc etc) and about a dozen machine upgrades (started with a P60/16MB, I'm now using an Athlon XP 1800+ with 256MB RAM). It doesn't become slower with every new program like Windows. (Windows wasn't really worth backing up because I had to reinstall it every couple months anyway.) When I remove things, they get removed cleanly. It doesn't have conflicts between drivers or software, unless I install experimental stuff.

About 1998 I decided to patch a server together with spare parts: I wanted to resurrect my BBS and an ISDN dialup. I copied my Debian installation to the second harddisk, removed non-server related packages (X11, Staroffice, etc), installed server-related packages, removed my /home from the first machine, mounted /home via NFS from the second, and there we were. In 2001 I got a laptop. Copied my installation over, removed some packages, added APM and ACPI, changed the X11 driver line and resolution, ready.

Well... I've used Windows for quite a long time. I am even now using Windows from time to time. As long as I don't have to maintain it and keep it running and the apps I need, it's fine. But as soon as you start doing serious stuff with it, Windows breaks in my hands. If I use Windows as I use Linux, it crashes, apps don't react, etc and people tell me that's "normal", even with Windows 2000, I'm supposed to be more careful and open less apps at the same time.

I don't accept that. When I work I'm not a "hacker" or "freak", I just like to get my job done (which often enough is creating a presentation with Openoffice or writing technical documentation or developing a website). But if I can't have several text editors, office files, GIMP/Photoshop or Corel Photopaint sessions and file manager windows open without the OS throwing up, I'm not being productive.

So: I went back to Linux. Maybe Windows is easier for the 'casual' user. But please don't suggest sandals to a mountain climber, even if they are more comfortable and look better.

(Oh yes: the OS installs tend to overlap, I had two harddisks and when I changed I installed the 'new' OS on the 'other' harddisk and kept both for a period of time, when possible. So don't nail me about the exact dates, I don't remember some of them either.)

And please don't start the "much more apps available for Windows" discussion: I'ts totally true, if you count a) all the things that Linux can do without extra apps, and b) all the viruses and worms. And anyway, who needs 4711 file managers/ICQ clients/graphics programs/..., it's much more efficient to cooperate and put all the good features into one product, which in free software tends to happen much more often than in the commercial/shareware world.

OK, I'm finished.
Go on. You can flame me now.

Here I go again....

[gerardrj]

Linux on the desktop is NOT the issue since Linux is a Kernel not an OS; and certainly it is not a a GUI. The window manager, applications and device detection/drivers are the issues desktop users care about.

Linux is not seen by the end user (at least not many end uses I know do programming that interfaces with the kernel of their OS). They don't give a rats bottom about VM handling techniques, or guaranteed time to handle a device interrupt, or how many fromitz boards are installed in their consoles. What they want is to plug in their USB printer and have it configured automatically. They want their scanner to work simply. They want to email their spreadsheets with a single click or three. And they want that at a reasonable price.

What will get OSS software based systems (Be they Linux, BSD, GNU or any other OSS based system) will be ready availability of application software that will behave like the stuff they use now, and be available on store shelves WITH SUPPORT and complete documentation at a reasonable price (free is good). Most consumers like tangible things. They like a box for their software and they like to have a paper book to look at. It gives them something to hold on to and feel like they've spent money on something.

Developers and distro makers sitting around arguing about how to get a specific kernel adopted in companies is a waste of time. They need to strategise about how to market the rest of the system that end users actually care about, and they have little control over those other projects.

Think about this... if Linus T. had internal access to all of MicroSoft's code, and could re-write, extend and generally replace the WinXP kernel with Linux, would it be a victory? The answer is: No... Everyone is still locked in to MS software applications. The kernel is not the issue.

And if you don't believe it, look at Macintosh. They went from a proprietary kernel to BSD/Mach, the end user doesn't care in the end. They just want Word, Excel, Photoshop, et al to run as expected. During the transition there were some arguments about moving toBSD vs Linux or GNU or Be, but the longer, hotter discussions were always over "When will application ____ be ported?". The ___ was initially Photoshop, then we went down the list to Quark, Freehand, Pagemaker, etc. There were even more topics about how X looked, and how easy it was to work with. In most articles, mention of the kernel was a brief comment like "BSD/Unix based".

The Debian Desktop Subproject

[Anonymous Coward]

[http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop/]

"The Debian Desktop subproject is a group of volunteers who want to create the best possible operating system for home and corporate workstation use. Our motto is "Software which Just Works". In short, our goal is to bring Debian, GNU, and Linux to the mainstream world."

"Who's involved in Debian Desktop ...anyone who wants to be!"

App Installation main problem

[KingJoshi]

The main problem on GNU/Linux distros is difficulty in app installations. I know Windows isn't the best method and they leave registry crap and all that. But on average, apps are easier to install on Windows.

Sure, ./configure, make, make install isn't hard. For those that know. Rpms can be easy some times. But there are tons of problems that can occur. I've never used Debian and apt-get so I can't comment on that. Maybe that solves everything. I've only used Redhat and Mandrake (been using Linux dual boot with Windows for 3 years).

I want to update a windows program, it's usually easy. I want to update KDE, xine or some other software and it usually takes me a lot more work. And please, agree to a place to hold files. /usr/share, /usr/local, etc. With this consortium, (though Redhat seems to be not involved) hopefully the guys can come together and set standards and ease the process.

I think the KDE UI is better than XP and the Mac. With so many countries getting involved, hopefully many apps will come. Linux already has most of the stuff home users want (except big games). They just need an easy way to install and update them. That's it.

Re:App Installation main problem

[cr0sh]

I agree with you on this - something I have always wished you could have on Linux (and there is nothing really stopping this) is an "InstallShield"-like installation process for software.

Even if all the thing did was automate the "./configure, make, make install" - it would go a long way to solving the problem (of course, there are number of pitfalls to all of this - namely security issues - many time you do the first two steps as a user, and the last as root - because typically the software gets installed into a path accessible only by root - although I know there is a way to pass path information to make). Being able to choose where to install the software easily, see how much space it needs vs. how much it is taking up, etc - plus having a way to easily uninstall - this would go a long way toward making things better.

Building such an app should be relatively easy - make it useable at the console and under X. Make it scriptable (so that developers can build the install scripts). Something makes me think that this should be fairly easy to implement.

There would be pitfalls (mainly issues involving library compatibilities and versions, and should the installer be a self-contained executable - and if so, how do you ensure that it always works regardless of the system). It is a hairy problem, but one that definitely needs to be solved.

Where's Red Hat?

[ChrisWong]

The article noted the absence of Lindows, but a more conspicuous absentee from the consortium's list is Red Hat. While Red Hat is an enthusiastic Gnome supporter that employs few (if any) KDE developers, this list is heavy with KDE supporters. Notably, Ark Linux is a project started by Bero, that ex-Red Hatter who quit because he thought Red Hat "crippled" KDE. Am I reading too much into this? Anybody know more?

exchange replacements

[Kunta Kinte]

An "Outlook/Exchange killer".

Lotus notes

oracle collaboration

Bynari InsightServer.

There are others.

One step at a time

[ProfDumb]

Most of the discussion here is about how Linux won't be "ready for the desktop until my favorite App(s) are running on Linux."

Think about the way linux has grown as a server. From very specialized applications (five years or so ago: "did you hear XX company runs Linux as a print server??? wow!") to more and more general applications.

Right now Linux on the desktop is great for some fairly specialized folks. On one side, if you are an engineer/scientist who has always run a Unix workstation (hey, my "wordprocessor" has always been LaTex edited by Xemacs), then desktop Linux has been great for years. On the other end, if you want a locked-down machine that only browses and checks for e-mail, Linux is currently great.

The trick is to broaden the appeal of desktop Linux out in incremental steps. Get the administrative assistants at the engineering firm running Star Office on Linux and get rid of windows at an otherwise Unix shop. Some departments need only browser, e-mail and an decent Excel clone. Done. Some departments need to set up meetings on a firm-level Exchange server. Not 100% done yet, but already good enough for some and as it gets better a few more will switch.

The point is, think incrementally, think about heterogenous users and don't fall into the all or nothing trap. If Linus had listened to "it isn't ready until it runs on 64 processor machines", he never would have started.

response to ExtremeTech editor

[Karma Sucks]

Please provide more balanced coverage of KDE on your site.

If you demand it of SuSE, why don't you practice it here? Maybe enough with the "GNOME is preferred", "GNOME is better"? If GNOME is so good, why doesn't the default work well? If you can say "GNOME is preferred", why shouldn't SuSE say "KDE is preferred"? Fair is fair.

In Red Hat, all KDE wants is to not be *purposely* crippled. A default set-up of KDE in Red Hat would make *everyone* except GNOME lovers happy. A default set-up of GNOME makes GNOME people mad.

Consortium == Death Knell

[mdxi]

I read this article much earlier today. I think this is doomed to failure from the word "go". History shows that anything involving "Unix" and words like "Common" or "Consortium" or "Group" spells disaster.

Does anyone remember the OSF or COSE or any of their products (Motif, OSF/1, CDE...) with anything but derision? Does anyone remember COSE, which was going to turn back the tide and bring Microsoft to its knees, at all?

Also, that website is a retina-searing chunk of ass. Way to convince me you can design a great desktop.

ROX should get involved

[SCHecklerX]

If anybody here is on the mailing lists (I simply couldn't keep up anymore!) for rox (http://rox.sourceforge.net/), I believe that project should be a member of this consortium, as they are doing many desktop things right, without all of the bloat that is KDE/Gnome. Get Thomas to join!

Linux users first experiences..

[NivenHuH]

I'm currently dual-booting between WinXP and Slackware on my desktop at home.. My only issue with Linux as a desktop os is the lack of native commercial (game) software out there. Loki games has pushed to get more stuff over to Linux, but.. they went out of business because of the lack of profit from porting these games over. What we need to see is more of a push from the major software developers out there, (Just like ID software who ported the quake series over) so that we can get more of the windows desktop users over.

I've installed RH8 on my mom's computer (she's completely dunce with computers), and the interface has been so easy for her to use that she just kinda picked up everything on her own. (Not only that, but I can support her via ssh'ing into her machine) Is it hard to use? I guess if you're used to other OS's it's a little counter-intuitive, or if you are wanting to get into the advanced (or command line) portion of linux it's a little bit more difficult, but for the most part the robustness of window managers for X has made linux into a pretty good desktop OS for newbies.

As far as issues with support goes.. (on irc..etc..) do research before you ask questions. A lot of people who are spatting out answers to you lose patience when people demand an answer out of them. It's not their job to support you, so show gratitude. Google things up and learn how to search for things on groups.google.com A ton of issues people run into have been answered time and time again on email.

Newho.. that's just my $1.289

Plenty of clients, no server

[aquarian]

The problem is not that there are no replacements for Outlook-type clients -- there are tons of those -- but that there's no replacement for Exchange Server. There are many analagous Linux solutions that may actually be better, but there's still no drop-in, Exchange-compatible replacement. If these companies want to make headway, they ought to forget about these stupid, token "partnerships," and put some developers on a true, Exchange Server replacement.

Re:Offtopic, mod accordingly :)

[Micah]

Ok, I'll bite.

# Financial software that has any compatibility with online banking

GnuCash 1.8

# Any kind of tax software

Do it online. 2 or 3 options there.

# Any kind of publishing/greeting card software (like you mentioned)

Agreed. This would be a good project for someone to take up. I bet some good KDE hackers could put one together in a few weeks. :)

# Any kind of "useful" office suite. By useful, I mean something that can be used anywhere by anybody. If I create an excel sheet or a powerpoint presentation, I can send that to anybody in the world and know that they can open it and read it

OpenOffice.org. And don't tell me it's not. And if for some reason it's not *yet*, it will be with 1.1 later this year.

# Any kind of children or educational software

There is some. Not a huge wealth of choices yet, but seriously, how much do they need? Isn't learning better done through books and toys anyway?

# Any kind of decent game that is has nothign to do with squashing Bill Gates while he is infecting computers with windows, or some freeking penguin on a skateboard. WineX doesn't count, too, because it rules out any of the latest games. A game console doesn't count, either. If I have all the hardware required to play games on my PC, why would I want to buy more hardware to play on a console just because I chose a crappy OS?

Bah. No one needs anything beyond TEG. :-) Actually there are plenty of decent games in Linux. You just have to be able to live without most of the big-money specific titles in the Windows world. Not that I care, I'm way too addicted to TEG!

# Antivirus/Security software

Huh? Linux has a fundamentally different architecture. Mail programs in Linux don't randomly execute every attachment they get. Distros ship with firewalls (which aren't even necessary if you don't run crap you don't need to run).

# Business/Accounting/Law software

There are choices out there for accounting, but granted, that category is well behind what is available for Windows. Fortunately, not everyone needs that stuff. Give it a couple years, it will come.