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Columbia Coverage
ke4roh writes "Space.com offers a list of questions and answers about the events and hardware surrounding Columbia's destruction Saturday. They address suspected causes, foam, tile, and some of the alternatives had NASA known the ship would not be able to re-enter the atmosphere." viewstyle writes "PC Magazine has a pack of stuff put together on the space shuttle accident, as they recognized the fact that the space program inspired a lot of tech people in general. What's pretty cool is the section written by a guy there who worked on the computer components in the shuttle." And naturally, the idea of a space elevator is back in vogue again.
I've been hearing a lot about the 30 seconds of telemetry that was too weak for the computers to display during the shuttle break-up but that is now being analyzed from backups. Does anybody have any more information on what this data?
As I understand it, the last 'good readings' were full-scale low or high on a lot of the temperature sensors, which to me would indicate sensor failure. Several of these sensors reported such values before communication was lost. This kind of makes me wonder what benefit there would be in examining whatever else came back after those failures--I can't imagine the data would be particularly accurate, though there may be some valuable information. Can anybody elaborate?
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
One thing that suprised me was how FEW detectors there appeared to be on the shuttle. You'd have thought that it would be mostly wiring and lots of redundancy and measuring every millisecond, but it appeared to be much coarser and less often. Surely in 1980 they had small electronic detectors so as to enable more accurate reporting ?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Here is an insightful editorial on K5 which should help put some things into perspective. It's worth reading if you haven't already.
I've seen the footage that CNN et al see fit to publish regarding the Shuttle, but where are all the street-level pics being posted these days?
... as an avid space nerd, I want to see as much as I possibly can about this incident (save, perhaps, pics of the charred skeletal remains that were found the other day ... I can leave that for stile.)
Surely there are sites out there for folks to upload pics of debris they've taken out in the field, etc? I'm tired of having these sorts of things filtered for me by mainstream news - so anyone got any URL's?
Pissed me off that I have to *subscribe* to CNN to see the amateur video that was taken in California of the breakup
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I couldn't agree more, which is surprising since I usually don't agree with anything he says. But I really believe that changing NASA's focus might be the ideal solution to the public's (read: media's) boredom with our space program.
It is the only good thing that could come out of this horrible event.
Both of these programs are doing next to NOTHING in helping us to colonize and explore space. They are robbing billions of dollars each year in resources we could devote to developing better launch and propulsion technologies.
So why is the shuttle and the ISS still around if it is so worthless? Two reasons 1) Pork politics. NASA has cleverly made sure most of its contracts are spread out into districts controlled by powerful congressmen, and 2) nerds who know little about science but keep naively swallow the nonsense that is fed to them by NASA that the current incarnation of manned space flight is an investment in the future.
Canceling the shuttle and the ISS is not turning your back on manned space flight. Don't make more people senselessly lose their lives.
Space Elevator? Can you say "terrorist target?" Besides, I dont' see how that could possibly be viable. Raw materials would be one factor, and I can't stand an elevator going up a couple of dozen floors, let alone several miles. If a couple of people fart, it'd be all over. And besides, bin Laden and crew would drool over a high profile target like that, and it wouldn't even get very far under construction without getting nailed by some radical towel heads who can't wait to get to their how-ever-many virgins in the name of their god. That's just reality, folks. Next idea, please...
Aren't we supposed to be on the next generation shuttles already? Or did Challenger set us THAT far back? Don't we have some new birds like those seen in Armageddon yet? Oh yeah, that's right. Our President cares more about dropping bombs in a sandbox than he does about Space Exploration, so NASA goes underfunded, and the War for Oil gets top billing.
Yes, we'll return to space. It took us a while after Challenger, but I don't think we'll have that much of a delay this time around. Trouble is, we're running low on Shuttles, and now that we're down by two, with the others aging, how much longer can we keep up that program? We need new shuttles, which means NASA needs more funding so it can get contracts rolling....
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
The research into nanotubes could have some *very* nice spinoff techs...nanotubes, if one or two hurdles are overcome, could be heralded as a pretty much "perfect" tech for making ICs...mmm Pentium/Athlon 10 400GHz... Nanotubes are as close to "unbreakable" as it gets :)
------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
First of all, the difference in degrees across the two wings will create turbulence. Now the onboard computers is going to try to compensate for that.
The Angle of re-entry into the earth's atmosphere barely has any margin for error. Either your angle
is correct or you skip off the atmosphere and have to try again, or you burn up. In this case the extreme heat and turbulence broke the shuttle to pieces.
The Space Exploration Act of 2002 seemed a great first step, but received very little backing. NASA's NExT group plans look very promising - but do they have any money, even in this year's budget? The goal should be human exploration, development, and settlement of the solar system. The National Space Society has a clear roadmap for space development, and a vision of people living and working in thriving communities in space - but membership there has been dropping for years. The goals actually are pretty obvious - what's needed is for the public to get behind them. Go join these organizations, write your senators and congressman! If you care about space, do something about it!
Energy: time to change the picture.
"Could the damage have been investigated with satellites? Perhaps, but that was tried during a 1998 mission and the pictures were of little use."
I found this quote from the article odd. We can take pictures of license plates from space and we can see the divits from meteors on the hubble telescope, but we couldn't look at the shuttle? As far as the 1998 reference, satellite picture technology has come quite far since then.
Holy s-, it's Jesus!
Very good.
Also, broken telemetry readings and strength of signal can be used to determine the attitude (read : orientation, not height) of the shuttle since transmitters are usually directional.
The attitude data of the shuttle at its final seconds would be the most useful information. For example, you can use it to determine how the shuttle begin to tumble out of standard flight reentry modes.
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Or it may imply widespread damage that damaged multiple sensors
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I did think some form of "cut" of critical wires was a possibility. It all depends on where these wires are. I did think for a while that maybe the left tyre burst. After all, ground control, AND, the astronauts, reported a change in tyre pressure. This would indicate heat was heating up the tyre to an unusual level.. pressure gets too high, bang, debris rips through the shuttle and cuts vital cables?
- Knocked off tiles strike tyre protection area
- During re-entry tyre begins to heat up due to lost protection
- Pressure inside tyre increases
- Local temps on wing also increase
- Tyre finally reaches its maximum pressure and explodes
- Debris from tyre rips into local cables, cutting sensors, communications, and possibly controls
- Shuttle begins to roll and enters a dive spin, breaking up due to this
*shrug* just one theory.
--I agree. If the guy was that concerned about it, his best defense was full release immediately. He also is really dumb to give up ownership and control of the camera, to let it out of his sight. He's screwed now, and as far as I am concerned the camera is now tainted. Any investigation of the camera and negatives should have taken place in full and open view of any interested press persons and especially his lawyer present and a hired camera tech scientist. IF his photos do in fact show some sort of "lightning bolt" or "beam", especially coming from ABOVE, that is some scary stuff potentially.
I do NOT trust the government. ANY nation's government. I also don't trust scammers. So we are stuck on this one. The good news is he doesn't seem to have tried to immediately sell the photos, that's a good sign.
With that said, I'll wait to inspect the photo myself before commenting on it. At least it needs the highest resolution scan possible to be released on the net.
Think for a second about what you just asked. Is it normal procedure for US MILITARY to be present at a US SHUTTLE LANDING - um, DUH! If something happens, if the shuttle is forced to land off course, who do you think reaches them first? Civvies? dream on! Good ole Uncle Sam is always prepared, simply because there HAVE been problems in the past. It's just common sense to be prepared for more.
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As early as the day after Columbia was lost, we are starting to see reports of management decisions that affected safelty, design, and ignored problems what were spookily predicted when it came to the foam. Sure, lots of letters might cross managements desk in regards to shuttle problems. But it's the fucking shuttle, you check them ALL or you just don't DO the shuttle. Suddenly the pointy haired boss in Dilbert strips isn't so funny, knowing how accurate he is to real managers in the real world.
In the past four years as a computer programmer (doing other shit now, self employed, NO management to harrass or to blame) I've gotten to enjoy the view as in each and every company I worked at, managers were the cause of almost every problem that happened with the products. To all the managers reading this: goto www.dilbert.com and check to make sure you are not an idiot leading a team of people who know a lot more than you. THINK. LISTEN. THINK MORE. TRY TO DO SOME FUCKING GOOD since you do the "planing of the work" and not the actual "work". Make the best of your time in your leather chear and wall-side office, and LEAD. Watch Braveheart, get motivated!
Having worked on the shuttle program I can tell you that everyone involved would have done everything possible to save the crew. I agree that if they thought there was a good chance of a problem and a second launch was possible they would have gone up with a second shuttle and brought them back down.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Why is this tragic accident SO much more important than so many others?
Not to sound too crass, but it's the quality, not the quantity (up to a point) that counts here. You're right, 100 average joes/joettes die somewhere and nobody blinks an eye. Seven astronauts die and the nation is in mourning and the flags are half mast. Why, well it's because the astronauts are celebrities. Why do people make pilgrimages to view Elvis's grave, but wouldn't take to time to stop at the Vietnam war memorial? Why does an entire nation come out the mourn the death of a single "princess"? It's all about who you are. This is no different.
What should I do if I find Columbia debris?
Do not touch it. Monday evening, NASA officials issued another warning that the debris "may be dangerously contaminated with toxic substances and cause serious injury if handled. Individuals who think they may have come in contact with shuttle debris should take a shower with soap and water and then seek medical attention.
What is the nature of this contamination? Does anyone here know?
Siggy Wiggy Figgy Tiggy a bana bo Biggy!
Hmmm. . . How does one define a hero? From reading your post, I get the impression that your argument goes as follows:
(1) The crew were not heros because they were simply in a widely publicized accident, which is tragic, but not necessarily heroic.
(2) Soldiers in WWII were heros because they willingly accepted the risk of death or maiming in order to serve their country.
I agree with the premises which are, if I follow your reasoning properly,
(a) Just because you get a lot of publicity, it doesn't follow that you are a hero.
(b) Putting yourself at risk to serve your fellow man is a heroic act.
But if these are the premises, we could still consider the crew to be heros. Were they not volunteers? Did they not accept high risk? Wasn't their work/job in the service of humanity?
IMHO (YMMV), it is not inappropriate to apply the title to the crew.
Well ... as of this morning NASA is focusing on the foam hit as being the most likely cause, so I don't think red herring status is appropriate.
It turns out the shuttle was on the pad during drenching rainstorms and there's (NASA) speculation that ice may've built up. Given that the piece of foam that broke off was near the strut that attaches the shuttle proper to the external fuel tank, with the strut surrounded by foam, it's possible that water could've accumulated there. Which would've frozen once the tank was filled with LOX and liquid hydrogen.
If the chunk that fell off contained a lot of ice it would've been a lot heavier than foam alone. And the engineering analysis that was done apparently only looked at the case where the foam was foam alone.
This is all in today's NYT and my local paper (which goes to bed later than our edition of the Times as I'm on the West Coast) and all comes straight from NASA.
I was thinking about the process followed after the launch and the discovery of insulation hitting the shuttle. Couldn't someone make a softball sized robot (USV?) that is remote controllable and has a camera? The astronauts can send the robot outside for inspections in case questions arise. I would assume this robot can perform a far better inspection than other techniques currently used (ground based cameras, satellites not in same orbit, etc)
Yeah, they can't fix the shuttle, but can't they send another shuttle up in an emergency time frame to rescue the others? Is there absolutely no contingency plans at all when the astronauts go up...
While nobody yet knows what caused the disaster, and while numerous alternative scenarios have been suggested to explain it, absolutely everybody agrees that current space vehicle technology is extremely fragile. Not fragile per se, as the shuttle is designed to survive a whole range of minor problems and has done so repeatedly. However, it is effectively very fragile in the context of the extremely harsh conditions of space and the huge forces of launch and reentry. Nobody disputes that the risks of manned space exploration are currently very very high in the face of things "going wrong".
I wonder then, what would be needed to reverse this situation? If we knew what was required, we'd have some idea of how far away from such a future we currently are. It is after all not an impossible dream --- for example, as one part of a transport system, you could hypothesize that a seamless body built out of (say) 1000-times as strong self-sealing materials comprising millions of layers of ablative and structural thin film, with a passive self-righting shape, might not have any problem at all in dealing with reentry conditions. (This is not a proposal --- I'm just suggesting that you can always come up with a less fragile basis for a space vehicle by extrapolating current-day technological developments.)
So, given the (futuristic) possibility of eventually having vehicle technology that is inherently less fragile than the current one, what would we need to develop towards such a future? We all know that there are pretty amazing developments in materials technology heading our way already, within human timespans, but there is more to it than just materials.
For a start, is there a completely stable, self-righting shape that would be a clear candidate for a design that eliminated the risk of guidance electronics failure by not requiring any stabilizing controls once the reentry trajectory was established outside of the atmosphere?
If so, transformation from that to a gliding shape is only one of many possibilities for handling the landing, ranging from on-end-landing propulsion to catching the darn thing to good ol' parachutes and many other approaches.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
i'd like to ask a question that has not,
...
to my knowledge, been asked yet:
why, excactly, the communication was lost
so abruptly at 7:59 AM ??
was it an electrical type of fault,
perhaps some communication subsystem
started to burn ? perhaps the antenna ?
if so, how could a termal failure
propagate itself through the
communication system ?
or, rather, the shuttle itself began
rotating so everything started to burn,
and the communication was lost after that ?
given that shuttle attitude was "almost" normal,
at the moment in which the communication was lost,
it seems more an electrical type of failure.
a related question is if it is known (by the
many videos) at what time exactly the shuttle
was broken in two pieces
giampy
Premature Optimization is The Root of All Evil - D.Knuth
We learn from history that we learn nothing from history - Tom Veneziano
Some past articles discussing the progress of a space elevator can also be found over at Sci-Fi Today:
The Aftermath of Another Shuttle Tragedy
The Business of Building a Space Elevator
Drog
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"Columbia was most likely lost at launch, and there's nothing NASA could have done, even if they knew within 30 minutes that the damage would prove fatal."
If there's one thing in this world that never ceases to amaze me, it is the ingenuity of the people at NASA. If anyone could have saved that crew, it would be those fine people who have managed to save at least one crew (Apollo 13) against all odds. I realize given all the odds stacked against them, it would be "difficult at best", but then again, doing the impossible is NASA engineers' jobs. My hats off to the fine men and women who live and give their lives in the pursuit of science.
I thought the issue was heat, not cold. That is, if you close cargo bay doors and remain in orbit, the inside of the shuttle will slowly heat up from the people inside, equipment, and just the sun hitting it half the time. The first thing they do once achieving orbit is to open the doors and release the heat that builds up in the launch (a slightly separate issue, of course).
In a vaccuum, there's no medium to bear heat away from you, so you only cool down from emitted infrared radiation. Overheating is very often a bigger problem than freezing.
The other points are good ones, of course. The problem is that people have become slightly blase. These people are living in outer space. Yes, it's freakishly dangerous. I'd still choose to do it with no hesitation.