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Buying a Small, Light Linux Notebook Computer?
"I have no Windows software and will not be running any, not even via WINE. I have no
desire to go through the hassle of purchasing software I'm not going to use and
then fighting to get a token rebate that doesn't actually equate to the cost of a Windows license. Nor am I interested in buying a machine that was purchased with a Windows license, and simply having Windows erased with no refund given.
So far I've found iDot Computers, who will sell laptops with no OS installed. Unfortunately, their lightest,
smallest offering is a hefty 2.8kg brick, 3cm bigger than the iBook in width and depth. What I really want is something comparable to a Toshiba Libretto or Sony VAIO R505--except that neither of those companies want to sell me a machine without Windows.
I'm sure plenty of Slashdot readers have faced the same problem--what's the solution?"
Always this emphasis on performance...
a Jedi craves not these things, only affordability.
Small, lightweight, runs Unix, nice GUI, long battery life, etc...
I'm in a similar situation, only I've never owned a Mac. Anyway, I think I've decided upon buying a 12" powerbook (and yes, I read the reviews of them). Not sure if that's too rich for your blood but it sounds like a good deal to me.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
www.powernotebooks.com
windows tax not required. was in a slashdot article awhile back.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's called a power book.
Yao and mini-me use 'em, why can't you?
"Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling...." - Abraham Simpson
Called them today looking at laptops. Told her I did not want to pay for XP , she told me that removing it would void the waranty on the laptop! She suggested that I buy a bigger drive and do a split partion. I was disgusted that I Was going to be charged even more just to run linux. I am not even sure how software can void a hardware warranty. The call ended with them still having a laptop and me still looking.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
For more information about Linux on laptops, go to the web page about Linux on laptops; help can be found in the Usenet newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc or comp.os.linux.hardware
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
i don't know about linux compatibility, but it sounds like in terms of HARDWARE you're looking for something like Fujitsu P-series or so. Fujitsu P-Series page. it doesn't have firewire, but it has everything else you want. here's a page talking about putting linux (debian) on it i think i've seen firewire pcmcia cards, so that might be the solution. I don't know about getting it without windows, but that's the breaks... Like another poster said, not *everything* has to be a political statement. You could just video tape yourself burning or shitting on your windows CD in front of a linux flag or something. ;)
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Be prepared for a lot of sales people to go "Sorry, we cannot allow you to boot that CD".
Kind of ironic that you're not permitted to 'test' the machine you're about to fork out several thousand dollars for.
When I was last searching for a laptop I encountered this brick-wall mentality, consequently I ended up telling them "Oh, in that case, no sale, goodbye" ( Commissions obviously doesn't exist in sales any more ).
As for the reasoning behind the no-fiddle mentality, it's because they're afraid that you'll install some sort of hacker software.
Neocomputers.com will sell you a custom laptop. You can also purchase it without Windows on it.
Here is a link to the custom laptop page.
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
These are a stunning laptop. I love mine. Only criticism is that it gets hot. They're small, light, firewire, 2x USB, DVD burner, good battery life, monitor spanning support, built in ethernet and modem ... the list goes on.
The catch is always software. With Mac OS X, you get great software. Better by far than any Linux configuration on the desktop. Want to burn a CD? Insert the bank CD, drag the files onto it, and then eject it ("do you wish to burn this CD?")
How easy is that? I don't have time to fsck around with cdrecord and mkisofs anymore. I just want to burn a goddamned CD. I just want to connect to a wireless network. I just want to watch a DVD. I just want to fire up emacs and write some code. I don't want to tinker and stuff around all day making things work.
So remember, hardware is half the story. Software is the other. If you can take the mac premium price, you get the best of both worlds.
Ash OS durbatulk, ash OS gimbatul, ash OS thrakatulk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! Uzg-MS-ishi amal fauthut burgulli.
Here is something odd. As people have been posting links I have been eagerly following them. I am noticing a disturbing trend. Every link has led to a place that had laptops on average $500 to $1000 more than the same laptop from a major vendor with windows on it. I am starting to think that we linux lovers may be taking it up the butt the same way that vegetarians get reamed for "Organic" produce..
See a market , exploit that market and I think we may being exploited here.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
they won't even support their laptops connecting to a non-Apple wireless access point.
oh really. i bought an ibook and called them up when i couldn't connect to my linksys WAP. the guy told me exactly what i needed to do. very helpful. if you want to bash apple, at least know wtf you're talking about.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
It's been said, but not like this.
Look, what you really want is a PowerBook. You know it, everyone here knows it. You just won't admit it.
So let's compare features. The Apple certainly has no potential whatsoever of running Microsoft Windows except through some complete emulation/virtualization software. Score one for Apple. The Apple comes with an actual GUI far superior to Microsoft Windows (not even a contest) and much more polished than your typical UNIX GUI. Score another (or a couple) for Apple.
Want more? Well, your Mac is actually capable of running Microsoft Office should you later find yourself in a bind and be REQUIRED to deal with it to put food on the table. On the plus side, you can always pirate it and you don't need Windows or Windows emulation software to run it. That's worth about a half a point (MS Office isn't that great in my book). Your Mac will also be able to run just about any open source program you want. Furthermore, Apple has now even decided to provide an official version of X11 which they have even extended to allow full access to the OpenGL extensions. That means that you can create "lickable" GUIs using the X Window System.
But even if you don't want to run Mac OS X (and trust me, you will), you can always run Linux on it. There are several very good quality PowerPC distros available. Furthermore, even if you go this route, it still doesn't preclude you from running MacOS X (or 7 8 or 9 for that matter) using the mac on linux software.
And on top of all of that you'll be supporting a company who actually understands that it is customers that drive the bottom line; a company that creates GUIs that even your mom can understand, GUIs that actually make sense and help you get on with what you are trying to do-- especially if you are a hard-core geek.
So please at least consider the Powerbook. It's a sleek machine, it's extremely solidly built (well, the 12" model I hear leaves something to be desired, but the rest are excellent). It comes with a good OS. You can run Linux on it. And you're not supporting a company that supports Microsoft. In fact, you are supporting a company that actually competes with Microsoft (on some small level). A company whose CEO made a little deal with Microsoft and got a lot of gain for very little (putting MS IE in as the default browser, BFD).
In short: you know you want it dude!
Buy a Used Laptop. Someone else may already have consumed a MS license on that hardware, true, but you will not be consuming one yourself. None of your money will be heading to Redmond (unless you account for the effect of resale value of hardware that was originally sold with a MS license).
:-)
eBay is a great place to start looking
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
Metamatic -
... so it worked for me) :
Sounds like you want a used machine. I would suggest looking on ebay and/or the computer refurb houses for a machine that is maybe a year old, go with a high quality manufacturer and it could still be under warranty (I personally like Dell, I have three within arms reach of me, counting laptops and my server.)
The only issue I see going with hardware that is a year+ old is the 1394 connection - but if it was top of the line a year ago it should have that connection (my last Latitude C800 did and it was a year and a half old.)
Note that you should be able to find a one year old machine for about half of what it cost new, but remember that today's hardware costs less than top of the line gear did a year ago and is much faster. Based on what I remember, you should be able to get whatever was top of the line a year ago for the same price as the entry level stuff new, but the entry level stuff is going to be about 1.5x as fast as the one year old top of the line machine.
I am not saying it will give you the best bang for the buck, but it will satisify your entire request. Personally I would buy a new entry level machine from Dell (or your favorite company) for about $750 delivered and then toss the XP CD / license in your closet. Add some aftermarket RAM and networking gear and you are all set - for about $900 including the 802.11b.
I just checked, Dell has a laptop (the Inspiron 2650C) on sale for $700 after rebate (yes, rebates suck but I did get mine back
14" screen XGA
128M RAM (www.crucial.com)
20G hd
24x CD
16MB DDR 4X AGP NVIDIA GeForce2 Go(TM)Vid
Floppy
Integrated 56k modem and NIC
1 year warranty.
If you didn't want to jack with the warranty ($150) you could get the 802.11b PCMCIA card and a 802.11b router (I didn't bother to read the details) instead. Brings the price of the system to $850.
Upgrade to a 15" screen for $50.
Nice.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
You're right. As this page points out, their machines come with WinXP Home Edition from the OEM. They just happen to blow it away and ensure that all of the hardware works very well with Linux, and your choice of distro is installed for you out of the box. They also provide a year of tech support, hence the markup.
Note: I have no problem with Emporer Linux's business model, and wish them success. However, I don't think they'll meet the submitter's requirement to never pay for Windows.
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
This article is the biggest troll i've ever seen. In order to avoid "paying the Microsoft tax" you're just going to end up paying for someone to specifically take 1% of laptops off the production line before the Windows install, stock them somewhere marked differently from the generic (Windows) laptops, update their inventory database, notify their distibutors who will then have to notify the stores... all adding up to a hell of a lot more than it would cost them to just put Windows on it and say "reformat at home if you like".
You just very eloquently explained why calling it "the microsoft tax" is really not far from the truth. If it is really that hard to obtain a product in a particular market without sending 5% of the purchase price to a company in a different market, how can you call that anything but a tax?
I have a Sony U3 that I just got in Japan, and I tried to install Red Hat on it. Ha. Red Hat had no idea what was going on, it couldn't find a sound card, anything to use the extra buttons, jog dials etc. and the resolution was terrible. Needless to say, I put my M$ back on, cried, and then slipped it into my shirt pocket.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
Just pay the extra $25 dollars.
Is there something wrong with someone standing up for principles? I think you should be able to buy hardware without buying software (and iBooks don't accomplish this) , regardless of how little it turns out to be when you work out the math. I'm told that MS makes most of their windows-license money from new PC's, so it certainly is not an insignificant amount ($25 is much less than I have heard from other sources)
You're comparing apples to oranges (no pun intended). If Microsoft made the laptop we would all expect to receive a Microsoft OS upon purchase. An "OS tax" would be a given. The situation is true of Apple. Apple brands the laptop as their own, thus it's acceptable to bundle it with their OS. The question is regarding the hardware that has no tie to the OS. Should I have to give a little of the overall cost of the hardware to Microsoft even though I'm not doing business with them? If so, that would be a tax. If there were a plethora of PPC laptop vendors out there, and none of them would sell a laptop without MacOS, then you would have a point. As it is, however, your example is flawed.
/. finds me to be 20% Troll, 80% Funny
If you've decided to acquiesce on the "no-Windows" stance, I'd suggest looking at the CNET Notebook section for info. There are sections are for value as well as thin and light notebooks, among others, and looking through those sections is a lot quicker than navigating through the separate laptop sections on each manufacturer's website.
My take on notebooks (currently); wait. Banias is around the corner (March 12 last I heard) bringing +3 hour battery time coupled with excellent performance (it's easy to find slower laptops with significantly longer battery times though). Cost will be an issue (if you're looking at sub-$1500), so I'd suggest waiting even longer after Banias. Having performance, price and portability all in one laptop is about to become possible though; all you need to do is hold off from purchasing for a bit more.
Microsoft site licenses usually require companies to pay for machines which don't have Windows on them.
Depends on the license that companies have, but not generally true.
----- -----
I can only imagine that Microsoft makes the same requirements on computer vendors when they sell machines without Windows, or with some other OS. So even if you buy a new machine without Windows, you will probably still be lining Microsoft's pockets buying such a machine.
Not true anymore. Microsoft USED to force OEMs to pay OS licenses for every PC shipped, regardless of whether every PC actually has Windows installed on it.
Microsoft and the U.S. DOJ signed a consent decree in 1994 that halted this 'per processor' license fee (among other practices alleged to be improper).
OEMs pay licenses only for machines shipped.
Now, between volume rates, advertising allowances, joint marketing & partnering arrangements, licenses for other products, etc, etc,. MS still has incredible licensing flexibiliy, and due to its market control, massive power over those OEMs. But no licenses for every machine shipped.
When you buy online, most companies such as Dell, IBM, Compaq, etc. will force you to buy some software package.
:)
If you, however, call them on the phone and talk to one of their sales reps, you can have the bundled software removed (including the OS).
I would recommend a Dell, or if you have the money for it, an IBM Thinkpad. I love my ThinkPad.
You just have to talk to a real person, which I understand is sometimes difficult for some computer literate people, but you have to work to get what you want in life.
I just replaced a R505 with a 12" PowerBook. In every respect, the Apple is the superior machine:
The R505 series of Vaio feel very very cheap. The nice metal cover that had been on the older series Vaios has been replaced by a run-of-the-mill piece of plastic. After a year, the screen hinge barely works, and the power adapter socket will only make an adequate connection when I hold it just right.
On paper, the R505 is smaller, but it doesn't feel any smaller. The way the 12"PB is hinged makes it open in a very compact way - unlike the R505 which seems to need a great deal more room to fully open. On a train or plane, the 12" PB can be held on the tray table with the screen at a reasonable angle even with the seat reclined in front of you. No chance of doing this with the Vaio.
Finally, the PB12" is much much smaller when you consider its relative size with the DVD drive installed. On the Vaio, you need to plug the unit into its base to get the DVD drive - doubling the size and weight of the thing. With the Apple, it's just there, and just works.
You say you're fine with a PCMCIA 802.11 solution, but have you really used one of these for any length of time? The antenna portion of the card makes for an awkward fit - especially compared with the elegance of the Mac's built-in airport.
Don't get me started on OSX. You want to run Linux why? Honestly, with X11 installed within OSX, I'm finding it hard to find reasons to run Linux.
According to Gateway's testomany in the MS court case : "Gateway also faulted another provision of the new licensing agreement, which requires PC makers to pay a Windows royalty on every PC shipped, even if it didn't include Windows. To top it off, to qualify for market development funds, PC makers have to put a Microsoft OS on every PC. As a result, trying to sell non-Windows PCs, or even PCs without software, is a financial loser for computer makers." http://news.com.com/2100-1001-868413.html
Sounds like a Transmeta device would be right on target. You can then avoid both windows and intel.
http://www.antelopetech.com
http://www.transmeta.com
>> I saw some demo laptops and they took their sweet time loading ANYTHING.
You better shut up if your only experience with the iBook came from watching a demo. I am using OS X on a 700 MHz iBook for programming C++ and Java, browsing, playing music, editing graphics, etc, and it feels faster than a Sony Vaio with more than twice clock rate.
The $999 iBook comes with a proper 3D card (ATI Radeon 7500) and 16 MB dedicated VRAM, while some of much more expensive Vaio models use cheap Intel integrated graphics with only shared VRAM. Personally, I wouldn't touch a Dell with a 10" pole, having known 3 people all had discovered serious problem with their Dell laptops within weeks of purchasing.
While there are Wintel laptops lighter than the iBook, none has longer battery life and full features. Another huge advantage of the Apple portables is that they all come free with much more best-of-class software than any of the Windows or Linux machines: iPhotos, iMovies, iTunes, iCal, iSync, iChat, and so on.
If you are a programmer and loves play with Unix and open standards, you simply can't get a better deal than Mac OS X. For instance, OS X comes with gcc 3.1 enhanced by Apple to handle Objective C / C++ on top of standard C / C++, and there are dozens of other tools that allow you to write and debug native Carbon, Cocoa, QuickTime, OpenGL, or terminal applications. Many popular open source applications (such as Perl, Ruby, Apatche, X11) are preloaded, and others (like MySql, PostgreSQL) can be downloaded and installed with a few mouse clicks. Project Builder and Interface Builder are free and much more powerful than tools on any other Unix platforms including Linux. In contrast, MS Visual Studio.NET costs up to $3000.
If you go to www.dfsdirectsales.com -- not the Dell outlet site, but the Dell Financial Services direct sales site -- you'll find systems that Dell leased out, and has since taken back. Because Windows was "licensed" to the original user and cannot be transferred, these systems are all sold without operating systems! (The Microsoft tax has already been paid; you don't have to pay it again.)
I don't think you're to beat a 12 inch iBook or Powerbook for small and light, though, and if "[p]erformance isn't a major concern," why are you worried about it enough to rule out a Mac?
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
Qli sells new laptops with Linux preinstalled. Their prices range from one thousand to over two, for a fully loaded machine. They don't sell any that are tiny, like the Vaio, but there are other companies that do sell refurbished laptops and small form factor laptops with no Windows tax. I chose Qli because I was looking for a particular feature set, and because one of their installation options is Gentoo, which is my current favorite distribution.
I got an 1800MHz, 512MB (2GB max), 15.1" LCD, 20Gb, DVD/CDRW laptop for a shade over $1800. It has onboard ethernet, three USB (one of which is USB 2.0), onboard firewire, and a single CardBus slot. It was, practically, the perfect configuration I was looking for; the price was reasonable, and (as I said) they offered Gentoo as an install option.
My experience with Qli has been good. I agreed that they would install Gentoo 1.4, which is technically still beta, and this was Qli's first 1.4 laptop, so I had to do some work after the machine arrived to get it fully configured. I would expect that if you chose Gentoo 1.2, Mandrake, or Redhat, it would arrive fully configured. Qli provides a large number of installation options, and money you pay for the distribution of your choice (which varies) goes to the distribution.
The best thing about Qli, IME, was the customer service. The staff are extremely knowledgable and helpful, and are good about responding to support requests. They have a good understanding of kernel configurations, from which kernel modules are required to support which features to various configuration options.
I'm also very happy with the hardware. Although it isn't yet supported by Linux, I was pleasantly surprised that the laptop came with an unadvertised MMC/SD slot.
There are a couple of hangups with my particular hardware, but none of it is Qli's fault. The laptop is entirely ACPI, and ACPI support in Linux is immature. Consequently, I can't suspend the laptop (!) -- yet. OpenGL is proved to be a bear to get working, but this is due to my choice of distributions; apparently, Redhat on this laptop has full accellerated GL support out of the box. There is an onboard WinModem, but we know about those.
In summary, I can recommend Qli. You need to evaluate your own requirements, and then send them an email before you buy. They'll give you status reports on various configurations and recommend a system for you.
[Disclaimer] I do not work for Qli, and I don't receive any compensation for recommending them. My only relationship with Qli is that I've recently purchased a laptop from them.