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Buying a Small, Light Linux Notebook Computer?
"I have no Windows software and will not be running any, not even via WINE. I have no
desire to go through the hassle of purchasing software I'm not going to use and
then fighting to get a token rebate that doesn't actually equate to the cost of a Windows license. Nor am I interested in buying a machine that was purchased with a Windows license, and simply having Windows erased with no refund given.
So far I've found iDot Computers, who will sell laptops with no OS installed. Unfortunately, their lightest,
smallest offering is a hefty 2.8kg brick, 3cm bigger than the iBook in width and depth. What I really want is something comparable to a Toshiba Libretto or Sony VAIO R505--except that neither of those companies want to sell me a machine without Windows.
I'm sure plenty of Slashdot readers have faced the same problem--what's the solution?"
Always this emphasis on performance...
a Jedi craves not these things, only affordability.
http://emperorlinux.com/
... I say you just buy the machine you want. Don't want windows? Throw the disc out ... you want a computer right? Don't turn everything into a political statement.
The benefit? You get laptops with full knowledge of exactly what does and what doesn't work under linux.
The catch? You pay the same (or more) as you would in the high street and don't get the shiny Windows CD.
Frankly
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
Small, lightweight, runs Unix, nice GUI, long battery life, etc...
I'm in a similar situation, only I've never owned a Mac. Anyway, I think I've decided upon buying a 12" powerbook (and yes, I read the reviews of them). Not sure if that's too rich for your blood but it sounds like a good deal to me.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
that's what I did. it did come with win98, but I deleted it right off.
just be careful when buying used- I made the mistake of buying from a tradeshow and it took 2 months before I could get a usable one.
I did end up with a gateway solo2150 which is working pretty well.
if you're not playing games, a 600 mhz will work fine. I have kde 3.1 and openoffice on debian and it runs with little lag.
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
www.powernotebooks.com
windows tax not required. was in a slashdot article awhile back.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's called a power book.
Yao and mini-me use 'em, why can't you?
"Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling...." - Abraham Simpson
Called them today looking at laptops. Told her I did not want to pay for XP , she told me that removing it would void the waranty on the laptop! She suggested that I buy a bigger drive and do a split partion. I was disgusted that I Was going to be charged even more just to run linux. I am not even sure how software can void a hardware warranty. The call ended with them still having a laptop and me still looking.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
Try http://www.powernotebooks.com I bought my laptop from there and am very pleased. I did not buy windows with it because they give you the option. It runs linux great and they have a wide selection to choose from. From light to mobile workstation. Check it out.
I recently switched to a new 12 inch iBook running yellow dog linux, and I have to say its great. Although it may not be as portable some windows superslims, its battery life, and performance make it a superb choice. Also, i have had zero driver issues with my iBook, which is a lot more than I can say about install redhat on my old thinkpad.
maybe you could find some usful info here too http://www.linux-laptop.net/
Since you've ruled out the iBook, I'd suggest that you look for a laptop that meets your requirements on the used market (eBay, local want ads, computer resellers, outlets that deal in refurbished and formerly leased equipment). Someone else will have already paid the Windows Tax for you, and the money you save will more than compensate for the time you'll have to spend scraping Windows off the hard drive and installing your operating system of choice.
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
I seriously doubt that those machines are "Microsoft Free": Emperor Linux most likely doesn't have the purchasing power to force Sony and other vendors to sell them machines without Windows licenses. Most likely, all they do is erase the Windows partition for you.
For more information about Linux on laptops, go to the web page about Linux on laptops; help can be found in the Usenet newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc or comp.os.linux.hardware
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
i don't know about linux compatibility, but it sounds like in terms of HARDWARE you're looking for something like Fujitsu P-series or so. Fujitsu P-Series page. it doesn't have firewire, but it has everything else you want. here's a page talking about putting linux (debian) on it i think i've seen firewire pcmcia cards, so that might be the solution. I don't know about getting it without windows, but that's the breaks... Like another poster said, not *everything* has to be a political statement. You could just video tape yourself burning or shitting on your windows CD in front of a linux flag or something. ;)
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Be prepared for a lot of sales people to go "Sorry, we cannot allow you to boot that CD".
Kind of ironic that you're not permitted to 'test' the machine you're about to fork out several thousand dollars for.
When I was last searching for a laptop I encountered this brick-wall mentality, consequently I ended up telling them "Oh, in that case, no sale, goodbye" ( Commissions obviously doesn't exist in sales any more ).
As for the reasoning behind the no-fiddle mentality, it's because they're afraid that you'll install some sort of hacker software.
Now this could probably be considered a switch story..but I still use Windows/Linux, so it's more that I have just added one more to the list.
I recently acquired the last model of the PowerBook series. 15"/G4/1G RAM. I must say I am very impressed with the hardware, the size, the layout, etc. I'm still trying to get used to the Operating System.
I do a lot of Java Development, and have gotten my favorite IDE to work (Eclipse), and have gotten JBoss to run semi-succesfully. There are a lot of things to get used to though. The built in mouse has but one button, so you must ctrl->click to do a right click...that is annoying as heck. So, purchase an external mouse whatever you do.
being able to drop to the shell and be in a familiar place is very nice. Install Fink and you can apt-get your favorite software. There are a lot of apps out there...more than I thought there was (www.versiontracker.com).
All in all...I'd say get a PowerBook and leave OS X on it, and install your favorite Open-source software.
If you choose to wipe it clean and install a version of Linux...it is still very impressive hardware, so you should be in a win-win situation.
My two cents...
-= Xafloc =-
alinuxbox.com
N
Neocomputers.com will sell you a custom laptop. You can also purchase it without Windows on it.
Here is a link to the custom laptop page.
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
If there's one place where Apple kicks ass (and I'm of the opinion there are more), it's in full-featured notebooks.
Dude! You're getting an Apple!
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
than the ibook, though i must say i've carried around my son's ibook, and it feels great sizewise. and, they are pretty darn reasonable now. of course, the advantage of booting into osx for itunes and such makes it an even better buy. the g4 powerbook is larger than some of the supersmall x86 machines, but how many of those have slot loading dvd recorders?
These are a stunning laptop. I love mine. Only criticism is that it gets hot. They're small, light, firewire, 2x USB, DVD burner, good battery life, monitor spanning support, built in ethernet and modem ... the list goes on.
The catch is always software. With Mac OS X, you get great software. Better by far than any Linux configuration on the desktop. Want to burn a CD? Insert the bank CD, drag the files onto it, and then eject it ("do you wish to burn this CD?")
How easy is that? I don't have time to fsck around with cdrecord and mkisofs anymore. I just want to burn a goddamned CD. I just want to connect to a wireless network. I just want to watch a DVD. I just want to fire up emacs and write some code. I don't want to tinker and stuff around all day making things work.
So remember, hardware is half the story. Software is the other. If you can take the mac premium price, you get the best of both worlds.
Ash OS durbatulk, ash OS gimbatul, ash OS thrakatulk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul! Uzg-MS-ishi amal fauthut burgulli.
Here is something odd. As people have been posting links I have been eagerly following them. I am noticing a disturbing trend. Every link has led to a place that had laptops on average $500 to $1000 more than the same laptop from a major vendor with windows on it. I am starting to think that we linux lovers may be taking it up the butt the same way that vegetarians get reamed for "Organic" produce..
See a market , exploit that market and I think we may being exploited here.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
Technically the oem pays for Windows. This is why its hard to return it. Yes, I relize that most OEM's just pass the cost to the consumer but its not that much since OEM's buy in bulk.
Dell, HP, and Toshiba also get massive bulk discounts in laptop parts which makes up for the price. Dell's are cheap because of this. Go to their website and look at entry level pc's for just $700. Its cheaper to buy a Windows based laptop from Dell and reformat the drive and install Linux then to buy from some small no name company that specialised in Linux but does not get bulk pricing.
Just pay the extra $25 dollars. IBM only pays $15 per copy of Windows for each pc from what I read back in the anti trust trial when ms strong armed it to kill os/2. The price has gone up for Windows alot but its no big deal and its nothing compared to the amount Windows cost in a store. I am sure the money saved from buying from a big outlet is probably hundreds of dollars so more money is being saved.
Or if you hate ms and refuse to support them go buy a powerbook from apple.
They are pricy but have been known for over a decade to be supperior quality. Apple invented alot of the cool stuff in laptops today. The finger pads on laptops for mouse movements is an example of apple's inventions. You can run Linux on a mac as well as have a big selection of software to choose from with MacOSX. Adobe photoshop, IE, MS-Office, games, etc. Another benefit of the mac is that the linux distro's will work better and be less buggy then intel ones because of the limited hardware. They don't need to support 3,000 peripherals from god knows where. They are less buggy and standard configurations are heavily tested by the mac-linux community. This is one of the arguements still used for Unix over Linux. It is heavily integrated with the hardware.
http://saveie6.com/
they won't even support their laptops connecting to a non-Apple wireless access point.
oh really. i bought an ibook and called them up when i couldn't connect to my linksys WAP. the guy told me exactly what i needed to do. very helpful. if you want to bash apple, at least know wtf you're talking about.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
I decided against saying something terribly insightful about the "Microsoft Tax".
/. populace will ram shit and vinegar down the throats of the companies that build PC laptops because they preload Windows on them, but it seems fine and dandy to pay for a notebook from another supplier, and get the OS you don't want there either. Why?
I *do* find it F*cking hillarious that you would buy and Apple notebook computer, and load linux onto it, and be just as happy.
OHMYGOD: Apple won't sell a laptop without an OS either. THE BASTARDS!
It's quite odd that the
You feel better about paying the "Apple Tax"?
Now, Merits of Mac OS X aside, if the poster wants *Linux* on the desktop, buying an iBook hardly fixes the problem, as a matter of fact, it does just encourages Apple, 'Cause no-one complains.
In an Ideal world, you could buy that notebook Windows free. Trouble is, welcome to earth. Suppliers like companies that build millions a year vs thousands a year. They get cheaper access to the components to build laptops. Even if you find a distributor that ships and OS-free laptop, the added cost for that distributor to build laptops in small quantity would drive up the price, most likely past the point of buying one with Windows included.
Buy the laptop based on what you want it to have, suck it up and chuck away the Windows or MacOS license. Or resell it on ebay.
Now, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
It's been said, but not like this.
Look, what you really want is a PowerBook. You know it, everyone here knows it. You just won't admit it.
So let's compare features. The Apple certainly has no potential whatsoever of running Microsoft Windows except through some complete emulation/virtualization software. Score one for Apple. The Apple comes with an actual GUI far superior to Microsoft Windows (not even a contest) and much more polished than your typical UNIX GUI. Score another (or a couple) for Apple.
Want more? Well, your Mac is actually capable of running Microsoft Office should you later find yourself in a bind and be REQUIRED to deal with it to put food on the table. On the plus side, you can always pirate it and you don't need Windows or Windows emulation software to run it. That's worth about a half a point (MS Office isn't that great in my book). Your Mac will also be able to run just about any open source program you want. Furthermore, Apple has now even decided to provide an official version of X11 which they have even extended to allow full access to the OpenGL extensions. That means that you can create "lickable" GUIs using the X Window System.
But even if you don't want to run Mac OS X (and trust me, you will), you can always run Linux on it. There are several very good quality PowerPC distros available. Furthermore, even if you go this route, it still doesn't preclude you from running MacOS X (or 7 8 or 9 for that matter) using the mac on linux software.
And on top of all of that you'll be supporting a company who actually understands that it is customers that drive the bottom line; a company that creates GUIs that even your mom can understand, GUIs that actually make sense and help you get on with what you are trying to do-- especially if you are a hard-core geek.
So please at least consider the Powerbook. It's a sleek machine, it's extremely solidly built (well, the 12" model I hear leaves something to be desired, but the rest are excellent). It comes with a good OS. You can run Linux on it. And you're not supporting a company that supports Microsoft. In fact, you are supporting a company that actually competes with Microsoft (on some small level). A company whose CEO made a little deal with Microsoft and got a lot of gain for very little (putting MS IE in as the default browser, BFD).
In short: you know you want it dude!
Buy a Used Laptop. Someone else may already have consumed a MS license on that hardware, true, but you will not be consuming one yourself. None of your money will be heading to Redmond (unless you account for the effect of resale value of hardware that was originally sold with a MS license).
:-)
eBay is a great place to start looking
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
Microsoft site licenses usually require companies to pay for machines which don't have Windows on them. I can only imagine that Microsoft makes the same requirements on computer vendors when they sell machines without Windows, or with some other OS. So even if you buy a new machine without Windows, you will probably still be lining Microsoft's pockets buying such a machine.
:)
And as another poster mentioned, you will probably spend way more money buying such a machine from some no-name vendor (and still pay the Microsoft tax) compared to the cheaper price of a name-brand laptop with Windows pre-installed.
One alternative for the poster is to sell a $50 pen with a free copy of Windows included
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
Metamatic -
... so it worked for me) :
Sounds like you want a used machine. I would suggest looking on ebay and/or the computer refurb houses for a machine that is maybe a year old, go with a high quality manufacturer and it could still be under warranty (I personally like Dell, I have three within arms reach of me, counting laptops and my server.)
The only issue I see going with hardware that is a year+ old is the 1394 connection - but if it was top of the line a year ago it should have that connection (my last Latitude C800 did and it was a year and a half old.)
Note that you should be able to find a one year old machine for about half of what it cost new, but remember that today's hardware costs less than top of the line gear did a year ago and is much faster. Based on what I remember, you should be able to get whatever was top of the line a year ago for the same price as the entry level stuff new, but the entry level stuff is going to be about 1.5x as fast as the one year old top of the line machine.
I am not saying it will give you the best bang for the buck, but it will satisify your entire request. Personally I would buy a new entry level machine from Dell (or your favorite company) for about $750 delivered and then toss the XP CD / license in your closet. Add some aftermarket RAM and networking gear and you are all set - for about $900 including the 802.11b.
I just checked, Dell has a laptop (the Inspiron 2650C) on sale for $700 after rebate (yes, rebates suck but I did get mine back
14" screen XGA
128M RAM (www.crucial.com)
20G hd
24x CD
16MB DDR 4X AGP NVIDIA GeForce2 Go(TM)Vid
Floppy
Integrated 56k modem and NIC
1 year warranty.
If you didn't want to jack with the warranty ($150) you could get the 802.11b PCMCIA card and a 802.11b router (I didn't bother to read the details) instead. Brings the price of the system to $850.
Upgrade to a 15" screen for $50.
Nice.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
IBM ThinkPads work well with Linux. You might have to sell the farm to afford one, but they're quality.
I have a Sony U3 that I just got in Japan, and I tried to install Red Hat on it. Ha. Red Hat had no idea what was going on, it couldn't find a sound card, anything to use the extra buttons, jog dials etc. and the resolution was terrible. Needless to say, I put my M$ back on, cried, and then slipped it into my shirt pocket.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
Just pay the extra $25 dollars.
Is there something wrong with someone standing up for principles? I think you should be able to buy hardware without buying software (and iBooks don't accomplish this) , regardless of how little it turns out to be when you work out the math. I'm told that MS makes most of their windows-license money from new PC's, so it certainly is not an insignificant amount ($25 is much less than I have heard from other sources)
Just wondering-the author was looking to buy an iBook, but is blantantly opposed to paying the M$ tax. What about the Apple tax that come with Apple hardware? Apple won't sell hardware without an OS.
The iBook is cute, but, IMHO overpriced. Moreso, the lack of a PC Card slot and the lack of IR means I won't be getting one.
The author is going out of his way to avoid giving MS any money for something he won't use, but seemed to have no problem paying apple for software he won't use. My point is perhaps he should not be outright opposed to buying windows if he gets a better machine. Windows "only" adds maybe $30 to the cost of a PC.
today. The finger pads on laptops for mouse movements is an example of apple's inventions.
Personally I prefer nipples
Must have USB and Firewire, built-in ethernet, and 802.11b support ... Small is important, lightweight is important, long battery life is important. I don't care about screen size ... Performance isn't a major concern... don't play games ... will not pay for windows
uh, get an ibook? oh wait...
seriously, ibook + osx + fink + apple X11 == everything you want in a linux laptop, except for the ugly fonts. If you're dying for more speed get the new 12" G4 Powerbook (~$1700), which is just like the ibook only smaller in every dimension, and faster.
why exactly does your current ibook fail your requirements, anyway?
If you've decided to acquiesce on the "no-Windows" stance, I'd suggest looking at the CNET Notebook section for info. There are sections are for value as well as thin and light notebooks, among others, and looking through those sections is a lot quicker than navigating through the separate laptop sections on each manufacturer's website.
My take on notebooks (currently); wait. Banias is around the corner (March 12 last I heard) bringing +3 hour battery time coupled with excellent performance (it's easy to find slower laptops with significantly longer battery times though). Cost will be an issue (if you're looking at sub-$1500), so I'd suggest waiting even longer after Banias. Having performance, price and portability all in one laptop is about to become possible though; all you need to do is hold off from purchasing for a bit more.
Who would of thought that over half the people answering this question suggested iBooks or Powerbooks?
Think this would of happened 2 years ago?
If you want to make a statement by spending an extra $500- $1000 just to not have Windows, fine. I suggest you can make a more effective statement by just getting the commodity laptop and giving the $500+ you save over an allegedy "Windows-free" machine to GNU, BSD, and/or EFF, depending upon the particular point you are trying to make.
If you truly want to avoid money going to MS, just get an iBook ( or Powerbook if you can swing it.) Those are great, sturdy, well-arranged machines. Actually, I'm not sure how sturdy the Powerbooks are but the iBooks are unbelievable and really are made for 12-year olds as far as being tossed in backpacks and so on.
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
Just pay the extra $25 dollars.
That sounds like the kind of thing that started a certain tea party in Boston...
When you buy online, most companies such as Dell, IBM, Compaq, etc. will force you to buy some software package.
:)
If you, however, call them on the phone and talk to one of their sales reps, you can have the bundled software removed (including the OS).
I would recommend a Dell, or if you have the money for it, an IBM Thinkpad. I love my ThinkPad.
You just have to talk to a real person, which I understand is sometimes difficult for some computer literate people, but you have to work to get what you want in life.
I just replaced a R505 with a 12" PowerBook. In every respect, the Apple is the superior machine:
The R505 series of Vaio feel very very cheap. The nice metal cover that had been on the older series Vaios has been replaced by a run-of-the-mill piece of plastic. After a year, the screen hinge barely works, and the power adapter socket will only make an adequate connection when I hold it just right.
On paper, the R505 is smaller, but it doesn't feel any smaller. The way the 12"PB is hinged makes it open in a very compact way - unlike the R505 which seems to need a great deal more room to fully open. On a train or plane, the 12" PB can be held on the tray table with the screen at a reasonable angle even with the seat reclined in front of you. No chance of doing this with the Vaio.
Finally, the PB12" is much much smaller when you consider its relative size with the DVD drive installed. On the Vaio, you need to plug the unit into its base to get the DVD drive - doubling the size and weight of the thing. With the Apple, it's just there, and just works.
You say you're fine with a PCMCIA 802.11 solution, but have you really used one of these for any length of time? The antenna portion of the card makes for an awkward fit - especially compared with the elegance of the Mac's built-in airport.
Don't get me started on OSX. You want to run Linux why? Honestly, with X11 installed within OSX, I'm finding it hard to find reasons to run Linux.
According to Gateway's testomany in the MS court case : "Gateway also faulted another provision of the new licensing agreement, which requires PC makers to pay a Windows royalty on every PC shipped, even if it didn't include Windows. To top it off, to qualify for market development funds, PC makers have to put a Microsoft OS on every PC. As a result, trying to sell non-Windows PCs, or even PCs without software, is a financial loser for computer makers." http://news.com.com/2100-1001-868413.html
Sounds like a Transmeta device would be right on target. You can then avoid both windows and intel.
http://www.antelopetech.com
http://www.transmeta.com
If you go to www.dfsdirectsales.com -- not the Dell outlet site, but the Dell Financial Services direct sales site -- you'll find systems that Dell leased out, and has since taken back. Because Windows was "licensed" to the original user and cannot be transferred, these systems are all sold without operating systems! (The Microsoft tax has already been paid; you don't have to pay it again.)
I don't think you're to beat a 12 inch iBook or Powerbook for small and light, though, and if "[p]erformance isn't a major concern," why are you worried about it enough to rule out a Mac?
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
Qli sells new laptops with Linux preinstalled. Their prices range from one thousand to over two, for a fully loaded machine. They don't sell any that are tiny, like the Vaio, but there are other companies that do sell refurbished laptops and small form factor laptops with no Windows tax. I chose Qli because I was looking for a particular feature set, and because one of their installation options is Gentoo, which is my current favorite distribution.
I got an 1800MHz, 512MB (2GB max), 15.1" LCD, 20Gb, DVD/CDRW laptop for a shade over $1800. It has onboard ethernet, three USB (one of which is USB 2.0), onboard firewire, and a single CardBus slot. It was, practically, the perfect configuration I was looking for; the price was reasonable, and (as I said) they offered Gentoo as an install option.
My experience with Qli has been good. I agreed that they would install Gentoo 1.4, which is technically still beta, and this was Qli's first 1.4 laptop, so I had to do some work after the machine arrived to get it fully configured. I would expect that if you chose Gentoo 1.2, Mandrake, or Redhat, it would arrive fully configured. Qli provides a large number of installation options, and money you pay for the distribution of your choice (which varies) goes to the distribution.
The best thing about Qli, IME, was the customer service. The staff are extremely knowledgable and helpful, and are good about responding to support requests. They have a good understanding of kernel configurations, from which kernel modules are required to support which features to various configuration options.
I'm also very happy with the hardware. Although it isn't yet supported by Linux, I was pleasantly surprised that the laptop came with an unadvertised MMC/SD slot.
There are a couple of hangups with my particular hardware, but none of it is Qli's fault. The laptop is entirely ACPI, and ACPI support in Linux is immature. Consequently, I can't suspend the laptop (!) -- yet. OpenGL is proved to be a bear to get working, but this is due to my choice of distributions; apparently, Redhat on this laptop has full accellerated GL support out of the box. There is an onboard WinModem, but we know about those.
In summary, I can recommend Qli. You need to evaluate your own requirements, and then send them an email before you buy. They'll give you status reports on various configurations and recommend a system for you.
[Disclaimer] I do not work for Qli, and I don't receive any compensation for recommending them. My only relationship with Qli is that I've recently purchased a laptop from them.