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PCGen to Charge for Data Files

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the well-isn't-that-nice dept.

ChrisDolan writes "The folks who benevolently dictate the creation of PCGen, a D20 character generator tool (e.g. for D&D), are going to start charging for downloads of data files. This comes after a long series of talks with Wizards of the Coast. The PCGen code will continue to be LGPL, but some of the data files (a separate download) will be more encumbered than just OGL (Open Gaming License). The specific data files that will cost are ones that were never released under OGL and have WotC IP in them. Details on the Code Monkeys site." PCGen is a nifty app, but all this stuff annoys me. I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.

21 of 158 comments (clear)

  1. Is this really a surprise? by TopShelf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1) Charging for content that contains corporate IP, and

    2) A company finding another way to try and squeeze a few dollars of revenue during tough times.

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:Is this really a surprise? by 56ker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm going to point out at all the Quake and Doom mods that were sold commerically on CDs. You were just paying for custom characters, maps etc - and you could get them for free. However the commercial efforts were usually more professional. Hosting files on any popular website is expensive in bandwidth. They're probably just trying to make ends meet. What would people have said if they'd put up banner ads instead - or even worse popups?

      --


      Video Game cheats, hints a
    2. Re:Is this really a surprise? by The+Mgt · · Score: 3, Interesting
      However the commercial efforts were usually more professional.


      Threewave CTF ? Team Fortress ?
    3. Re:Is this really a surprise? by Saxerman · · Score: 5, Informative
      Hosting files on any popular website is expensive in bandwidth. They're probably just trying to make ends meet.

      These closed source data files were already typed up and hosted on sourceforge before WotC stepped in and put a halt to their distribution. This means fans of the d20 system already did the work to write up the data files using the dead tree books they already paid for. They were then hosting it on a system which WotC had nothing to do with, and didn't have to pay for. Fans were already filling this gap for free.

      The key here, I think, is control. Wizards is afraid that by allowing the guys at PcGen to distribute their IP for free, people would lose interesting in buying the dead tree versions. To try and counter this threat, much of the write ups in the fan created content contained notes such as "As defined on page 231 of the Players Handbook". This compromise wasn't good enough, it seems.

      As another point of interest, Wizards already created and sells their own version of a Character Creator for the d20 system which basically competes directly with the open source PcGen. You can download the demo version for free from their website. As you say, the commercial effort is a lot more professional than PcGen, but PcGen has a lot more features.

      --

      A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.

  2. Why, back in my day... by TopShelf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    we didn't need any fancy computer to whip up characters. Just 3d6, a pencil and paper. Most of the iterations since have just been sales-driven product releases.

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:Why, back in my day... by sheetsda · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have to say I like third edition much better than second. It's much easier to play and to convince newbies to play because mysterious concepts like THAC0 have been eliminated in favor of a more intuitive system. I wouldn't say it was sheerly a sales-motivated release, it was also an improvement.

      On a semirelevant note, I modified an IRC bot I wrote to roll arbitrary numbers of dice of arbitrary sides and print totals to the channel so if for some reason you're playing over IRC you don't have to rely on any person to roll dice, this way everyone can see the roll. See here.

  3. Who wants to bet... by Drakin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That you'll be able to download them off your favorite P2P client in a short time?

    Boy... Wotc is sure grabbing for money now... this play, as well as the upcoming revised editions of the core books... which in all likely hood will not get the same reduction in price to start with as the un revised version did...

  4. Waaahhh... by Evangelion · · Score: 3, Insightful


    Really now -- how much do RPG gamers typically spend on thier book collections (generally measured in bookshelf-yards -- I'm only up to about 4 feet or so, but I've been slacking off lately)? I don't even want to START adding up the cover prices of those books. Is a little extra cash to get the convinience of some of that data on a computer really going to hurt the pocket book?

    Anyway, I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that you have to pay for all of the GURPS character creators, as SJ Games certainly won't let you give thier data away for free. But it happens to a d20 chargen, and people start whining? Whatever.

    1. Re:Waaahhh... by rknop · · Score: 3, Informative

      Anyway, I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that you have to pay for all of the GURPS character creators, as SJ Games certainly won't let you give thier data away for free.

      This is demonstrably false:

      http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/utilities/

      It can't be "free" in the "libre" sense, no. But from the way you state it ("have to pay") it's very clear that you are talking about "free as in beer", and the very links on SJGames' own site prove that you're incorrect about what they'll let you do.

      -Rob

  5. Doesn't Suprise Me by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Giving away code is one thing but giving away someone else copyright is another. I imagine if they are going to be distributing stuff that is in the 3rd edition rules they had to make some sort of deal with WotC to do so. WotC is going to want some cash out of the deal so naturally Codemonkey is going to have to charge for this.

    Before people light the tourches and storm the castle lets remember WotC past. They have been a lot better company than TSR ever was with IP stuff. The cost of the downloads might be reasonable. Its no differet than when they released the code to the Quake engine but still required you to buy the data paks to run it on Linux.

    With WotC past efforts I'm willing to give them more than the doubt before I tar and feather anyone.

    --

    Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

  6. A little offtopic... by travail_jgd · · Score: 4, Informative

    "I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice."

    And if you want to be "current", you're going to have to buy all the 3E books again. WotC is releasing what they call 3.5E -- updates to the three core rulebooks (PHB, DMG, and MM). Going forward, only the 3.5E system will be supported.

    There is no trade-in or rebate offer for owners of the previous edition. So you're going to have to pay for 3E "twice" either way.

    1. Re:A little offtopic... by FroBugg · · Score: 4, Informative

      As I understand it, all or nearly all of the changes have been included in System Reference Document, which you can easily get for free (or maybe a couple bucks if you want to print it all out).

      Apart from fancy binding, pretty pictures, and flavor text that you can get from 3E, what are the 3.5E books gonna have that isn't here?

    2. Re:A little offtopic... by sporty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Did you know that you can buy a computer today, and in 6 months, you are already obsoleted? No buybacks, not refunds.. nothing. In fact, you'd have to sell it used.

      I think people should be used to this by now. It's called, economics. No one wants to buy back tangibles that they sold you. It's your fault you bought them.. and it's your fault if you buy the newest ones.

      Besides, is the game THAT much more fun between 3.0 and 3.5? Isn't your GM supposed to make adjustments to the games when he see's fit? Hell, i've seen really random spells given out when there's a plot difficulty. I.e. "Damn, no one knows how to talk to this creature, and our guy who is multilingual is in jail." "Ok, I'm giving you a spell just so that you can understand any one language you choose, but you can only do that language. No dual tounges while you use it. But when you go back to your old language, you retain the knowledge of what you talked about. Level 5, costs xxx mp."

      And also, if you really need those books, get everyone in your group to pitch in and buy the latest ones.

      Cripes..

      --

      -
      ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only

  7. Brilliant Q&A by Queuetue · · Score: 4, Informative

    Everyone else may have already read this, but this Q&A about Open Games is probably the most clueful thing I've read in weeks - including the open and honest justification for the creation of OG. Ver well written, credit where due, and exhibits an openness that I appreciate.

    Look at it here

  8. Re:Charge users twice? heh heh by JanneM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What do you mean "have to"? Just continue to play with the version 3 ruleset; the books won't suddenly turn into dust just because there's a new version out.

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  9. Annoying, but necissary by Rydia · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sure, the fee is a pain, but I would like to stress how good a product PCGen is. I play 3 sessions a week, and although I only use PCGen for one of them (The others are an insanely complicated multi-prestige-class-class-altering-equipment-usin g monk/cleric/thing and another is essentially a crane samurai under the Rokugan d20 rules), the rest of my party in all 3 (and the DM sometimes) use it for quick, easy character generation, because it's fast, it's easy to level up your character, you have a nice backup in case your sheet turns into a dew towel and let's face it, some players are either too new to do this without some assistance (whether PCGen or another player) or just really, really suck at simple math.

    That said, I would really like PCGen to stop paying full attention to just wizards. Yes, it's D&D, d20 is the 3E system and D&D is a very important game. But I think this is a VERY good opportunity to help some excellent companies (or at least one) who are REALLY in bad shape, and have been for a long time. I'm refering, of course, to Alderac Entertainment Group, publishers of two excellent games (L5R CCG and RPG) who started after wizards and really never stood a chance in hell of unseating them, and have been sitting around getting financially beaten up because no one will give their product a second look. It would be really, really nice if PCGen would branch out and try to include a game like L5R to help a great company (who at the moment have to pay their writers something like 2 cents per word. Well, at least the one I know) and help those of us who play either Oriental Adventures or Rokugan d20 in a conventional or L5R setting. For an extra few bucks, I think that would be a good deal for everyone involved.

  10. If you have the books... by More+Karma+Than+God · · Score: 3, Informative

    And the software is open source why can't you just create the database by yourself?

    A useful open source "product" would be a data entry program designed to make the creation and editing of these databases easy.

    Sure, it's more work, but you shouldn't have any copyright issues unless you distribute the data you entered.

    --
    Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
  11. Why not let users enter their own datafiles? by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Aside from the high probability of downloading the files from elsewhere, what about giving the users the instructions on how to generate the datafiles given that they own the books? That way they would have paid for the IP already (by buying the books).

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  12. God forbid... (-1: Dissenting Opinion) by Lendrick · · Score: 3

    PCGen is a nifty app, but all this stuff annoys me. I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.

    The PCGen folks work out a deal with Wizards to so that they can license material that's not covered by the Open Gaming License, and you're complaining about it.

    If you feel that strongly about not paying twice, no one is making you buy it. Additionally, you're totally free to create and distribute Open Gaming Content yourself. God forbid someone try and make a little money for their work.

  13. Check the whole facts. by InThane · · Score: 3, Informative

    According to Wizards of the Coast, all of the modifications made from 3.0 to 3.5 will be released, free of charge, as part of the Standard Reference Document. You can use those as a template for "upgrading" your campaign, if you want.

    Me? I'm sticking with my 3.0 books, and I'll borrow from what I like in 3.5, but I'm not shelling out the money. Quit whining! Sheesh, it's like you think you deserve free copies of the new books, or something...

    --
    InThane
  14. My My My... Busy aren't we all? by Mynex · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ook! (that's monkey for greetings) I see that everyone is having fun bashing away happily at WotC, CMP, and things in general. I just thought I'd stop in and make a target, er, post myself here. ;) Couple things a lot of you seem to be missing... mostly missing are additional facts. So, let me point you to were you can read what's what... then feel free to flame/complain/moan/groan/congradulate/pat on back/yell/scream/holler away. ;) 1st, the main announcement about things is located on our main page at http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com That give an overview of things... more specifics are here: http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/modules.php?op =modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12 9 okay.. that should give you all the fuel you need to pick your favorite adjective to use! ready, set, flame! ;p *note - I am _VERY_ tongue in cheek and sarcastic, not with intent to annoy anyone (usully. ;p) but for simple humors sake. Ask questions, they're more than welcome, please refrain from personal flames though, that's not needed and unwelcome.