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PCGen to Charge for Data Files
ChrisDolan writes "The folks who benevolently dictate the creation of PCGen, a D20 character generator tool (e.g. for D&D), are going to start charging for downloads of data files. This comes after a long series of talks with Wizards of the Coast. The PCGen code will continue to be LGPL, but some of the data files (a separate download) will be more encumbered than just OGL (Open Gaming License). The specific data files that will cost are ones that were never released under OGL and have WotC IP in them. Details on the Code Monkeys site." PCGen is a nifty app, but all this stuff annoys me. I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.
1) Charging for content that contains corporate IP, and
2) A company finding another way to try and squeeze a few dollars of revenue during tough times.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
we didn't need any fancy computer to whip up characters. Just 3d6, a pencil and paper. Most of the iterations since have just been sales-driven product releases.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
... with Pgen the Genesis emulator for PS2.
In case you haven't noticed, Wizards of the Coast is just about to release a whole new edition of D&D--or at least half of one. 3rd Revised, or 3.5th as it's come to be called. So everyone who shelled out for the PHB, DMG, and MM is going to have to buy them all over again.
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
That you'll be able to download them off your favorite P2P client in a short time?
Boy... Wotc is sure grabbing for money now... this play, as well as the upcoming revised editions of the core books... which in all likely hood will not get the same reduction in price to start with as the un revised version did...
Really now -- how much do RPG gamers typically spend on thier book collections (generally measured in bookshelf-yards -- I'm only up to about 4 feet or so, but I've been slacking off lately)? I don't even want to START adding up the cover prices of those books. Is a little extra cash to get the convinience of some of that data on a computer really going to hurt the pocket book?
Anyway, I don't see anyone complaining about the fact that you have to pay for all of the GURPS character creators, as SJ Games certainly won't let you give thier data away for free. But it happens to a d20 chargen, and people start whining? Whatever.
Giving away code is one thing but giving away someone else copyright is another. I imagine if they are going to be distributing stuff that is in the 3rd edition rules they had to make some sort of deal with WotC to do so. WotC is going to want some cash out of the deal so naturally Codemonkey is going to have to charge for this.
Before people light the tourches and storm the castle lets remember WotC past. They have been a lot better company than TSR ever was with IP stuff. The cost of the downloads might be reasonable. Its no differet than when they released the code to the Quake engine but still required you to buy the data paks to run it on Linux.
With WotC past efforts I'm willing to give them more than the doubt before I tar and feather anyone.
Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
Just how can WOTC think that some third party software that encourages gameplay can hurt them. This is greed pure and simple. I say that the software is fair use. It isn't designed to copy what Wizards has created, only supplement it. What's next? Adventures created by the players?
Brought to you by the Artificial Idea Factory.
"I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice."
And if you want to be "current", you're going to have to buy all the 3E books again. WotC is releasing what they call 3.5E -- updates to the three core rulebooks (PHB, DMG, and MM). Going forward, only the 3.5E system will be supported.
There is no trade-in or rebate offer for owners of the previous edition. So you're going to have to pay for 3E "twice" either way.
Everyone else may have already read this, but this Q&A about Open Games is probably the most clueful thing I've read in weeks - including the open and honest justification for the creation of OG. Ver well written, credit where due, and exhibits an openness that I appreciate.
Look at it here
I played AD&D before the software. Does the software do anything that you can't do on paper with your imagination and the books?
This isn't bait a bait and switch. hell, slashdot does this too. First, all of the articles were user generated, now some of them are ads.
Nothing has been taken away that you can't have already. It's not like, someone wrote something, got everyone completely dependent on it without viable alternatives, and then said, "Give me more money, or you are screwed." BSA and operating systems for instance.
Or the RIAA,we own the product, we can do whatever we wish within our own personal confines. Turning my cd into mp3, ogg, making 30,000 copies, cracking any code and decorating my walls with them isn't illegal. It's the redistribution for no cost that is illegal.
Damned whiners.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
and occasionally my basic/expert books from '79. Makes me feel like a kid again.
What do you mean "have to"? Just continue to play with the version 3 ruleset; the books won't suddenly turn into dust just because there's a new version out.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
I'm probably stating the obvious here, but now would be a great time for someone to post links to 100% free gaming systems!
-Teckla
I'm still using 2.73, the last illegal version. Screw them. I've bought thousands of dollars worth of D&D books over the last 24 years that I've been playing the game. I still have my first edition books, I still have my pre-first edition stuff.
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Sure, the fee is a pain, but I would like to stress how good a product PCGen is. I play 3 sessions a week, and although I only use PCGen for one of them (The others are an insanely complicated multi-prestige-class-class-altering-equipment-usin g monk/cleric/thing and another is essentially a crane samurai under the Rokugan d20 rules), the rest of my party in all 3 (and the DM sometimes) use it for quick, easy character generation, because it's fast, it's easy to level up your character, you have a nice backup in case your sheet turns into a dew towel and let's face it, some players are either too new to do this without some assistance (whether PCGen or another player) or just really, really suck at simple math.
That said, I would really like PCGen to stop paying full attention to just wizards. Yes, it's D&D, d20 is the 3E system and D&D is a very important game. But I think this is a VERY good opportunity to help some excellent companies (or at least one) who are REALLY in bad shape, and have been for a long time. I'm refering, of course, to Alderac Entertainment Group, publishers of two excellent games (L5R CCG and RPG) who started after wizards and really never stood a chance in hell of unseating them, and have been sitting around getting financially beaten up because no one will give their product a second look. It would be really, really nice if PCGen would branch out and try to include a game like L5R to help a great company (who at the moment have to pay their writers something like 2 cents per word. Well, at least the one I know) and help those of us who play either Oriental Adventures or Rokugan d20 in a conventional or L5R setting. For an extra few bucks, I think that would be a good deal for everyone involved.
Once for the 3e books.
Once for the PCGen files to go with those rules.
Once for the new core books, each at $29.95, with the new rules coming out in six months. Dungeon and Dragons 3.5 as they are calling.
And again for the new PCGen files to go with the new books.
And the software is open source why can't you just create the database by yourself?
A useful open source "product" would be a data entry program designed to make the creation and editing of these databases easy.
Sure, it's more work, but you shouldn't have any copyright issues unless you distribute the data you entered.
Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
Aside from the high probability of downloading the files from elsewhere, what about giving the users the instructions on how to generate the datafiles given that they own the books? That way they would have paid for the IP already (by buying the books).
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
When my half-orc barbarian will kick your puny ranger ass!
This
I was introduced to AD&D about fifteen years ago and played/DM'ed heavily for a few years in college. What stuck, however, was mapping the game mechanics into whatever the programming language or technology I was learning. I think I've done something similar in Pascal, C, C++, VB, Java, data in XML, DOS, Windows, *nix, QT, and PocketPC platforms.
That said, my god how tunes change. I remember when TSR was trying to say they had a patent and/or copyright to the game mechanics and probability tables in alt.rec.adnd.utils (? been too long) The community slammed them hard, and much like slashdot's armchair lawyer'ing - the general consensus was they could get bent on the data charts. The copy for a fireball description was protected by copyright, but a method for calculating damage by rolling 1d6 for each level of the mage? No way! Well, with current one-click patent rulings, I'm sure it is...
If people play, they will buy the books. I've got one of the TSR 'Core Rules' CD - A character generator and all the core books in RTF and a few other formats. Even the cheapest of the bastards went off and purchased a PHB (or stole mine), rather printing the file and make a bootleg copy . I still prefer paper for gaming, but the RTF's were handy for coding.
The in-game helper software was not created or usable. Paper and dice diminished. I watched all the folks who had played AD&D get sucked in by Magic, then Everquest rather than buy the later 2nd Edition or 3rd Edition books. I'm sure this move will bolster homegrown efforts to embrace the OGL and D20 licenses and improve the product. The technical term for this is "Pissing in the wind"...
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
You have to? Is WoTC holding a gun to your head?
Most of the people I play with still use 2nd edition, don't think we'll be changing any time soon.
the books won't suddenly turn into dust just because there's a new version out.
Fortunately, DRM systems will close this gaping hole in the future. Thank God for Palladium and friends!
(and because there are morons, yes, morons who read Slashdot, "</sarcasm>". If you didn't realize that this message was sarcastic until you read this paragraph, I'm talking about you.)
Good thing I never overwrote rev 2.73 with anything more current. I've noticed that Rev 4.x f*&^s up all of the monsters that older Revs work with quite nicely. Actually, no matter *what* version you are using, there is still always something totally screwed up enough to warrant me sitting down and doing the characters by hand. Really the only two reasons for having PCGEN is that all of the information for Forgotten Realms and the Splat Books is *right there* and it is extremely quick and easy to spit out a bunch of monster and NPC stats for a game. Since Rev 4 eliminated all of the content *and* messed up the monster stats, it is worthless. I looked at later revisions, but stick with 2.73. Without that content, I consider all of the current versions to be a step backward. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the change in tag formatting for the data files was directly related to them making the older data files non-compatible solely to make money. Oh well - there are solutions - stick with older revision (like me), continue to do everything by hand, or make your own data files and tell the folks at PCGEN to go pound sand.
Actually, while I'm on a rant - doesn't it piss anyone else off that WOTC has done some underhanded things - the Monster Manual for example. They bragged about how many monsters there are in there. Yeah - if you subtract all of the variations (Large, Huge, Small, Tiny, Medium) of the same monster and subtract all of the templates, you've probably got maybe 50 monsters in the book. MM2 is no better. How about their "generosity" of giving away converted spells, monsters, etc. from 1st/2nd edition only if you also buy Dragon or Dungeon Magazine or an RPGA Polyhedron and Living Greyhawk Subcription. Their "new" Fiend Folio looks like another stinker.
I recently bought Tome of Horrors (by Sean? Green) and have been extremely happy with it - it is well worth the $30 for a book containing over 400 monsters (292 of them being conversions from 1st edition MM1, MM2, and FF). Sure it has templates - *AS AN APPENDIX* - not as a part of the main 400+ monsters.
I would recommend that everyone who plays 3rd edition try out some of the 3rd party d20 products as they are as good as, if not better than, the WOTC content. With the current trend WOTC is taking, it makes me want to grab my copy of "D&D Cyclopedia" (a compilation of all the boxed sets for Original D&D) off of my bookshelf and start playing that again - but my players are firmly entrenched in 3rd edition - heck - one of my players *only* wants to play 3rd edition D&D, and only with the "typical pseudo-Western European fantasy" type of scenarios (i.e. keep the campaign in Waterdeep and surroundings.) God forbid that I have them playing in Moonshae Isles (Celtic with Nordic influences) and plan on throwing them in Kara-Tur or Maztica...
for ( i=1,i7,i++) {
print 3*rand(6);
}
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
*ahem*
/. should understand my reasoning.
If you buy "the data" (which you didn't--you bought a copy of the data which includes the right to make reasonable and necessary copies for personal use), you can go ahead and put it in yourself, or pay someone else to do it for you--or pay the original company for a second copy of the data.
Or you can do what I do, and not use Wizards of the Coast material that's not OGL'd or in the SRD. Any gamer on
If you bought two copies of the Players Handbook, would it seem 'stingy' to be forced to pay twice?
PCGen is a nifty app, but all this stuff annoys me. I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.
The PCGen folks work out a deal with Wizards to so that they can license material that's not covered by the Open Gaming License, and you're complaining about it.
If you feel that strongly about not paying twice, no one is making you buy it. Additionally, you're totally free to create and distribute Open Gaming Content yourself. God forbid someone try and make a little money for their work.
I bought all the 3rd ed books already after all... it seems stingy to charge users twice.
Um, I think you're missing a point, Taco. With all the data files, many gamers can get away with not having the Player's Handbook at all. Character creation and updating is the most book-necessary part of the game.
I've got no problem with WotC on this front.
-Grant
My stupid web site
It's not the developers of PCGen that are making money off of this 56ker, Wizards of the Coast is charging them licensing fees.
The team that's making PCGen isn't making any money off of this.
Conspiracy theorists might argue WotC is doing this to keep PCGen from competing with its own proprietary equivelent, the name of which escapes me at the moment.
As things stand, for the price of a couple of pints, I'm going to be able to download datafiles for PCGen (which is a bloody fine piece of work in itself) that will allow me to bash out characters and monsters that
a) Can use all of the published features from the rules and addons
b) Stand a hope in hell of actually being numerically correct
Think people - when have we ever been able to do this before for the DnD world? Never.
For the people who are whinging about WotC releasing new editions to keep money coming in - if you don't want them, don't buy them. If you do, get 'yer hand in 'yer pocket and pay for them. And if I come across anyone ripping off the datafiles once they go on sale, they'll get a vorpal enema from me!
One happy DM!
Help children born unable to swallow - www.tofs.org.uk
Game names are trademarkable. Claiming that your game has anything to do with D&D/D20 will get you sued for trademark infringment. Sure, you can make a game based on the system, as long as it doesn't use any part of WotC's IP (class names are probably included here, as are any parts of the world, basically the whole Monster Manual, because while orcs and so forth are pretty much public domain, the WotC/TSR implementations are copyrighted, and most of the stuff in the MM is copyrighted in its own right).
The D20 Open Gaming License basically gives you the right to call something D20 and use D20 rules and some IP, as long as you don't re-pring or suppant other IP. It's basically a branding thing. Here, you can have some of our branding which is just about the best in the industry, and in exchange, you have to play nice with our rules.
In conclusion, yes you can work around the OGL and just go ahead and print some rules and stuff, but there's not much benefit to you since you might as well just go OGL, or if you need more licence it from Wizards, it'll save you tiptoeing through a legal minefield and maybe getting sued (even if you do a real good job of avoiding infringment, you could get sued anyway, and you might even lose, since you ripped of something they made, and judges, unlike RMS, do believe in intellectual property...)
People here are talking about how it's WotC's right to charge for their data, and about the "3.5th ed" of AD&D. But no one has actually brought up the reason why this is important: it's all happened before, and it didn't end well.
D&D used to be published by a company called TSR (originally Tactical Simulation Rules, then the acronym was dropped). While the company was under the control of Gary Gygax, all was good; but when Gygax left, he was replaced by typical business types. They decided that by publishing new books, they could make more money from their existing players; so, they published an "advanced" version, AD&D, which would live alongside D&D. Some time after that, they published a 2nd edition AD&D and discontinued both D&D and AD&D. The new editions were improvements, but people weren't happy with re-purchasing and re-learning the same things repeatedly.
Somewhere along the line, someone at TSR found out about the World Wide Web, and they weren't happy with what they found: TSR's copyrighted material, even complete texts, on personal web pages. They decided to crack down, but they came for not only infringing sites, but also legitimate fan sites. They made a public statement explaining what fan sites could and couldn't use. They made two grave mistakes; first, they tried to claim ownership over the term "hit points", by then already used universally in nearly every RPG around, and proposed a lousy substitute. Second, they said that fan sites could use monsters which come from mythology (their example: a Hydra), but not ones which are creations of TSR (Drow elves). Problem was, an edition of Webster's Unabridged Dictionary published several years before D&D had an entry under "drow", which described TSR's drow elves perfectly.
At the same time, TSR was milking the market for all it was worth. They published "2.5th Ed." of AD&D, which was 2nd Ed. in a slightly different presentation (more pictures), and they published dozens and dozens of unnecessary, low-quality, repetitive and inconsistent rulebooks. In short, they made a mess of 2nd edition AD&D, and earned themselves a dismal reputation as "T$R". The backlash killed them, and TSR was bought out by Wizards of the Coast.
Third edition was a symbolic fresh start; it discarded the mess of rulebooks created in 2nd edition, simplified things, and used the D20 license to show that, unlike TSR, WotC was committed to openness. Does a 3.5th edition and stopping one copyright infringement mean that WotC is reverting into TSR? Of course not; but it's a step in that direction, and could become the start of something more.
According to Wizards of the Coast, all of the modifications made from 3.0 to 3.5 will be released, free of charge, as part of the Standard Reference Document. You can use those as a template for "upgrading" your campaign, if you want.
Me? I'm sticking with my 3.0 books, and I'll borrow from what I like in 3.5, but I'm not shelling out the money. Quit whining! Sheesh, it's like you think you deserve free copies of the new books, or something...
InThane
we didn't need any fancy computer to whip up characters. Just 3d6, a pencil and paper. Most of the iterations since have just been sales-driven product releases.
With all due respect to the PcGen people, I could never understand the point of a "character generator". You download and install an app so that you can shave a couple of seconds off of character generation? What's the *point*? If anything, you lose part of the gaming experience.
I mean, how often do you need to generate a freaking character?
May we never see th
Ook! (that's monkey for greetings) I see that everyone is having fun bashing away happily at WotC, CMP, and things in general. I just thought I'd stop in and make a target, er, post myself here. ;)
Couple things a lot of you seem to be missing... mostly missing are additional facts. So, let me point you to were you can read what's what... then feel free to flame/complain/moan/groan/congradulate/pat on back/yell/scream/holler away. ;)
1st, the main announcement about things is located on our main page at http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com
That give an overview of things... more specifics are here:
http://www.codemonkeypublishing.com/modules.php?op =modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=12 9
okay.. that should give you all the fuel you need to pick your favorite adjective to use! ready, set, flame! ;p
*note - I am _VERY_ tongue in cheek and sarcastic, not with intent to annoy anyone (usully. ;p) but for simple humors sake.
Ask questions, they're more than welcome, please refrain from personal flames though, that's not needed and unwelcome.
I see Mynex has already posted on this issue, but I'm goign to psot some extra info that people seemt o be unaware of in regards to various topics brought up.
* When 3.5 comes out, Wizards will release all the changes as a PDF file (liek they currently do with the Errata and FAQ). It will be a free download form the Wizards website, so you will not have to pay for the changes if you don't want to.
* PcGen ahs always allowed users to enter their own datafiles - especially easier now with allt he list editors in the latest releases. Thus, you don't have to buy the Wizards IP if you own the books, you can just enter the information yourself. The supporting Documentation inside PCGen is very helpful in this regard.
* The stuff Code Monkey Publishing will be charging for will only be for the Wizards IP. This means that things left out fot he SRD will be put back in (Mordenkeinen's, Tasha's, Illithid/MindFlayer, etc etc). Not only that, but you'll get full descriptions of skills, spells, feats, etc. Or you could do your own work and flesh out the SRD files that come with PCGen using the list editors.
* Code Monkey Publishing has axcquired the rights to fix and support Wizard's own Character Generator E-Tools, which, by many reports, is severely broken and has not been fixed sice it was released.
* Be aware that E-Tools only runs on Windows (as far as I know, unless you use a Windows Emulator on othe rplatforms), whislt PCGen, running in Java, runs on many platforms. So to my mind, this is a bonus, not hindrance to PCGen.
Well, that's all I have to say.
Ignore me, flame me, or whatever, but these are the facts, as they stand.
Kenosti.
Look, I'm all for Open Source, GPL, and all that smooth and creamy stuff, but the bottom line here is that the d20 system is just old news. I mean, if Cobol and CPM were GPL'd, would we all rush out to use them? There are much
better ways to do a RPG than d20, ways that make the game simpler, more intuitive, and more realistic. Take, for example, the IGS system. These guys are a tiny company that no-one has heard of, but they have written a game system that beats d20 hands down, is fun and fast to play, and is as universal as GURPS without being as broken at the extremes. Check it out at http://www.igsgames.com/ - I dare you.
Never generalize
For players, PCGen isn't as useful as a character generator as it is a character maintenance program. Leveling up in 3E can be a daunting task, unlike 2E, which I remember to be quite a bit easier.
For DMs, it can be useful as a character generator for NPCs that you want fully fleshed out, with more data than just a stat-block would include.
The Spoon
Updated 6/28/2011