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Ogg Vorbis Portables On The Way
Emmettfish writes "According to this release on Xiph.org, it looks like the Neuros player will support Linux users, and also give them the ability to play back Vorbis files on the move, starting in late May. Go Ogg! Remember, donating a few bucks to Xiph may not make the world a better place, but it'll definitely help it
sound a lot better." For those of us craving a portable that plays from cheap CD-Rs rather than flash media or a hard drive, Emmett says by email that an agreement for development of firmware for a CD-based Ogg player is in the works, too.
Well this is obviously good for ogg, but even if this does gain some momentum a big name portable mp3 player manufacturer will simply put it in their player and way underprice these guys.
I am not saying it isn't a good idea at all, but don't you think they could get shut out of business really quick?
Would we have to call it joggvorbising then?
$250 for the 128 meg, $400 for the 20GB.
In other words, more than my main desktop computer cost.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
make sure the players support upgradeable firmware for future codec upgrades and I'm set - tho the specification does claim that all future Ogg Vorbis files will be decodable by the current decoder, it may miss out on improvements and enhancements.
The CD-based player is a good idea for those of us with massive disc collections but just cannot be bothered to transfer the songs - much easier with a change of disc.
Speaking of which - one of Ogg Vorbis' strongest selling points is bitrate peeling - you can "peel" a 192 kbps file to 128 kbps and the resulting file will sound just as good as if it were encoded directly off the original CD/wave file.
But there is no tool yet. When can we expect to see one?
Thanks for all the great work.
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
Does it play Ogg? Oh! it does. I'm going back to sleep.
"Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them."
Nice, but I already have a portable Ogg Vorbis player: tkcPlayer
I find the fact that Ogg Vorbis is an open format more important than the small gain in audio quality.
-- Cheers!
I've got the IRiver MP3 CD player and it's nice but it would be way nicer with OGG support. They've got upgradeable firmware and they mention OGG support in their docs... but it never comes thru!
idealord music
the MyFi feature of Neuros is very fun, useful and innovative!
MyFi allows you to broadcast the music on your Neuros through any FM radio. Like the one in your car. Or your kitchen. Or your coworker's boombox. MyFi automatically scans the FM radio dial for an available frequency and broadcasts using all digital stereo encoding, just like broadcast towers used by professional radio stations.
I don't think RIAA will like this, but this feature is really a killer-app amha.
An MP3 file at 32 kbit/second sounds muffled - high frequencies largely removed - while an Ogg at 23 kbit/second (16 kbit nominal) has a much better tonal balance. The Ogg stream is not pristine quality, but much better than the MP3.
If you're interested in packing many hours of low bitrate material, Ogg is the way to go.
I'm in a Unix state of mind.
I have my doubts about this unit. In my opinion, the days of the flash-based MP3 (ogg, etc.) players are numbered for one simple reason: they don't hold enough music. Even if it's relatively simple to sync the device with the computer, it's still a pain to have to do that every time you want to listen to new music. I own the 15GB Archos Jukebox Recorder, which I got on sale for $150 (including rebate) a couple of months ago. I was able to put all of the songs I'd downloaded from my desktop and laptop - about 10GB worth of music - on it, and a bunch of my CDs as well. Now I don't have to take a bunch of CDs around with me, as the player can hook up to my home stereo, car stereo (it's a newer stereo that has an MP3 port and I use a cable to connect the player to the port - with the Neuros you could broadcast over the stereo's FM frequency), and also at work (I hook my computer's speakers up to the player). For me, it's a much better option than the flash-based players because I can fit so much more music on it. My only complaint is that there is so much music on it that it is sometimes hard to navigate around the HD to find exactly what you're looking for, especially if you don't take the time to really organize your music by folder, track number, etc., before you upload it to your player. I have heard that the user interface for the iPod solves some of these problems, so I am hoping that Archos comes out with a software fix soon. Anyway, the bottom line is that I would go with the 20GB option here - I guess my only concern about that in this instance is that the 20GB "backpack" looks huge, and might add a lot of weight to the unit and make it bulky. The Archos I have is a little heavier than I would prefer, but really not that bad. I am still able to jog with it, which is key. I carry it in my left arm now and for the first time in years, my left arm is the same size as my right arm. Just kidding.
You can confirm this cost by hitting the CompUSA preorder site (ship date of tomorrow, feb. 25th).
http://www.compusa.com/promos/neuros/default.asp
Fairly expensive. But I do like the built-in FM transmitter. Also, I would recommend buying the 128MB unit, as the 20GB HDD will be available as a "backpack" that makes the 128 exactly the same (size, shape, capacity) as the 20GB unit. However, the 20GB unit can't be "downgraded" to a smaller, more pocketable 128.
I've been researching various portable MP3 players for some time, meanwhile budgeting some cash that I could use to buy one. I had my mind set on a iPod for a while because the design looked sleek and elegant, stored gigs of music, and reportedly got good life out of its batteries.
.ogg format, I decided to hold off until something actually played .ogg's.
.ogg is a viable format. Hopefully more players will come along.
My alternative to an iPod would have been the player from Archos, which was AFAIK the second portable music player that stored giga-, not mega- bytes.
Since the investment in one of these players is fairly substantial (300-400 USD), and as of late I have more and more music files in
This is probably the music player that I've been waiting for. A hard drive so I can store thousands of songs (as opposed to whatever I can squeeze into 32 or 64 megs), and some 'smart' features such as recording and being able to broadcast to a radio.
I'm sure there are other people out there like me that have been waiting for this kind of player to come along, so I for one am ready to plunck down the cash and buy one, and show the industry that
I wish Neuros the best of luck with their new product, and of course, kudos go out to the Xiph.org team for all of their hard work.
-Jason Jones
There's one benefit of Ogg that many people miss... compaines can use it in their products, whithout paying a royalty, and without worrying about the libraries changing (since they can distribute the libraries). For applications other than music players (such as games) that play sound, it's perfect. Who wants to use a system supplied mp3 library that may or may not work with your application 5 revisions down the road?
What this means for me is that I can play my oggs in my friend's car without the aid of any doohickey cable or any other crap like that. All he needs is an FM receiver. A truly useful [and I do not use the word lightly here] innovation. Wonder why no one ever thought of it before...
I really wouldn't worry about the RIAA here - more likely is the FCC who dictates frequency spectrum allocation, but the transmitting range should be short enough to satisfy their requirements.
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
If you're using Ogg Vorbis for recording lectures, I suggest you switch to Speex. From the website:
The Speex project aims to build a patent-free, Open Source/Free Software voice codec. Unlike other codecs like MP3 and Ogg Vorbis, Speex is designed to compress voice at bitrates in the 2-45kbps range. Possible applications include VoIP, internet audio streaming, archiving of speech data (e.g. voice mail), and audio books. In some sense, it is meant to be complementary to the Ogg Vorbis codec.
Use ISO 8601 dates [YYYY-MM-DD]
The 128MB Neuros player can be upgraded via a backpack to be exactly the same as the 20GB unit. Total price for the 128MB player and the 20GB backpack is only $430, just $30 more than the 20GB unit. The 20GB version is much larger and heavier, and cannot be "downgraded" to be the same as the 128MB unit. By going with the 128MB unit and a backpack, you can have a small, light, solid-state player for the gym (or whatever) and a 20GB backpack to hold all of your music, too. With the 20GB backpack on, it is *identical* to the 20GB unit. The 128MB piece is not available as a backpack, though.
If you jog with it, this is definitely the route to go. Tiny player for jogging, plug in the backpack for huge capacity.
FYI, Frontier Labs expects to have ogg support ready for their Nex II player in Q2 2003.
This is a Good Thing for sure, but keep in mind that the important thing is to help the average Joe see the benefits of Ogg. Sending your mom the CD you ripped in ogg format is way more useful than preaching benefits of ogg on slashdot.
The FCC allows unlicensed low-power FM broadcasts without a license. This is how drive-in movie theaters usually work--you listen using your car's sound system. I'm sure someone here can post the exact limits the FCC imposes on such broadcasts, but they're certainly much more generous than this device would require.
I have built the plugin for the Qtopia media player on the Sharp Zaurus SL5500 myself a few weeks ago. You can also find someone else's build as an IPKG on http://www.killefiz.de/.
And the Zaurus could accomodate a CF harddisk (1gig)... I'm not saying that it would run off the battery for long tho.
Also, I heard that the integer only decoder (Tremor) used less power than the built-in MP3 one, so battery life as affected by that is supposed to be longer (10 percent I read someplace).
I love my Rio SP250. I have a fairly large CD collection, and I love being able to just switch CD's and have a different portion of my collection.
.ogg files off of CD (vs. my RIO which plays mp3 off of CD)?
But my question is, why would I want to make a lateral move to something that plays
What I would really like to see is a DVD +/- R solution. Then I could have 4.7GB vs. 700MB of music ready to go.
Am I just dreaming, or is there a market for this besides me?
I thought FLAC was a lossless format so one could record and edit sound files, not for listening
Yup. You can certainly listen to it though.
Do audiophiles really notice the difference between a high quality ogg/mp3 and FLAC?
Not with a portable player and earbuds, they don't.
Is the FLAC file smaller?
No. It's much larger. At the bitrates I usually feel comfortable with, FLAC tends to be over five times as large as ogg. FLAC on this player would be more a gimmick than a useful feature.
May we never see th
FLAC is indeed lossless, and is also indeed large. Yes, audiophiles do insist that all lossy compression is unbearable. Even if they couldn't tell the difference, they would still make the claims I'm sure. Else how could they call themselves audiophiles?
As for myself, I think Vorbis acheives the best quality to size ratio. If there are artifiacts, they aren't as irritating as mp3 artifiacts, since I notice mp3 artifacts and don't Vorbis (until you get past 128 kbps, at which point I can't tell anything about an mp3. For listening on mediocre at best headphones in public with noise around me, I would say a 64 kbps vorbis would be good enough, not so about mp3.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
It has a *very* limited range. Like you, and maybe the car next to you, if you both have your windows open and the other driver has a good antenna. Hell of a lot cleaner than a tape adapter, and easier than pulling your stereo out to add an RF modulator so that you can plug the thing directly in.
I was thinking - this is pretty cool. Then I saw it connects to your computer via usb 1.1. Who in their right mind would develop a new product with a 20GB harddrive and stick a measly USB 1.1 connection on it? There's no way that's going to work without frustrating every user
This device looks really nice: switchable piggyback storage, FM transmittery thing, not too heavy, not too bulky, 20Gb, etc. etc. Of course ogg support is a big plus too. It could be the iPod competition we've all been waiting for! But ...
USB 1.1?! What were they thinking? How could they get so close and still drop the bundle?! Transfering a CD's worth of music onto the device would take well over a minute at any decent quality. Transferring a collection onto the drive would take hours. If there were no alternatives, then sure, it's certainly not too bad. But with a disk attached to the device, there's no good reason why transfers couldn't be ten times as fast, if only they used USB2 or firewire.
As a portable harddrive, USB1.1 speeds are apalling.
Would putting firewire or USB2 on really have been so hard? As it stands, the player seems to be in the 'so close but' category.
According to this site: http://www.mixstix.com/ they already have ogg playback.
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
It should be pointed out that the notion that Ogg Vorbis is provides better quality audio is not universally accepted. Audio quality is incredibly difficult to quantify as it is subjective. Even if you ignore all the different variables (CBR vs VBR, quality of audio equipment, etc.) one person may make very different judgements from another (especially with Vorbis and Mp3 being so close).
And most tech reviews I have read seem to indicate that the different compression formats (Vorbis, Mp3 and WMA) all have different strengths when it comes to particular types of music.
YAMPP MP3 players can be made for the parts for about 80 dollars... perhaps less if you can find things on clearance. It is nowhere near $12, however.
Likewise, many MP3 players are significantly lower than 150 dollars. Poking around on Shopping.yahoo.com, you can find the the Ampigo3 for 50, the Samsung YEPP for 50, the JamP3 for 40, the Audiovox MP-1000 for 40, and the D-Link DMP-100 for 35 dollars. Rio PMP 300's are still available on ebay for $50 or less. They're all about the same quality as the "latest" MP3 players from sonicblue, and will compare favorably to that $20 CD walkman for high-impact activities like treadmill jogging, cycling, etc.
If you look hard, you can find 20GB Archos Jukeboxes for $150.
If you want an MP3 player, now is a great time. Actually, last year was a great time. Now isn't that bad though. Do some legwork and start saving those batteries.
This Sig is a mnemonic device designed to allow you to recognize this author in the future.
The Palm Tungsten T works great as an MP3 and Ogg player with either of the shareware programs Aeroplayer or Pocket Tunes installed. Aeroplayer is free for ogg use, but not free for MP3. Pocket Tunes is not free for either. In any case both are pretty cheap. The TT uses standard MMC and SD cards. Not to mention that the Tungsten T is an excellent Palm OS 5 PDA.
--- What?
SonicBlue's Pearl plays Ogg. It was demoed at CES this year, so it should be on the streets by this fall. A SonicBlue employee reported on RioWorld that it supports Ogg. It also has an ethernet base, which is unusual and forward thinking.
There's also a german firm, Pontis, coming out with an ogg capable player. (Note: .ogg support is in the works) :) .ogg firmware for the Diva MP3 player (a sexy, 36 g device :)
It works with CompactFlash, Secure Digital and Multimedia Card memcards (and acts also as an USB card reader/storage device). It lacks the ability to record and the radio, but I for me these are not necessary. Also, it can be used as a handheld game console, although so far it seems there are two games for it
I have seen it for 95 Euros, so it is not that expensive. The only thing keeping me back from buyin it is its size and weight (nearly 100g - though that's half what Neuros weighs) - I want to see an
(Yes, I love the idea of memcard based players: I have a digital camera with CF cards so I don't want to spend on built-in memory (that can not be expanded) and CDs are too big and require lots of power to operate so there will never be really small and low-powered CD-based players)
Real life is overrated.
As a long time follower of the different audio encoding technologies, I have to agree with you on your point that the quality of the different formats seems to be quite subjective, but personally, I'm one of the many (few?) whose ears are overwhelmingly in favor of Ogg.
I can't STAND WMA at all... it has a high end ringing screech at pretty much any bitrate, while at the same time, some people swear by WMA. WMA also boosts the volume of the encoded material to give the listener the impression that it's better quality, which is bad form, IMO.
MP3 is pretty impressive nowadays, with all of the work that has gone into LAME... Even 128kbit VBR is passable. But as I said, to my ears at least, they all bow before Ogg. That same passable quality you get at 128kbit with LAME you get at 96kbit with Ogg. And the artifacts are also much less offensive to my ears, but again, that is a matter of opinion.
Anyway, I hear too much completely uninformed Ogg bashing, and I wish everyone would do some objective testing of their own. Go read up on blind ABX testing, and do some yourself. If Ogg isn't the one you think sounds best, that's fine, but just don't say it's crap without giving it a shot!
Already got my own. Remember that Sharp Zaurus that came out a year or two ago? It makes an excellent ogg player. And it only cost me around $100 to upgrade the ram enough to store several hours of music. The advantage to using the Zaurus to these other devices is you can have your network and computers manage your music collection for you through ssh and rsync over an 802.11 net. Show me a $100 ogg player that can do it right now and you might get yourself a customer, if I didn't already have one.
I emailed frontierlabs and they said the firmware for ogg would be added to their website soon for the nexII (model). It'll take CF and IBM microdrives for about $115 USD.
There is no such thing as 'CD-quality' when dealing with a lossy encoder like mp3 or Ogg Vorbis. True CD quality can only be attained with a lossless encoder, like FLAC or Shorten.
If you think Ogg Vorbis sounds better than mp3 at comparable bitrate or lower, then it's safe to say that you consider Ogg Vorbis representative of "better audio," or better reproduction of sound. If you do find this to be true, then you're in good company; Large amounts of double-blind testing agrees with you.
Bitrate is never irrelevant. Bitrate multiplied by time equals size, and anyone who has ever filled a hard drive could probably tell you about how some things can look very large indeed from far away, but hit their limit of usefulness in a curiously small amount of time.
Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation
Anyone care to compute out how long it would take to actually fill that 20GB hard drive that USB 1 speed?
Yes, this is all true. We've got special plans to have Ogg Vorbis files Shock-Enabled[tm]; If you're listening to an Ogg Vorbis file and you think about copying it for a friend, a special patented algorithm will combine the electrical synapses in your brain and route the power directly to your spinal column, killing you instantly.
It's certainly a cost-savings over the all-weather troops that we've been using for the past few years.
Remember to keep your tinfoil hat on tight. :)
Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation
"It will never come out."
"It will never be as good as mp3."
"It will never be better than mp3."
"No one will use it but Linux folks."
"Now that you've lost funding, you'll never survive."
"You'll be shut down by Thomson/Fraunhofer."
"No hardware company will ever be interested in it."
Xiph.org Foundation - Proving assholes wrong since 1993.
Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation
If the patent owners on the toothpaste dispenser started charging at $50 royalty, obviously you would switch brands. If Thomson Conumer Electronics or MSFT started demanding outrageous royalties for MP3/WMA, you would switch to OGG, yes? Wait, your entire music collection is encoded in WMA ... you're out of luck until you re-encode. Maybe at the time this happens, you are running MSFT's super DRM operating system with palladium and you can't even transcode your WMA/MP3 to ogg because you don't want to pay to access them. We shouldn't just pay a small fee and settle for MP3/WMA because unlike the toothpaste, you entire history of useage of the product is what they use to force you to stay with it. Re-encoding an entire music selection is not easy work.
" There is a loose end of non-commercial encoders, decoders and streams. But so far, mp3 consortium is just letting them exist and going after commercial licenses (that's as far as I know, any corrections?). Another good solution would be for them to ask end users go to some website and pay $5 for the right to use any MP3 software of their choice."
Thompson shut down BladeENC which was an open source encoder with patent litigaton. Fraunhofer's original purpose for creating MP3 was clearly stated: They want to make money from patent royalties on streaming audio. That's why the original FHG encoder was so bad above 128 kbit/s. It was designed for low bitrate streaming -- most people did not have broadband back then and Napster did not exist. In the long run, they will not tolerate companies or individuals who make free products to compete with paid ones. They, like any commercial entity, are out to make money!
" Yes, mp3 consortium could start going after LAME and WinAmp, harassing P2P users and otherwise turn evil. And that's a good thing that OGG and WMA are around to keep them reasonable. But they didn't turn evil yet and in the worst case I'll lose a couple of hundred bucks then buying new devices."
Of course OGG is around to keep Thompson reasonable. Although Thompson has said that they think there's patent infringing code within OGG Vorbis. (You'd think they would know considering that it's open source.) As to losing a couple of hundred dollars on new devices, you're saying that you would PAY to get into a world where you use products where a company can just instantly decide that you have to pay additional fees to access your music collection, and you're happy with that?
" As for quality, interoperability is far more important. If you make an 128Khz, CBR MP3, you can give it to about anyone and be sure they'll be able to play it. With OGG or WMA, a Mac user will be at least forced to do some painful things to hear the sound. And with portable players all bets are off. Even Linux-based Zaurus doesn't come with OGG support by default."
This is what the people who stand to make a lot of money from you on patented audio formats WANT you to say and think. Apathy in changing formats will just let them snare you that much more easily. It is just like with banks -- I work in the banking industry and I know that it is only apathy that keeps most people banking with their bank. If they woke up and looked at their situation, they would probably be able to find a better deal where they get the same services at much less cost with higher interest rates for their savings.
" Besides, mp3pro is not bad if you want quality at low bandwidth and still works with regular MP3 players in a pinch. Why not give it a try if you are not worried about interoperability?"
Once you start going with mp3pro, you run into the same problems with mp3. The cycle of exploitation by patents starts again.
If you were trying to write FUD, I hope you now realise that you need more practice because you are a poor FUD-spreader. If you honestly believed what you said, I hope you have learned something by reading this.
Congratulations, you win the box of Q-Tips.
Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.org Foundation