Linux in High School Labs

lexbaby writes "The Salt Lake Tribune has a story about how Logan High School (Logan, Utah) is using Linux in their student programming lab. The main use is for robotics. There is the old discussion about if Linux is truly cheaper to operate in the long run. Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?" I hope some of the students involved post pictures of the robots they're building in class.

Comments

Its about time

[CONTROL_ALT_F4]

Linux will have a much better corporate future if tomorrows business execs actually learn how to use it.

It also warms my heart to see fewer tax payer dollars going into Microsoft's pocket.

Re:Its about time

[KJE]

I don't know if you can draw that parallel between Linux and Apple, they're two different entities. As a company Apple might have tried to get their computers into primary and high schools, but what are kids doing with computers at that age? Mostly drawing pictures, writing essays, making posters, and maybe a little bit of programming. Extend those uses out a couple of years, and you see that Apple computer is competitive in the desktop publishing and artwork worlds. This is not to say that Apple didn't shit the bed in terms of marketing itself (and introducing marketable items) in the late 80's and early 90's. But for you to say that it's nonsense that linux wont be better off if today's highschool kids are using it, just because of Apple's faults, is a bit off.

Re:Its about time

[Anonymous Coward]

that was a typo, let me re-write and elaborate:

yeah, cause Apple's machine were slow fucking turd-buckets. I had to use those damn pieces of trash in school. The TRS-80's were more fun. Apple's pointy-clicky nightmare that you had to wait 5 minutes just to load up a damn word processor, scared many of us the hell away from those inferior machines. They did more harm than good.

You throw Linux in a robotics lab, chances are they will get into it. However, you throw Linux at some white-trash spawned half-brained twits that are filing through our public education system, and they will be like "what the fuck is this?" and avoid computers altogether.

#!/

Re:Its about time

[Pieroxy]

Linux will have a much better corporate future if tomorrows business execs actually learn how to use it.

Nonsense. They just barely know how to use windows, and please don't tell me that Linux is as easy to use as windows (for someone that doesn't have a background in CS at least).

The factor that makes executives buy or deploy a certain OS is certainly not its usability! I can tell you they don't care about that *at all*.

Re:Its about time

[WatertonMan]

The problem is that if you want business people to use your computers then you need to get business departments in universities using it. Getting kids in even high school using your computer is rather pointless. They aren't really learning much beyond generics. At best you might inspired some hackers, but Apple intentionally never went after that market. That and the dominance of Linux in the CS and Engineering departments is what enabled Linux to get into the back office at a lot of businesses.

So Apple had the right idea. They just aimed it at the wrong audience. I'm not convinced that the lower education market is that useful. The margins are low and you are dealing with a market that doesn't count that much. At best you might get some kids to convince their parents to buy the trendy computer.

Now if Apple can get OSX into more departments in colleges, then I'd start to think they are accomplishing something. With effectively doing everything Linux can do and more, that is very doable. The problem is the hardware. So, as with everyone else, we're all crossing fingers for the 970.

Debian

[kyoko21]

Debian runs on just about every configuration for x86 and has a good support for drivers, it is definitely cheaper in the longrun if you have a lot of older machines. Though that does assume that the individuals setting up Debian know what they are doing. If they don't, they certainly will run into a thick brick wall since Debian has a learning curve that shoots up like there is no tomorrow.

More experiments before going with Linux...

[$$$$$exyGal]

First:

"Microsoft had us do an audit last year that took two weeks out of my schedule," Rugg said. "That's two week's work of taxpayers' money to satisfy Microsoft."

Then:

Weeks said more experiments will have to be done before Linux could be considered for schoolwide use.

Too bad they didn't do such rigorous "experiments" before they decided to go with Microsoft. If they had, then the Microsoft audit wouldn't have been such a surprise.

--sex

Yes yes yes

[nocomment]

This question comes up all the time. Is Linux a viable solution to use for $_?

The answer is always yes. It's a viable alternative for database servers, for number crunching, for scanning the skies for aliens, to calculating water flow, and yes for high school programming labs. IN fact definatelly for high school programming labs. I think anyone who start programming on any *nix machine, will have a better understanding of how to prgram on windoze if they need to anyway.

Re:Yes yes yes

[nocomment]

Well that's a bit different. Compare ANSII C to sign language. Anyone who uses sign language will understand anyone else who uses sign language.
I think if someone learns the correct style in order to write things will be better off in the long run. Even if/especially if they are a windoze programmer (God keep their souls).
Windows is by nature very sloppy, uses some funkdified junk. Look at any SMTP server log to see the munged helo/ehlo traffic a M$ client sends. Think if someone with a unix background, who actually reads RFC's and understands how the traffic is _supposed_ to look would have gotten that right...yet it's remained broken for years.

just an example of many many things that are a bit off-kilter over there.

Re:Yes yes yes

[aridhol]

Think if someone with a unix background, who actually reads RFC's

Why do you think that only Unix people read RFCs? They're out there for public consumption. I know Unix programmers who don't read them, and I know Windows programmers who do. One has nothing to do with the other.

Re:Yes yes yes

[zcat_NZ]

Yeah.. I think that anyone who has learned Japanese will have a better understanding of how to speak French, anyway.

And you'd be right.

Learning a second language is very hard. Learning a third or fourth language is MUCH easier. If you've already learned Japanese, you'll be able to pick up French relatively easily.

Re:Yes yes yes

[Cyno]

Which is why rebooting is a perfectly acceptable solution to fix most windows problems. That sort of mentality is not tolerated in the *nix world. We're serious about quality.

Linux is cheaper, but could always be better

[Space Coyote]

I see a problem with the corporate linux vendors being too dependent on selling support. Would that make them hesitant to develop a turnkey network distribution that could be set up to keep a school humming with minimal effort?

It will probably take a specialized, targeted distro to really break the Microsoft monopoly in schools.

The way you used to be able to set up a simple AppleTalk network should be the goal for a modern classroom OS.

Absolutely

[chunkwhite86]

The hundreds of thousands (millions?) of dollars that public schools pay to license MS software could be put to better use. Linux can enable this.

Then there are the benefits of training tomorrow's tech workers in an open software environment...

why dont schools go to linux?

[adamruck]

with all of the budget cuts, why wouldn't system administrators for school districts not be intrested in putting linux on computer networks?

Now obviously there are some compatability issues(microsoft office, etc). But in my area.. a grand total of zero schools go to the alternative route of using linux..

Yes of course

[kasperd]

Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?

Yes of course it is. Some people says students should be tought to use the software being used in the "real life". Why? If the students learn to acomplish the same task with cheaper software, how could that be bad?

But much rather than sticking with one choice of software, I'd see students trying a few different systems, so they can learn what are the differences and similarities between them, and they can learn how to learn using a new system, and they can make up their own minds about what they like and dislike. Because you cannot teach them how to use the software they are going to find themselves with in a few years, but you can theach them how to learn.

So let them try Linux, Unix, Windows, BSD, OSX, and let them find the best for each task.

Re:Yes of course

[phoenix_rizzen]

This is one of the major issues we are facing with implementing Unix/OSS in high schools. All the teachers are of the mindset "We have to teach MS Office, it's what's used in the business world." And that really irritates me.

Do we teach people how to use a single piece of software (ie. Word), or do we teach people concepts, skills, and abilities so that they can learn to use any piece of software in a very short period of time? Do we teach them where MS decides the "Create Table" menu item should be, or do we teach them how to make nice looking tables and charts, regardless of what software they use?

We should be doing the latter. We should be teaching people to teach themselves, to become learners, self-sufficient. We should not be teaching people how to memorise useless crud like where the "Bold" button is in Word, nor should we be teaching them how to use a single application. If they want to learn a specific application in-depth, then they should take courses designed specifically for that. School is about learning how to learn, not about learning how app X works.

Linux is more than cost savings.

[d00dman]

People should quit spending so much time talking about how low cost Linux is to use. If thats all that mattered, people whould be using it exclusively, wouldnt they? especially in schools where money is always tight. Its this type of news which is holding the Linux and other free UNIX vairants back by making them look "cheap". There are too many people who believe you get what you pay for. What really matters is how a platform can make your life easier.

Re:Linux is more than cost savings.

[kfg]

There will always be people willing and able to pay $500 for a garden spade.

Since this is the case there will always be people willing to make a good living by selling it to them.

The failure is in the perception of the people, not the $20 spade.

Cost *is* a valid feature to consider. People educated in the idea of *value* can inherently make better choices for themselves and for whomever they are responsible for/to.

Where do we educate people?

AHA!

KFG

Re:Linux is more than cost savings.

[Anonymous Coward]

This poster is very observant of some of the problems with Linux in education advocacy. We are trying to push something based just on price. While I am happy with a weekend of trying to get something to work on my home Linux box, schools need something that doesn't require forever to setup.

There are however some mature projects available for schools to use and these projects are really exciting because they provide school IT staff a very appealing alternative. K12LTSP is a good example of a very mature Linux in education project. Paul Nelson implemented a K12LTSP setup in the high school he works at, he says in his case study that "It's interesting to note that it took less than 3 hours to have all 4 LTSP terminal servers up and running and the better part of 3 days to get the W2K terminal server installed with software and a seemingly endless series of updates." In certain environments Linux is the best solution. We need to advocate that kind of solution and give it to people if they feel that another solution is better for there particular environment, it might just be.

-Jonathan Hughes
Linux In Education Portal
http://linuxineducation.org

# of managed Computers...

[dubious21]

The article states 45 for the Linux admin and 10 for the Windows admin. I mean come on...I manage 45 Windows nodes now and know several people who manage 100+ nodes. I am no windows zealot (we have BSD file servers) but sheesh if your paying your admin $45k+ a year (again from the article) he/she should be able to manage more than 10 nodes.

Re:YES!!!

[snack-a-lot]

How is this relevant? The article said nothing about them using the computers as thin clients.

Is Linux a viable alternative to Microsoft?

[pongo000]

I'm a teacher in a 50,000+ student school district. The district is seriously considering tossing off Microsoft's yoke, dumping both Microsoft and Novell, and setting up an all-Linux network. Microsoft has been trying to extort more and more from the district (a few months ago, one of the reps was simply asked to leave the Tech Center), and school districts in Texas are all facing reduced state funding next year.

So yes, Linux is being considered. But it's a slow road. For example, I'm working with the district to set up Linux servers for use as internal web servers in the high school computer labs. An incredible amount of emphasis is focused on security, since all grading is now on-line as well. As you can imagine, high schools have their fair share of script kiddies just wetting their pants over the opportunity to hack a new box on the network. We will be monitoring all hits on the boxes to try and profile what kind of attacks occur so we can keep the boxes as secure as possible. Whether or not the district decides to pursue Linux on the desktop depends upon how secure we can keep the lowly intranet servers.

My suggestion to anyone who is thinking about trying to convince school administrators to go open-source is to start small. Don't propose retrofitting the entire district in a summer--this simply doesn't fly, and makes you look like a zealot with an agenda. Offer to set up and administer a few Linux boxes, and go along with the security program. If they don't want qmail or sendmail running, fine -- there's time later to broach the subject.

As it is, news has quickly spread through our district's 7 high schools that we are getting our own server. Now they want one too. So I've been given the mandate to start setting them up for all the high schools. All because I pitched the idea of one lowly server for a computer science class I'm teaching.

Re:Lucky people

[MattCohn.com]

due to Win2K's crappy manageability

I belive what you ment to say was due to the incompatance of the network administrator or the crappy hardware you are using.

Where's the cost of Linux?

[webster]

If students are doing the system and network administration, then I don't see how Linux could possibly not be less expensive than any proprietary OS. There's little or no up-front cost, and no ongoing software maintenance cost. Even if there were penalties in the amount of time it took to do things using Linux (a doubtful proposition, in any case), that extra time would be used by the students learning very valuable lessons about computers.

If students are not the admins, why not?

A Viable Solution

[DaytonCIM]

Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?

Of course it is: it's free. The only "real" cost that a school district incurs by using Linux is either 1) hiring a Linux educated instructor or 2) training a current instructor. Both options are much less expensive than the Microsoft alternative.

In addition, students are able to install Linux at home at no cost. And with most school districts cutting costs by closing campuses immediately after the final bell, a student with Linux at home is still able to complete projects and even do "outside" projects/exploring.

Maybe a better question is whether or not Linux offers high school students a viable introduction in the world of computer software/science?

While not as "popular" in the business industry as Windows, Linux is still a powerful alternative to Windows. In addition, the source code is OPEN and hence, can be customized, changed, etc... There exists a plethora of educational possibilities in Linux, all of which are controlled by the school, teacher, and student and not a corporation in Redmond.

Re:from what I have seen in the past.

[Pharmboy]

since linux is an os and not an architecture, 'linux' can not be given to schools in the same way. linux is a free os (assuming no professional support), but the machines to run it on are not free. and even if an oem donated machines to a school, chances are they would be shipped with windows.

This does, however, give them the chance to recycle some of their older boxes, since Linux generally requires less hardware to do similar tasks. The machines that were on win95 which is no longer supported (pentium 75-266) will run just fine with linux, especially if mainly terminals, and now you have another small unix lab worth of computers. Or you can buy a few less new computers with windows. Or you can buy more new computers with linux, since you just saved a wad on licensing.

Now, just imagine a Beowulf of high schools...

(sorry, just couldn't pass that up)

How many of you are like me?

[eniu!uine]

I never learn anything from these articles. I run Linux, and I know what it's capable of... I know it will be even better when it hits the mainstream(desktopwise) and I can't wait. So I read these articles for yet another hint that what I'm waiting for is coming to pass.

Re:Hasn't it been proven?

[Politburo]

If Microsoft admits it, is that proof? So in cases where Microsoft speaks against Microsoft, their word is absolutely correct, but when Microsoft speaks for Microsoft, nothing can be trusted?

Re:Lucky people

[Politburo]

The sad thing is that they have just lost their last Linux server, which says a lot.

If this says so much, why don't you give us an example of what it "says"

Furthermore, as others have noted, a 5 minute logon time has nothing to do with Win2k and is all about a poorly maintained system, which will ruin any OS.

Re:Duh

[sfgoth]

The support overhead should be non-existant, as the school district IT staff should just set them all up as terminals, or can have images handy for quick ghosting (if needs be).

So the sysadmin that they don't have should be doing all this work (for free?)

Since when did TCO stop including the cost of deployment and support?

Re:Linux in schools

[Lechter]

This is coming a bit late to the discussion, but it would be great if someone were to tailor a distro or even provide tools to make a distro specifically towards repeatable installs in a lab environment. Something like that would greatly lower the barriers to entry for school labs. Especially if it were easy enough to update/reinstall machines when one of the students inevitablly roots or screws one of them up. After all most computer lab machines have duplicate setups and simply allow users to log in with a drive mapped, and maybe an open temporary directory. If setting this up could be made simple, I'm sure lots of schools would love to switch, especially when you consider the lower specs needed to run a basic linux machine.

Cost/benefit analysis

[MeanMF]

There is the old discussion about if Linux is truly cheaper to operate in the long run. Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch

Linux is perfect for a local school district.. Schools have the benefit of free student labor, and they don't have to worry about deadlines or downtime. Linux on cheap hardware is perfect for this kind of environment.

Re:"One Linux operator can manage 45 computers whi

[Beetjebrak]

The *nix-side of the story on configuring desktops:

Standardize on a *proper* free OS for corporate desktop use and no that's probably not Gentoo or Slack.
Yes you will spend time setting up the groundwork. However once you have the apps you need all neatly packaged up in your own .rpm's (or other package format) there's hardly anything that can go wrong upon distributing them. You can easily write a shell script that checks for updates upon every login and have those fetched from a server. That'd be YOUR installations, set up by YOUR scripts, conforming to YOUR company's policy and the way they do business, so that YOU are in control and not some closed group policy service which you can only trust because there's no way for you to find out what it actually does. Nice pickle when something goes wrong.. and I've been there..
Then there's NFS and such things as mounting things like /usr and /home directories remotely. Everything is always available to everyone and given a few clever shell scripts on the clients and some replication between servers this can be very easily load-balanced, centrally managed and backed up at the same time as well.

Your Apache vs. IIS example isn't a very strong one either. Many good tools are available to configure Apache, check the recent RedHat ISO's. And even if you were to compile it from source because of some funky module requirement, you could package the resulting binary for re-use on every other box you need to serve pages. For IIS the funky functionality would most likely simply not even be available.. Besides, how often do you set up a real webserver anyway?

Final example: FreeBSD actually does let me set up a DNS/DHCP/LDAP server the way *I* want it.. Win2K is easy until you want something out of the ordinary or something goes south and it's not in the knowledge base yet. I'm in love with my /var/log ;-)

Ok, so far for my ranting. A constructive suggestion: just give SuSE 8.1 or Redhat 8.0 a whirl. Your post sounds like you've been away from Linux for quite some time. It's come a long way, and the configurability has gotten much easier. I popped in a RH 8.0 CD a few weeks ago, clicked a few simple buttons, and was up and running with a system that'd be right at home in any small office environment. I had a full office suite, could use my fairly exotic scanner, printer works, ADSL works, could burn CD's.. if it werent for the butt-ugly BlueCurve theme I'd say I was on an Apple ;-)

Re:Hasn't it been proven?

[ponxx]

> So in cases where Microsoft speaks against Microsoft,
> their word is absolutely correct, but when Microsoft speaks for Microsoft,
> nothing can be trusted?

you got it... When the defendent admits a crime the jury almost certainly will believe it, if he denies it this is not the case.

Wha?!

[cmburns69]

Is Linux a legitimate solution to school districts facing a financial crunch?

While I agree that it is, I think you're asking the wrong crowd. It's like asking a recording industry executive "Is Napster evil?".

If you have to ask slashdot "Is linux a legitimate solution" you probably aren't a slashdot regular!

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