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Turing Test 2: A Sense of Humor

mhackarbie writes "Salon has a great story, Artificial Stupidity, about the Loebner Prize, a yearly contest that for over 10 years now has offered a $100,000 prize to anyone who can create a program to pass the Turing Test. The best part is the resulting fiasco that develops between the eccentric philanthropist who started the contest and extremely annoyed AI Researchers such as Marvin Minsky."

73 of 387 comments (clear)

  1. well ... by Meeble · · Score: 3, Funny

    All Hugh Loebner wanted to do was become world famous, eliminate all human toil, and get laid a lot.

    does this mean we're all considered entrepeneurs ?

    --
    Fear Breeds Knowledge
    1. Re:well ... by GeckoFood · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, it just means getting laid is 3rd highest on his priorities list. ;-)

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  2. Also Known As... by swordboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    and extremely annoyed AI Researchers such as Marvin Minsky

    This person is commonly known as Marvin The Martian.

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    Life is the leading cause of death in America.
  3. What about people who fail the Turing Test? by Sheriff+Fatman · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't think bots are the problem... I've had several online conversations which I'd assumed were chat-bots but turned out to be real people. I guess when Turing designed his test, he probably didn't anticipate the massive advances in human stupidity that we've witnessed in the last few decades :)

    --
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    1. Re:What about people who fail the Turing Test? by CleverNickedName · · Score: 3, Funny

      Oh?

      --


      Unfortunately, I am not Wil Wheaton
    2. Re:What about people who fail the Turing Test? by Daniel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Is it because of massive advances in human stupidity that you say you don't think bots are the problem?

      --
      Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
    3. Re:What about people who fail the Turing Test? by JaxGator75 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've met (and work with) people who would not be able to conceive of a computer that chats with you. They would assume the weird answers were from a weird person and wander off in the same manner as they usually would... I guess this Turing Test proves that the "intelligence" of the computer can only be judged by reviewing the intelligence of the User???

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    4. Re:What about people who fail the Turing Test? by M.M.M. · · Score: 2, Funny

      The program enters the Loeber competition and it tries to disqualify the jury.

      - hardwired dialogue. Totally unexpected. He must give us the price, just for the idea.

      contest entry:

      #include

      main()
      {

      printf("What are the exact rules of this contest?\n");
      printf("What is the formal definition of the Turing test?\n");
      printf("And you actually think i am DUMB?\n");

      return 0;
      }

    5. Re:What about people who fail the Turing Test? by Vryl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You post is marked "Score:5 Funny", but I would mark it "Insightful".

      That testers can believe that humans are computers is why it will never be a 'test'. Turing himself only ever called it the 'Imitation Game'.

      If there is no way to tell humans from computers, how can you ever tell the computers from the humans?

      We likes the 'turing test' not because it is scientific, but because, like intelligence itself, it is ill defined and imperfect.

      I love the Loebner quote: "My reaction to intelligence is the same as my reaction to pornography, I can't define it but I like it when I see it."

  4. petulant prima donnas and inconsistent judging... by Rastan_B2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Every person with whom I spoke about it said that last year's contest was an utter fiasco, with unclear rules, inconsistent judging, arbitrary fiats by an opaque prize committee, petulant prima donnas, and last-minute changes of venue that prevented most entrants from even discovering where the contest was taking place until after it had happened.

    Was it held in Florida as well ? Or is it just a massive coincidence ?

  5. Re:what the.. by zapfie · · Score: 2, Funny

    Er, did you read the article? Funny thing about articles, they often have information very relevant to the corresponding Slashdot story! I know, it's hard to believe! I highly recommend reading one sometime.

    Since 1989 Loebner has spent, by his account, more than $200,000 and a thousand hours of unpaid time to hasten the arrival of intelligent machines. He has set aside a gold medal and $100,000 in cash for the creator of the first machine that can pass for human. In the meantime he gives out annual prizes for programs that come closest to a long-sought holy grail in the artificial intelligence community: passing the Turing test.

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  6. hmm, well by lingqi · · Score: 5, Insightful
    some people and their followers do not believe that machines will EVER achieve human level intelligence.

    (overall a good read. certainly a buttload of speculation but no more (actually probably less) than found in Wolfram's book)

    On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with offering a prize for what he believes in. Heck we have the Templeton prize out there (more than the Nobel, no less) for best achievement in religion (christianity specifically, methinks), so what's wrong with offering 100G of his own money? We also have the X-BOX cracking contest - who is willing to bet that the believing in the chance of solving a 2048bit key in a few monthes is MUCH dumber than trying to shoot for some "not everybody agree as AI" AI?

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    1. Re:hmm, well by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bleh, them Arizona guys be kooks:
      http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/hamer off/New/ Time_Flies/Time_Flies.htm

      I could pull down their experiment in a fraction of a second. But heck, I'd have 4 seconds to pull it down, by the looks of it.
      (Hint - when a stimulus is detected in advance of the emotive image being shown, _change_ the image to a random one. (Changing to a non-emotive one would give the kooks ammo for a new claim that you predict the opposite, so keeping it random guarantees no bias either way))

      More evidence of US universities going to pot.
      Roll out Puthoff, Targ, Swann, and the SRI, that's what I say.

      YAW.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
  7. The Meta Turing Test by ites · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Any specified Turing Test can be defeated in much the same way as a lock-pick can defeat any specified lock, so perhaps we should move up one level of abstraction. I propose the "Meta Turing Test" which is as follows: specifying the conditions of the Turing Test (ability to lie, sense of humour, etc.) should allow a true human to design an automaton that fools the turing test, while a computer will not be able to do so.
    Alternatively, why not just abandon the myth that human intelligence is some kind of mystical cloud, and see it for what it is, namely a set of thinking organs each designed (or adapted, if you prefer the 'evolution is a passive process' concept) to solve specific problems, in the same way as my hand is adapted to handling objects. Then, test each of these tools carefully. Anything - computer or human - that passes the tests can be defined as 'human'. Many beings that we today consider human will probably fail. Borg borg.

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    1. Re:The Meta Turing Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think that the prize should go to the robot that can differentiate between a human and another bot

    2. Re:The Meta Turing Test by greenrd · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Any specified Turing Test can be defeated in much the same way as a lock-pick can defeat any specified lock

      No it can't. Why then has no-one won the gold Loebner Prize yet?

      The specification can be extremely simple. Here's mine: Take a panel of 10 computer scientists, a human volunteer and 11 computers. The volunteer and the AI software must both attempt to convince the panel that they're human, in IRC chat or something.

      Most AI programs would be exposed as frauds in about 30 seconds or less.

      That's why the Turing Test is so good. It's hard - because it's general, not specific. If you think it's specific to a certain task I think you have the wrong idea about what the Turing Test is.

  8. Why are they upset? by sfled · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why are Minsky and Shiber so upset that a sex-addicted pothead is sponsoring an A.I. prize, when the Father of Dynamite sponsors a Peace prize?

    Loebner can do whatever he wants with his dough. No one is being coerced into entering his contest.

    --
    I'm not really a web designer, I just play one on the Internet.
    1. Re:Why are they upset? by Hiro+Antagonist · · Score: 2, Funny

      What's wrong with being a sex-addicted pothead?

      --

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    2. Re:Why are they upset? by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Loebner can do whatever he wants with his dough. No one is being coerced into entering his contest.

      Nah, the thing that set Marvin off was the pompous set of rules for the prize.

      17.The names "Loebner Prize" and "Loebner Prize Competition" may be used by contestants in advertising only by advance written permissionof the Cambridge Center, and their use may be subject to applicab leicensing fees. Advertising is subject to approval by representatives of the Loebner Prize Competition. Improper or misleading advertising may result in revocationoftheprizeand/or other actions.

      Basically Loebner was using his prize for cheap self promotion.

      What is amazing is that Salon can recycle an eight year old Usenet flame war I watched firsthand (and posted in some of the threads even) as news.

      As usenet flamewars go it wasn't even that good of a flame war.

      Incidentally if you think the Loebner and Nobel prizes are a farce, how about MIT accepting prize money from 'inventor' Lemelson who principal talent was bogus patent claims? Fortunately Lemelson is now stone cold dead so we can speak the truth about him.

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    3. Re:Why are they upset? by manyoso · · Score: 3, Informative

      That is not fair. Minsky might have percieved that this was the case, but it doesn't follow that it was. Loebner gave a perfectly good explanation for the clause (See below) and it seems pretty hypocritical that Minsky fumes that Loebner uses his name as co-sponsor in advertising ;)

      From: loebner@ACM.ORG (Hugh Loebner)
      Newsgroups: comp.ai
      Subject: Minsky Co-sponsor of Loebner Prize!
      Date: 8 Mar 1995 16:48:36 GMT
      Organization: ACM Network Services
      Lines: 63
      Message-ID:

      In Message ID Minsky writes:

      >In article loebner@ACM.ORG writes ....
      >>17.The names "Loebner Prize" and "Loebner Prize Competition" may be used by
      >>contestants in advertising only by advance written permissionof the Cambridge
      >>Center, and their use may be subjecttoapplicableicensingfees. Advertising is
      >>subjecttoapprovalbyrepresentativesoftheLoebn e r Prize Competition.Improper or
      >>misleading advertising may result in revocationoftheprizeand/or other actions.

      >[Some words concatenated to enforce the 80-character line length
      >convention.]

      >I do hope that someone will volunteer to violate this proscription so
      >that Mr. Loebner will indeed revoke his stupid prize, save himself
      >some money, and spare us the horror of this obnoxious and unproductive
      >annual publicity campaign.

      >In fact, I hereby offer the $100.00 Minsky prize to the first person
      >who gets Loebner to do this. I will explain the details of the rules
      >for the new prize as soon as it is awarded, except that, in the
      >meantime, anyone is free to use the name "Minsky Loebner Prize
      >Revocation Prize" in any advertising they like, without any licensing
      >fee.

      1. Marvin Minsky will pay $100.00 to anyone who gets me to
      "revoke" the "stupid" Loebner Prize.

      2. "Revoke" the prize means "discontinue" the prize.

      3. After the Grand Prize is won, the contest will be
      discontinued.

      4. The Grand Prize winner will "get" me to discontinue the
      Prize.

      5. The Grand Prize winner will satisfy The Minsky Prize criterion.

      6. Minsky will be morally obligated to pay the Grand Prize
      Winner $100.00 for getting me to discontinue the contest.

      7. Minsky is an honorable man.

      8. Minsky will pay the Grand Prize Winner $100.00

      9. Def: "Co-sponsor": Anyone who contributes or promises to
      contribute a monetary prize to the Grand Prize winner .

      10. Marvin Minskey is a co-sponsor of the 1995 Loebner Prize
      Contest.
      -------------
      BTW

      The language that Minsky finds so offensive was added
      by the Prize Committee because of a possible mis-representation
      regarding the contest made by an annual prize winner.

      No fees have been requested of any winner, nor do I anticipate
      of any fees ever being requested. Rule 17 merely protects the
      Loebner Prize from misrepresentation in advertising.


    4. Re:Why are they upset? by FredFnord · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Rule 17 was not the only example of Loebner and co. being pompous and humorless.

      I've looked over the article and some of the transcripts. It seems pretty obvious to me who gets the mantle of 'pompous and humorless.'

      Minsky's best attempt at humor was his $100 'prize', and Loebner turned that around and made it bite him so hard that I doubt the man will ever attempt humor again. Which is okay, I guess... it was amazingly pathetic and meanspirited even before Loebner hit him over the head with it.

      Basically, you have a person who everyone in the field thinks is a god. Is it any wonder that everyone in the field thinks that every time he opens his mouth, whatever he's arguing against is successfully demolished? They don't even have to listen to whatever he's saying... I mean, how often does God get out-argued in the bible? Can't happen. Ignore all evidence to the contrary. I guess it's not even surprising that his arguments don't hold water... if you've been considered a god for a while, your 'intelligent argument' muscles start to atrophy. And no matter what anyone says, those are diffreent muscles than the ones you flex when you're thinking about how to set up a new kind of neural net.

      It seems to me that Loebner has his points. You may not agree with them, but at least try to find sound reasons for disagreeing. Saying that HE is humorless and pompous, when Minsky has laid nearly exclusive claim to that particular high ground in the conversation, just makes you look, uh, humorless and pompous. And maybe a wee bit... dumb?

      -fred

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  9. Re:So... by labratuk · · Score: 3, Funny
    ...and by extension that would mean they aren't sentient bei...

    oh.

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    Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
  10. Bloody-Mindedness by handy_vandal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "... extremely annoyed AI Researchers ..."

    Perhaps "extremely annoyed" is what distinguishes human intelligence from machine intelligence?

    In John Brunner's non-novel Stand on Zanzibar, cranky sociologist Chad Mulligan declares that supercomputer Shalmaneser is now intelligent because Shalmaneser has displayed the quality of "bloody-mindedness". Not the same as "annoyance", of course, but in the same emotional realm ....

    --
    -kgj
  11. Missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think that people who focus on the Turing test are missing the point, this isn't really AI and probably doesn't have much of a use outside advertising to via IRC/personal messaging etc.

    The real interesting areas of research in AI are for example: in dye-master processes, where AI replaces a highly skilled human, or automating the driving of cars. These are all AI and, IMHO, much more impressive than glorified Eliza, Turing test stuff...

    1. Re:Missing the point by Christianfreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I disagree, these bots are made to parse language and make sense out of it. They can be (if people think outside the realm of IRC bots) important research in developing a conversational interface to a computer or robot.

    2. Re:Missing the point by Rocketboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have the distinct feeling that "worthy" AI objectives are defined by the AI community as "those things we think we can do reasonably well at the moment." In my opinion, the AI community disparages Turing Test-like objectives because they've been unsuccessful at achieving them. To me that makes AI less like science and more like selling Florida time-share condos. Kinda tough on high-profile PhD's, but what the hell: I don't actually know any of them anyway.

    3. Re:Missing the point by King+Babar · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I have the distinct feeling that "worthy" AI objectives are defined by the AI community as "those things we think we can do reasonably well at the moment."

      Not hardly. As it turns out, one of the more frustrating aspects of AI is that once some particular computation that would appear to be correlated with intelligence can be performed, then it invariably doesn't count as AI anymore. So there are lots of practical systems out there today that can prove theorems, do symbolic algebra, play chess better than 99.999% of all people, a whole bunch of stuff. But hardly any of this strikes us as AI anymore. On the other hand, there are lots of horribly difficult problems out there whose solutions we really can't expect to get at within 10 years, and those are all "good" AI problems. Now, one thing that makes them good problems is that we know they contain many different thesis-sized projects that correspond to sub-goals for the "real" problem, and because it is possible that knocking off some of these subgoals could yield some real insights.

      Now the interesting thing to notice here is that Turing was a *very* smart guy, and any program that successfully passes the strong version of the Turing Test has almost by definition solved every hard problem that confronts AI, and all of the subproblems that compose those problems, and... It's a truly gargantuan task, and one where even your most advanced programs are almost guaranteed to look really bad in competition.

      Having said that, I do still think there is some point in holding contests like the Loebner, not for what they will tell us about the state of how fast AI is progressing, but because the programmers who compete at this point really are trying to scam the system and "get away with" producing a program that is NOT intelligent but that might LOOK like they are intelligent. Understanding how clever these deceptions can be, and why we fall for them, is itself an interesting by product of the competition. So the importance of ELIZA in the end was not that it was a great piece of code or introduced techniques that we could build on directly, but because it taught us a *lot* about people's implicit assumptions about a conversational partner, and how you could generate conversational situations that could finesse the hard stuff. So people don't go out to talk to ELIZA with the goal of determining that it is just a program; they don't go looking for the disconfirming evidence. That's a pretty key point in itself.

      --

      Babar

    4. Re:Missing the point by jcast · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In my opinion, the AI community disparages Turing Test-like objectives because they've been unsuccessful at achieving them.

      That's not an opinion; that's an incorrect factual statement. As for why it's incorrect: the Turing Test implicitly defines intelligent as `indiscernable from a human'. By Leibniz' principle, this means `a human'. So, a computer can never acheive the Turing Test's definition of `intelligence'. Of course, the AI community believes computers can be intelligent, so they have to reject the Turing Test, in much the same way that the practitioners of any field have to reject standards that implicitly outlaw their field. To give an analogy, requiring AIs to hold up under Turing Test conditions would be like requiring theories of evolution to satisfy hard-core Bible-thumpers. Scientists (quite rightly) don't accept those conditions, but no one says that ``makes biology less like science and more like selling Florida time-share condoes''.
      --
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      -- David D. Friedman
  12. A sense of humour? by mccalli · · Score: 5, Funny
    Computers passed that test years ago. I mean, who can forget the classic:
    keyboard not found, press F1 to continue

    Cheers,
    Ian

  13. The program that passes the test is : by __aahlyu4518 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the program that alters the test to fit its own capabilities. That is cheating? How more human can it get ? Humanity is constantly adapting it's surroundings to fit its own needs...

  14. Consciousness by ChristopherAltman · · Score: 5, Interesting


    Physics of Consciousness

    Building a machine to pass the Turing Test is one thing, but the nature of consciousness itself is the more profound question here. Rodney Brooks asked this question in a relatively recent Edge Online interview.
    What are we missing in our computational models of living systems?

    Chris

    http://www.umsl.edu/~altmanc/
    http://www.artilect.org/

    --
    Quantum computing / Artificial intelligence: http://www.umsl.edu/~altmanc/news.html
  15. The "Turing test" was a joke by hqm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The author of the article appears never to have read the article by Turing where he described the so-called 'test'. It is clear that Turing was a deep and subtle thinker way ahead of his time. If you read what he is saying in context, he is arguing that first and foremost, thought can be automated in the sense of a universal computer which can compute anything that a brain can. To his critics who said that this was somehow impossible, he created a reducto-ad-absurdum argument; he said look if you are talking to this machine and it is composing sonnets which are like Shakespeare, and you *still* can't say it's intelligent, then you are an idiot. He was not proposing that this was an objective test or a desirable thing to do, he was poking fun at idiots like the author of the Salon article.

    1. Re:The "Turing test" was a joke by redragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      *ding ding*

      Turing wasn't looking for a UNIVERSALY INTELLIGENT MACHINE, he was looking at how machines could act intelligently. We're not talking about human in a computer, we're talking about can a computer act intelligently. If you think it's impossible, tell that to people that can be "fooled" by bots on IRC or MUDS for weeks or more.

      Seriously, we're obsessed with the idea of human intelligence, which is often times an oxymoron, but that's what we want...

      --
      - Sighuh?
  16. Sundman by tcdk · · Score: 2, Informative

    John Sundman who has written this article has also written a quite interestion book called Cheap Complex Devices (he mentions is in the article).

    It's kind of wierd and strange - the idea is that the novel was one of two novels written by a computer program.

    I've reviewed it here.

    --
    TC - My Photos..
  17. Academic AI is a con game by RobotWisdom · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I was active on comp.ai at the time Minsky made his offer [Google query], and I'm convinced the real reason academic AI hates the Loebner Prize is that it shows up how little they've managed to accomplish.

    I agree that the entries are really bad-- one recent winner just said the same things no matter what the human asked. But one winner, unmentioned in Salon, was Thom Whalen, whose design was a genuine advance in the art. (Regrettably, Loebner changed the rules to exclude his approach in the future.)

    What Whalen did was limit his domain to one topic, and compile a set of general answers to likely questions, which he matched by spotting keywords. So even if the answer wasn't a perfect match, it was general enough to be useful. This design should be better known and more widely used, and the Loebner contest would have been a good launchpad to bring it to people's attention if the academics weren't so prejudiced.

    But the top academics get six-figure salaries for generating lots of jargon and no useful products, so a level playing-field is the last thing they want.

    1. Re:Academic AI is a con game by RobotWisdom · · Score: 4, Insightful
      How is what you describe an advance in AI?

      It's a paradigm shift-- instead of looking for complicated 'solutions' that will enhance their status, Whalen took a fresh look at the problem and found a way to deliver useful results with no particularly fancy algorithms.

      It's nothing that anyone couldn't already add to a system that needs it.

      No one had at the time, and few are even aware of the idea now.

      Check out TRECK

      The dismal website design shows how little they appreciate Whalen's insight-- I clicked four different links on the homepage and ended up with ZERO examples of their work. This is absolutely typical of academic-AI websites-- a whole lot of self-congratulation and almost no effort to communicate. (Contrast that with any healthy science, where tutorials aimed at beginners are a dime a dozen.)

      To say AI has made no advances because we can't fool people into thinking they're talking to someone

      Those words are yours. Academic AI has made a few minor advances, but continues to project itself as possessing arcane, complex secrets that deserve big paychecks.

    2. Re:Academic AI is a con game by Forgotten · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Looks like you got it, though I interpret that the grand prize requirement is arbitrary audiovisual input rather than ASCII art. Pretty steep.

      Whalen has some invaluable musings and observations on the contest and his second entry. I remember the generalist strategy from the Alice CHAT simulation in the early nineties (linked in the grandparent post), and it doesn't look like that was really the problem - Wientraub's winning entry end-runs it with smooth non-sequiturs. In many ways that does point out the weakness in the contest, and even in the Turing test itself (weak versions anyway). Whalen's work with CHAT and TIPS has always been geared to actually delivering information (ie. being useful instead of merely clever), so I'm not surprised he didn't use that same strategy.

      You can chat with Whalen's entries at the telnet site.

  18. Fusion Power by krysith · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I used to work in nuclear fusion research. They've been saying it is twenty years away for almost 50 years now. The joke in the industry is, "Fusion power is the energy of the future, and always will be!". (actually, I am fairly positive on fusion power, but I think that spending the vast majority of research funds on a few large experiments is counterproductive)

  19. Why the contest rubs AI people the wrong way by arvindn · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Turing defined the test more than 50 years ago. Considering that there were barely any machines at that time that we would call computers today, his prescience was remarkable.

    Turing stipulated in the Turing test (TT) that the "interrogator" specifically has the goal of trying to determine which of the contestants is human and which is the machine. Unfortunately, the way the Loebner contest is conducted, this important requirement is completely ignored (at least in the default $2000 prize). As a result, the results of the contest are completely irrelevant from the point of view of the Turing test. Claiming otherwise is incorrect and misleading, and Loebner fully deserves all the criticism he gets.

    The TT is still fully valid today. We are very far from building bots that will pass it. (though Turing predicted that by 2000 we will have machines that will pass TT). In fact, the whole direction of work on the bots participating in the current day Loebner contests is irrelevant from the TT point of view. They work mostly by building enormous databases of statement-response pairs and doing minimal reasoning. Turing would have died laughing if he had known people would take this approach to passing the TT. Let me illustrate why the database idea is insufficient by itself: for a bot to pass the real TT, it would have to answer questions like "what is the integral of e^x dx". Remember that the interrogator is actively trying to find out if it is a human or a bot. The objection "but two humans in conversation wouldn't ask such question" is invalid, and this is precisely why the Loebner contest is stupid.

    The reason why today's bots are so unsuccesful is not far to seek. It has long been known in the AI community that get anywhere near passing the TT, a bot would need what is known as "world knowledge". To build world knowledge, you need memory approximately the capacity of the human brain: estimated to be the order of a petabyte. And processing power to match: the brain runs something like a billion threads in parallel, and is 10^7 times as energy efficient per computation as today's computers. Of course, we aren't there yet. Thus, contrary to what most people would feel the thing that is holding AI up is hardware.

    Similar to today's bot craze, there have been crazes in the past when people thought they were close to building truly intelligent machines ("expert systems" comes to mind.) However, they inevitably came up short because the hardware power wasn't there. In about 20-30 years, assuming there continue to be breakthroughs in storage technology to keep up the doubling, computers will be matching the brain's capacity, and then we'll be talking.

    Summary: to hell with people who apparently popularize science and end up giving the real researchers a bad name.

    1. Re:Why the contest rubs AI people the wrong way by timster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh no. The way I see it is, the interregator would be free to ask that question, and the computer would have to answer it -- but in such a way that would make the interregator believe that the computer was human. For example it could say, "I don't know what you mean", or better, "sorry, I flunked Calculus."

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    2. Re:Why the contest rubs AI people the wrong way by renoX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Thus, contrary to what most people would feel
      > the thing that is holding AI up is hardware.

      Uh? Not only the hardware!
      Let's suppose that you have a computer as powerfull as a brain: I give it to you and say now try to pass the Turing test, would you be able to do it?

      No, because you would be missing:
      1) the software 2) the database.

      We have very little clue about how to do the software right now.
      And even if you had a software which could be interesting, you'd still have to build a HUGE database if you want to have an interesting result..
      And the funny thing is that to really know if your software is interesting or not, first you have to invest a lot of time and money to build the database..
      And if a computer is better than another (with the same hardware to simplify comparison) would it be because it has a better software or a better database?

      Also I disagree with you that making a competition with the Turing test is only to give researchers bad name: human vs computer chess competitions existed also back when human beat computers without effort and nobody protested that it was giving AI researchers a bad name.
      Of course in the end, it seems that beating human has been made thanks to advance in computer power but caused very little progress in AI researches.

      I hope that Go competitions between man and machine will be more interesting for AI researchers.

    3. Re:Why the contest rubs AI people the wrong way by Noehre · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hardware is the least of our worries.

      To emulate the human brain, one must first understand how the human brain actually works. We know next to nothing about the framework that allows human consciousness. Sure, we know quite a bit about neurons and synapses and such, but we don't know how all of this comes together to form an object that can think.

      Even with a massively powerful computer, one hundreds of times more powerful than the human brain, we would be unable to make that computer 'think' because we don't know what it MEANS to 'think.' And even if we did, there is the problem of programming that computer to emulate those brain processes in such a way that the computer can become conscious.

      Overall, I don't see a computer being able to think for a long, long time.

  20. Re:The most interesting thing... by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 4, Funny
    for years and years and years, researchers have been promising AI was just around the corner... And what do we have right now? Nothing!

    Get with the program, dude: we had AI even in the UK last year. I didn't go and see it though, because it starred that irritating kid from "The Sixth Sense".

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  21. The Best Part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In 1995, about a year after the publication of Shieber's article, Marvin Minsky, the father of artificial intelligence, posted a notice on the comp.ai and comp.ai.philosophy Usenet newsgroups. In it he drew attention to a clause in the Loebner contest rules to the effect that using the term "Loebner Competition" without permission could result in a revocation of the prize.

    Minsky wrote, "I do hope that someone will volunteer to violate this proscription so that Mr. Loebner will indeed revoke his stupid prize, save himself some money, and spare us the horror of this obnoxious and unproductive annual publicity campaign. In fact, I hereby offer the $100.00 Minsky prize to the first person who gets Loebner to do this. I will explain the details of the rules for the new prize as soon as it is awarded, except that, in the meantime, anyone is free to use the name "Minsky Loebner Prize Revocation Prize" in any advertising they like, without any licensing fee."

    (Minsky did not respond to e-mails requesting an interview.)

    If the CACM article marked Loebner's fall from grace, the Minsky note on comp.ai marked his utter banishment into the wilds of A.I. quackery.

    Can you imagine, for example, being a graduate student in computer science at a big-name school in 1996 and telling your major professor that your goal was to win the Loebner? Loebner was more "out" than Liberace.

    But Loebner did not take his snubbing meekly. Loebner immediately wrote back that the best way for Minsky to get Loebner to revoke his prize was to win it. Of course Minsky had already hinted that Loebner had never made clear what the rules for winning the prize were, so that was not a very satisfactory rejoinder. But then a few days later ("while taking a nice hot bath, drinking a fine wine, about an hour after smoking a really fat joint"), Loebner came up with a more considered and clever response, one that still rattles Minsky nearly a decade later.

    Minsky had announced that he would give $100 to whoever made Loebner stop his contest. But Loebner would only stop his contest when somebody won the gold medal. Therefore, Loebner reasoned, Minsky, being an honorable man, would give $100 to whoever won the ultimate Loebner competition. Therefore, Marvin Minsky was a cosponsor of the Loebner competition, simple as that. It was delicious!

    Loebner promptly issued a press release saying that Marvin Minsky was now a cosponsor of the Loebner Prize, by virtue of his announcement of the "Minsky Loebner Prize Revocation Prize." What made this development so delightfully ironic was Minsky's own statement that anyone was free to use the name "Minsky Loebner Prize Revocation Prize" in any advertising they liked, which made it nearly impossible for Minsky to prevent Loebner from doing just that. Which is why Loebner continues to cite Minsky as a cosponsor of his event every chance he gets.

    The image that comes to my mind whenever I think of this development is from the sublime cartoons of the late, great Chuck Jones, with Hugh Loebner in the role of Bugs Bunny, and Marvin Minsky, the father of artificial intelligence, in the role of Yosemite Sam, stamping his feet, with smoke coming from his ears. In fact, Minsky is still listed as a cosponsor of Loebner's prize on the Web site, and, as we'll see, Minsky is still stamping his feet.

  22. AI is a fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I worked in a research lab that shared a building with MIT's artificial intelligence laboratory. And I have to agree with the article. The AI field is a fraud. Again and again, there would be big placards in the lobby announcing gala media events up in the AI Lab. (We lesser mortals dutifully clomped upstairs to eat the expensive, catered food.)

    And yet *nothing* *ever* *happens* in the field.

    Every now and then a new "hero" emerges. For a while it was Minsky. In recent years, it has been Rodney Brooks. Regardless, you can see the current hero on TV all the time, commenting on matters as an "AI expert". They don't tell you that Brooks' course is widely viewed as a complete crock; a few puerile algorithms, some linear differential equations, some finite automata, and THAT'S IT. The rest is all blabbering with no substance.

    The AI community uses rotating hero-worship in lieu of progress. But it isn't like any of these guys is an actual "AI expert". There are no "AI experts", because there is no such thing as artificial intelligence in this world. They are no more experts on AI than I am an expert on Martian fruit exports. In this field, you don't need real research; an Australian accent and good sense of humor suffice.

    True artificial intelligence would be amazing. But the field has made essentially zero progress in the last fifty years. Obviously, it is a really hard problem. On one hand, the AI guys do what other fields do when they're stuck (since they *must* continue to pump out graduate students, attract grants, etc.), they keep trying to change the question. But the pathetic thing is that many completely denigrate the most obviously fair benchmark-- the Turing test.

    Coincidentally, a benchmark showing the complete failure of the field.

    1. Re:AI is a fraud by MxTxL · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dude, sharing a building with AI types an expert on AI does not make.

      Examples of advances in AI:

      1. Computer programs able to spank all but the best humans playing chess.

      2. Computer programs able to spank your ass playing even more complex games like CIV 3, C&C, etc.

      3. Google saying "Searching 3,083,324,652 web pages" and "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,500,000. Search took 0.07 seconds"

      There's been huge advances in AI with such things as Genetic Algorithms and Fuzzy logic. The applications are very specific and are not the far reaching HAL 9000 that people traditionally think of when you say AI. There is no 'singular consciosusness' that is going to pop out of your computer. That is NOT what AI is about. AI is about solving problems. More specifically, it's about finding methods for a computer to solve problems without brute forcing them.

      For example, it would be easy for a computer to beat a chessmaster if the computer had the whole search tree available. The out come of every move of every game would be available, and it would be trivial to steer it towards a victory. But since the tree is HUGE and would take many hundreds of years to generate, the problem of computers playing chess is to get them to figure out a 'smart' way to beat the chessmaster. Alpha-beta tree pruning and things like that are the results. Don't underestimate the power of these.

      There are great things coming out of AI research all the time, but you will not be seeing HAL 9000 any time soon.

    2. Re:AI is a fraud by ian+tichy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did you work in the lab as a guinea pig, by any chance? Because you seem to have very little understanding of what AI is about.

      The Turing test is not relevant for one simple reason - it does nothing to connect the lines of research that are currently being actively (and - gasp!- successfully, on occasion) pursued in the field of AI. Yes, fifty years ago AI researchers thought that computers would be able to mimic the behavior of human beings: but the field was just emerging at the time, and people didn't have an understanding of the tremendous complexities involved. (Consider, for comparison, that at the time calculus emerged, people thought that it would be the ultimate tool for explaining all mysteries Life, Universe, and Everything.) Since that time however, these complexities became apparent - many problems in AI have been shown to be Turing-undecidable (no algorithmic solution is possible), and virtually every open problem in the field is at least NP-hard. Furthermore, you cannot really develop human-like intelligence without understanding how the human mind works, and that understanding is sadly lacking. It took hundreds of millions of years for evolution to produce intelligent beings: and this is intelligence is manifested through a massively parallel, largely mysterious mechanism (the brain). Is it even remotely reasonable to expect that researchers would be able to emulate this poorly understood mechanism using vastly different underlying hardware in only 50 years?

      The point - one that you are so throughly miss - is that the goal of AI is not to build cute robot friends for the human race, but to devise complex systems to solve specific problems that currently require human intelligence. As such, the field of AI has long ago been split into intersecting sub-domains of machine learning, knowledge represetnation, planning, natural language understanding, e.t.c. Each of those has had some degree of success, and produced plenty of concerete results, from expert systems, to game playing, to automatic translators, to SPAM filters, to name just a few. My own research is in Bioinformatics, where machine learning techniques have proven very valuable, and are constantly being used.

      Is this real intelligence? You can argue that it is not. But most AI researchers understand that, for now, achieving human-like intelligence a pipe dream: there are neither the computational tools nor the biological understanding to tackle a problem of this magnitude. Instead, the field is slowly advancing in various directions, making some progress in bridging skill-sets that require human intelligence with those that are best accomplished by computers. That is what AI research is really about: it is real, it is rigorous, and it produces tangible, useful results (rather than some abstract notion of being able to fool humans in a chat session.) Calling it a "fraud" out of ignorance hardly changes matters.

      --
      Life is too important to be taken seriously - Oscar Wilde
    3. Re:AI is a fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But this still doesn't say what AI is.

      I work in numerical physics, the sorts of problems we are trying to solve would, if you tried "brute force", involve matrices of the order of 10^100 or more variables (and that is only for a toy problem, a 'real' system would have vastly more). But, by making various approximations, you can, in some interesting cases, reduce the size of the problem to something that is actually solvable on a computer. But, the algorithms are all put in by hand, there is absolutely no 'intelligence' in the program at all. But, it is all about solving problems without brute force.

      Genetic algorithms and fuzzy logic are just another class of approximation algorithms to avoid the brute force search. Why is one classed as AI and the other isn't?

      For even more hypocricacy, the method of 'simulated annealing' is often included along GA's and such. But this is nothing more or less than the Metropolis algorithm of Monte-Carlo used commonly in physics, but applied to some other problem instead. I use different numerical methods and I don't think anyone has tried before to apply them to "AI"-type problems, but it would not suprise me if it was possible. Would that suddenly propel me into the exalted ranks of the AI gods?

      Everything you describe above came about because of some *algorithm*: someone comes up with an algorithm for ranking pages based on links to/from other pages (google), someone comes up with an algorithm to evaluate promising lines in a decision tree (chess) etc etc. Sure, there is a vast amount of intelligence here, but it is all in the algorithm design, the computer itself is pretty dumb. Lots of human intelligence, to make up for lots of artificial stupidness.

      Perhaps neural networks and such self-modifying/learning algorithms form a distinct class, that can (provably?) solve some problems better than non-learning algorithms. I've never seen (or heard of) a proof this, and the notable lack of neural networks in real calculations suggests that their success is maybe not quite as general as reports would have us believe.

      I think that we are no closer to REAL artificial intelligence than we were 50 years ago. Perhaps further away in fact, in the sense that we can now at least formulate (partially) the questions properly: eg, is AI an emergent property of a system having simple rules but complex behaviour (the 'strong' AI hypothesis), or is there something not yet understood about how the brain works that means we cannot (with today's knowledge of physics) reproduce? (This is the argument of Penrose.)

      But even this question is, in some ways, older than computers, since it really comes to the heart of how to 'interpret' quantum mechanics, and the measurement problem, which has been an issue for almost 100 years. So, how far have we come?

  23. Re:The most interesting thing... by cgenman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This strikes me as true: for years and years and years, researchers have been promising AI was just around the corner... And what do we have right now? Nothing!

    Well, nothing is a very relative term. We now have AI capable of counting the number of cars on a given street given a photograph of a region, and can automatically follow people / vehicles / animals as they travel around and through objects. OCR is accurate enough to be implemented professionally, and voice recognition is up to 95%. None of these were possible 25 years ago, and not just because of a lack of hardware.

    While full AI is still a while away, the first major stumbling block, pattern recognition, is well on its way to being solved.

    The AI in Quake 3 is much better than the AI in Pong.

    -C

  24. If there is any existing program... by dfenstrate · · Score: 2, Interesting

    that has a chance in hell, I'm placing my bets on Cyc

    It's basically a computer program that a bunch of researchers have spent 60 million dollars trying to teach it common sense. And they've had some impressive advancements. Previous slashdot story here

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    1. Re:If there is any existing program... by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "a bunch of researchers have spent 60 million dollars trying to teach it common sense."

      Link says:
      "The military, which has invested $25 million in Cyc"

      Now if you knew the absolute bollocks the military has spent money on, you'd ignore that figure entirely. The military has paid Ingo Swann (or was it P&T?) much more than that for bullshit remote-viewing "research" which has so far proclaimed great success, but been unalbe to reproduce anything under independent scrutiny. Go read James Randi and Martin Gardener, as they've written a fair bit on the absolute nonsense the military has spent its money on.

      YAW.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
  25. Nethack AI by gklyber · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about designing a bot to play Nethack until it ascends.

  26. A.I. is an oxymoron by slimemold · · Score: 5, Insightful
    While the last thing I want to do is defend A.I. researchers, they have gotten a raw deal in one respect. Whenever a program performs a human-like endeavor (e.g. playing chess) at human-level-or-above ability, the first thing people ask is "How does it work?" The programmers then proudly explain their algorithms (e.g. adaptive n-ply search with a heuristic evaluation function emphasizing piece mobility blah blah blah).

    Lo and behold, what first appeared to be intelligence is now just an elaborate sequence of if-then statements. Anyone could have done it. It's not intelligence at all. It's just following a blueprint. You call this intelligence?

    In other words, the lay public expects A.I. to have creativity and strokes of genius, which is much more than they expect of most humans. Or they expect it to be furry with big eyes that makes cooing noises when you pet it. As soon as one realizes that A.I. consists of a computer program, any notion of intelligence evaporates.

    1. Re:A.I. is an oxymoron by Romanpoet · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The assumption is that human intelligence and human minds are really nothing more than a program in of themselves. The criticism that these AI computer programs are 'simply following a mindless program' would be responded with, "Well of course it's just following a program! So am I except that instead of code my brain is following a program of interactions among neurons and chemicals based upon the laws of physics and chemistry!"

      -- An assumption of the field of AI is that all human mind and intelligence is essentially a computer program, or if not that it is a machine of some sort.

      -Romanpoet

    2. Re:A.I. is an oxymoron by zzyzx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem isn't so much that it is if-then statements as that AI solutions to problems tend to be based around brute force. "I checked every possible series of actions and this one seems to be the best." That is far different from the way that we seem to make decisions, so it doesn't seem intelligent to us.

  27. NOTE: Another good article from Salon..... by Booie+Paog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    you know, the company that apparently everyone wants to DIE ? what other online magazine would/has run this ?

  28. What is Intelligence? by AlecC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This just shows that we don't actualy know what we mean when we say "Intelligence". It just meant "What I am thinking about when I say Intelligence".

    The Turing Test is not a pass-mark to achieve intelligence, it is an outside limit to stop argument. If something passes, completely, the Turing test, then you know you have intelligence. But that is asn extremely high benchmark. It is like saying that if you can outrun all known vehicles, I have to grant you are a fast runner. You *may* still be a fast runner when when you run a lot slower than that - but we will have to enter into a discussion about how fast is fast. Turing just set an endpoint - it it passes his test it is certainly intelligent.

    There are two ways the Turing Text could be passed. One is via a special purpose machine to pass it - a human simulator. While of research interest, because building such a machine would tell us a lot about how we actually do work, this is unlikely to be a very useful machine, because it will replicate our weaknesses as well as our strengths. Why spend billions building what half an hours funa and a nine month wait can build. (One-way trips to the stars, perhaps?).

    The other way is a general purpose machine which has learned how to copy humans perfectly. By any definition I can think of, this would be an awesomely intelligent machine because it would have learned to understand, and simulate, our minds by the power of pure intellect. Something like playing all the instuments in the orchestra at the same time.

    While I think that the first class of machine may well be built in the fullness of time, It will not be very useful. I don't know whether the second class will ever be built - I doubt it.

    Which brings us back to the "sub-Turing" class of intelligence. If Turing represents an upper limit to the grey area of where intelligence starts, there must be levels of achievement which would be regarded as intelligent by most, if not all, peoples judgement.

    I then ask the question: what use is sub-Turing intelligence? Well, there are lots of tasks which we regard as needing intelligence which we would like to automate. In fact, some of them have already been automated. But when we automate them, we say "we know how that automaton works, so it can't be intelligence". Chess, for example - once regarded as the last test before the Turing test, now regarded as a nifty but essentially unimportant achievement.

    We don't actually *know* what we mean when we say "Intelligence". Turing knew that, and provided an empirical rather than analytical test. However, I would say that "Intelligence" bears the same relationship to "Computer Science" as "Magic" does to "Technology" in Clarke's Law: "Any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

    "Any sufficiently advanced Computer Science is indistinguisahable from Intelligence" - Cawley's Law.

    Or, to put it another way, Intelligence means "I don't understand how you thought that".

    Which explains how Joe Luser thinks his computer is intelligent, whereas Bill Slashdot doesn't.

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    1. Re:What is Intelligence? by Stuntmonkey · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or, to put it another way, Intelligence means "I don't understand how you thought that".

      This is an interesting view, and there are a couple of corollaries if you take it seriously:

      • Corollary 1: Intelligence depends on how a calculation is done, not merely on its results. In other words, the Turing test is fundamentally flawed. A chess-playing Deep Junior is unintelligent because we know that in principle we could look at its code and understand the rules behind its behavior (in this case, alpha/beta search plus a position evaluator). By contrast, Kasparov is intelligent because he evaluates the gestalt of a position in a way that we cannot analytically understand. Even if we could closely monitor his neural activity and follow the computation in his brain, it is a collective activity of so many constituent neurons that it is not "conceptually reducible" to us as Deep Junior's algorithm is. One would conclude that even if Kasparov were to lose to a computer, he would still be playing the game intelligently whereas the computer would not.
      • Corollary 2: True intelligence can only be achieved by systems that are opaque to "why did you conclude that?" kinds of analyses. Collective/swarm intelligence would be opaque in this way, but rules/knowledge-based systems would not. This would imply that the "traditional" AI approach is doomed to failure.
  29. Re:comedy by oliverthered · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Jokes are all more-or-less the same but have different levels of abstraction.

    I would say something like...

    Throwing stones
    Slap stick
    Word play
    Parody and sarcasm
    Association jokes ('Why do men have one more brain cell the dogs? so they don't try to hump your leg at parties')
    Parody and sarcasm (again, more the bill hicks style)

    Most 'good?' stand-ups do alot of Association comedy, it builds a link with the audience, and makes things seem more funny.
    an AI can easily manage throwing stones, slapstick, word play and basic parody/sarcasm since they require low levels of empathy.Higler levels require the teller to have a high level of empathy with the audience, which is currently out the ability of AI's.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  30. Don't like it, just ignore the contest. by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Funny the AI researchers seem to be upset with the contest.

    But I find it strange that various people keep trying to either:
    1) Take part.
    2) Stop the contest.
    3) Tell the contest sponsor how to run the contest or spend his money.

    Are they really so hard up for Loebner's money? If their stuff really works I'm sure they can get money from other people.

    As far as I know none of the AI entrants so far deserve the main prize.

    It's almost as if the tailors are upset that someone every year points out the emperor is naked. If indeed the emperor isn't naked why get upset?

    Or they admit the emperor is naked and they are just tired of hearing about it? Well so far has any of them admitted that?

    --
  31. Jaron Lanier said it best... by TheOrquithVagrant · · Score: 4, Funny

    My favorite quote about the Turing test comes from Jaron Lanier:

    "Only a fucked-up gay Englishman being tortured with hormone injections could possibly have supposed that consciousness was some kind of social exam you had to pass."

  32. I particurly like how Loebner by RembrandtX · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I particurly like how Loebner out foxed Marvin Minsky with the ammunition Minsky gave him.

    Sure the guy may be a pot head, might not want a lasting relationship with a woman, and is probally a horribly annoying git from hell.

    He did however, manage to outthink the 'brightest' mind in AI research. Maybe the reasons he did were purile .. but he still did it.

    As a programmer I know I was taught to think in small steps, think ahead to the probable issues my code might cause, and to double check my work before dropping it on a production box.

    Apparantly Minsky forgot he was a computer scientist when he wrote that news group response.
    I'm sure it was just a flame mail, a very human response to frustration and irritation. But as one of the Leading names in AI research, he should have known better.

    So, if for nothing else, my hats off to the 'Disco-Floor-Maker' for out thinking one of the 'leaders' in AI research.

    Its always nice to watch an acidemic geek get smacked down by someone who lives with the rest of society.

    --

    --Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
    1. Re:I particurly like how Loebner by loebner · · Score: 2, Informative

      No.

      Minsky specifically offered a $100 prize to anyone who would "get me" to discontinue the contest, and hoped that someone would win it. I pointed out that the winner of the Grand Prize would satisfy Minsky's criterion and that Minsky would be obligated to reward him/her = co-sponsoring the contest.

  33. Re:The most interesting thing... by sbaker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Part of the problem is that things that were once considered part of AI have moved out and become mainstream technology. Voice recognition, Expert Systems, Fuzzy Logic, Neural Nets, Chess playing computers...all of these were once considered to be unsolved AI problems but since they are now in common use, we don't consider them a part of AI anymore.

    You can find plenty of twenty to thirty year old textbooks that tell you that playing chess at grand master level would be a sign of computer intelligence - now we know that all it takes are some clever heuristics and a lot of CPU power.

    As soon as computers can pass the Turing Test, it'll be considered laughable that anyone ever thought it required *intelligence* to chat with a human. In a sense, this has already happened. Quite a few people were convinced by Eliza - but you can tell from just looking at the code that it's not intelligent.

    The same thing is happening with animals. We used to define humans as the only tool-using animals - then they found birds breaking open clamshells by dropping rocks on them. The definition changed to humans as the only tool *making* animals...then they found chimpanzees who strip the leaves from twigs before they poke them into anthills. So then it was 'self recognition' - that also failed with dolphins who can recognise themselves in a mirror. Now it's some other thing. Animals will never be labelled intelligent" because the definition of intelligence is that thing that humans have but animals do not.

    I predict that we'll never have AI. That isn't a failure of the work - it's in the nature of our definition of Intelligence as "that thing that humans have that animals and machines don't have".

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  34. Competence vs Performance by clasher · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't know if it is the case in this instance but the Turing Test rubs some the wrong way because it is a pretty lousy test for intelligence. The turing test measures the performance of something not it's competence.

    What we see is what the computer does and not what goes on behind the scenes, which many people believe is important in positing intelligence in a agent. One of the major problems with behaviorism was that it initially took into account only how an animal performed and not what it was thinking. Sure the rat could learn the maze when it is rewarded for running thorught it, but it could also learn the maze (competence) by being pulled through it on a little cart or when it was completely sated. The performance of something may be important in judging its intelligence but it is far from the only factor. Imaginge a person in a paralyzed state, they have the competance but lack the ability to performance.

    Like I said this may not be the issue as discussed in the article, but it is one caveat to the Turing Test.

    1. Re:Competence vs Performance by vrmlguy · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The turing test measures the performance of something not it's competence. [...] Imaginge a person in a paralyzed state, they have the competance but lack the ability to performance.

      I'm not sure what you mean. The two sentences that I quoted seem to indicate that Christopher Reeves couldn't participate in a Turing Test. Turing's insight was that performance is the only measure that we have of intellegence. His paper actually included several hypothetical ways by which performance isn't the only measure. For example, parapsychological effects: you look at a Rhine Card and ask the testee what you're looking at. If humans consistently guess better (or worse!) than computers, then the Turing Test is invalid (and a whole new field of scientific study has opened up).

      On the other hand, you could ask Chris Reeve (or a computer) to play chess with you. Either could say, "Sorry, I don't have a board handy, how about tic-tac-toe?"

      As you read this, are you evaluating my competance or my performance? How do you know that I'm not really a bot from Cycorp?

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
  35. Why the Turing Test is a waste of time by profBill · · Score: 4, Informative
    The following is an excerpt from an article by Drew McDermott about the "Red Herring Test". I always thought it pointed out quite well why the Turing Test seems like such a waste of time.
    What confuses most people is that they mistake Turing's attempt to avoid the question for an attempt to answer it. But anyone who believes that Turing's test is an interesting test for intelligence is guilty of behaviorism, not a crime in itself, but shameful in anyone who believes in cognitive science, the antithesis of behaviorism. Of course, it is probably true that a system that could fool a trained panel of experts into believing it intelligent would in fact be intelligent, but it is blatant waste of experts' time to have them sit on such panels, when they should be inquiring about how minds actually work.

    Compare the following hypothetical case: Human explorers land on a planet whose inhabitants are somewhat technologically backward. The locals are impressed by human gadgets, especially radio. They decide to try and understand it, so they rustle up some philosophers in order first to arrive at a criterion for something's being a radio. Their first cut is that a radio is a device that emits sounds whenever similar sounds are made in the control room of the earthlings' spaceship. But others object that this criterion does not rule out ordinary telephony, so the criterion is modified. Perhaps they arrive at something like, ``A radio is a device that emits sounds similar to those made in the earthlings' spaceship while suspended from the ceiling by a nonconducting string.''

    This is all amusing, but a waste of time if the aliens really want to understand radio. No one needs an ironclad behavioral criterion for ``radiohood,'' assuming that there are plenty of indisputably genuine radios around to study. Such a study might eventually lead to a deeper definition of radio as ``A receiver of signals encoded as modulated electromagnetic waves,'' but by the time the definition was available it would be relatively unimportant, when stacked up against the theory of electromagnetism.

    Similarly with intelligence. If we ever have a theory that explains it, we will no longer care about distinguishing bogus understanding from the real thing. We will have a rich theory based on concepts we can now barely imagine, just as radio is based on something as unlikely as invisible electromagnetic waves.

  36. Re:The most interesting thing... by master_p · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think we are going to have AI when we realize that it is not only the presence of a clever algorithm that makes up AI, it is also the motivation. In other words, a human being is motivated to develop intelligence in order to survive, something that is not required from a computer.

    Another big difference is that modern computers are much less powerful than the brain: the human brain's memory is equivalent to many million petabytes of memory, and the searching mechanism of the brain is straightforward pattern matching that works like a neural network (and can identify and discard many images in parallel). Our poor computers have only some terrabytes of memory and they are much slower in reading that memory in an efficient way.

    Animals have the best cameras for eyes and the best microphones for ears, all made by mother nature!!! And these inputs are designed to stimulate and filter responses in a sophisticated non-digital way, rather than simply accumulate the data and convert them to binary information.

    With all these big differences, please don't expect AI to surface in the near feature. It could surface though if we realized the differences of human vs machine and start building machines with human-like attributes (for example neural-network memory, and with motives to learn and expand its knowledge base, with cameras and ears, with feelings).

  37. Re:The most interesting thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You can find plenty of twenty to thirty year old textbooks that tell you that playing chess at grand master level would be a sign of computer intelligence - now we know that all it takes are some clever heuristics and a lot of CPU power.

    But this is the key. Not that Deep Junior can take Kasparov to a draw, but the amount of work it has to do to do it. It analyzes millions, if not billions of moves, probably several plies deep on each one, and then can just barely keep up with Kasparov, who is analyzing dozens of moves at the most.

    If you are a chess player, try this experiment:

    Find a chess program where you can set the search depth to a maximum amount. Then see how long it takes you to beat it at one ply, two plies, three plies and so on.

    If you barely know the rules, you will find that it doesn't even get challenging until about three plies. But think about that: to beat you, an average patzer (just like me), it has to analyze thousands of moves a turn. You are probably only analyzing two or three.

    So this is why people don't consider todays chess programs intelligent the same way they consider humans intelligent: they are brute forcing a solution where true intelligence wouldn't need to.

    This is why people generally don't consider AI as having progressed. Most of these solutions rely on brute force.

  38. Artifical "Human" Intelligence? by GuyMannDude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I predict that we'll never have AI. That isn't a failure of the work - it's in the nature of our definition of Intelligence as "that thing that humans have that animals and machines don't have".

    In general I agree with the points you make -- especially that the problem with developing A.I. is that it is a moving target. As you point out, lots of things that used to be holy grails of A.I. have been achieved and dismissed. Remember the article on slashdot awhile back about the walking robot that "figured out" how to escape from the lab? Is that A.I.? Probably not, but it does make you stop and go "Wow, that's kind of neat!"

    What I don't agree with in your post is how to seem to reserve the word "intelligence" for human beings. I really don't think most people defines intelligence as "that thing that humans have but animals do not." I think we should consider the goal of A.I. as not trying to copy or better a human, but just successfully achieving some form of independent, creative thought probably on the level of a mammal. You use the example of chimps utilizing twigs to collect ants for eating. I think if a computer program could demonstrate tool-making and tool-using capabilities like that, it should qualify as A.I. Getting a computer to act indistguishably from a human is a pretty tough goal, but if it can demonstrate characteristics of animals with reasonable thought processes (as opposed to brute instinct), I think it would generally be hailed as a milestone in the quest for true A.I.

    GMD

  39. progress in AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think you don't know about recent successes of AI just because it is no longer a fashionable buzzword, which in part is due to the fact that AI people *stopped* promising heaven after the 80's. The excessive hype with expert systems caused a backslash -the so called "AI winter"- and researchers learned their lesson. Today, AI focuses on slowly extending the frontiers of solvable problems, with a much more rigorous experimental evaluation of algorithms. Much less hype, but impressive progress.

    People often assume that computer intelligence must work the same way as human intelligence, but there's no reason why it should. Indeed nobody expects a computer to do arithmetic *in the same way* as we do; we just care that its circuitry gives the correct answer, no matter how it is designed.

    Further we shouldn't expect computers to be best where humans are, or viceversa. Computers excel in (of course) calculation, and (more relevantly for this discussion) combinatorial problems which are impossible to handle for a human, whereas attempts to imitate the intelligence of a five-year old kid fail miserably (this includes many things: natural language understanding, including understanding of context, sensory -e.g. image interpretation - and motor activities, and plain old common-sense knowledge).

    Search is a central technique of artificial intelligence since its beginnings (and in any modern textbook as well). There's no point in dismissing search or heuristics as unintelligent, for two reasons: search is often the fastest way of solving problems by computer, and heuristics and related tricks may easily turn a problem from unsolvable (in reasonable time) to very easily solvable. The problem with more human-like computer chess players is simply that they perform much worse. In other words, it is often *not* intelligent for a computer to behave like a human.

    Artificial intelligence has progressed inmensely in the last decade, specially in reasoning and learning. Data-mining is simply the buzz-word for AI learning techniques applied to industry.
    As for reasoning, in a sense AI still uses 1960's techniques. This is simply because these techniques, with a number of crucial improvements, have proven the best for solving all sorts of industrial problems. Take as an example the modeling of problems as (propositional) logical formulas. There is a huge gap between solvers for this kind of problem from the early 90's and the most recent solvers. Tons of problems which were then very hard are now trivial, and not just because of hardware advances. Still, the basic search framework used by old and new solvers was defined in a still widely cited paper from 1963. Brute force, you say? Well, it is more refined than that, but in the end there's not that much difference conceptually, except that the ways to prune search trees are much more effective now. And now it is possible to control NASA space flights, or verify very large and complex hardware designs, by "just" encoding the problem in propositional logic and solving it with a generic solver. Similarly tons of applications in constraint satisfaction are making their way in industry, for all sorts of problems in production planning, scheduling, optimization, etc. These applications also use search, but are advertised by the task they solve, not as AI. But they are AI.

  40. MegaHAL by Dr_Auknix · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I used to play with megahal alot since a buddy altered it to work over IRC. You could park it, in say, #jesus and #kkk and #rap and it would "learn" from each channel, and then when you asked it things, well, I don't have to say the rest.

  41. Blond AI Test by Geekbot · · Score: 2, Funny

    To be declared intelligent the AI has to convince you through a conversation. However, in the lesser known Turing Intelligence Test Supplemental Nuances Applied Sexual Soliloquy (TITSNASS) or Blond AI test, all that is required is that the bot carry on a cybersex conversation. The number of tissues used determines how high the TITSNASS rating of the "Blond AI".

    TITSNASS is currently looking for a test group of real blond sex chatters to compare against the bots. Please email me your applications.