Internships in the Post-DotCom Era?

aetherspoon asks: "Reading the Internship at Microsoft story, I was wondering what paid jobs were actually still out there for CS majors in the industry. Coming from a CS major who has a stack of 'We're sorry, but...' letters sitting on his desk, I know that I have not had much luck in this area. Are there any places left offering good paid internships?"

Comments

well

[nomadic]

No.

Contiune your education...

[Anonymous Coward]

...instead of looking for a job right now. If you are an undergraduate, go get a Master degree. If you are holding a Master degree, go get a PHD. The time you finish your education, the economy may have recovered, and you are right there to ride the next wave.

Good luck.

Re:Contiune your education...

[Spyffe]

CS requires that people pay for software

Wrong. Computer science does not. There are plenty of computer scientists working in such fields as operating systems (Sun), networking (AT&T), and compilers (Intel) who design clever software that is then given away by their employers.

Their employers do not play the EULA game, betting on the ability of the BSA and its secret police tactics to bully the little guy into restrictive contracts. They make their profits on hardware, and the software is meant to increase the desirability of their hardware.

Other computer scientists, in the more abstract fields of nubmer theory (the NSA), and artificial intelligence (Google) have employers who profit by providing services (yes, the government is a service) based on the advanced technology computer scientists develop.

Or do you mean computer engineers? Why, I think you can't! There are programmers in all the places I mentioned above, plus those working to make e-commerce sites, business logistics solutions, etc.

To conclude this little flame, let me say that I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post.

Re:Contiune your education...

[WzDD]

I love slashdot for insular comments like this. Wait, no I don't. But I do look at it with a certain fondness.

Seriously, though. Almost 100% of the computing population run commercial closed source software on a commercial closed source operating system. They browse the Web using a closed-source browser, read email using a closed-source client, write documents with a closed-source wordprocessor. Microsoft is definitely going to lose market share to OSS, but if you and they were honest they'd admit that they never *had* that market share in the places that matter for OSS. Just look at the rise and rise of Apache, for example. You'll be hard-pressed to find Microsoft citing a potential OSS threat to their desktop environment, for example. And it's been the "year of Linux on the desktop" according to various OSS luminaries for how many years now? Perhaps four.

Even among geeks, there's a not-insignificant move to a closed-source OS - Mac OS X - simply because it's cool. What's been happening is a huge increase in support for open *standards* - HTML, XML, all the old Internet standards - because they allow interoperability.

Re:Contiune your education...

[Lodragandraoidh]

I think some folks have a misapprehension that a CS degree only equates to being a programer.

Disabuse yourself of that fallacy, and you will be set.

Case in point: Me.

I started out of college NOT AS A PROGRAMMER - but as a system administrator (I parlayed my brief experience with Unix in college into the job). Once in the position, I automated all of the tedious stuff, then set my sights on some of the other things around me. For example, the technical support folks were using paper tickets; a little database magic and some cgi scripts, and 'Voila!' - an automated ticketing system.

After that, I extended my knowledge - I learned other operating systems the company was using, and I also learned new programming languages. I also started developing my philosophy regarding programming paradigms for large projects by reading everything I could get my hands on and watching what went on with internal projects. Most importantly, I learned how to make disparate systems work together (systems integration).

Finally I got into a major project as a programer and applied and refined the lessons I had learned. Having administered operating systems and databases, I had a unique perspective many of my peers did not have. I volunteered for the difficult tasks, because I knew I would learn more by stretching myself than by sitting back and just coding by rote.

Pretty soon, I was project lead, and then a full blown senior developer. At this stage of the game I deal with technology and implementation issues at a high level; I write specifications, and either implement it (if its trivial) or oversee a vendor or internal team perform the implementation.

That is how a CS major can take you where you want to go; don't limit yourself by setting your expectations too high, or conversely, setting them too low. The biggest key is to just make yourself as valuable as possible to your company and you will get where you are going.

Re:yes

[DasBub]

I hear some positions in Iraq will be opening up real soon...

Hmm let's see

[Sparky69]

Well I've got an internship at Sun Microsystems... Actually everyone I know has an internship and they're all in CS. Companies like Qualcomm, IBM, Microsoft, man the list goes on and on. Oh yeah. I forgot I go to an "inferior" Canadian university. Sorry. U of Waterloo BTW in Canada intership's are called COOPs. Cheers, Andrew

Have you considered University IT Departments

[sotdx]

I started out as a lowly tech grunt in my University's IT department, and moved up through the ranks getting experience and skills. When I was getting closer to graduation, I was able to obtain an great internship with the IT organization. It paid incredible for a student job ($11 an hour) and gave me the freedom to experiment with technology and projects.

I'd credit the experiences I had with the University internship while I was going to school to be the reason I have a Network Administration position right now.

Re:Graduate study in Something Else

[ObviousGuy]

Also, it may be beneficial to get out of the sciences altogether and study Something Else. There's a whole world out there of other things besides computers, and you can major in some of them in college.

A coworker of mine was just saying the other day that he can't believe he wasted so much time studying CS in school. Now he's got a skillset limited to computers (he's a really good programmer), but nothing marketable outside of that. Frankly, he could have studied basket weaving in college and still learned enough to be a good programmer from on-the-job experience.

To be a programmer, you just need to get a foot in the door. That means you just have to have some exposure to programming and CS topics, not a full-blown major.

In short, study what you want, but don't expect a major to open doors for you.

McDonald's is always hiring.

[L7_]

You can be a team player. Sure its not so much as developing software, but using already integrated e-commerce software products (knowing which button is used to super-size a meal for instance). Corporate employers always look to see technical ability, ability to follow instructions, as well as being part of a successful team environment.

In other words, C.S. students are a dime a dozen, just like mcdonald's employees. What makes you stand out?

You know some math above first year calculus? You know some science above first year biology? Do you know anything besides programming? If you don't, then don't expect to get a job that any other second year CS student can get. Cause you won't get it unless you know someone (which is still the best bet for finding internships).

Re:Graduate study in Something Else

[ObviousGuy]

Currently far too many (dumb) people are trained in computer science.

There's also a problem of far too many (arrogant) people trained in computer science.

It's funny because....

[Anonymous Coward]

The "dot.com bubble burst" three years ago, now the students that went into university to study Computing Science purely because of the "get rich quick" scheme are graduating. They are having problems getting into work.

Now let's think.... 5 years ago there was maybe a tenth of the people doing CS as there are now, internships were available and reasonably well paid. Now all these companies have ten times the applicants that would originally have applied (but this time the other 9 want the money not the job).

If you were a CS company. Who would you want to hire?

Re:yes

[L7_]

actually, if youre willing to travel to Tennessee the Oak Ridge National Laboratory has a nice summer internship program for nuclear engineers and other scientists. The web site is at www.orau.gov/orise/educ.htm.


I think that you need to be a US citizen to get it though, but if you're not and still studying Nuclear Engineering, you must be a terrorist.

Re:Graduate study in Something Else

[kisrael]

Frankly, he could have studied basket weaving in college and still learned enough to be a good programmer from on-the-job experience.

God, I think I've worked with too many people like this. Or maybe there's some other reason, but there are so many bad programmers out there. About 1 in 3 I'd say tend to be sharp...the rest are the reason why Offshore coders in India look so good. They tend to be even less than 1 in 3 sharp, but at least they're cheap.

Re:Graduate study in Something Else

[ObviousGuy]

There are many opportunities out there, if you know where to look.

Not all companies are Microsoft, Oracle, and AOL. Walmart needs computer programmers. So does McDonalds and Holiday Inn.

Spamming Monster.com isn't guaranteed to find you a job anywhere. That's where everyone is already looking, the odds are just not in your favor.

Look off the beaten path and you will find a lot of opportunities that may end up being a lot more beneficial skill-wise and responsibility-wise in the long run than anything you'd do at a bigger company.

PhD not a good way to get a job

[flyguy]

Getting a pHD in cs is a good way to become over qualified and have a harder time getting a job than you did before you had the PHD, unless you were previously devoid of skill and unable to get a job in the non-academic world and are happy pigion holeing yourself into an academic niche.

Instead I would suggest doing a degree in a different field, hopefully a complementary field and moving yourself into a niche which few other people are qualified to compete within. For example, Bioinformatics. You combine a degree in say genetics and computer science and you've opened a lot more doors than if you had just completed a masters or phd in cs.

Re:PhD not a good way to get a job

[JRHelgeson]

A PhD in Computer Science is the most worthless degree if you are planning to get a job in the IT industry. The only thing a PhD is good for in the computer industry is doing research and being a professor at a university.

My brother got his PhD from the University of Minnesota. He is now a professor at Tulane University in New Orleans. He teaches 3 classes a year, and the remainder of his time is performing research and writing papers. He does get paid very handsomely for it, I must say.

Outside of Academia, a PhD in Computer Science is not a very valuable degree.

However,
I once had an employee that had dual masters degrees in Geology and Information Systems. He got his degree in Geology, then realized that he couldn't feed a family as a geologist (unless he wanted to feed them rocks) So he got his MIS degree. He couldn't find a job ANYWHERE (so I hired him :)).

It wasn't long before I got him in touch with someone from Texaco Oil Corp. where we got him an interview and now he is working for Texaco, making 6 figures, helping them develop new methods for using computers in searching and drilling for oil.

So, my advice would be that if you get a second degree, use that degree to get you into the IT industry in a particular field you're interested in.

--
"Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

Key to Finding Paying Internships: Be different

[omnipotus]

If you can differentiate yourself from the other kids in your class, you can get the internship that you want. I'm about to finish as a C.S. major from UMD (Go Terps!) and I have a terrible GPA (which is specificaly absent from my resume. I have never gotten an 'A' in a class for my major. I turn in projects late. As a student, I am a teacher's bane - talented but distracted. What am I so busy doing? Getting a head start on the industry that I want to work in. You can do this any number of ways:

• Joining your local student ACM chapter. Better yet, run for office - I know they need the person power. If it doesn't exist, charter it!
• Want to attend a technical conference? Both USENIX and the IETF have programs designed to get students involved by providing stipends. Often, these programs are applied to by few students.
• If you prefer getting involved with a .com than a .org, consider that Apple gives away about 300 scholarships to their annual develpers conference in San Jose, WWDC.
• If you are an uber programmer, perhaps you should try registering as a student or evan as a competitor or presenter at MacHack.
• The Government is always hiring, and don't let anyone tell you that you have to get a security clearance to work on something cool.
• An earlier posted mentioned that the University IT department is a good place to work, and for the most part I agree - there are few other places with the budget and deployed network size of Univsersities that will teach you as you go.

Try Dell

[One Louder]

Dell seems to be spending a lot of time advertising their intern program on television, so I'd try there.

Apparently you have to be a complete weenie, though.

Re:yes - OT-We own you.

[taliver]

Actually from what I hear. That paper you signed going in has a clause that even if you're out. You can be reactivated, and be brought back. So unless one wants to be effectively owned for the rest of their lives, no! (For those who don't see this, it's an AC that I'm answering).

I'm actually in this group as well, and honestly, if you're in the country, and you're male, you're already owned. Remeber that Selective Service card you were supposed to fill out when you turned 18? The liklihood of that being used is actually higher than the liklihood of you getting called back after you resign your commission.

Now, I'm actually in the Active Reserves, which gives me around $400/drill weekend and I get to go on all sorts of nifty trips as well. The only thing I have to fear is if we go to war, but what, I ask you, are the odds of that happening these days?