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Internships in the Post-DotCom Era?
aetherspoon asks: "Reading the Internship at Microsoft story, I was wondering what paid jobs were actually still out there for CS majors in the industry. Coming from a CS major who has a stack of 'We're sorry, but...' letters sitting on his desk, I know that I have not had much luck in this area. Are there any places left offering good paid internships?"
No.
If the people Computer Science degree have trouble finding real jobs today, I wonder what it would be with people with MIS degree.
The dotCOM market is now featured in many INFOMERCIAL.
That's a sign of the time.
Now I have to get my own mochas.
tap.tap.tap. is this thing on?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
But it wasn't paid and they didn't give you kneepads.
From what I understand, they've cancelled the program, though.
I have been pwned because my
...instead of looking for a job right now. If you are an undergraduate, go get a Master degree. If you are holding a Master degree, go get a PHD. The time you finish your education, the economy may have recovered, and you are right there to ride the next wave.
Good luck.
I am currently a college student working towards a degree in Computer Engineering. As far as internships go here, to have a chance at one you need to apply to the major companies that give the your University money, such as Wal-Mart, JB Hunt, Axciom, and some others in my school's case.
-Poo will never be unfunny.
I know plenty of students who have very nice internships that are C.S. majors? Perhaps it depends on what school you go to? In fact, I don't know of many who had decent GPAs who applied and did not get an internship.
To this end, I suggest graduate study in another field. Many graduate programs in the hard sciences (especially PhD programs in the sciences) offer good compensation packages and sometimes include low-cost housing. On top of that, you don't have to pay off your student loans for a while.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
and summer camps were hiring camp councilors. The Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marines were all looking for new recruits. Some non-profit organizations were looking for volunteers.
That's about it.
It is almost summer time, I myself am going to look for a job in construction.
I hear some positions in Iraq will be opening up real soon...
Well I've got an internship at Sun Microsystems... Actually everyone I know has an internship and they're all in CS. Companies like Qualcomm, IBM, Microsoft, man the list goes on and on. Oh yeah. I forgot I go to an "inferior" Canadian university. Sorry. U of Waterloo BTW in Canada intership's are called COOPs. Cheers, Andrew
I started out as a lowly tech grunt in my University's IT department, and moved up through the ranks getting experience and skills. When I was getting closer to graduation, I was able to obtain an great internship with the IT organization. It paid incredible for a student job ($11 an hour) and gave me the freedom to experiment with technology and projects.
I'd credit the experiences I had with the University internship while I was going to school to be the reason I have a Network Administration position right now.
You can be a team player. Sure its not so much as developing software, but using already integrated e-commerce software products (knowing which button is used to super-size a meal for instance). Corporate employers always look to see technical ability, ability to follow instructions, as well as being part of a successful team environment.
In other words, C.S. students are a dime a dozen, just like mcdonald's employees. What makes you stand out?
You know some math above first year calculus? You know some science above first year biology? Do you know anything besides programming? If you don't, then don't expect to get a job that any other second year CS student can get. Cause you won't get it unless you know someone (which is still the best bet for finding internships).
Microsoft. I thought you already knew that...
Down with Saudi Arabia!!!
The "dot.com bubble burst" three years ago, now the students that went into university to study Computing Science purely because of the "get rich quick" scheme are graduating. They are having problems getting into work.
Now let's think.... 5 years ago there was maybe a tenth of the people doing CS as there are now, internships were available and reasonably well paid. Now all these companies have ten times the applicants that would originally have applied (but this time the other 9 want the money not the job).
If you were a CS company. Who would you want to hire?
In our coop program we have found that since the big companies who used to hire the majority of our class (Nortel, Alcatel etc..) stoped posting jobs a lot of smaller companies are coming forward to fill in. I have a work term this term with a company of 13 people but I'm designing an embedded system from scratch and sticking linux on it. It's a great project but the pay isn't as high as I've had in the past. My advice for you is to check on the local start-ups in your neighbourhood. They are always looking for cheap talent. Although this being my 5th work term also helps out a lot when looking :) Startups offer great experience if you can get hired on with one. Looks great on the resume for when you want to look for a Microsoft job when you graduate.
"I believe in everything in moderation. Including moderation." -Dean DeLeo, Stone Temple Pilots
I'm a CS major, and I decided to work construction this summer rather than chase an elusive internship. The way I look at it, I'm going to have many years ahead of me where I will be spending my summers working behind a desk. So while I still have a chance, I'm going to take some time and have a job where I can work outside, hang out with my friends (who will be working at the same company), and generally relax (save for inspection days). There is something to be said for getting outside and hauling some lumber or pounding some nails. Admittedly, it is probably not something I would want to do for years and years, but for a summer it can be a pretty good time. It gives you a good sense of balance in life, something that CS majors tend to lack.
Some people like my father have scoffed at this and told me that I "need" to get an internship now or I'll get left behind. I'm sure many other CS majors here have felt the same pressure. However, I think this is when you should take a step back and look at why you got into CS in the first place. I did it because it is something I love to do; the potentially lucrative job market is an added bonus. So what if I don't get an internship and I don't make $foo money when I get a job after school? I'm confident in my abilities so that I will do well in the long run. However, as long as I make enough to live comfortably, I'm happy with that because I would much rather do CS than get a degree like Business where I really have no interest.
Don't take this as saying internships aren't important. It is definitely a good idea to go out and get some real world CS experience. (You can do this to some extent with open source projects on your own schedule.) But just remember, jobs/money are NOT the be all end all when it comes to CS or any other field. Don't forget to enjoy yourself sometimes or you will be left as one of those bitter coders getting mid-life crises in a not-so distant future.
My company hired a coop (we're a 5 person shop, so we only have one). Despite getting lots of resumes via email, I rarely read them. This one came to me from my cousin. Previous hires came from people recommended to me by people in my fraternity.
People I know that are still undergrads are mostly people from my college fraternity (i.e. they were freshman my senior year or first year out when I visited friends there). The ones getting jobs are the ones that network well. The rest are finding research jobs on campus.
The days where you float your resume and get 20 phone calls are over. Sorry.
Time to work on the people skills.
Alex
actually, if youre willing to travel to Tennessee the Oak Ridge National Laboratory has a nice summer internship program for nuclear engineers and other scientists. The web site is at www.orau.gov/orise/educ.htm.
I think that you need to be a US citizen to get it though, but if you're not and still studying Nuclear Engineering, you must be a terrorist.
If you are serious about landing a job, bashfully asking for a low-or-no paying internship position is completely worthless. In a job market like this, no manager is looking for the smooth young minds to take under their wing and mold into productive, successful workers. They are looking for the people that can get the job done, make the manager look good, and not gripe and grouse about petty issues.
The only way to crack into such a market when you are green is to really dazzle 'em with examples of sharp work and present yourself as someone pleasant to work with!
Also, never try to land a job through an HR department. If you can't get direct access to a project manager, meet someone who can. Try thinking from the perspective of a project manager: He/She wants to look good in front of the peers and boss and make sure the new hire isn't going to rub the existing team wrong and waste a lot of time with interpersonal drama to resolve.
I remember back when I was in college, I kept on getting letters from the US Navy, asking me to apply for jobs as a reactor tech on nuclear subs, so you might want to try that. (Unless you're a big fan of daylight and regular bathing...nah, this is Slashdot.) Scary thing is, I was an econ/poli sci major.
I started my CS degree shortly after the dot-com fallout going to the University of Waterloo, known for it's co-op (internship) program. Since then, I've had 5 successful co-ops, at companies like Corel, Honeywell, Environment Canada (the Canadian Environmental Service), and a university in Finland. All of them were either software development or testing, and they all paid well (enough to cover the semester's housing and tuition).
I don't have high marks, in fact, my average is in the upper 60's.
I'm not finding any shortage of work, and my university has a 97% placement rate for co-ops (all of which are paid).
Granted, my university facilitates all of the leg work in applying to and interviewing with these companies. (I don't have to go out and look for any) Althought many others do find co-ops independently without assistance from the co-op department.
But I think a big problem after the .com fallout were the people who put up this facade and were hired on, even if they didn't know a think about the job they got (Learn C++ in 24 Hours kinda folk).
.com hiring is that the majority of people who have jobs, think that only a minority of people out there know what they're actually doing.
So what I see in post
I think these days the job place and market are less forgiving to incompetence, and to that degree, don't even give people a change because of that fear.
At least that's my experience (being on the hire-er end).
Getting a pHD in cs is a good way to become over qualified and have a harder time getting a job than you did before you had the PHD, unless you were previously devoid of skill and unable to get a job in the non-academic world and are happy pigion holeing yourself into an academic niche.
Instead I would suggest doing a degree in a different field, hopefully a complementary field and moving yourself into a niche which few other people are qualified to compete within. For example, Bioinformatics. You combine a degree in say genetics and computer science and you've opened a lot more doors than if you had just completed a masters or phd in cs.
But at least Johnnie Frat Boy knows how to spell!
:-)
No, don't shoot me, this is not meant to be a flame. I actually hire interns and IT guys in my company (I am the CTO). Now put yourself in my shoes for a second. There is enough on offer. I have to hire those who show most promise. I have to defend my hires to fellow execs. If I hire someone who writes things like "easist", "acronims" and "sentince", I will be asked why I did not at least hire someone who can read and write.
I realise this sounds dismissive, and I really do not mean it to. I am just trying to impress upon you the importance of basic skills. If you cannot distinguish "sentince" from "sentence", how can I be sure you can produce functional code? These are not mere typos.
Yes, I know there is much more than spelling to a person. It's just that this is kind of a basic skill. If you can improve on it, I am sure you can compete better with Johnnie Frat Boy. And please do try to see this as a constructive suggestion - I may be shot down but felt it needed saying.
Michael
PS ATM in a sentence? OK... I'll give you two: "ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode) was not the panacea it was once thought to be to solve Internet connectivity woes". Or try "ATM (Automatic Teller Machine) technology has more than kept pace with Internet security technology and losses are minimal".
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
Also Off the Main topic, but to fill in some stuff, I thought I'd mention that I took up the Navy on it's offer.
:)
It's pretty good while you're in college-- right now they pay right around $40K/year for your last two years in school--not bad, since you have absolutely nothing ROTCish or Navyish to do for those two years (I even interned at a national lab while I was getting paid by the Navy-- hooray for double dipping.
Anyway, the job I signed on for was instructor, which meant that I taught onshore, never seeing a sub but as a tourist, for 4 years. And then I was out. If you want a military career- this is not the way to go. If you hate paperwork, this is not the way to go. If you despise bueracracies, 'the man', uniforms, power trips from idiots, or senseless rules, this is not for you.
However, it is a job, it gives you in-state tuition for whatever school you're in, it delays having to choose a real career for 4 years, and they do give a reasonable paycheck. (The instructor option is only open for technical majors, however-- otherwise you can go sub, not see the sky for 3 months at a time, go crazy, but get about a $12K signing bonus.)
I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!
"You can't dissect him, predict him, which of course means he's not a lunatic at all."
Apparently you have to be a complete weenie, though.
I get the feeling that computer science will be relegated to a tech college degree. Most work in the field is for entry level programmers and desktop support, neither which need more than a 2 year degree.
Well part of this problem is that Computer Science means different things to different people. I went to CMU, where CS is somewhat respected. My major was Information & Decision Systems, which is, for all intents and purposes the CMU equivalent of the aforementioned BCIS degree, when compared to a CMU CS degree. However, coming out of my degree, I have found that I quite easily know much more about the "science of computing" than many CS majors from less rigorous schools.
Unfortunately I think the time has come to draw the line between computer "scientists" and computer "programmers," just like there is a line between "physicists" and "engineers." It wasn't until I guess about 6 years ago that you could earn a CS degree at CMU that wasn't a double major Math/CS, and to be honest, I think thats the way it should be. Programming is an art, no doubt, but I suspect just as there are "people who speak english" and then there are "writers," there are always going to be "people who can write VB" and "people who could program in any language."
Unfortunately, at this point it time, its very hard for employers to tell who is who, and even to assess their own needs. If you were to ask any employer "do you want some IS grad who hacks VB" or "do you want a CS grad who could really write in any language," they're going to opt for the CS guy, who will subsequently be bored out of his wits writing VB code.
I suspect that soon, and by soon I mean in the next 5 years or so, a real dichotomy is going to emerge in the business world (its already there in academia) between "blue-collar programmers" and "white-collar programmers." Blue collar programming will be taught at tech schools and perhaps 4 year CS degress can refocus their energies on the "science of computing." The business side of the dot-com pipe-dream has already crashed and burned, and now unfortunately it might be time for the rank and file's dreams to meet the same fate.
This too shall pass.
You've got to suck it up and get experience somewhere. Great paying jobs aren't necessarily as good as great experience. My first job paid barely enough to live on (in Dallas) and I still say I learned more there than in the 4+ years since.
The experience pays off loads more in the long run. Trust me on this one. I make over 60k in oklahoma of all places, and with my contracts and side jobs I make over 150k combined (although i'm very lucky in my relationships).
Hard work pays off if you do what Scrooge McDuck said "Work smarter not harder!". Best lesson ever from a stupid Disney cartoon.
I am currently sitting at my desk at Sun Microsystems Labs in Mountain View California. I'm a University of Waterloo Computer Engineering Undergraduate student.
The intern positions are tough to get at these companies, but there is certainly no lack of them! And they are certainly paid. I for one am paid obscenely well for my time here in California.
In this area in general, all the big researchg outfits have large intern programs:
- Sun (both the labs and general)
- HP
- IBM
- PARC (former Xerox lab)
- Microsoft Research
The smaller companies each will hire smaller numbers of interns... maybe only one or two each, but I find most companies that have hired interns and done well by it (and most do) believe strongly in it and will be happy to look at your resume.
Make sure, beyond anything, to get your resume into the stacks of these companies. Many of them will only bring interns in during the summer with the university students on co-op, so it helps to know when to get the resume in.
People like that are no more programmers than the guys who pump gas are mechanical engineers. Programmers don't just write code, they should design code. They should resolve and reduce the complexities of the real world into an abstract form on which processes and humans can interact. Programmers should understand the beauty of abstraction, the hard realities of computation and the subtleties of resolving the two. Programmers need to more than glorified code monkeys. Unfortunately, too often, they are just that.
Of course, that's not saying that a degree in non-CS is a bad thing, far from it. But just because you know C++ syntax and some libraries doesn't make you a programmer.
EnkiduEOT
There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself
-Raymond Chandler, The Long Goodbye
We are still having interns coming to work for us every semesters and summers. Just that we are asking from the local best schools (USC, UCLA and the likes) with high CS GPA. Skills like Java/J2EE, Linux/Unix (Sun) and good working knowledge of Windows (servers) products are extremely important.
Yes, the requirements are rather high but the pay is decent: freshmen start around $15, adding about one dollar for each subsequent year; grad students start around $20, additional years adding one dollar. Add in to the fact that you can very much set your own flexible work schedule, I think it worth it.
We are (F-10) in the 310/MDR area. You just have to look up your school posting more regularly. Despite the (permanent) hiring freeze, I have seen plenty of new (intern) faces recently.
Sorry if you do not fit the requirements tho. Hard times -> plenty of resumes; we get to be picky and choosy. One just have to re-position, educate himself or herself with the skills needed by the market.
Good luck.
Actually from what I hear. That paper you signed going in has a clause that even if you're out. You can be reactivated, and be brought back. So unless one wants to be effectively owned for the rest of their lives, no! (For those who don't see this, it's an AC that I'm answering).
I'm actually in this group as well, and honestly, if you're in the country, and you're male, you're already owned. Remeber that Selective Service card you were supposed to fill out when you turned 18? The liklihood of that being used is actually higher than the liklihood of you getting called back after you resign your commission.
Now, I'm actually in the Active Reserves, which gives me around $400/drill weekend and I get to go on all sorts of nifty trips as well. The only thing I have to fear is if we go to war, but what, I ask you, are the odds of that happening these days?
I demand a million helicopters and a DOLLAR!
I'm surprised that they called you. Reactor techs on nuclear subs (or nu-cu-lar, if you're Dubya) are enlisted posts, not orficer. And the above poster was correct, it's a paperwork nightmare. And nuclear engineering types on subs have the crappiest sea-shore rotation. So, if you like wearing dungarees, getting dirty, loud working conditions, and crappy pay, hey, the Navy is looking for you!!! Oh, did I mention occupational exposure to radiation?]
Is this thing on? Hello?
I'm a sophmore cs student from nyc and a few summers ago stumbled onto an awesome and untapped source of jobs. A lot of my friends in cs do this too. Many research centers (often run by large universities) that don't have much to do with students have a huge need for non professional programmers. However, I'm not sure there are too many of these places outside large cities.
These places do not have the money to pay an adult programmer, but can afford to pay undergrads quite decently. For some reason, they also do not actively look for programmers. However, when I started targeting these places, almost all of them were initially interested and I actually ended up with a few offers. Research centers often require a miriad of small but often highly specified programs, and many researchers are desperate to be untied from the large and hugely expensive software suites they are forced to use when they only need one or two functions of these programs. (like Igor). Also, these are rare places where you get to work with very cool and not commonly seen equipment, meet tons of smart people, and are given the freedom to do your work however you see fit. (It is not likely your boss will understand c++) It is also very cool to have something like "developed a program to do real time memory testing via auditory and visual cues" on your resume before you even hit the mainstream job market.
I'm currently an undergrad student at University of Waterloo (CS), and I've had multiple offers for paid internships in the US/ Canada over the past 2 years, all of which were from pretty cool companies - a crapload of banks, Rogers Broadband, VoiceGenie, ExtendMedia, and currently RealNetworks. All of these companies had pretty decent compensation (> $20/hr), with added benefits of subsidized housing, transport, and shipping for the ones located in the US.
I don't think that's a pretty bad deal, considering current market conditions and, none of these were hard to get - the companies all come to recruit on campus, and I never actually had to go 'looking' for a 'good' internship.
So stop fighting the system. Find a niche, find some capital (small business loans, family, rich friends), and fill it. Use your computer education to supplement a career instead of beating yourself up with rejection letters in a bone dry job market. You'll be happier if you're the boss.
Jack
It's because as a student, you need to get experience AND pay the bills. I don't know about you, but I don't want to do TWO full-time jobs to get both.
Although I probably will anyway... *sigh*
Have you read the Moderation Guidelines Addendum?
You might want to consider doing one for free. I know it sucks, but it's great experience, looks great on your resume and will give you a good idea of the field you're getting into.
That's what I did last summer after many interviews, a lot of "we went with someone who had more experience" and one "we don't have room in our budget." I called the latter back and asked if they would take me on in an unpaid capacity. They agreed and it was one of the better decisions I've made. Not only did they end up paying me something at the end (not as much as I would have made with an hourly wage, but a decent amount) but I firmly believe that it was that experience that enabled me to land the job I have right now.
So if you don't have anything better to do with you summer (or whenever you're looking for an internship), consider doing one unpaid.
Check AWU about the possibilities at these facilities.
Also, check these:
Sandia
Los Alamos
Argonne
Brookhaven
Pacific Northwest
Lawrence Berkeley
Lawrence Livermore
Oak Ridge
And there are other other national labs that I did not mention.
I only saw one other mention about government jobs. No one wants to work for the government because they don't think they get paid enough. I think some people are glossing over the most important aspect of it, you get paid. You have a job.
The National Security Agency is always taking interns/coops. I've applied there myself and feel confident that I will get it (I should know in about 3-4 days). Yeah, you need a security clearance. Big deal, it's not that bad. If you've kept your nose clean in your life (don't do drugs for christ's sake, and yes, marijuana counts) you will have no problem passing any of their tests (assuming you're a stable person).
The government has opportunities everywhere, you just have to give up the stigma of 'working for the man' and get on with it. Government jobs have great benefits too.
In case you're interested: here is a link to the NSA coop program. The CIA also hires people.
You will be able to have real world experience, have a valuable security clearance, and most likely a job working there when you graduate.
Sure, this is the 300th post or something, but in case the author reads them all:
Fairchild Semiconductor is an excellant employer of interns.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
The company I work for has a great paid internship program. I work for an oil company. The only problem is that you will not be doing any software development. We are an IT shop where DATA is the product and our customers are the employees in the company. So you're looking at Data Warehousing, writing queries, etc. Being a CS major myself, this can be a turn off, however being employed is pretty important and nice. Anyways: From talking to some of the previous interns, Im guessing that the interns are paid between $15-$25/hr and I believe they even pay part of rent. The company I work for seeks CS majors, but only top students. For more information, look here:
http://www.aeraenergy.com/InternProgram/
Enjoy.
Browncow.
Well, I think its important to recognize that there is a large difference between the type of work one would typically do with a CS degree and the work of a system administrator. In fact, most colleges offer a CS degree and an IT degree. As it has been explained to me, CS is more the study of how to create software to solve a problem while IT is more of using current software to fit a company's needs while also dealing with management and other people. IT professionals very much need to be people persons, while CS professionals can deal more with theory and creating software.
SIGFAULT
"oh well, at least counterstrike still loves me."
.
Yeah, the interviewer tossed me out of the building when he discovered my CS degree actually referred to 4 solid years playing CounterStrike
Well, I got the last laugh when I hacked the company's game server, and wiped the floor with that bozo. Yeah, like he's going to dare enter that gameroom now. ha!
- 85% of employers surveyed in July 2001 prefer "a job candidate with great reviews from his/her internship supervisor, but who had only mediocre grades, to a candidate with outstanding grades but no experience." (source: Information Week)
- "Having an internship or co-op on your resume will earn an 8.9% larger starting salary over a new hire with no experience." (source: www.jobweb.com)
- "College graduates with less than one year of [internship] experience will have approximately three times as many jobs to choose from than college graduates without experience. College graduates with more than one year of work experience will have fifteen times more opportunities." (source: CareerBuilder Job Market Report)
So it is reasonable to expect the emergence of for-profit internship providers.(As it happens, not long ago my business plan for such a provider was circulated internally at Microsoft. I subsequently received the following e-mail from Randy Hinrichs, Manager of Microsoft Research's Learning Sciences and Technology Group:
You can see an updated, open source-friendly version of the plan here.)In the future, then, there will will be paying internships -- it's just that the interns will do the paying.
On the upside, the benefits of a really well-run, well-documented internship will outweigh the expense.
Enjoy,
Frank Ruscica :: Have Fun to Get Ready
Founder
The Opportunity Services Group
www.opportunityservices.com
It's who you know. I can't stress enough the importance of job fairs. Sure, most of the time you'll get the people who just take your resume and file it away, never to see the light of day again. However, I think you stand a much better chance of landing an internship when you meet with recruiters face-to-face as opposed to just being reduced to a GPA on a resume. Also, if you go to a school that has engineering societies... join them! I got internships and a job right out of college through my connections with an engineering society (SHPE if anyone is curious). I was a corporate liaison and often company reps would ask me for the resumes of the society members in a certain major. If you're one of those resumes, then you'll be 1 of 20 as opposed to 1 of 1000+ applicants which gives you much better odds of being noticed. I know you might feel dirty doing the whole networking, business card, laughing at all the stupid jokes scene, but it's how you get a spot at the corporate poker table. Skill may get you the job, but connections get you the interview.
"Oh dear, she's stuck in an infinite loop and he's an idiot" -Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama)
Ah, this old argument. "You're just buying friends." Allow me to tell you a little about my house's budget for the year:
$1000 for rush - having events to get people in the door. Larger houses spend even more on this, so it's difficult not to be drowned out by the biggest houses on campus.
$1000 for pledge education - not only are there parties and road trips for bonding purposes, but we prefer to teach our pledges instead of haze them.
$1500 for formal - we get together to have a nice night out with our girlfriends.
$2500 for social - those parties that everyone likes to go to (whether they're greek or not?) They're not cheap. Someone has to pay for them.
$750 for philanthropy - not only do we hold events to raise money for various charities, but we pay to participate in events held by other houses for the same purpose.
Once those expenses are out of the way, you still have to maintain the house, keep in touch with our alumni, and other tasks.
So, by the end of it, there's no money left to "buy friends." Paying your fraternity dues is about pooling your resources in order to accomplish your goals as a group.