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U.S. Jobs Jumping Ship
An anonymous reader writes "As painful as February's big job cuts were, they're even more painful since many of those jobs are never coming back as U.S. employers in a wide range of industries move more and more jobs overseas. CNN has the story." Salon has a good piece detailing how job requirements are changing, asking more and more for less and less pay.
At our company we now have multiple college graduates working for under $10/hour. Of course we're in a small town. But yeesh!
Sure fire ways to make a living in the USA, providing the trend continues:
Farm. People have to eat. If americans can't afford the food, someone else can, there's always a buyer, if you can afford to set the right price. (Sound unethical? You're probably not a republican then)
Become an entertainer (something about americans dancing and singing on a stage works for extracting money from the pockets of everyone else in the world. As of yet americans still make what the world wants to buy in terms of image.)
Own an overseas company, employing locals for a pittance, and selling goods and services to anyone, anywhere who can still afford them. China looks like a good place to sell, it's got one of the few growing economies.
Go into politics. If americans can't afford your price for selling out your country, someone, somewhere will and hopefully you know how to keep your payments away from prying eyes, not that the public really cares anymore, but they might.
Cynical? Why not. You can't expect the current administration or house to insist upon a tariff on imported services, can you?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I have no doubt that some have gone overseas, but without a doubt, the worst problem is the economy. No company is going to hire anyone until this mess with Iraq starts to straigten out. Once that happens though, look for mega job listings to start appearing. There has to be a lot of pent up demand out there considering that everyone has been stalled for a couple of years now.
Humanity is so ridiculous in its endless tendency to linearly extend every trend into the infinite future. As a "Daily Show" the other night humored: If an infant keeps its rate of growth for several decades, soon it will be the size of giant office buildings and killing us all! Of course we know that isn't the case, just as we know that the economy shifts and sways, and companies try endless tactics to seem to be doing something. In 3 years this will all seem idiotic, but that won't stop the idiots from doing the same thing during the next cyclic downswing.
Yup, it's a sad sad day when college graduates in America are losing jobs to those overseas (particularly India). I was doing Tech Support for Dell for awhile (I know, I know....it paid) and during that time they started outsourcing most of their tech support and customer service to call centers in India. I can't even count how many customers I talked to that were hung up on, or couldn't understand the person, etc etc etc. It might have saved them a few bucks, but it goes to show these companies don't really care about their customers.
Other than the U.S. most other first world countries have had terrible economnic conditions in the recent past (Japan, most of Europe). Often times this is attributed to their more socialist government. I wonder if their closer proximity to cheap labor has been a larger factor, and if this is true, if this predicts the future of the U.S. economy as physical distances become less important.
Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
Not that veering to the "right" too much doesn't cause catastrophe with monopolies and such, but we really have made doing business in this country incredibly difficult (especially small businesses). Haven't we asked for this?
There was a senator or rep who was a staunch Democrat who, when he retired, tried to start a small business (a hotel I think). His business floundered because of many of the extremely harsh policies that he himself had pushed. Also, former NYC mayor Ed Koch (of People's Court fame) began his term quite social minded, but he lamented that his ideas for transportation of homeless actually costed more than just paying for cab rides for every homeless person (there's more to it than this, my memory is just a bit shaky).
Basically, I feel the pendulum has swung too far to the right perhaps, and overseas business has gotten too attractive, since we've essentially pushed these businesses into a corner with our well-intentioned programs.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
The CNN article makes an intersting point good point
In the 1990s, it seemed all one had to do to buy a ticket to Easy Street was learn a programming language or how to manage corporate computer networks.
Okay, so I've learned a dozen ways to shoot my foot clean off -- and now this article asserts that my skills are just as easily found abroad as here locally.
But is that really what is happening. When I read the above quote, I wonder, how many QUALITY programmers are losing their jobs to concerns overseas?
Similarly, if this is the case, okay, so now what? The computers didn't disappear, nor is the need for software going to go away.
Do we work for less? Do we (dare I say it) unionize? Pass laws? Comments, please.
--- have you healed your church website?
IMO, it's somewhat hypocritical to defend the U.S. as the great bastion of free-market capitalism, and then get extremely protectionistic when the jobs move somewhere cheaper.
That's the problem with a global economy --- it's global. If the standard of living in the U.S. can't be sustained because people elsewhere are willing to work for cheaper, then the standard of living will have to adjust. Of course, you know as well as I do that there's no way any politician will ever let the standard of living ever decrease, so we have protectionistic measures like repeatedly trying to save the steel industry, when market logic dictates that it should be mostly moving to Korea.
To end this comment on a bright note (hey, it's Friday, let's be optimistic about the future.), this could all be obviated by the march of technology. I'm betting on life being good once nanotechnology comes of age. Yeah, it's a while off, but then, today seemed a while off to the people of 1903.
Karma: pi (Mostly due to circular reasoning in posts).
This is hardly a revelation. When the supply of some good (labor) exceeds demand (jobs), the price of the good (labor) falls. Big shock. Having been a programmer in the 1980s, I well remember when you were lucky to get $25,000 for a programming job. When the number of jobs increases (when we stop insisting the world admire our mighty power and get back to real work), labor prices will rise again.
Christ, if you think this is bad, thank God that we weren't alive during the Great Depression. That didn't sink us, and this won't either. Also, for those who argue that this time it's different because of globalization: the world was more globalized in 1910 than it is now, because of European colonialism.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I asked a reasonably senior guy at Intel if they were hiring. His reply: "Sure we are hiring ... in China and India."
Hey, aren't we being selfish?
Think of the people in India that just had their standard of living raised. Who is to say that their living standard is less important than your living standard?
We complain and complain about the Recording Industry backing up a "inferior business model".
So are we! Its time we found something else that we can do better/different.
It makes me laugh how the Americans - the inhabitants of a state founded on the revolutionary concept of liberty - are so phased by the idea of free trade and are always quick to see a conspiracy when lower skilled jobs (yes, folks, that's what they are) go abroad.
Having spent days hacking around with some perl code that my (non-IT literate) colleagues think is just magic, I know that this sort of thing is really not very high skill at all and so of course graduates in Bangalore could do it for less money.
In the mean time we ought to use our greater capital stock and education systems to learn even higher skills and stay ahead in the game.
All of this reminds me of Schumpeter's famous phrase "creative destruction". What has happened is that there was an enormous swell in the demand curve for IT workers in the late nineties with the tech boom. This drove wages up, as the supply curve lagged. As new people entered the field, the supply curve slid out to accomodate demand.
Here's where it always sucks for those workers. The demand curve contracted sharply after the tech bubble burst, so the wages dropped correspondingly. This of course is what every sector (except for the government sector, unfortunately) faces from time to time. A micro-example is the set of jobs created for building a house. Suddenly the house is finished and demand falls to zero.
So what's the long term prognosis? Unless some new wave emerges that causes another correspondingly large shift in demand for tech workers, wages will be where they are, and probably fall further with international competition.
The bright side of all of this, and it's hard for us tech workers to see, is that everyone else gets cheap software and information services. This is the way the system works. The alternative is to chase demand curve shifts and change careers every ten years or so, which is probably not such a bad idea from a spiritual point of view anyhow.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
I had a real problem with a Dell box I got a few months ago - the sound card just didn't work under Win2k (it only supported WinXP drivers... whole 'nother story).
Trying to make anyone on their phone or email support understand was equivalent to banging my head against the wall, at least when they had a foreign accent. It went like this:
ME: " I have this problem"
DELL: "Here's a suggestion that is irrelevant to your problem" - something along the lines of, put in your System Recover disk.
ME: "No, you don't understand...blah blah blah"
DELL: "Here's the same suggestion, verbatim, that is still irrelevant to your problem"
ME: "You're not listening!"
DELL: *Repeats same scripted response again*
Finally, after doing this about 6 times, they finally broke down and handed me to an American supervisor. Once they did:
ME: "I have a problem..."
DELL: " OK, we have this solution, OK?"
And with that, a new Linux/Win2k compatible sound card was sent out. What should have taken 10 minutes instead ate up a full day. I guess a full day of 800 phone charges is cheaper than 10 minutes of American salary.
The lesson I learned: it may be cheaper to buy a Dell than building it yourself, but it is just not worth the aggro. Which means that I'd buy or recommend Dell if the support were actually an added value, and probably pay more than they're charging now.
Yeah, I'd say that this free trade thing ain't working out.
I agree. I just want to add that the trend's been here for a while, it's just now hitting a larger mass of people and multiple industries. Manufacturing (textiles) has been moving overseas for over a decade. NAFTA helped speed this up with Mexico. Now that mass amounts of our industrial work is done overseas it's moving into more diverse fields, like telephone support and software development. The more expensive we make it to do business here, and the more we lock employers into taking care of employees for their lifetime (unions), the more companies will look overseas.
Developers: We can use your help.
We have a team in India doing basic database monitoring and support (mostly to back me up, as I'm a finite resource).
They are cheap - about $1000 US a month for their services.
From their resumes and other clients, you would think that they are well trained and efficient.
Unfort, I don't find their work that valuable.
First, while their English is good, it's not good enough. The communication barrier has caused several problems, resulting in database downtime that need not have occurred.
Second, while they advertise themselves as DBAs, there is only one that I marginally trust. We have had to create detailed instructions for doing simple things. They take days to do what I can do in hours, and often fail at what I consider simple, bread-and-butter DBA tasks.
Third, we don't have much of a stick over their head. Should they walk off with our data, our schema, our code, or just trash our site, there is little if anything we could actually do.
An article (recently posted on Slashdot) mentioned that the larger the company, the more likely they were to move IT jobs overseas. In the long run, this is a counter-productive move. Firing a bunch of people will lower the demand for your goods and services; the unemployed don't have the money to spend. And you create a group of seriously pissed off people with time on their hands.
The Salon story mentioned a website called a site where people post these ridiculous jobs. Perhaps someone will come with a site that will list companies that have fired local workers to ship the jobs overseas.
The whole thing makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about a new career. It's kind of scarey to wonder if tech jobs will become as scarce as those well paying manufacturing jobs of the 50's and 60's (you know, the ones that are now in China, Taiwan, and Mexico).
Let's see...
In the early 70's, you could:
Buy an average car for 1/4 to 1/3 of a yearly average household income.
Buy a house for 2x-5x of a yearly average household income.
Today, its more like:
Buy an average car for 1/2 or more of a yearly average household income.
Houses start at 5x yearly average household income.
But here's the kicker: in the early 70's, there was almost always ONE breadwinner making up the average household income. Now, its almost always TWO.
When I was a kid living in Brooklyn, taxi drivers routinely owned homes and cars, and mom didn't work. Today, Mom and Dad work in some service drone job, and can't make ends meet. And that was true 10 and 20 years ago.
Things have gotten a lot worse.
Perhaps they are sending jobs overseas because they won't have to deal with unions. Remember not too long ago, the dock workers went on strike (at the cost of US economy) despite the fact that they were already highest paid blue collar works and management promised job security. How about the mechanics of United Airlines? UA was facing bankruptcy and they still refused a paycut. RTD (Mass transit system for Denver metro area) bus drivers are threatening to go on a strike lately. RTD already were being subsidized by the cities even when the economy was good because they weren't making any money. Now dispite the fact that the cities are hurting for money and jobs are scarce, they want a raise?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
gosh, in hindsight, I cant believe I could have ever doubted the government's plan to increase the number of H1B's to such a ridiculously high number.
now I see that they truly did have our best interests in mind. Employers say "the industry no longer pays salaries like that" when they mean "there are hungry immigrants that are willing to do your job for half your salary"
a big "cheers" to the US government.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
Let's face it. Times are tough. Budgets and earnings aren't what it used to be. We need to find ways to save money and tigthen our belts.
In short, we've got to outsource upper management to off-shore countries.
There are plenty of well trained and highly educated people in foreign countries that can do excellent upper-management work: CEOs, CFOs, vice presidents... and they'll do them for pennies on the dollar of the exhorbatent prices we pay for CEOs now. 40 million dollar golden parachute? No more!
- The quality of the work being done by Indian (or whatever) programmers (or whatever) varies wildly. Some of it is good, a lot if it is not.
- In my experience, companies like Amex who outsourced their entire IT needs to IBM India (yes, IBM India) and let loose hundreds of employees are now rehiring those same employees (mostly analysts and PMs) through third-tier consulting firms at a much lower cost. So they get the quality they need (because they can't get it from Indians) but they save a bundle of money. It's not uncommon to find a project manager at Amex directing 15 indians that used to be manager or director of so-and-so two years ago. This is (I think) more about deflating the job market than shipping jobs to other countries.
- The perennial "web programmer" and "web designer" and so on is out of work because there is no more market for them. There are no more dotcoms hiring teams of 20 people to "design" three web pages at ~$60K+ per year. No way. But software developers and architects and so on with solid experience and real skills are still finding jobs. The subject of the Salon article sounds to me more like one of those foofy "html programmers" or equivalent than anything else.
The dotcom boom created thousands of jobs that were filled by people with 6 months of experience and a "computer degree" from a community college or Devry. Sorry, but those are gone. No more demand. These people should go back to what they were doing before the went into "computers" to make "big bucks".It sounds callous, but it's true.
I would be willing to do that for 15k a year!
%100 dead serious!
I am unemployed and I am about to apply for a 7.50/hr job at OfficeMax stocking shelve's. I moved back in with my parents because I can no longer afford rent. It would look so good on my resume to do any tech work that I would be willing to work for the same pay as a merchandiser at a store.
This is the reason why many jobs are going to India. You guys are not willing to work for this price range. Believe it or not an Indian could do that job for 5k a year! No shit!
20k a year is expensive in the eyes of CIO's. If we volunteer to work for 15k then they might not ship us off to India. If we demand 40k then you can kiss your career goodbye.
http://saveie6.com/
I wrote an article about this phenomenon a while back (when I was facing the same unrealistic job requirements).
My favorite anecdote was a job ad requiring 5 years experience writing technical manuals for military vehicles. People who write such job ads end up paying more than they should because of this "illusion of scarcity."
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
In the socio- and anthropological fields it is pretty much accepted that the United States is a Third World country that basically won the lottery. I won't provide statistics, but check out (a) Literacy rates (b) Infant mortality (c) Homicide rates (d) % of population below the poverty line, and (e) the gap between the rich and poor. A large middle class running in hamster wheels does not a First World country make. Also: Labor unions are a reaction against the insane exploitation of the 19th century. If the need wasn't there, they would not have been formed, 'cause Americans hate that shit. And in pure opinion, I believe it has less to do with Democratic myopism and more to do with some extremely rich people pulling the ladder up after themselves. Figuratively speaking.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
I can't believe that everyone didn't see this situation coming. It is the logical path of a world controlled by corporations in an emerging global economic system.
For the corporations the equation is always simple and, for the most part, always the same. The path that reaps the greatest profit is the path to follow. Period, end of story, no appeals allowed.
Out sourcing work to cheap labor increases profits so it will continue. There are three ways that jobs may start coming back to the US.
1. We lower our wages to compete. (Not a good option)
2. The legal system does something that impedes jobs from being outsourced. (Not a good option)
3. It becomes more expensive to outsource than to keep jobs in the US. (The best option)
Option number 3 will slowly occur as the living standard rises in the countries where the work is currently being outsourced. As the workers wages rise and come in line with the wages in the US costs of producing goods in those countries will rise.
This could take a long time, however, and one of the big questions is: When the cost of production comes to parity where will the factories that produce the goods be located? We may be loosing jobs for a lot longer if there is no incentive to move the jobs back to the US. The startup expense is one thing that is keeping some factories in the United States but once moved it will be the same startup expense that will keep them out.
It will be interesting to see how politicians deal with the effects of selling out the American people to the corporations.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
This is affecting a lot more than just "web designers" who had no skills beyond that covered in "MS Frontpage for Dummies."
My extended circle of friends and I all have solid educations and lots of experience covering pretty much every aspect of IT that you can name, but no potential employer will give us the time of day. It's not a matter of demanding unreasonable salaries either - if we call their bluff and say that we're willing to accept a low salary just to pay the mortgage, we're told that we're out of consideration since the boss is sure that within a month the economic fairies will come around and we'll bolt for a well-paying job at a new startup.
Finally, my connections on "the other side of the fence" have told me that the ridiculous requirements on these lists are there for a reason - the powers that be want to give the appearance of looking for an employee, but they have no intention of actually hiring anyone. The way they hid this is by creating lists that no single person could possibly satisfy, then offering a wage far below what such a mythical person would actually accept.
If somebody actually had all of that experience and was desperate enough to accept the salary, some overlooked requirement would be discovered. E.g., for a while a popular overlooked requirement was that you had to speak fluent Japanese - and have spent several years in that country.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I've had my share of ups and downs in this industry. I started my career in the Savings & Loan industry -- and after that industry went bust in the early 80s, I had to find a new place to make a buck. A similar collapse hit the "web industry" over the last five years (lots of unjustified hype, bad management, etc.) -- and while I wasn't writing web pages or Flash animations, I was affected nonetheless. I worked as a development director/lead technologist at a couple small businesses that killed themselves by leaving reliable industries to "webify" their product. Both companies are gone, but I'm still here.
There's nothing unique to the computer industry when it comes to bust-boom cycles. It happens all the time in other industries. My wife began her working life 25 years ago as a geological drafter -- you know, with pens, ink, fancy templates. The collapse of the oil and minerals industry did more to end her career than any new reliance on computer-aided drafting. Is she crying in her soup? Heck no -- she worked for various social agencies, often for low wages or free, and built herself a new career in disaster recovery and education. Businesses may come and go, but there'll always be disasters. ;)
Right now, I'm doing contract work, writing a book, and placing myself for a "coming thing" that may or not be big in our industry. My wife has a nice, stable job; our kids learned long ago that their Mom and I don't listen to "gimme, gimme." It's sometimes difficult, but we keep surviving. Never surrender, never give up -- a good philosophy from a very funny movie.
All about me
Dude, you need to move out of brooklyn. Or the valley. Or wherever it is you're living that costs are that high. And stop looking at BMWs.
A nice, new Honda Accord is less than 1/4 the national average household income. A house in a less inflated real-estate market should work well for you also. $120K for 4 bedrooms here in Indiana, and interest rates are rock-bottom.
For the record, the average household income in 2002 for the whole US was $58K. Your numbers for the value of stuff in the 70s are still true today. 1/3 of $58K is a little over $19K. Plenty for a new car. Houses start at only a little more than 1x that here! Lots of small houses in the $85-$90K range. Huge houses (by valley/nyc standards) are available for $150K.
First Ammendment - Why is this even an argument? Republicans tend to want to censor speech more than the dems, so the dems win this one.
Gun Laws - ridiculous. 2nd ammendment is there in the CONSTITUTION. Republicans win this one.
4th Ammendment - Republicans want to search you, your house, your moms house etc in the name of the "war on drugs" and now the "war on terror" Dems aren't much fuckin' better. But dems are a little looser so dems win this one.
Abortion - Well in reality making it illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, it simply makes it punishable. so even if you are against abortion, you have to realize outlawing it is futile. Dems win this one. Women truly have a choice in reality. A choice between a safe & legal abortion or no abortion is better than a choice between a dangerous illegal abortion or no abortion. Even God would agree with this logic.
Corporate welfare vs worker rights/ Labor. Until I own a corporation, I have to consider myself a worker. Dems win this one. How anyone can vote for something that will reduce their wages, reduce their health care, make them work longer hours all so that some asshole in a board room can export thier job to india to make even more money is beyond me. WAKE THE FUCK UP. How 'bout a little self preservation!!!! Unless you own a corporation, you need to see the light!!!
Jails versus Education: hmm, spend money on educating our children so that they will be prepared to lead our country when they inherit it, or cut spending in schools and parks & rec programs only to eventually spend more money on jails to house our misguided uneducated forgotten youth? tough one here. gee, what should we do ?
Democrats win. Republicans are greedy assholes who can afford private shools for their children. What about the rest of the nations. Those punk asses that are not getting education and resort to crime will hopefully rob your house you greedy fuckheads. (unfortunately you rich bastards live ina gated community, so they'll rob my house and the house of other working men and women, which is unfortunate because it's YOUR POLICY that destroyed thier chances of making it in this world).
Corporate friendly env. policy versus environmental friendly environmental policy. Hmm, in my short life time I've seen 200-500% growth in my home town. Land Development is BIG BUSINESS. It's sad to see them rape the land to build a shitload of cheap ass houses all crammed in tight next to eachother. If those greedy fucks would build one or two less houses per project then all the families that moved in would get yards and a little bit of privacy. Instead they are living in a future ghetto that frankly looked better as natural land. That's the friendliest of the land uses. Chemical plants, manufacturing plants, refineries, junk yards. SHEESH!!! This whole country will be one paved piece of shit in less than 50 years. It's fine if you own a big ass ranch in texas, who cares if your refinery pollutes the fuck out of some poor neighborhood in the wrong side of town. Maybe it will kill those "niggas" before you have to arrest them after they drop out of that shitty high school you wouldn't approve the tax dollars to fix up because you wanted some tax cuts to afford to pay off the crooked politician who allowed the refinery. FUCK!!! Democrats win this one too.
You see, aside from the gun thing, republican policy benefits only a small minority of wealthy assholes. The rest of us get screwed every which way in a increasingly painful cycle. We lose our jobs so our kids go to cheap schools which don't get good funding because money is going to corporations so our kids poor and pissed off do drugs or get pregnant or drop out or graduate and go to college despite the odds, then they lose their jobs and their kids go to crap schools, etc. etc. over and over again while more and more of us become poor and a few fortunate a-holes get richer and richer.
well, it can only go on for so long before we unite and kill you you fuckin rich assholes
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
Predicted long ago by the cantankerous Edward Yourdon. Ed was complaining about sloppy US software engineering as well as cheap, competent international labor. Ed wrote a sequel during the dot.com boom rebutting his earlier thesis, but the earlier ideas seem more accurate. Ed's numerous books start with some current social commentary, then repeat his personal brand of software engineering.
I know I may get modded down for this, but I'll stand up for this particular point. If one looks back at all of the technological innovation in the past 50 years, the vast majority of it has come from within the United States. Telecom, semiconductors, software, you name it - if it was commercially viable, that commercial viability pretty much originated here. Now that the expertise is being outsourced, what will sustain further development of it here?
If you look at all the new grads coming out, they have been told time and again that technology is their ticket to success. They've been pushed through universities like cattle, but they never expected the slaughterhouse to be right at the exit. Now that there's a glut, economics is dictating huge competition driving down salaries. Tech suddenly isn't as sexy any more, and people are flocking to jobs at more traditional companies. Tech companies keep outsourcing more and more.
But let's move this one step further. People coming into university see this. They stop coming in. Innovation and research starts slowing down. Nanotech and biotech research vaporizes because the capital base that is partly cross-subsidizing it vaporizes slowly. There is no killer application driving the tech economy. We can do with what we already have.
What we may end up with is the majority of our technological manufacturing and knowledge base outside the United States. The United States (and, to a large extent, the rest of the Western world) could become dependent on foreign technology the same way it is dependent on foreign oil. Yes, many of these jobs being outsourced are staying within the foreign subsidiaries US companies, but the bulk of the knowledge is not on US soil. Those workers can walk away at any time without recourse for the US companies.
My point is that there are very serious implications for everyone's life in general. If the majority of the expertise and manufacturing ends up outsourced to what are effectively third world countries, we could be subjected to embargoes by cartels in the same way OPEC has power today. It could even impact national security, since overall research into technology could stagnate and the pool of available scientists and engineers dwindles.
If you think it can't happen, think again. It already has in large part. If not for cooperative trade agreements, many of the bulk goods coming into the United States would disappear overnight, from Tommy jeans to Sony TVs. This means that there may be greater reliance on the US military to protect us. Unfortunately, many of these countries possess big weapons that they didn't have 50 years ago. The US won't be able to push them around like they have already, and this will cause a loss of control.
So what can we do about this? We need to vigorously publicize the nightmare stories of outsourcing. We need to show homegrown successes. We need to get these people waking up before we end up hanging ourselves by our own rope. We need to prove that we are better than those working in third world countries. We need to show what made the United States a great country - hard work, perserverance, and a good brain.
OR
We had better give up now and accept a much lower standard of living, and all of the shock it will create. It will be either one scenario or the other. But not both.
Since the government started granting charters for corporations being a public good? Since businesses get many tax benefits that individuals don't get and cry about "lost jobs" any time anyone talks about getting rid of them? Since our tax dollars pay for the promotion of their products to overseas markets? Since we send our sons and daughters overseas to protect their economic interests in other countries?
Perhaps they don't owe me a job, but they sure as hell owe some people in this country jobs for everything that we provide to them.
That is all.
Actually thats wrong, the US is uncompetitive in steel because our steel mills use much older technology and they produce types of steel whose demand has fallen. Also, the european steel industry was distroyed by WWII and rebuilt just when new technologies came online. US steel companies lagged behind the trend, and most of these older american steel companies have been uncompetitive for that very reason. If you want to get on the EU about subsidies then lets talk about farming, which is what the EU subsidizes most heavily. They have the highest farm subsidies in the world, which has the effect of driving down the price for everyone else. The US recently increased their farm disaster aid but is still not as high as the EU, but they are getting close to Canadian levels now.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
So I guess now you can work at a 7-11 and make more money within 2 years than you can with a 4 year degree in computer science? Plus the payback of the student loans. Even if you make more in the long run the payback will take another 5-10 years. I am not sure that we will have any programming work in US by then...go into a trade while you are young and you still can.
Open source development is my way of competing with the low-cost programmers in India...
actually, I think alot of systems and systems integration will go offshore too.
There have been other U.S. industries that have been moved offshore permanently....the steel industry & heavy tool & die, for instance, is but a shell of its former self here (my dad's industry)
What're the next Big Things? Healthcare, biotech, nanotech, alternative energy, security....plenty of things to keep a geek happy, but first our employment recruiting process needs an overhaul...we geeks can learn new things, and don't want to be doing the same thing for 10+ years. Hopefully HR & recruiters will sprout a brain stem in this matter soon, as there will be new kinds of jobs, and NO ONE will have 5+ years experience doing them.
I'm getting tired of this whole "This is good because it will improve global economy, so adapt or die." crowd.
:)
This will NOT improve global economy, this will improve local economy of OTHER countries. Do you think India is going to stop taxing American imports just because a very, VERY small minority of the population is getting paid well by third world standards? Are they going to start outsourcing their jobs back into the US? I doubt it. So corporations make some money from cheap labor, because the country they outsourced to doesn't have labor laws, the outsourced country is only slightly better off, and we have Americans who can't find work to feed their own families. I fully admit I CAN'T compete with an 8 year old chinese boy in a sweatshop. I would never WANT to compete for that job, and no one should have to live with that kind of job, just to survive. If you want to rememdy the global economy, human rights MUST come first, as money is just a measurement of a human time.
Also, as an American, I have given my governemnt certain rights over me, so that they can work in good faith toward my best interest and the best interests of the American people, not so that they can make the world a better place. I could give less of a shit if my job supports an Indian Family who were previously impoverished, if now MY family is impoverished.
If employers are allowed to ship our jobs off to foreign countries with no penalty, rather than hire us to produce their product/service, then I should be able to ship in products and service from foreign nations without penalty or tarrif.
So explain to me how it is a fair playing field when corporations can undercut salary expenses by shipping jobs to foreign countries, while still being protected from Industry in those foreign countries underselling the same product/service over here?
It also undercuts traditional American values. We are beggining to no longer be the land of oppurtunity. If Americans can't get jobs, aliens can't either. So instead of a bright, well trained Indian worker coming over here to have a high standard of living, he has to stay in his home country, getting paid next to nothing and still living in third world conditions.
And to all the +5 Informatives spouting "Americans think just because they are American and have an education they have the right to a high standard of living and a decent job.", all I have to say is, You are god damn right we do. My father, grandfather, great grandfather, etc.. fought to give me that right, and I would fight to give my kids the same right. Why should I have to lower my standard of living so others can raise theirs? It's not like we've always been on top in the global economy, we made it there, and we made it there for ourselves, not for others, although we are gracious in letting others join in. Why should we sacrafice our high standard of living instead of foreigners sacraficing their nationality? If you want what we got, then you can come to America, but America should NEVER come to you.
I know, I know, I'm rambling in my digression. I do tend to get upset when I see non-Americans blaming the US for whatever is wrong with their countries. (ie. chinese bitching about US tax imports instead of 0 chinese labor laws).
I see a few -1 Flaimbaits coming, but oh well, this is how I feel
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
The great depression occurred, IN PART, because worker productivity increased (e.g. more cars and washing machines) but wages did not increase sufficiently. After some time, everyone (OK, many people) had many "things" and a lot of debt. Companies could not sell their new products in sufficient quantities and started having trouble.
If too many US jobs go overseas, something similar might possibly happen. Economics "says" that if too few people can afford to buy your products, you may go out of business. If it happens to too many companies, the "economy" starts going downhill. Eventually, the accumulated capital in the US may be depleted and companies who moved jobs overseas will have no customers.
"Here's how it breaks down: They are just as good as you, and work just as hard, for a fraction of what you want to get paid.
No. Here's how it breaks down: They aren't protected by labor laws and work twice as hard for a fraction of a fraction what I HAVE to get paid. We have minimum wage in this country to protect people from working for $1 a day, a majority of the countries being outsourced to don't.
"You are not obligated to live in the US. Companies are not obligated to hire US based employees. "
No, but I am obligated to pay an import tax on foreign products to protect the same companies that are shipping jobs offshore. If they can ship off jobs so cheap, I should be able to import goods/services just as cheap. Why is it that a coproration should enjoy protection that the people of the nation supporting it don't receive?
"If you don't like it, well, shut up because you can't change it. It's called economics, and even if you want something else to be true, it isn't going to happen."
That was a pretty stupid statement. Yes, we CAN do something about it. We can elect officials into office who support an export tax on offshore work. and It's not economics, it's politics. Why should they be able to sell my job to foreigners for cheap, when I can't buy their product from foreigners for cheap?
"Why do people continue to bitch about this? You are over-capitalized, and are obsolete. Find another profession."
Again.. stupid. So if Uganda starts instituting slavery, and forcing slaves to do tech support, all paid tech support around the world becomes over-capatalized and obsolete? Find another profession where?
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
i live in Sri Lanka and work for the webdev section of a british dotcom. at the moment the company has 20 webdev people in the UK and 4 in SL (the rest of the team are support staff and grafx ppls), but according to the ceo they are thinking of downgrading the entire uk structure and hiring more people here in SL.
my point is here... by UK standards they are paying us peanuts!! i get paid less than 7% of what the job i do would cost if it were being done by a brit. (trust me, i checked the numbers, a dev guy would get UKP2,000 there i get the equivalent of UKP150)
but this amount lets me make about 10x of minimum wage here which is a decent amount.
but there are downsides to this.
- MOST ASIANS ARE DRONES!!! if you want them to do a piece of work and keep doing it they are perfect. but our society and education system which puts more weight on conformity and herd-following (and no i DO NOT mean chasing a bunch of cows around 8-) ) means that if you want to do something innovative here you got to find those exceptional types who can think and improvise. and those ones are already in the US on their H1B
- most people in asia don't speak english all that well. this leads to confusion and problems in communications with the westerners
i was hired because i am one of those few nonconformists who decided to come back to my country (went to uni in OKC, USA, saw the dot bomb about to drop and buggered off, also my parents run a moderately successful company here), i can think on my feet and i am am bilingual (i speak both languages well enough to pass for a native, in fact when i was in the US i frequently was)..i see my friends trying to make a living in the US and i feel sorry for them (degree holding CS guys stacking shelves in wally world...) personally i would love to get them down here where the cost of living is low, and if you know how to manipulate the system (which, believe me i do) you can live and work. sure you'll miss your mega malls, and seeing the latest movies as they come out, no mtn dew, no game arcades and no DSL.. but we got great weather, cheap housing (by us standards anyway) and beaches...
personally i would LOVE to have a few slashdotters come join me here, and i am already running a dotcom that could use some help (so its not making money atm but i'm working on that part)
i guess the point i am trying to make is this. the US has been training its people for freedom and creativity, the east for drones. put the two together and you get a potent mix. we could use some creative thinkers here, you could do with some drones there.
anyone wanna come mix it up??
Suchetha
learn from yesterday, plan for tomorrow, party tonight
or one out of three ain't bad
I'm really amazed at the number of people on all sides of the political spectrum who can't figure out what's going on around them. Foriegn outsourcing is not about corporate survival except in companies with a historic record of mismanagement. Let's say you're making millions of units of almost any mass market item a year. The difference between the cost of doing R&D here and in India spread over X-million units is fairly trivial. A recent article quotes a CEO as saying that he expects a problem with Indian competition 10 years from now, but this is saving him money now... what's implied is that 10 years from now will be someone else's problem.
This is about notching up earnings in a down economy so CEOs can make the profit targets which will enable their next batch of stock options. It's the same sort of thing that has produced Enron-style shell games to inflate reported profits.
Like just about everything else that's been going on in the last few years at the large corporate level, it's about short-term maximation of profits. Not for the stockholders, for the CEOs themselves. The stockholders aren't going to know when to dump their stock to get maximum value for it. The CEOs don't have the slightest interest in their employeess, the health of the nation or the communities in which they're doing business, profit for the stockholders or building good companies anymore. "The commons" is just something to privatise a chunk of and strip-mine that chunk until it's worthless.
This is hardly surprising. When one's main form of compensation is based on meeting quarterly profit or stock price targets, one doesn't want to invest in long-term R&D or employees or anything that might conceivably interfere with making the next batch of stock options kick in. Doing anything interesting and creative that doesn't show an immediate return is the sort of thing that makes investment analysts who generally don't understand what the companies that they advise about do real unhappy. Make them unhappy and the stock price drops. The stock one previously got in compensation drops in value... along with the CEO's personal net worth.
Why hasn't private industry built a space infrastructure capable of supporting things like a powersat network supplying enough energy to make Middle East oil permanently obsolete? In general, the present corporate business model can't support major projects that would take 10 years to provide a return on investment. A typical Fortune 500 CEO isn't going to start a project that's going to do nothing for him but make a successor look real good.
The funniest part about this is that the CEOs doing this appear to be under the impression that India is just another bunch of burbs whose residents talk funny, have an interesting ethnic cuisine and work real cheap.
[Note 1] They are normally on the edge of nuclear war with their Muslim neighbor, Pakistan, mainly over religious hostility. The dominant religious grouping (Hindus) is calling for the expulsion of Muslims. Poor Muslims are being physically pushed into Bangladesh.
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:08:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "IntellNet"
Subject: News Flash: Ten killed as bomb rips rail coach in Bombay
Ten people were killed and 75 hurt yesterday when a bomb blew up on a train packed with homebound commuters in Bombay, the deadliest in a spate of blasts in India's financial capital in recent months.
Note 1 - to read this kind of happy fun news yourself, subscribe to OSINT-L, the Open Sources Intelligence mailing list.
What I describe is business as usual.
Third World generally translates as "powder keg".
However, the CEOs who are doing this know that if they lose their bet and one of their call centers disappears in a conve
Tech Public Policy stuff
Ok, this may be a stupid question, but has anybody thought of what happens to the whole "outsource to India" trend when India dukes it out with Pakistan again? Doesn't this scare companies away from making such a significant investment there?