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U.S. Jobs Jumping Ship
An anonymous reader writes "As painful as February's big job cuts were, they're even more painful since many of those jobs are never coming back as U.S. employers in a wide range of industries move more and more jobs overseas. CNN has the story." Salon has a good piece detailing how job requirements are changing, asking more and more for less and less pay.
At our company we now have multiple college graduates working for under $10/hour. Of course we're in a small town. But yeesh!
Web designer having problem finding work, people across the globe collectively let loose a gasp of surprise.
The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
Sure fire ways to make a living in the USA, providing the trend continues:
Farm. People have to eat. If americans can't afford the food, someone else can, there's always a buyer, if you can afford to set the right price. (Sound unethical? You're probably not a republican then)
Become an entertainer (something about americans dancing and singing on a stage works for extracting money from the pockets of everyone else in the world. As of yet americans still make what the world wants to buy in terms of image.)
Own an overseas company, employing locals for a pittance, and selling goods and services to anyone, anywhere who can still afford them. China looks like a good place to sell, it's got one of the few growing economies.
Go into politics. If americans can't afford your price for selling out your country, someone, somewhere will and hopefully you know how to keep your payments away from prying eyes, not that the public really cares anymore, but they might.
Cynical? Why not. You can't expect the current administration or house to insist upon a tariff on imported services, can you?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I have no doubt that some have gone overseas, but without a doubt, the worst problem is the economy. No company is going to hire anyone until this mess with Iraq starts to straigten out. Once that happens though, look for mega job listings to start appearing. There has to be a lot of pent up demand out there considering that everyone has been stalled for a couple of years now.
Humanity is so ridiculous in its endless tendency to linearly extend every trend into the infinite future. As a "Daily Show" the other night humored: If an infant keeps its rate of growth for several decades, soon it will be the size of giant office buildings and killing us all! Of course we know that isn't the case, just as we know that the economy shifts and sways, and companies try endless tactics to seem to be doing something. In 3 years this will all seem idiotic, but that won't stop the idiots from doing the same thing during the next cyclic downswing.
Yup, it's a sad sad day when college graduates in America are losing jobs to those overseas (particularly India). I was doing Tech Support for Dell for awhile (I know, I know....it paid) and during that time they started outsourcing most of their tech support and customer service to call centers in India. I can't even count how many customers I talked to that were hung up on, or couldn't understand the person, etc etc etc. It might have saved them a few bucks, but it goes to show these companies don't really care about their customers.
Other than the U.S. most other first world countries have had terrible economnic conditions in the recent past (Japan, most of Europe). Often times this is attributed to their more socialist government. I wonder if their closer proximity to cheap labor has been a larger factor, and if this is true, if this predicts the future of the U.S. economy as physical distances become less important.
Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
Not that veering to the "right" too much doesn't cause catastrophe with monopolies and such, but we really have made doing business in this country incredibly difficult (especially small businesses). Haven't we asked for this?
There was a senator or rep who was a staunch Democrat who, when he retired, tried to start a small business (a hotel I think). His business floundered because of many of the extremely harsh policies that he himself had pushed. Also, former NYC mayor Ed Koch (of People's Court fame) began his term quite social minded, but he lamented that his ideas for transportation of homeless actually costed more than just paying for cab rides for every homeless person (there's more to it than this, my memory is just a bit shaky).
Basically, I feel the pendulum has swung too far to the right perhaps, and overseas business has gotten too attractive, since we've essentially pushed these businesses into a corner with our well-intentioned programs.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
The CNN article makes an intersting point good point
In the 1990s, it seemed all one had to do to buy a ticket to Easy Street was learn a programming language or how to manage corporate computer networks.
Okay, so I've learned a dozen ways to shoot my foot clean off -- and now this article asserts that my skills are just as easily found abroad as here locally.
But is that really what is happening. When I read the above quote, I wonder, how many QUALITY programmers are losing their jobs to concerns overseas?
Similarly, if this is the case, okay, so now what? The computers didn't disappear, nor is the need for software going to go away.
Do we work for less? Do we (dare I say it) unionize? Pass laws? Comments, please.
--- have you healed your church website?
IMO, it's somewhat hypocritical to defend the U.S. as the great bastion of free-market capitalism, and then get extremely protectionistic when the jobs move somewhere cheaper.
That's the problem with a global economy --- it's global. If the standard of living in the U.S. can't be sustained because people elsewhere are willing to work for cheaper, then the standard of living will have to adjust. Of course, you know as well as I do that there's no way any politician will ever let the standard of living ever decrease, so we have protectionistic measures like repeatedly trying to save the steel industry, when market logic dictates that it should be mostly moving to Korea.
To end this comment on a bright note (hey, it's Friday, let's be optimistic about the future.), this could all be obviated by the march of technology. I'm betting on life being good once nanotechnology comes of age. Yeah, it's a while off, but then, today seemed a while off to the people of 1903.
Karma: pi (Mostly due to circular reasoning in posts).
can you buy RAM with food stamps?
This is hardly a revelation. When the supply of some good (labor) exceeds demand (jobs), the price of the good (labor) falls. Big shock. Having been a programmer in the 1980s, I well remember when you were lucky to get $25,000 for a programming job. When the number of jobs increases (when we stop insisting the world admire our mighty power and get back to real work), labor prices will rise again.
Christ, if you think this is bad, thank God that we weren't alive during the Great Depression. That didn't sink us, and this won't either. Also, for those who argue that this time it's different because of globalization: the world was more globalized in 1910 than it is now, because of European colonialism.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
... the Japanese already took all of our jobs in the 80s!
Oh, wait...
my religion lies somewhere between buddhism and super monkey ball - pamphlet?
I asked a reasonably senior guy at Intel if they were hiring. His reply: "Sure we are hiring ... in China and India."
Is today just a dip that will go away? I think so.
Hey, aren't we being selfish?
Think of the people in India that just had their standard of living raised. Who is to say that their living standard is less important than your living standard?
We complain and complain about the Recording Industry backing up a "inferior business model".
So are we! Its time we found something else that we can do better/different.
It makes me laugh how the Americans - the inhabitants of a state founded on the revolutionary concept of liberty - are so phased by the idea of free trade and are always quick to see a conspiracy when lower skilled jobs (yes, folks, that's what they are) go abroad.
Having spent days hacking around with some perl code that my (non-IT literate) colleagues think is just magic, I know that this sort of thing is really not very high skill at all and so of course graduates in Bangalore could do it for less money.
In the mean time we ought to use our greater capital stock and education systems to learn even higher skills and stay ahead in the game.
All of this reminds me of Schumpeter's famous phrase "creative destruction". What has happened is that there was an enormous swell in the demand curve for IT workers in the late nineties with the tech boom. This drove wages up, as the supply curve lagged. As new people entered the field, the supply curve slid out to accomodate demand.
Here's where it always sucks for those workers. The demand curve contracted sharply after the tech bubble burst, so the wages dropped correspondingly. This of course is what every sector (except for the government sector, unfortunately) faces from time to time. A micro-example is the set of jobs created for building a house. Suddenly the house is finished and demand falls to zero.
So what's the long term prognosis? Unless some new wave emerges that causes another correspondingly large shift in demand for tech workers, wages will be where they are, and probably fall further with international competition.
The bright side of all of this, and it's hard for us tech workers to see, is that everyone else gets cheap software and information services. This is the way the system works. The alternative is to chase demand curve shifts and change careers every ten years or so, which is probably not such a bad idea from a spiritual point of view anyhow.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
I had a real problem with a Dell box I got a few months ago - the sound card just didn't work under Win2k (it only supported WinXP drivers... whole 'nother story).
Trying to make anyone on their phone or email support understand was equivalent to banging my head against the wall, at least when they had a foreign accent. It went like this:
ME: " I have this problem"
DELL: "Here's a suggestion that is irrelevant to your problem" - something along the lines of, put in your System Recover disk.
ME: "No, you don't understand...blah blah blah"
DELL: "Here's the same suggestion, verbatim, that is still irrelevant to your problem"
ME: "You're not listening!"
DELL: *Repeats same scripted response again*
Finally, after doing this about 6 times, they finally broke down and handed me to an American supervisor. Once they did:
ME: "I have a problem..."
DELL: " OK, we have this solution, OK?"
And with that, a new Linux/Win2k compatible sound card was sent out. What should have taken 10 minutes instead ate up a full day. I guess a full day of 800 phone charges is cheaper than 10 minutes of American salary.
The lesson I learned: it may be cheaper to buy a Dell than building it yourself, but it is just not worth the aggro. Which means that I'd buy or recommend Dell if the support were actually an added value, and probably pay more than they're charging now.
Yeah, I'd say that this free trade thing ain't working out.
I read through the Salon article and noticed that all of the people complaining about jobs had ridden the technology crest (typically of dot.coms) and are now stuck in a trough. I'm not sure if this is wholly a sign of a weak economy as much as a sign of how the value of certain job skills become wildly inflated then normalize.
There have been nearly twenty years of back to back innovations in computer technology that have created whole industires, including
-Personal Computers
-Client Server Computing
-GUI
-The World Wide Web
As each of these technologies took off, people stood to make large sums of money supporting/developing them. Businesses started, merged and were acquired by larger businesses. As the technology matures and supply for expertise catches up with demand, the sums become relatively smaller. The last twenty years of Information Technology have seen one innovation after another. As much as there are a few new technologies on the horizon, I'm not sure the next twenty years will be as active as the last twenty years.
Sorry, but there is no free trade going on here.
We're dealing with countries that have no regulations about the health and well being of employees.
We're dealing with countries that have no regulations about the environment.
We're dealing with countries where the economies are still centrally planned enough such that the cost of labor doesn't rise with demand.
When there is truly a level playing field, sign me up. But stop tooting about how the siphoning off of jobs is somehow related to the holy grail of Free Trade.
I agree. I just want to add that the trend's been here for a while, it's just now hitting a larger mass of people and multiple industries. Manufacturing (textiles) has been moving overseas for over a decade. NAFTA helped speed this up with Mexico. Now that mass amounts of our industrial work is done overseas it's moving into more diverse fields, like telephone support and software development. The more expensive we make it to do business here, and the more we lock employers into taking care of employees for their lifetime (unions), the more companies will look overseas.
Developers: We can use your help.
We have a team in India doing basic database monitoring and support (mostly to back me up, as I'm a finite resource).
They are cheap - about $1000 US a month for their services.
From their resumes and other clients, you would think that they are well trained and efficient.
Unfort, I don't find their work that valuable.
First, while their English is good, it's not good enough. The communication barrier has caused several problems, resulting in database downtime that need not have occurred.
Second, while they advertise themselves as DBAs, there is only one that I marginally trust. We have had to create detailed instructions for doing simple things. They take days to do what I can do in hours, and often fail at what I consider simple, bread-and-butter DBA tasks.
Third, we don't have much of a stick over their head. Should they walk off with our data, our schema, our code, or just trash our site, there is little if anything we could actually do.
An article (recently posted on Slashdot) mentioned that the larger the company, the more likely they were to move IT jobs overseas. In the long run, this is a counter-productive move. Firing a bunch of people will lower the demand for your goods and services; the unemployed don't have the money to spend. And you create a group of seriously pissed off people with time on their hands.
The Salon story mentioned a website called a site where people post these ridiculous jobs. Perhaps someone will come with a site that will list companies that have fired local workers to ship the jobs overseas.
The whole thing makes me wonder if it's time to start thinking about a new career. It's kind of scarey to wonder if tech jobs will become as scarce as those well paying manufacturing jobs of the 50's and 60's (you know, the ones that are now in China, Taiwan, and Mexico).
The US military has called up some 150,000 reservists in the last several months. Presumably most of these people had civilian jobs before being called up, and most of their employers would need to fill their shoes with temporary workers. I'm just guessing, but I'd think that every ten reservists pulled out of the economy would open up at least five temporary jobs.
These overall job losses are happening despite a probable 75,000 job openings. Eeek.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
The trouble was, most of the advertised positions required prospective employees to have a skill set that rivaled Superman's
.NET, and they did not do very well. Thus, perhaps we need to now request 12 years of Java and .NET. Yeah, that ought to do it."
The trick is bullshitting. Nobody really has all those skills they request. However, bullshitting just keeps inflating the requirements. For example, HR might think, "Well the last person [claimed to] have 8 years of Java and
There is almost no way that companies can verify that sombody has all 15 skills listed (I just got rejected from one the other day because I only had 13 out of 15). The only person who could probably check is the person who *left* the positition they are trying to fill, especially in a smaller company.
Bad decade to be in I.T. Time for a liberal arts degree instead?
Table-ized A.I.
Let's see...
In the early 70's, you could:
Buy an average car for 1/4 to 1/3 of a yearly average household income.
Buy a house for 2x-5x of a yearly average household income.
Today, its more like:
Buy an average car for 1/2 or more of a yearly average household income.
Houses start at 5x yearly average household income.
But here's the kicker: in the early 70's, there was almost always ONE breadwinner making up the average household income. Now, its almost always TWO.
When I was a kid living in Brooklyn, taxi drivers routinely owned homes and cars, and mom didn't work. Today, Mom and Dad work in some service drone job, and can't make ends meet. And that was true 10 and 20 years ago.
Things have gotten a lot worse.
There are several problems here. One of which is the cheapness of labor overseas. Being one of the privileged few who have witnessed the glory that is Indian programming I think I can safely say that we are in no danger of having talented programmers jobless due to this fact.
You get what you pay for. Most of these programming jobs going overseas for half the price are being completed with what can be only described as half an ass. Every example (with few exceptions) of these "discount" programming firms code I have seen is horrendous. I would wager that 90% of these cheap programming firms output pure crap.
Seriously. I have heard of programs coming back from India (and other places) that have pages upon pages of mere variable syncing (Output = Out_put, Output = Out-Put, Output = OutputA, ect...) and other programming horrors.
Another problem is merely the overflow of programmers. Programming in itself is a grunt job. Peon work if you will. The reason it was so highly regarded before is because people who could program were rare. Now they are a dime a dozen. A great analogy is the car mechanic in how there was an overflow of labor force. However, good programmers just like good mechanics will always find work. Everyone needs computers and everyone needs cars.
Just my opinions.
-Purpling
Perhaps they are sending jobs overseas because they won't have to deal with unions. Remember not too long ago, the dock workers went on strike (at the cost of US economy) despite the fact that they were already highest paid blue collar works and management promised job security. How about the mechanics of United Airlines? UA was facing bankruptcy and they still refused a paycut. RTD (Mass transit system for Denver metro area) bus drivers are threatening to go on a strike lately. RTD already were being subsidized by the cities even when the economy was good because they weren't making any money. Now dispite the fact that the cities are hurting for money and jobs are scarce, they want a raise?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
gosh, in hindsight, I cant believe I could have ever doubted the government's plan to increase the number of H1B's to such a ridiculously high number.
now I see that they truly did have our best interests in mind. Employers say "the industry no longer pays salaries like that" when they mean "there are hungry immigrants that are willing to do your job for half your salary"
a big "cheers" to the US government.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
Let's face it. Times are tough. Budgets and earnings aren't what it used to be. We need to find ways to save money and tigthen our belts.
In short, we've got to outsource upper management to off-shore countries.
There are plenty of well trained and highly educated people in foreign countries that can do excellent upper-management work: CEOs, CFOs, vice presidents... and they'll do them for pennies on the dollar of the exhorbatent prices we pay for CEOs now. 40 million dollar golden parachute? No more!
When your skill sets consist of things that most 14 year olds do for fun, then yeah, you are going to have a tough time finding a job. Industry has less of a need and more numbers of web developers, so it is not surprising. What do you do? If you can, go back to school, get certified in Cisco (or anything that companies find useful these days)...make yourself more marketable by having skills that aren't already mastered by uneducated teens. We all got spoiled when the tech industry exploded. People doing very little, easy work got rich. Now we have to earn that pay check. So work hard and good luck out there.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
Let me say first that I'm posting this as an AC, not because I'm hiding from what I'm about to say, but because there are people in my company who know my Slashdot nick and will probably read this.
I work for a split nationality company based in the US and the UK. Recently we have been hiring Indians as contractors to add to our permanent staff. We also laid off a lot of US coders at the same time. The reason? The Indians are better. Pure and simple. They come from a background of getting things done. The US coders preferred to have have meetings about meetings and in the end produced over-engineered bloatware. The Indians would have produced the software for beta testing before the US staff had finished their multiple rounds of meetings.
It is important to note that I'm not attacking the individual prowess of the coders themselves, more the working culture they are used to. It's a management driven culture with too much beaurocracy and red tape and not enough flexibility. Most of the junior coders ambition was to get into management and earn themselves more money, not to enjoy the challenge of coding in the first place. Indian coders are a breath of fresh air in comparison. They enjoy the challenge and are driven by knowledge, not money and power.
- The quality of the work being done by Indian (or whatever) programmers (or whatever) varies wildly. Some of it is good, a lot if it is not.
- In my experience, companies like Amex who outsourced their entire IT needs to IBM India (yes, IBM India) and let loose hundreds of employees are now rehiring those same employees (mostly analysts and PMs) through third-tier consulting firms at a much lower cost. So they get the quality they need (because they can't get it from Indians) but they save a bundle of money. It's not uncommon to find a project manager at Amex directing 15 indians that used to be manager or director of so-and-so two years ago. This is (I think) more about deflating the job market than shipping jobs to other countries.
- The perennial "web programmer" and "web designer" and so on is out of work because there is no more market for them. There are no more dotcoms hiring teams of 20 people to "design" three web pages at ~$60K+ per year. No way. But software developers and architects and so on with solid experience and real skills are still finding jobs. The subject of the Salon article sounds to me more like one of those foofy "html programmers" or equivalent than anything else.
The dotcom boom created thousands of jobs that were filled by people with 6 months of experience and a "computer degree" from a community college or Devry. Sorry, but those are gone. No more demand. These people should go back to what they were doing before the went into "computers" to make "big bucks".It sounds callous, but it's true.
Oh yeah, well India and China will never be able to make *and* deliver a pizza in under 30 minutes, so my job is safe.
I think Dell support is just awful all-around. My last run-in with their tech support required talking to 12 different people and almost 20 phone calls. More than half sounded like American english speakers, and some of the helpful ones did not. I don't think the outsourcing is hurting them-- I think a lack of commitment to quality, training, and infrastructure is hurting them.
These things jumped out at me:
1. Their order tracking system is so unreliable that they are willing to assume (with no data in their system) that you placed an order for something, and it's just magically lost data.
2. Their pricing system does not allow them to see the sale prices offered on the web site.
3. They were unable to re-place a botched order at the price it was ordered at, and had to resort to issuing a credit to my card attached to an old order to make up the price difference!
4. There is no consistency in the abilities the reps have. Some could change prices. Some could place orders. Some could change past orders. Most couldn't do any, and nobody could do it all.
In short, I don't think it's any sort of "American tech support is better than Indian" argument. It's just that Dell sucks.
The reason "this free trade thing ain't working out" is that we don't have free trade. If things were truly open, do you really think labor in other countries would be so much cheaper? Things will even out in time. Our grandkids may even have a realistic world economy, where the value of labor doesn't fluctuate by factors of 100 based on where you live. But I'm not holding my breath-- this stuff moves slowly. Really slowly. This kind of outsourcing is better for the world in the long run, even if it sucks for our job market short-term.
I would be willing to do that for 15k a year!
%100 dead serious!
I am unemployed and I am about to apply for a 7.50/hr job at OfficeMax stocking shelve's. I moved back in with my parents because I can no longer afford rent. It would look so good on my resume to do any tech work that I would be willing to work for the same pay as a merchandiser at a store.
This is the reason why many jobs are going to India. You guys are not willing to work for this price range. Believe it or not an Indian could do that job for 5k a year! No shit!
20k a year is expensive in the eyes of CIO's. If we volunteer to work for 15k then they might not ship us off to India. If we demand 40k then you can kiss your career goodbye.
http://saveie6.com/
I wrote an article about this phenomenon a while back (when I was facing the same unrealistic job requirements).
My favorite anecdote was a job ad requiring 5 years experience writing technical manuals for military vehicles. People who write such job ads end up paying more than they should because of this "illusion of scarcity."
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
This really sounds like the business equivalent of a pyramid scam.
The motivation behind cutting costs in things like IT is so that the business as a whole (and particularly the execs) can have more money.
However, in order to *make* that money, customers need to be able to afford the product. If no one is making a decent salary (by which I mean at least $40k for a household), no one is going to be able to afford the products at their current prices. The only alternative will be to cut the selling price, which eliminates the original reason for the outsourcing. Either that or continue the pyramid and find an even cheaper country to do the work, and temporarily make money off of today's India and China.
I am also curious as to the long-term results of basically removing increasingly skilled jobs from western countries. It's not like we can *all* be fast food cooks.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
I'm sure I'll get flamed by the libertarian free-market fanatics for posting this, but this is the truth and it needs to be heard.
Ernest Partridge: 'Dear CEO: Is this really what you want?'
By Ernest Partridge, The Crisis Papers [crisispapers.org]
An open letter to the Chief Executive Officers of the Fortune 500 companies, and of the major commercial media.
Dear CEO,
Congratulations! You have won, decisively and overwhelmingly.
Your favored politicians and political party are now in control of all three branches of the United States government. Your political and economic ideologies, preached virtually without rebuttal in your media, have been enacted by law, executive order and judicial decree. And those ideologies are destined to be solidified as federal judges who endorse these ideologies come to dominate the federal judiciary.
As a result of your victory, the Congress of the United States now follows the dictates of its corporate "sponsors," and is thus no longer responsive to the wishes and interests of its constituents. The Federal regulatory agencies the EPA, the FCC, the SEC, the FDA, etc. have become the captives, and virtual subsidiaries, of the industries that they were intended to regulate.
Thanks to "your" Administration and Congress, and the unchallenged political message of "your" media, the fortunate wealthy few, like yourself, are the beneficiaries of "tax reform" legislation which accelerates the flow of national wealth from the vast majority of our population which produces that wealth, to those of you who own and control that wealth. That same tax policy is producing enormous deficits in the federal budget and an increase in the national debt that will likely bankrupt the Social Security and Medicare trust funds, and burden our children and grandchildren essentially forever. But, of course, none of that directly affects you and yours.
All in all, you have received from the incumbent Administration and Congress, an overwhelmingly favorable return on your investment in campaign funds.
However, I must wonder if you have carefully assessed the larger return on this investment, the full consequences of your complete political victory.
If you do, I suspect that you may discover that yours has been a pyrrhic victory. You might, on reflection, decide that you do not really want the prize that you have won. You may in fact have reaped a whirlwind so dreadful that you may wish, while there is still time, to make corrections or even, dare I say, reparations.
One might urge you to reassess your "victory" and your continuing course of political action on grounds of morality, of religion, or of political tradition. Instead, I would ask you to assess the current political condition in the United States from the perspective of that central principle of the dominant economic theory: the principle of self-interest.
From the perspective of self-interest alone, I would submit that all that you have won may be much less than meets the eye, and that this accomplishment might even contains the seeds of its own destruction, and of your ruin.
The Economy: At the Democratic convention of 2000, Senator Joseph Lieberman, the finest Republican mind in the Democratic Party, quoted Harry Truman: "to live like a Republican, vote like a Democrat." This is more than a partisan slogan, it is history. Mark Hulbert reports, in CBS Market Watch [smirkingchimp.com] that "since 1901, the Dow Jones Industrial Averages average annual gain, after inflation, has been nearly twice as high when a Democrat has occupied the White House."
But if the history of the last century is unconvincing, just think back to the past decade. While its true that the Bush Administration and the Republican Congress have given you
In the socio- and anthropological fields it is pretty much accepted that the United States is a Third World country that basically won the lottery. I won't provide statistics, but check out (a) Literacy rates (b) Infant mortality (c) Homicide rates (d) % of population below the poverty line, and (e) the gap between the rich and poor. A large middle class running in hamster wheels does not a First World country make. Also: Labor unions are a reaction against the insane exploitation of the 19th century. If the need wasn't there, they would not have been formed, 'cause Americans hate that shit. And in pure opinion, I believe it has less to do with Democratic myopism and more to do with some extremely rich people pulling the ladder up after themselves. Figuratively speaking.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
First a general rule, troll: When your neighbor loses a job, it's a recession. When you lose a job, it's a depresion. I don't have to lineraly extend my future more than a few months or so to know that I will soon lose my the rest of my savings, my house and hopes of a good education for my 15 month old daughter.
It's been idiotic for 30 years or so, or have you not been watching US manufacturing capacity go down the tubes? Those who do, know and those who know get hired. With all of that contraction, US industry has not done much hiring in the last 20 years. They are out of people, out of knowledge and out of luck as those who know retire. There ARE people elsewhere who HAVE been making things and they do know what they are doing. This trend will only accelerate as more and more big dumb companies decide to "outsource" their manufacturing and knowledge base. Bill Clinton's "Service Economy" was the dumbest thing ever. It depends on control of intelectual property that will increasingly be foreign. Even military dominance will fade with knowledge.
A good start to solving the problem would be to STOP TRADING WITH SLAVE ECONOMIES SUCH AS CHINA. We would have to convince our friends in Europe and elswhere that it's in their best interest to not train and fund their future masters. Otherwise, we all lose.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I can't believe that everyone didn't see this situation coming. It is the logical path of a world controlled by corporations in an emerging global economic system.
For the corporations the equation is always simple and, for the most part, always the same. The path that reaps the greatest profit is the path to follow. Period, end of story, no appeals allowed.
Out sourcing work to cheap labor increases profits so it will continue. There are three ways that jobs may start coming back to the US.
1. We lower our wages to compete. (Not a good option)
2. The legal system does something that impedes jobs from being outsourced. (Not a good option)
3. It becomes more expensive to outsource than to keep jobs in the US. (The best option)
Option number 3 will slowly occur as the living standard rises in the countries where the work is currently being outsourced. As the workers wages rise and come in line with the wages in the US costs of producing goods in those countries will rise.
This could take a long time, however, and one of the big questions is: When the cost of production comes to parity where will the factories that produce the goods be located? We may be loosing jobs for a lot longer if there is no incentive to move the jobs back to the US. The startup expense is one thing that is keeping some factories in the United States but once moved it will be the same startup expense that will keep them out.
It will be interesting to see how politicians deal with the effects of selling out the American people to the corporations.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
This is affecting a lot more than just "web designers" who had no skills beyond that covered in "MS Frontpage for Dummies."
My extended circle of friends and I all have solid educations and lots of experience covering pretty much every aspect of IT that you can name, but no potential employer will give us the time of day. It's not a matter of demanding unreasonable salaries either - if we call their bluff and say that we're willing to accept a low salary just to pay the mortgage, we're told that we're out of consideration since the boss is sure that within a month the economic fairies will come around and we'll bolt for a well-paying job at a new startup.
Finally, my connections on "the other side of the fence" have told me that the ridiculous requirements on these lists are there for a reason - the powers that be want to give the appearance of looking for an employee, but they have no intention of actually hiring anyone. The way they hid this is by creating lists that no single person could possibly satisfy, then offering a wage far below what such a mythical person would actually accept.
If somebody actually had all of that experience and was desperate enough to accept the salary, some overlooked requirement would be discovered. E.g., for a while a popular overlooked requirement was that you had to speak fluent Japanese - and have spent several years in that country.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I've had my share of ups and downs in this industry. I started my career in the Savings & Loan industry -- and after that industry went bust in the early 80s, I had to find a new place to make a buck. A similar collapse hit the "web industry" over the last five years (lots of unjustified hype, bad management, etc.) -- and while I wasn't writing web pages or Flash animations, I was affected nonetheless. I worked as a development director/lead technologist at a couple small businesses that killed themselves by leaving reliable industries to "webify" their product. Both companies are gone, but I'm still here.
There's nothing unique to the computer industry when it comes to bust-boom cycles. It happens all the time in other industries. My wife began her working life 25 years ago as a geological drafter -- you know, with pens, ink, fancy templates. The collapse of the oil and minerals industry did more to end her career than any new reliance on computer-aided drafting. Is she crying in her soup? Heck no -- she worked for various social agencies, often for low wages or free, and built herself a new career in disaster recovery and education. Businesses may come and go, but there'll always be disasters. ;)
Right now, I'm doing contract work, writing a book, and placing myself for a "coming thing" that may or not be big in our industry. My wife has a nice, stable job; our kids learned long ago that their Mom and I don't listen to "gimme, gimme." It's sometimes difficult, but we keep surviving. Never surrender, never give up -- a good philosophy from a very funny movie.
All about me
'Cmon. How can /. be so far behind on this story?
For those of us in the industry, go check out TechsUnite.org for info on what we can do to have our voices heard on this matter.
To me, its just as important to be a member of TechsUnite as it is the EFF.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
Dude, you need to move out of brooklyn. Or the valley. Or wherever it is you're living that costs are that high. And stop looking at BMWs.
A nice, new Honda Accord is less than 1/4 the national average household income. A house in a less inflated real-estate market should work well for you also. $120K for 4 bedrooms here in Indiana, and interest rates are rock-bottom.
For the record, the average household income in 2002 for the whole US was $58K. Your numbers for the value of stuff in the 70s are still true today. 1/3 of $58K is a little over $19K. Plenty for a new car. Houses start at only a little more than 1x that here! Lots of small houses in the $85-$90K range. Huge houses (by valley/nyc standards) are available for $150K.
First Ammendment - Why is this even an argument? Republicans tend to want to censor speech more than the dems, so the dems win this one.
Gun Laws - ridiculous. 2nd ammendment is there in the CONSTITUTION. Republicans win this one.
4th Ammendment - Republicans want to search you, your house, your moms house etc in the name of the "war on drugs" and now the "war on terror" Dems aren't much fuckin' better. But dems are a little looser so dems win this one.
Abortion - Well in reality making it illegal doesn't prevent it from happening, it simply makes it punishable. so even if you are against abortion, you have to realize outlawing it is futile. Dems win this one. Women truly have a choice in reality. A choice between a safe & legal abortion or no abortion is better than a choice between a dangerous illegal abortion or no abortion. Even God would agree with this logic.
Corporate welfare vs worker rights/ Labor. Until I own a corporation, I have to consider myself a worker. Dems win this one. How anyone can vote for something that will reduce their wages, reduce their health care, make them work longer hours all so that some asshole in a board room can export thier job to india to make even more money is beyond me. WAKE THE FUCK UP. How 'bout a little self preservation!!!! Unless you own a corporation, you need to see the light!!!
Jails versus Education: hmm, spend money on educating our children so that they will be prepared to lead our country when they inherit it, or cut spending in schools and parks & rec programs only to eventually spend more money on jails to house our misguided uneducated forgotten youth? tough one here. gee, what should we do ?
Democrats win. Republicans are greedy assholes who can afford private shools for their children. What about the rest of the nations. Those punk asses that are not getting education and resort to crime will hopefully rob your house you greedy fuckheads. (unfortunately you rich bastards live ina gated community, so they'll rob my house and the house of other working men and women, which is unfortunate because it's YOUR POLICY that destroyed thier chances of making it in this world).
Corporate friendly env. policy versus environmental friendly environmental policy. Hmm, in my short life time I've seen 200-500% growth in my home town. Land Development is BIG BUSINESS. It's sad to see them rape the land to build a shitload of cheap ass houses all crammed in tight next to eachother. If those greedy fucks would build one or two less houses per project then all the families that moved in would get yards and a little bit of privacy. Instead they are living in a future ghetto that frankly looked better as natural land. That's the friendliest of the land uses. Chemical plants, manufacturing plants, refineries, junk yards. SHEESH!!! This whole country will be one paved piece of shit in less than 50 years. It's fine if you own a big ass ranch in texas, who cares if your refinery pollutes the fuck out of some poor neighborhood in the wrong side of town. Maybe it will kill those "niggas" before you have to arrest them after they drop out of that shitty high school you wouldn't approve the tax dollars to fix up because you wanted some tax cuts to afford to pay off the crooked politician who allowed the refinery. FUCK!!! Democrats win this one too.
You see, aside from the gun thing, republican policy benefits only a small minority of wealthy assholes. The rest of us get screwed every which way in a increasingly painful cycle. We lose our jobs so our kids go to cheap schools which don't get good funding because money is going to corporations so our kids poor and pissed off do drugs or get pregnant or drop out or graduate and go to college despite the odds, then they lose their jobs and their kids go to crap schools, etc. etc. over and over again while more and more of us become poor and a few fortunate a-holes get richer and richer.
well, it can only go on for so long before we unite and kill you you fuckin rich assholes
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
One of my coworkers had an interesting idea though. He was considering signing up with the California Highway Patrol. It seems like a good plan. Officers make over $50k a year for entry level, get tons of benefits (like $3000 a year for meals), extra perks/pay for specialized skills (such as piloting or even bilingual), and there is a real growth opportunity. Police officers are in high demand in California right now. Look in the classified in any paper and you will see several listings for several cities. Even my sleepy little hometown of Half Moon Bay, CA is always looking for new officers.
I actually considered, and am still considering, signing up too. I'll have to get in a little bit better shape before I do, but that's not a problem. It would be a rewarding job where I could make a difference, and make some cash too. Something to think about, anyway. You gotta give it up to the Uncle Sam. Best employer you could ever have.
I drive one (of 2) of those big ass SUV's, and I'll shoot anyone who wants to deny me my right to them. No one takes money from public schools, it isnt their money. You must be one of those socialists who actually believe that our money belongs to the government, and we are lucky to have what they let us keep.
The hell with that. I'll bet you are one of those freakin' socialists who think it is their place to tell me what I need and dont need, as if it is your right.
I dont work for the government, I work for me. My money is MY money, not yours, not the governments, not the welfare momma you might have come from.
Wake up genius; People built this country, not governments. People built those sucky public schools that turn out nothing of note these days. It is PEOPLE who can either fix them, or become irrelavent as people move their kids to places where they can learn, and the dregs can stay there and practice Condoms101 on each other.
I have firsthand experience using offshore labor (hiring programmers for small to medium jobs).
We found one AMAZING guy in Russia. $15/hour. He's not always consistent (he's 23, just got married and still setting his life up) but he understands and does what he's asked in a reasonable amount of time.
Two other programmers from Russia and two others from India were either incompetent, incommunicative, or both.
I'm not worried. It will take a LONG time for them to train to our standards, and when they do they simply RAISE the amount of useful labor produced and therefore raise the quality of life for us AND them.
Predicted long ago by the cantankerous Edward Yourdon. Ed was complaining about sloppy US software engineering as well as cheap, competent international labor. Ed wrote a sequel during the dot.com boom rebutting his earlier thesis, but the earlier ideas seem more accurate. Ed's numerous books start with some current social commentary, then repeat his personal brand of software engineering.
I won't try to educate you about what impact Iraq is having on the economy. You desperately need to surf out to http://www.wsj.com
A new house of today tends to be much larger and more featured than house of yesteryear. For example, the great housing story of the 50s was Levittown. Its where the great suburban fantasy started. A typical new home in Levittown was something like 700 square feet. Typical new homes of today are two and three times as large. They tend to have washers and dryers standard, and other features that were unheard of in Levittown. Similar statements can be made about cars. I've owned cars from the 60s and 70s. There is no meaningful comparison with the cars of today in terms of features, safety, and quality. Therefore, you cannot directly compare their costs in such a simplistic way.
OK I can't resist. I used to work in the auto industry and our CEO once said what the customer wants is:
German Engineering
Japanese Quality
American Service
Mexican Price
I hate to say it, but he was right and that's what companies are trying to do when they outsource jobs. Consumers are so sensitive to slight differences in price, so if one company in their sector makes a change to save a very small amount of cash while putting American workers out of work, every other company that markets the same goods or services has to do something to cut costs by the same amount. We have to realize that the American consumer is driving this phenomenon. I don't know how to fix it, but we are creating our own problem.
The moral enigma of prgrammers:
The ultimate goal of a good programer is to do away with repetitive tedious work. As that happens, processes streamline and less employees are needed for the same operations until eventually they are all replaced.
The programmer is here to replace unskilled workers with robots. Don't you think that's worth a load of money to a CEO who is looking 5-15 years down the road? The problem of today is that they are no longer looking at the road, they are looking at the tail-lights ahead of them and guessing whether the guy will brake or go.
Hammer of Truth
I know I may get modded down for this, but I'll stand up for this particular point. If one looks back at all of the technological innovation in the past 50 years, the vast majority of it has come from within the United States. Telecom, semiconductors, software, you name it - if it was commercially viable, that commercial viability pretty much originated here. Now that the expertise is being outsourced, what will sustain further development of it here?
If you look at all the new grads coming out, they have been told time and again that technology is their ticket to success. They've been pushed through universities like cattle, but they never expected the slaughterhouse to be right at the exit. Now that there's a glut, economics is dictating huge competition driving down salaries. Tech suddenly isn't as sexy any more, and people are flocking to jobs at more traditional companies. Tech companies keep outsourcing more and more.
But let's move this one step further. People coming into university see this. They stop coming in. Innovation and research starts slowing down. Nanotech and biotech research vaporizes because the capital base that is partly cross-subsidizing it vaporizes slowly. There is no killer application driving the tech economy. We can do with what we already have.
What we may end up with is the majority of our technological manufacturing and knowledge base outside the United States. The United States (and, to a large extent, the rest of the Western world) could become dependent on foreign technology the same way it is dependent on foreign oil. Yes, many of these jobs being outsourced are staying within the foreign subsidiaries US companies, but the bulk of the knowledge is not on US soil. Those workers can walk away at any time without recourse for the US companies.
My point is that there are very serious implications for everyone's life in general. If the majority of the expertise and manufacturing ends up outsourced to what are effectively third world countries, we could be subjected to embargoes by cartels in the same way OPEC has power today. It could even impact national security, since overall research into technology could stagnate and the pool of available scientists and engineers dwindles.
If you think it can't happen, think again. It already has in large part. If not for cooperative trade agreements, many of the bulk goods coming into the United States would disappear overnight, from Tommy jeans to Sony TVs. This means that there may be greater reliance on the US military to protect us. Unfortunately, many of these countries possess big weapons that they didn't have 50 years ago. The US won't be able to push them around like they have already, and this will cause a loss of control.
So what can we do about this? We need to vigorously publicize the nightmare stories of outsourcing. We need to show homegrown successes. We need to get these people waking up before we end up hanging ourselves by our own rope. We need to prove that we are better than those working in third world countries. We need to show what made the United States a great country - hard work, perserverance, and a good brain.
OR
We had better give up now and accept a much lower standard of living, and all of the shock it will create. It will be either one scenario or the other. But not both.
Since the government started granting charters for corporations being a public good? Since businesses get many tax benefits that individuals don't get and cry about "lost jobs" any time anyone talks about getting rid of them? Since our tax dollars pay for the promotion of their products to overseas markets? Since we send our sons and daughters overseas to protect their economic interests in other countries?
Perhaps they don't owe me a job, but they sure as hell owe some people in this country jobs for everything that we provide to them.
That is all.
Except, of course, the *definition* of 'First World' is "The US, and countries that wish they were (i.e. western Europe)". The definition of 'Second World' was then the USSR and other Evil Godless Commies(TM), and 'Third World' was everyone else.
So saying the US is "third world" basically destroys the definition, and without definition you can say anything you want. As long as I say that "cheese" really means "land south of Canada and north of Mexico", I can say that "The US is made out of cheese."
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Things are never as bad as they seem during a recession, and never as good as they seem during a boom.
Certain programming jobs will go offshore, but not all. Embedded systems don't need GUI or Language skills, so those will go. Programming jobs that require human interaction skills will be less successful offshore because the cultural literacy of the U.S. isn't very good in India. That will drive up the costs of their production.
System integration will not go offshore at all, because many times you physically need to be on site to integrate the system.
During the past 10 years we (programmers) have been making an Economic Profit. Economic Profits only last until other competitors (local college grads, h1b folks) come in and compete for jobs, lowering the salaries to an equilibrium point. It isn't greed, it isn't mean-spiritedness, it isn't anti-patriotic, it is economics. Adam Smith defined the basic movement of the "Invisible Hand" over 200 years ago. As salaries go down, h1b folks leave the country, people change careers, and in general the supply of tech folks drop as people look for other ways of making money or acquiring skills.
When another boom starts, as it will, salaries will go up as demand outstrips supply, and then the big bucks will be rolling in again.
How can I be so certain? I am, because Tech is a boom & bust cycle with a period of roughly 4 ears. The headlines in the early 80's read "Silicon Valley is dead! The Japanese stole all our jobs!" In late 80's, PC's were the rage, the "Savior of the Economy". In the early 90's, George Bush (Senior) was blamed for wrecking "The Economy, Stupid!" In the late 90's, "The business cycle is dead, the New Economy is here!" Now they read "Silicon Valley is dead! The Indians stole all our jobs!"
Give it a couple of years, after the war costs have been absorbed and growth returns to the U.S. economy. That will spur demand at home for tech positions, and demand will ripple throughout the world for goods and services. The good times won't be far behind. Demand will outstrip supply, salaries will rise, and everyone will be yapping about the new "Economic Miracle".
That's what it's all about!!
Most companies are not happy making 65% profit off their goods, they want more and become more greedy!! So what do they do?? They do stuff like this, they look for ways to increase case flow and in-turn increase profits. Basic...Basic...Basic...So companies will always look ways to lower salaries. Either go overseas or layoff poeple.
And this also relates to salaries...At what point would you be happy enuff with your current pay??? 60K,110K, 35k?????
I find that I don't care that someone is taking a lower pay job and shipping it overseas!! I wouldn't be doing that job anyway.
It's left blank because I have nothing to say to you punks!
So I guess now you can work at a 7-11 and make more money within 2 years than you can with a 4 year degree in computer science? Plus the payback of the student loans. Even if you make more in the long run the payback will take another 5-10 years. I am not sure that we will have any programming work in US by then...go into a trade while you are young and you still can.
Open source development is my way of competing with the low-cost programmers in India...
This very thing is happening at my current company. I worked at a small, profitable company in a niche industry. Nine months ago, our company was bought up by a corporation that, as far as I can tell, exists to buy companies to increase their revenues and profits. Most business people will tell you that this type of thing can only work if the purchasing company is able to make the purchased companies grow.
Well, now we are being told that the company is looking to outsource software jobs. In essence, we are being asked to train our own replacements. Not a huge surprise, but it will be interesting to see how well it is done. This is a very niche industry, with much communication and industry specific knowledge needed to do the work I'm not at all confident that outsourcing abroad is an appropriate solution for our needs right now.
When this happened in manufacturing, the pundits said that the America of the future was going to be an idea based, value added economy. It was argued that the high paying jobs created by our superior educational system would maintain our dominance in the future. Now the same thing is happening with these high requirement jobs. America is becoming a nation of investors, marketers, and sales people.
I'm not quite what, if anything, should be done about this.
The government regulations are so tough in the us that it is way to expensive to operate manufacturing in the US. Of course now that there are so many regulations it would take far too many lawyers and too much money to rework it all so that it wouldn't be impossible for companys to stay.
In the immortal words of C3PO "we're doomed"
---
I guess there were no American Web Applications Engineers left to fill the spot.
Michael Loves Me!
I'm getting tired of this whole "This is good because it will improve global economy, so adapt or die." crowd.
:)
This will NOT improve global economy, this will improve local economy of OTHER countries. Do you think India is going to stop taxing American imports just because a very, VERY small minority of the population is getting paid well by third world standards? Are they going to start outsourcing their jobs back into the US? I doubt it. So corporations make some money from cheap labor, because the country they outsourced to doesn't have labor laws, the outsourced country is only slightly better off, and we have Americans who can't find work to feed their own families. I fully admit I CAN'T compete with an 8 year old chinese boy in a sweatshop. I would never WANT to compete for that job, and no one should have to live with that kind of job, just to survive. If you want to rememdy the global economy, human rights MUST come first, as money is just a measurement of a human time.
Also, as an American, I have given my governemnt certain rights over me, so that they can work in good faith toward my best interest and the best interests of the American people, not so that they can make the world a better place. I could give less of a shit if my job supports an Indian Family who were previously impoverished, if now MY family is impoverished.
If employers are allowed to ship our jobs off to foreign countries with no penalty, rather than hire us to produce their product/service, then I should be able to ship in products and service from foreign nations without penalty or tarrif.
So explain to me how it is a fair playing field when corporations can undercut salary expenses by shipping jobs to foreign countries, while still being protected from Industry in those foreign countries underselling the same product/service over here?
It also undercuts traditional American values. We are beggining to no longer be the land of oppurtunity. If Americans can't get jobs, aliens can't either. So instead of a bright, well trained Indian worker coming over here to have a high standard of living, he has to stay in his home country, getting paid next to nothing and still living in third world conditions.
And to all the +5 Informatives spouting "Americans think just because they are American and have an education they have the right to a high standard of living and a decent job.", all I have to say is, You are god damn right we do. My father, grandfather, great grandfather, etc.. fought to give me that right, and I would fight to give my kids the same right. Why should I have to lower my standard of living so others can raise theirs? It's not like we've always been on top in the global economy, we made it there, and we made it there for ourselves, not for others, although we are gracious in letting others join in. Why should we sacrafice our high standard of living instead of foreigners sacraficing their nationality? If you want what we got, then you can come to America, but America should NEVER come to you.
I know, I know, I'm rambling in my digression. I do tend to get upset when I see non-Americans blaming the US for whatever is wrong with their countries. (ie. chinese bitching about US tax imports instead of 0 chinese labor laws).
I see a few -1 Flaimbaits coming, but oh well, this is how I feel
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
I have seen a lot of outsourcing going on, mostly to India, but to be honest, these typically aren't the most interesting jobs. Sure, they are the bread and butter for some of us but they are mostly jobs involving maintaining older code bases, debugging and testing code, doing phone support, internationalizing previously released software, and doing pure programming (not software design/engineering) of problems that have been completely spec'ed out.
IMHO, much of the really interesting work will stay in the US (and Europe) because it requires people to be close to their customers and do innovative problem solving and design. For instance, if your company/team is trying to create a new product to solve problem X for customer Y and the problem is poorly understood and poorly described, you are best off visiting the customer, spending time watching how the customer works, learning what the customer's tasks are like and how you can support them, and involving the customer in tight-loop interative design. This type of work is SO much easier when you are in the same or similar time zone as the customer. The power of being able to hop in the car to drive to their site or take a short flight to the next state (and be home in the evening) means a lot to the management of both the customer and provider.
Scheduling phone conference calls with India is a really pain in the backside. Everyone I know who has to do it gripes and bitches. Flying to India takes a long time, is very expensive and requires way more planning than driving or flying in the US/CA. Finally, if I want to be in regular communication with a customer, complete with multiple site visits, even the distance between the east and west coasts of the US can become a really pain in the rear. The distance between the US and India (the OTHER SIDE OF THE EARTH) is just too damn unbearable. I watched on company attempt to divide innovative design between India and the US and it was an unmitigated disaster, resulting in the company entering death throws.
I spent all of those years as Anonymous Coward and all I got was this lousy number (204976).
Two years ago, I worked for a company that had a department in Egypt, and when layoffs occurred, they only occurred for us here. The Egyptians were skilled and intelligent, but they were not as well-trained in software engineering as the average US college graduate. They could write code, but they were not well-versed in different operating systems, and I probably would not expect them to have had any training in algorithmic complexity or other techniques that frequently help with design of a system.
But this was not an example of outsourcing. This was someone giving people in his former country a chance to succeed, and these people were not programmers of the level you'd expect to be graduating from a decent US university. These people were not given the tasks that those of us who were laid off were given; those tasks ended up being done by the founders, or no one at all.
This article is very cleverly written, and does a terrific job of trying to stir up trouble -- just look at the number of posts to this article!
Note that when comparing foreign wages to ours, the author of the article specifically chooses to mention -programmer- and -project manager- salaries.
Yet all of the "I.T." jobs that are being outsourced that the article mentions are for -call centers-. Tech support. The bottom of the barrel for I.T. The article also fails to disclose the sort of jobs the person it mentions was looking for and holding, and even then it has to give the disclaimer that her case is not normal!
I don't see demand in the United States for highly-skilled and trained Software Engineers diminishing. And the amount of code still needing to be written in the world is still growing much faster than the educated base of potential employees, as more and more things that were formerly done in hardware are moved to software, and more and more things are given interfaces that we can program new things for.
In short, no need to panic. This article is what used to be called "yellow journalism," trying to stir up discontent and political action where there is little evidence or story in fact.
Yes folks, I have realized, as an american citizen I stand NO chance of getting a tech job right now. So I put my plan into action.
/end satire
I'll renounce my american citizenship, fly to india, marry a native woman (to gain indian citizenship) and change my last name to Apu. Then, and only then will I apply for an american job under H1B visa laws. AND I'LL GET THE JOB WOOHOO!!! Oh and let's not forget, I'll need to bring 8k with me for that phony CS degree.
Boy will my bosses be surprised when they see toqer Apu is really a white dude that speaks perfect english! They might even sponsor me to become an american citizen again!
THIS IS CORPORATE ACCOUNTABILITY?
And just how do domestic makers expect US consumers to purchase domestic goods when they no longer have the disposable income because their jobs went overseas?
The US Corporations can STUFF IT.
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
For christs sake! Are people JUST NOW figuring this shit out??
Hell, jobs have been leaving this country since I was a kid in the 60's. I remember Japanese crap was just that, crap and Chinese imports were limited to china (plates, cups) and bamboo/paper toys. It was novelty crap for kids to blow spare pennies on. Then the Japs got serious on cars and that's when it all started. Then Nixon f*cked us over by making nice with China and they began to gear up to flood us with more trash.
I remember in 1979 I had just moved out on my own and gotten a good paying job. I wanted to buy a TV but I was pissed because EVERYTHING said "Made in Chicago"
I shopped and shopped and I finally found a 25" Curtis Mathis console TV that said in BIG letters on the back, "Made in Texas" so I bought it! I was so happy to have found something made in Texas and NOT in Chicago that I had to have it. And I paid $1,200 in 1979 dollars for it, no remote control and with rotory knobs no less!
It's too late folks. This country is gone. We build NOTHING here anymore.
What do we produce? More consumers for cheaply made, imported CRAP!
i live in Sri Lanka and work for the webdev section of a british dotcom. at the moment the company has 20 webdev people in the UK and 4 in SL (the rest of the team are support staff and grafx ppls), but according to the ceo they are thinking of downgrading the entire uk structure and hiring more people here in SL.
my point is here... by UK standards they are paying us peanuts!! i get paid less than 7% of what the job i do would cost if it were being done by a brit. (trust me, i checked the numbers, a dev guy would get UKP2,000 there i get the equivalent of UKP150)
but this amount lets me make about 10x of minimum wage here which is a decent amount.
but there are downsides to this.
- MOST ASIANS ARE DRONES!!! if you want them to do a piece of work and keep doing it they are perfect. but our society and education system which puts more weight on conformity and herd-following (and no i DO NOT mean chasing a bunch of cows around 8-) ) means that if you want to do something innovative here you got to find those exceptional types who can think and improvise. and those ones are already in the US on their H1B
- most people in asia don't speak english all that well. this leads to confusion and problems in communications with the westerners
i was hired because i am one of those few nonconformists who decided to come back to my country (went to uni in OKC, USA, saw the dot bomb about to drop and buggered off, also my parents run a moderately successful company here), i can think on my feet and i am am bilingual (i speak both languages well enough to pass for a native, in fact when i was in the US i frequently was)..i see my friends trying to make a living in the US and i feel sorry for them (degree holding CS guys stacking shelves in wally world...) personally i would love to get them down here where the cost of living is low, and if you know how to manipulate the system (which, believe me i do) you can live and work. sure you'll miss your mega malls, and seeing the latest movies as they come out, no mtn dew, no game arcades and no DSL.. but we got great weather, cheap housing (by us standards anyway) and beaches...
personally i would LOVE to have a few slashdotters come join me here, and i am already running a dotcom that could use some help (so its not making money atm but i'm working on that part)
i guess the point i am trying to make is this. the US has been training its people for freedom and creativity, the east for drones. put the two together and you get a potent mix. we could use some creative thinkers here, you could do with some drones there.
anyone wanna come mix it up??
Suchetha
learn from yesterday, plan for tomorrow, party tonight
or one out of three ain't bad
"In the socio- and anthropological fields it is pretty much accepted that the United States is a Third World country that basically won the lottery."
Um... what? Says who? Sources? Links to related journals? Those numbers you conveniently don't provide?
"I won't provide statistics, but check out (a) Literacy rates (b) Infant mortality (c) Homicide rates (d) % of population below the poverty line, and (e) the gap between the rich and poor."
And I suppose this has absolutely nothing to do with the way we accept more immigrants than any other country in the world hands down? I don't know about you, but I would tend to expect a few Third World tendancies when we're busily accepting people from said Third World.
Of course, I'm sure our numbers would be "better" if we simply took a "Not just no but Hell No!" approach to immigration, much like they seem to do in the EU. I suppose Third World problems are best dealt with at arm's length. Where's Joerg Haider when you need him?
Those "literacy rates..." Are they a count of literacy in general or just literacy in English?
"A large middle class running in hamster wheels does not a First World country make."
How about an economic environment that fosters self-entrepenuership, allowing just about anybody to hang their own shingle? How about a political environment that has virtually no distinctions between "citizenship by choice" and "citizenship by blood?" How about a social environment that prizes hard work and self determination above all else?
"And in pure opinion, I believe it has less to do with Democratic myopism and more to do with some extremely rich people pulling the ladder up after themselves."
You mean like "limiting the numbers and sources of immigrants that can come into the US?" You mean like "unions that both require membership to work and deny membership to non-citizens?"
The real answer is promote yourself and stop being a worker-bee. Join the management team and keep your job!
Seriously, if you recognize the simple rules of supply and demand and how they affect the labor market and, furthermore, you see that protesting in front of the IMF and the World Bank is not going to stop the tide of globalization, then take action! Don't sit on the sidelines as the world acts upon you. Find a service -- service is key -- that US businesses are willing to pay for and setup shop in India or Sri Lanka! You handle business development and front as the CxO here in the US, and get one reliable person in your third-world location to oversee your own worker-bees. Know how to use PowerPoint?! You've got the skills to do this. All of the Dell, AOL, HP, etc. call centers in the third world are run by small business people who started just like this.
If any of you have co-workers or friends with family in the third world, ask them about contacts back home that you could pursue. I promise you that no matter how many times you post on Slashdot about how furious these trends make you, you're not going to stop it. Best you can do is recognize the trend and make the best of it.
P.S. I'm was laid off last winter because my employer was hit with an FTC lawsuit for telemarketing fraud. If any of you have contacts in the third world, please e-mail me. I'm interested in creating jobs and providing rich opportunities for people you know!
I'm really amazed at the number of people on all sides of the political spectrum who can't figure out what's going on around them. Foriegn outsourcing is not about corporate survival except in companies with a historic record of mismanagement. Let's say you're making millions of units of almost any mass market item a year. The difference between the cost of doing R&D here and in India spread over X-million units is fairly trivial. A recent article quotes a CEO as saying that he expects a problem with Indian competition 10 years from now, but this is saving him money now... what's implied is that 10 years from now will be someone else's problem.
This is about notching up earnings in a down economy so CEOs can make the profit targets which will enable their next batch of stock options. It's the same sort of thing that has produced Enron-style shell games to inflate reported profits.
Like just about everything else that's been going on in the last few years at the large corporate level, it's about short-term maximation of profits. Not for the stockholders, for the CEOs themselves. The stockholders aren't going to know when to dump their stock to get maximum value for it. The CEOs don't have the slightest interest in their employeess, the health of the nation or the communities in which they're doing business, profit for the stockholders or building good companies anymore. "The commons" is just something to privatise a chunk of and strip-mine that chunk until it's worthless.
This is hardly surprising. When one's main form of compensation is based on meeting quarterly profit or stock price targets, one doesn't want to invest in long-term R&D or employees or anything that might conceivably interfere with making the next batch of stock options kick in. Doing anything interesting and creative that doesn't show an immediate return is the sort of thing that makes investment analysts who generally don't understand what the companies that they advise about do real unhappy. Make them unhappy and the stock price drops. The stock one previously got in compensation drops in value... along with the CEO's personal net worth.
Why hasn't private industry built a space infrastructure capable of supporting things like a powersat network supplying enough energy to make Middle East oil permanently obsolete? In general, the present corporate business model can't support major projects that would take 10 years to provide a return on investment. A typical Fortune 500 CEO isn't going to start a project that's going to do nothing for him but make a successor look real good.
The funniest part about this is that the CEOs doing this appear to be under the impression that India is just another bunch of burbs whose residents talk funny, have an interesting ethnic cuisine and work real cheap.
[Note 1] They are normally on the edge of nuclear war with their Muslim neighbor, Pakistan, mainly over religious hostility. The dominant religious grouping (Hindus) is calling for the expulsion of Muslims. Poor Muslims are being physically pushed into Bangladesh.
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:08:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "IntellNet"
Subject: News Flash: Ten killed as bomb rips rail coach in Bombay
Ten people were killed and 75 hurt yesterday when a bomb blew up on a train packed with homebound commuters in Bombay, the deadliest in a spate of blasts in India's financial capital in recent months.
Note 1 - to read this kind of happy fun news yourself, subscribe to OSINT-L, the Open Sources Intelligence mailing list.
What I describe is business as usual.
Third World generally translates as "powder keg".
However, the CEOs who are doing this know that if they lose their bet and one of their call centers disappears in a conve
Tech Public Policy stuff
Ok, this may be a stupid question, but has anybody thought of what happens to the whole "outsource to India" trend when India dukes it out with Pakistan again? Doesn't this scare companies away from making such a significant investment there?
I Live in Switzerland, that fabled land in Europe of greedy Banks, snowy alpine chocolate box covers and strange, overpiced cheese with holes in it. Switzerland is one of the richest countries on earth. But in the last year and a half there has been one economic desaster after another. The national airline, Swissair, a national symbol for something like 75 years went tits up at the end of 2001, after a desasterous spending spree in which they bought out about five other regional airlines in Europe which all went bankrupt. In this year alone, the big Swiss banks and insuances have started letting workers go in their thousands, something that has never happened here before and something that is especially troubling when one considers that Switzerland's main empoyers are those very banks and insurances.
I work for a small building supplies company that is also going through rocky times as a system administrator and general computer do it all. Life is damn hard and I earn very little. I am constantly worried that I will lose my job to the other IT guy who doesn't even know what a path in Windows is (C:\bla\bla etc) but is doing a course in software engineering in C++. The guy is absolutely useless in sys admin stuff (and is less than interested) but is the bosses darling because he does the company's website, and the boss is one of those people who get impressed by Flash intros. He's an Arab and can not put a simple written sentence in German together.
However, if there's one thing I have learned in this long and painful life, it's that life is not fair. Shit happens and one invariably gets shafted sometime or another.
I suppose that is why we have religion and why Osama and company are so trendy in the muslim world.