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Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
One of the suits already got dismissed.
If, on the other hand, Sun looses this one, then bye bye US jobs and hello nice fat contract for Sun India. Which would be even worse.
Hyperom.com
I thought one of the contingencies of hiring an H1B worker is that the employer has to prove that they cannot find a worker of equal skill in the US job market. If they US workers have the same skill set but are just more expensive then this is a violation of the H1B processes.
That being said, my wife is currently here on an H1B, and I am fairly sure that there are not many people that can do her job and I believe she is working via an H1B on all legal issues.
Not the lawsuits, but the hiring of H1B's over US Citizens. I work in a small company (no, not the one linked to in my URL) and there are maybe 15 coders in our office.
Three of them are US Citizens. I am one of them.
We will see job postings go up in our break room, and submit the resume's of people we know who need jobs, but the job listings are basically a reprint of the resume of the H1B that the company has selected. So, they have all this extraneous stuff that you wouldn't use in that job, but they are considered "job requirements" and THAT is how they can tell the INS that "We can't find an equally qualified citizen."
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't work for clients and have to travel on site, and many of our clients will ONLY want US Citizens. So, that leaves the three of us to do ALL of the travelling, even if there has been a personal tragedy in our life. (And one of us has a newborn child, so she's not travelling either...)
I guess I can look at this a few ways. A) My life is a wreck right now because I can't stay home, but B) I have insane job security, something that is a very good thing to have in today's economy.
Look, there are people all over the world who would like to come to the US and work. Why should the high tech companies and foreign engineers get special treatment over other businesses and other workers?
I have no problem if foreign engineers get in line with everyone else to get a green card or citizenship in the US. But it's not fair to US engineers to be singled-out for replacement because the high tech industry has bribed the government for special treatment.
I'm not a racist, but there are a lot of Americans out of work. Give them the work. I know for a fact they are working for less money. The H1 is meant is supplant a short fall of US Labor, not replace it. Unfortately the INS does not control the levels of H1 Visas. It is controled by law. The last law upping the limits was enacted a few months before the bust. The economy is in the dumpers and the law is not being repealed. Sun would have been smarter to just offshore the project instead of hiring H1 visa employees. That they can do. Replacing US Citizens with H1 employees is not legal. Of course a change in the job description and wala, a layoff and a rehire at a 35% savings. You are right. I am wasting my salary. On savings incase I get laid off again. Oh yeah, $1100 a month to rent a dump.
It is of most vital importance that it be made clear to Joe-six-pack that heavy users of H-1B visas are going out of business during the economic down-turn faster than their rivals who did not rely so much on H-1B visas -- and that the use of H-1B has not been the solution -- it has rather evolved into the problem.
H-1B visa opponents are not savvy politically and therefore have to meet extraordinarily impressive standards of evidence that H-1B visas are destructive -- the standard of evidence they must reach to show their case is vastly in excess of the standards that are applied to convince executives to displace their US employees with H-1B visa programs. All the H-1B advocate has to say is "The H-1B programmers don't cost as much." Those H-1B advocates never have to answer for the destruction wraught on the companies by the H-1B visa employees then hired. They're protected by political favoritism toward those that promote "diversity", "anti-racism", "global markets", etc. The corporations destroyed by executives who are so shallow as to presume H-1B visas will raise profits need to have no excuses handed to them at the last minute.
Seastead this.
Why are so many Americans of the impression that America has a greedy Labor force just because somebody in taiwan will work for beans???
The company is selling the product for the same price, regardless of where the labor is. The only difference here is how much money the American CEOs et al. can squeeze out of their own people. If they can not squeeze enough to buy that extra fleet of jets, fire the Americans and hire elsewhere.
How does one come to blame the Labor force for this level of greed???
Why dont we fire the CEOs and hire some from China? We'd save a lot more money...
I here that people like working for Honda in Ohio assembly plant a lot more than they like working for the Big3...
This seems to be more about blatant racism then immigration issues. I mean, the cofounder is Indian and said that sun favors Indians. That's totally illegal under US law. On the other hand, it does make some sense 'protect' H1-B visa holders from being fired, since they would then need to find another job or leave the country, while americans can just go on unemployment for a while.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I'd argue that the H1 program should just be *enforced*. H1Bs, as written in law, *require* the visa holder to be paid prevailing wages, and *require* something called 'Labor Certification', which supposedly proves that there are no available native workers in the local market who can perform those functions.
Fees are paid by the hiring company that supposedly pay for enforcement. However, it's clear that the Dept of Labor (that handles the labor certification process) is woefully underfunded and unskilled, and that imigration lawyers can (legally!) game the system just by writing the applications in a certain way. DoL sees language they recognise, and rubber-stamps the application because they don't have the resources to check it out.
If the legislation was properly enforced, this would be a non-issue. The H1-B laws are actually pretty good.
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
.com era, and will continue to happen. You are entitled no job, if someone else can do it cheaper and better than you. If you cry to your government about it, it means that you are a complete fuckwad who has no sense of personal responsibility.
No, but people have the right to be able to get two cars, a huge house, overaseas vacations. Regardless of where they are from, everybody has the right to work towards that. Every year, an average 3.3 million people are laid off in America. This happened before the
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There is a reason why people get chosen to be laid off. You insist on bringing your standard of living down. You are responsible, and accountable. If these people were paid comparatively, you would still get laid off because they would probably still do it better. Your standard of living is a direct result of your capabilities, in the environment you are in. You are not entitled to a high paying job purely because you have experience in that field; if you suck, oh well, the unemployement line is over there.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
So what is your point? Sun operates in the US, taking advantage of the H1B, because of the security, lack of corruption, good healthcare, etc. They are deriving definite benefits from operating in the US, and clearly it is their first choice over completely moving overseas. In essence Sun is having their cake and eating it too, abusing a system that was created because of the theoretical (and completely unproven lack of talent). Note that I'm not an American, nor do I live in the US, but given the supposed reason that H1Bs exist, one would think that every single H1B technology worker would have long been sent home. Instead companies like Sun keep using it as a bargaining tool to unfairly take advantage of the little guy. Of course this will hurt them as many of us have a real distasteful impression of Sun : I wouldn't touch their products personally.
BTW: Before everyone yaps on about how the US worker had better suck it up and deal with it or they'll relocate to India, let me give you a more realistic scenario - Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?
then let them go. If they are not hiring american workers then let them move their asses over seas. Then they can get import tariffs placed on all their goods and we can start buying products from and American company with American staff.
It's not at all the same thing. The equivalent is software shops that outsource their development to a foreign contractor or subsidiary. Even then, the cars are subject to significant transport costs and import tariffs. Neither of these constraints apply to software.
What a cheap attempt to reshape the argument. The core of this issue here is the enforcement and abuse of an existing US law. Most anyone still in technology today could probably share several anecdotal stories of abuse of the visa system. We have every right to expect our government to enforce our laws to protect our citizens. Sadly, political donations often trump the rule of law, and often reshape the law.
If/when the H1-B visa system is corrected to reflect its legal mandate, then a different discussion will ensue, one which will reflect the actual going market rate and answer your pricing question. The result would be either:
Either one of these outcomes is a welcome change from the status quo. It's simply speculation to base market conclusions on the existing environment of fraud.
Seen any BadMarketing lately?
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
True in part, but you can't get that by cutting taxes, somehow the government has to pay for it, so either you have to pay the appropriate taxes for this or you have to look out for yourself. Normally the people screaming about too much regulation are the ones that start screaming for the government when they want something from it. You can't have it both ways.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
True enough, but I am sure you were all in favour of the latest tax cuts?
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere.
Wrong, that is how companies would like to see themselves portrait but at the end of the day for them (and their shareholders) it is all about profits. Sure they like to say: "Stay out of this government, we can take care of it." But they will only do just enough to look at least halfway good.
If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There has to be a tradeoff: You can't grow indefinetly and as such you have to give up one of your cars in order for someone else to be able to use the resources. You can easily lower your standard of living (well most people can) without really impacting your QUALITY of living.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
If you would revert back to a time before the "globalization" and produce everything at home your standard of living would diminish even faster. The costs for the companies would be higher, the companies would look for other ways to cut corners and in the end you wouldn't be better off.
There have been studies done that show very clearly that the countries (as a whole) who profited most from Globalization are the first world countries.
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
WTF, 'extremely frugally' means you don't have two cars, a huge home, a boat, & a two week overseas vacation... LOL...
I make less than $20k a year & always have in the tech industry, but it's the tech industry on the east coast (& heck it's not even really 'coastly' unless you count lake Erie). I can barely pay for a car, apartment, insurance, & food with a little extra... I have problems getting another job because the companies would like to outsource rather than hire me for a little more than I make now (maybe I could buy a house or pay back those college loans that would make it so I'd have to live in a box to pay them back atm)...
The problem isn't just in the bigger cities of the west coast, it's everywhere. They have a much lower cost of living (especially if actually in... say... India) & often even those coming here stick together, which to be honest we (the ones already in this country) don't so they can live on less...
It has nothign to do with people insisting on having "two cars, a huge home, a boat, a 2 week overseas vacation, etc", it has everythign to do with making a living in a global market we are ill prepared for as a workforce...
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
dont bother arguing with X, he is a hopeless globablist. and he seems to think americans suck at their jobs. or that for some reason some MCSE bootcamp graduate over in india always does it better.....
what is rather amusing is that Sun started doing this three years ago -and i do outsourcing work for them - and now they are losing money hand over fist because of bad management and lack of technical skill, management sent the jobs to india and the india techs suck.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
US Companies aren't supposed to hire H1-B's unless they can't find US talent to fill the position, right? Well, if a company is so desperate to fill a position, I say let them pay a hefty tariff per H1-B employed. Something around 50-100% of the H1-B's salary should be about right. This will do 2 things: It will make certain that a company is really desperate before they hire an H1-B, and it will make them more likely to hire a citizen and train them, the costs would be far less than paying the tariff. Also, it would ensure that H1-B's hired to fill a temporary need don't become permanent workers (they aren't supposed to be permanent anyway, right?).
Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
that worry me. I'm fine if they can come over here and work. I've had a lot of international friends. What ticks me off the most is when they come over and piss all over the american people.
I have a couple roomies, one is upper-caste Indian, doing a PhD. Well, he wrecked my other roomie's car, and in the courtroom had the nerve to say to the judge "You know, I like America, but the American people suck." F@cking bastard nearly got contempt, wish he would have. No I don't get along with him, but I have dozens of other Indian friends who aren't so arrogant.
My point is this. It's fine if you come over to work or get your education. Sure you may take jobs from Americans. That's life. But if you come over here and start bitching and moaning about how bad it is over here and how the american people suck. Then get the hell out of here. Go back to your homeland where it is "better".
Posting AC because I'm a concientious objector. You know, a coward.
Why does anybody think that stopping immigration of engineers would protect American jobs? I have seen several posts here talk about immigration and outsourcing to other countries as if they are the same thing. They are not.
Immigration keeps the jobs in the US, which ultimately is good for the US engineering industry. Outsourcing overseas sends the jobs elsewhere, which long term is very bad for the US engineering industry.
If the H1-B program was cancelled and not replaced with something else (killing off employment related immigration, since this is the only mechanism there is) what do you think would happen?
Despite all of the screams about record unemployment, EE unemployment really isn't that high. I know, of course, that for any individual there are only two levels of unemployment: there's 0%, which means you have a job, and 100%, which means that you don't. But the current level of EE unemployment is still sufficiently low that most companies struggle to find the right people. Today, both Europe and China outstrip the US in terms of EE graduate and PhD production rates. If US engineering companies were restricted any more in who they could employ in (and bring to, if necessary) the US, their reaction will not be to hire more US engineers. It will be to move whatever centers they need somewhere else. If you really think that "restricting the supply of engineers" (in the words of the IEEE-USA) will make for a stronger US engineering industry and greater levels of employment for US engineers, you are truly deluded.
I am on a H1-B. I get paid $100K a year. I worked my fucking tail off to be where I am today. The reason there are h1-bs are because this is a free-market. The companies ultimate goal is to make money. That is the raison' de etre of all corporations. H1-bs are not cheap labor stealing your job. They are competitors in a free job market. They don't even get unemployment benefits though they pay social security. But their payscales are on par.
I am from India. And I know what poor is ! so don't give me that shit.
I have been in H1-B for the past 6 years , There are some gross misconceptions about the H1-B workers .Here are some facts
9 out of 10 Tech companies reject workers who are not either citizens or Green Card holders
H1-B workers coming to united states for the first time(visit) have been reduced drastically, I have not seen anyone to come on H1-B
for the first time to the US over the past 2 years.Many of the H1-B workers who are here are in fact the best and the most experienced and have been here in for quite sometime.
It is extremely diffcult to do green card process for H1-B workers.
Many Big corporations have stopped doing Green Card process for H1-B workers.
Foreign students who are in american univerisities do not get jobs easily .So there is not a lot of H1-B workers coming out of colleges.
A H1-B worker cannot stay more than 6 years in the united states unless his company initiates the Green Card process.
American companies are outsourcing in a big way so in due course of time H1-B will be a relic as there won't be a need to bring foreign workers into United States ..
Is it legal for them to close down a division or department and move it overseas or just lay off people and contract the work overseas?
But it isn't legal to do something effectively equivalent that means some of the cash stays in the country.
irony I said and Rony said "Hi" back
H1B if enforced is actually a very good law. But we also need something which gives U.S. employees the same flexibility that H1B gives their employers. That is, if my job is exported overseas, I should have the right to follow that job and have a work visa in the target nation. Nations which export employees to the U.S. should be willing to import employees. The idea exchange which would take place would be benificial to all. You might think Americans wouldn't work in "sweatshop conditions", but working conditions can actually be better overseas. Ask a French employee how much vacation they get or how much notification is required before a layoff. The answer would make most Americans cry. Gross pay is the only benefit where American companies can compete globally, and then only companies in large U.S. cities. Vacation, flexibility, family friendliness, telecommuting and other worker right issues are better in almost every other first and second world nation. True capitalism would allow workers to flow to where they receive the best benefits to match their needs.
* i worked at sun thru the 90s
* i worked with one large team with many folks
from india (i really enjoyed working with them)
* i worked with a smaller team with the majority beging from india (another great group of folks)
* i talked with folks from india, and many said they would like to change jobs but cannot because they must stayed employed by the same employer for 6 yrs to obtain a green card. this is where the things are not apples-to-apples. a citizen can change jobs and not have to consider the consequences the H1-B person does. they have to be very careful. what i observed is that there is less movement by H1-B people working at sun. i perceive this as a captive audience, and i percieve management being very aware of this situation
* i dont think sun is breaking any laws from my experiences. the rules that are applied have undergone quite a challenge and require an extensive review and adjustment based on our economic conditions
* sun has enough trouble trying to execute, this is the least of their problems
You're pronouncement cuts both ways. Just because companies can pick and choose between H1B's doesn't mean they won't choose a cheaper H1B resource over an American every time.
If you're putting "I require H1-B sponsorship" on your resume, you might as well print below it:
"I am aware that the visa process poses considerable paperwork and expense, so I'll be grateful for a job, I will work for considerably less than an American can afford to, and I am legally constrained from jumping to another opportunity after you've trained me, unlike those fickle Americans who bail as soon as they decide you're company sucks."
America outlawed indentured servitude with the 13th Amendment. It's time to stop pretending that a worker who can be deported at a moment's notice isn't subject to a coercive employment situation.
The gall of Americans to feel that our government owes us anything. This is going to be a karma burn, but I feel so heated about it, I'm willing to take the chance.
Its called The Market Economy and Capitalism. The whole US economy is built around the presumption that if you can increase supply by lowering costs then do it. All that matters is the profit at the end of the day, and American Workers are Human Capital.
Capital should under all economic doctrines be replaced by capital that is cheaper and can work more efficiently.
This is exactly what the H1B workers do for the US economy, so as far as the government is concerned (especially our current administration) this is a fantastic thing.
This isn't how I personally feel (guess I'm not so right winged) but its how most business people feel that I have met over the last year or so.
`find / -name "*your_base*" -exec chown us:us {} \;`
Sun's board and shareholders would do good to fire the management of the company. Sun has never made good revenues from software development efforts and their hardware/OS isn't anything you can't get from IBM or HP at competitive prices.
Their stock is down under 4.00 and headed for the penny stock market.
They gave away the one good software product they have..Java..and the fact that it's become a better product over time is due to the contributions of developers from other companies...the ones that make profits from it.
McNealy's MS bashing is the same failed management defined strategy used by Jobs at Apple in the 80's and Netscape in the 90's. Apple took a big fall after that and we all know where Netscape is. Bashing the competition as a sole marketing strategy for your new product is a sorry excuse for a marketing campaign. I don't doubt that their new 'web services ide' isn't just as much hype as their previous attempts at software product development done without the assistance of engineers from more competent companies and put up for sale.
The fact that multiple former employees are bringing suit is just a PR burn undoubtedly created by bad management decisions. It just shows a complete lack of loyalty between Sun and it's employees and given the debacles at Eron/Worldcom etc it's that's just plain bad PR for the management of the company.
The strength and quality of a company's products is definitely reflected in it's relationship with its employees and requires maintaining loyalty from a company.
Laying people off isn't just bad PR, it shows an incompetent management team that is incapable of marketing and selling products...and obviously too stupid to keep the people that make the products making them. The fact is the management team is unable to get people to produce good quality products that customers need and desire and get those products marketed and sold and that's why they call upon the God Economy and use it as an excuse for their own failure.
The fact is computer systems are used to increase productivity and income so a bad economy should be a better market for computer systems.
Here's the catch, composer777...
The H1-B didn't come about because of lassez-faire, capitalist economics. It came about because of GOVERNMENT REGULATION. The government passed a law which made it possible for companies to hire foreign workers and pay them below market wages. Because H1-B workers can't switch jobs easily, they have no leverage in negotiating salarys. In effect, this is govermnent subsidy that benefits corporations.
I would argue that the solutions is to have the government stop passing regulations and give H1-B workers the freedom to ask for a raise or leave for a better job.
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