Slashdot Mirror
Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
What is H1-B? Is this the Visa that allows foriegn nationals to work in the US in high tech jobs?
rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
So where were you when Halliburton et. al. were all moving their hq's to Bermuda to dodge taxes on all that government money they're profiting from?
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
Wow, you really need to look into the history of the labour movement. Can I recommend "The Road To Wigan Pier" by George Orwell. It'll show you just how "ethical" companies can be when they're not up against a powerful union.
Businessweek says employers have lots of loopholes, not just H1-B
Besides it being a tough environment to work in (almost all communication was in Chinese, most of the engineers spoke little to no english and my Manderin sucks except for curses), it also meant that I ended up doing all the traveling even though it wasn't in my job description. It made me miserable -- I'm just not the sort of person who enjoys flying to client sites on 24 hour notice, working in someone else's machine room, being away from home alot and etc.
I stayed for the same reasons as you, but was eventually laid off for not coming in on Christmas day. Trust me: keep the job for now, but start looking around heavily. There are other jobs out there if you're willing to put in the work to look (aka, don't just hit Monster). I spent five months unemployed and burned through 98% of my savings, but it was worth every second and every penny to be happy at work again and have stabilized my relationships with my family.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
The United States, quite frankly, has a right to protect its own interests (i.e. American workers having jobs) in cases where companies are hiring workers who will work and live in its own borders. All this about it being justified because third world developers will work for less is a bunch of crap, quite frankly.
.com bust, those people are gradually returning to other lines of work, and I'd say the quality of the average American programmer is actually going up because of this. I can attest after having had to find a new job a year ago (and a tough time doing so even with a CS degree from an accredited U. and 2 years exp.), there are a large number of very qualified American high tech workers available.
Your argument holds if the company is based in some other country, and is told by its government to hire only American workers. Obviously there is no justice there.
I'll say again, the United States government has a right, perhaps even a mandate, to protect American jobs for Americans. After all, if our government is not out to protect the interests of its people, what good is it? The United States government was _founded_ on the very idea that the reason for its existence is to serve the interests of its people. Clearly allowing jobs generated by American companies, on American soil to be given to foreigners when qualified American workers are available would not be protecting the interests of the American people.
I also disagree with your assessment "...the quality of american programmers going down...". Though a number of unqualified American programmers exist after the
Overall, I'd say your post is tainted by your own bias. Consider if the same situation were occurring in your own country. Would you want your government to allow jobs in your country to be filled by low paid foreigners, or would you rather your government protected your interests?
// harborpirate
// Slashbots off the starboard bow!
Here are some things I perceive to be misconceptions about H1B's:
1) H1B's can work for a very low wage
A) FALSE: The dept of labor has a prescribed minimum wage for H1B's.
Anecdote: A company that I know had a paycut, but did not cut some of the H1'B salaries because they would then fall under the dept of labor's limit.
2) H1B's are equivalent to slavery
A) FALSE: They come on their own wish. They can leave to their country whenever they want to (often much richer, 'cuz the spare money saved here equates a large amount in, say, India).
For instance, one could live in many parts of India for over a year comfortably with 5 to 10k dollars. So, if someone saved up 100k in a six year job stunt in US, he/she is set for life in a poor country.
3) H1B's are coming from exploitative conditions
A) FALSE: Many are highly educated in their countries, often coming from families placed higher in the social/economical hierarchy. The really poor ones in India, for example, are *really* *really* poor.
4) H1B's fear being sent back to inhumane conditions
A) FALSE: Many companies in India, for example, are looking for US trained/US experienced employees for handling outsourced projects. The competition may be tough though
1. Sun loses suit...
US companies have to hire us folks; competitive pressures force innovation to stay competitive or they die/merge/go bankrupt...
2. Sun wins suit/has it dismissed...
As more jobs move overseas, domestic markets dry up (who is working? who can buy?). Watching the US market die is not good for a company...will lead to global unemployment...
I have no qualms with new jobs being created overseas (hey, that's capitalism at it's best), but reducing headcount (and hence customers) in your biggest market is not too swift...
My vote: first option for existing jobs and get innovative. The US didn't get this dominant (economically) simply by copying what others do...we figured out how to do it better and new ways to do it (quick nod to Britain and the EC members for various technologies-like radar and jet engines-that we licensed and enhanced)...
And if a company can't innovate, should they be left to die? Maybe...
But one thing that must happen is that company need to focus more on their long-term survival instead of always pushing to improve short-term profits. This is a major driving force behind this exodus, and it will continue to kill many companies until this unhealthy view stops. Profit is essential for a company, but not at the expense of it's future.
How to change focus, you might ask? More R&D but also have management really monitor it; and have marketing do real market analysis, not sales and sales support.
Look back in the pre-80's business and economics textbooks...they had it right and it still is right...
Supreme Granter of Doctor of Obviology Letters ("A FIRM Command of the Obvious")
I worked at Sun a few years back ... and one of the factors
that led to me quitting was when my (Indian) Director kept
promoting Indian co-workers over more-deserving non-Indians.
(Another was being fed up with
an organization that was so focussed on empire building
rather than delivering what customers kept asking for.
But that, and other such reasons, would be offtopic.)
It was clear bias ... these were people
that didn't have a track record of producing results.
They did have a clear record of obstructing other
workers who did produce the results
consistently, on-time, under-budget, and high
quality (low bug-count etc); results that successfully
got the company into some rather big markets.
These were significant promotions (E-12 for
those of you who know what that means), given
to folk with track records of not being innovative,
delivering late, and having big overruns and
buggy results. (Quick quiz: Which approach
is better for the bottom line? Which is better
for empire building?) The managers
in the groups hushed some of the promotions
up for months,
since they were so obviously unfair to other people
who were clearly more deserving.
(But who didn't happen to be Indian, like that Director.)
And yes, I know exactly how the "Indian Contractors" end up being so popular. Part of it is that they can be hired/fired on short notice; another is that they're relatively cheap. And then, big surprise, they have a leg up on becoming full-time ... as opposed to someone
who didn't need a visa, but wasn't already
"part of the team". Then lo and behold, when it
comes time to cut costs, do you think the lower-paid
workers are at the top of the layoff list? Even if the law
about their visa status says they should be???
To be clear: I've had plenty of Indian co-workers I'd work with again. Some of them were a pleasure to work with. But never would I work with that director who had such blatant biases in promotion policy; and never with the people that got such undeserved promotions.
With the Human Resources department backing such actions in at least one part of the company, I can't possibly believe that one of these lawsuits shouldn't eventually succeed.
Q: "Why not form a union?"
A:
www.sage.org -- Systems Administrators Guild
www.programmersguild.org -- Programmers Guild
www.ipgnet.org -- International Programmers Guild
Now the question becomes, are these guilds really unions in the full sense of the word, are there tasks that must be done to make it a legal guild..
The harder problem is getting companies to hire union workers if its a non-union shop.
-- Hey, what the hell, it's only slashdot..
1. Employer is requred by law to advertise the position, a job already filled by an H1-B holder. These ads are easy to identify, they are very, very specific, and are low-cost small-type ads. They specify US citizenship required.
2. Clueless folks that can't smell these ads send in resumes.
3. Employer is required to document why each and every respondent doesn't qualify.
3a. Some resumes are so far off that an HR drone can check a box and file the resume in a drawer.
3b. Hiring manager (ie, the schmuck knowns as "yours truly") gets to phone interview all the rest. Are you a US citizen? No? Buh-bye. Then a list of very specific questions, all referencing the ad. No recent experience with very specific CAD tool? Buh-bye. Schmuck checks appropriate box, ships stack of paper back to HR.
4. Immigration lawyer completes paperwork.
At my employer, salaries for H1-B were the same as anyone else. Nothing except "what have you done lately?" mattered at salary time. We had a lot of H1-B's, and a lot of open reqs, so no jobs were going to H1-B's that would not have gone to citizens. But of course, times were different then....ie: hot. I'd hate to see the stack of resumes an H1-B ad would pull today.
...here is a good deal of the comment content defending the H1B program that simply skirts reality.
AZspot
There is an inaccuracy in that Boston Globe article.
In the article, the author stated that Sun's cofounder, Vinod Khosla, said on 60 Minutes "that at Sun, people from India 'are favored over almost anybody else'." This quote has been taken out of context. The 60 Minutes piece in question was a report on a very prestigious technical college in India, the Indian equivalent of MIT. When Mr. Khosla said certain people were favored, he was referring specifically to graduates of that university, not to Indian people in general. If you read the transcript you will see this. His statement was no different than saying Harvard Law School graduates are favored at law firms.
It's a small but important point.