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Too Much Free Software

An anonymous reader writes "The plethora of Free Software applications available today, none working perfectly, is a problem which stands in the way of major adoption of Linux on the desktop. In order to conquer the desktop, we have to stand united. Read the article on Freshmeat."

38 of 754 comments (clear)

  1. one app, one desktop, one united front by mekkab · · Score: 4, Insightful

    hog wash.

    If you want a bunch of people to work on one thing until completion, PAY THEM.

    Otherwise you get what you get- a sea of productivity that comes and goes in fits and spurts. you also get a lot of different ideas on how to approach the same problem.

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
    1. Re:one app, one desktop, one united front by buffer-overflowed · · Score: 4, Informative

      Okay, let's see if I can sum this up for you.

      Let me first make the define libraries. Libraries are, sort of, predefined routines to save programmers time. The windows equivalent is the DLL file. Only under Linux drivers are either compiled into the OS or are modules that can be plugged in.

      What most consider the Linux operating system consists of the Kernel, and the GNU tools at it's core. The entire system is exceptionally modular in nature.

      The kernel handles everything from memory management, to task scheduling. It is the grand lord brain, translating everything from the plebian programs into action on the system. The kernel by itself would just sit there and do nothing, with no way to interact with the system.

      The GNU tools are tools for interacting with the system, managing files, etc.

      Everything else is stacked on top of this.

      X is a series of libraries and programs that provide the core of the GUI for a linux system.

      On top of this you stack various libraries which do various things within the X framework, GNOME and KDE are a set of tools and libraries that extend X and make it pretty.

      Then you have programs that utilize all of the above.

      So your typical program, like say OpenOffice has a series of dependancies on up the tree. Some of them require additional libraries.

      This is why, with a little tweaking, you can have a BSD Kernel running a "Linux" program. Each part for the most part can be substituted for something else with a little work.

      I hope I didn't ramble or was nonsensical there.

      --
      The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
  2. We do it for fun, don't we? by Kolenkow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Like someone said at Digital Illusions: "when 90% of the work is done, 90% remains". Maybe he's not that good at calculus, but he has a point.
    It's much more fun to start on a new project, or to add extra features, than to make those existing ones work perfectly.

    --
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even if you take into account Hofstadter's Law
    1. Re:We do it for fun, don't we? by arivanov · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bollocks.

      Depends what are you talking about.

      If you are talking about a desktop editor - yes.

      If you are talking abot a 1000000 dollar application that is to be used by 20-30 potential customers - no. ClearSales, SAP, telco level oice switching etc are a good example. They require up to 3-7 million per year worth of extensive fiddling with them to keep them working and useful for whoever bought them.

      So stop seeing all software as a personal editor. It aint.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    2. Re:We do it for fun, don't we? by onion2k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We do it for fun, don't we?

      Yes. And while you remain doing it for fun, I'm not going to risk my business on it. Noone is going to use an application that isn't either finished and final, or beta but likely to stick around. 95% of OSS projects are neither. So don't expect people to ditch Windows and its range of associated finished software anytime soon.

    3. Re:We do it for fun, don't we? by mccalli · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Noone is going to use an application that isn't either finished and final, or beta but likely to stick around. 95% of OSS projects are neither.

      Leaves 5% that are. For business use then, stick with that 5% then, which are usually the bigger projects like the Linux kernel, Gnome/KDE, Mozilla, Evolution etc.. That's no different to having a standard 'approved suppliers' list.

      Cheers,
      Ian

    4. Re:We do it for fun, don't we? by rabidcow · · Score: 4, Funny

      So stop seeing all software as a personal editor. It aint.

      I take it you don't use emacs.

  3. Isnt that the 90-10 rule? by swb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've always called it the 90-10 rule. 90% of the work takes 10% of the time, 10% of the work takes 90% of the time.

  4. One good point by nath_o_brien · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Most of the article seemed to be space-filler but one good point I have to agree with is

    Sourceforge should start removing projects with less than 1% activity for the last six months (every week, they could propose several projects to be removed, and allow a month for the activity to increase)

    I'm sick of so many going-nowhere projects cluttering up the categories. Most were probably a spark of an idea that didn't go anywhere - and never will - because its originator has decided to concentrate their attention elsewhere.

    It should be a case of good housekeeping on Sourceforge's behalf if nothing else.

    --
    - Welcome the coming of the New World Odour
    1. Re:One good point by jdavidb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree. We don't go around the internet insisting unused pages disappear. Instead we just insist that those irrelevant features not show up in our search queries -- we use Google.

      What sourceforge needs is a better search engine, showing the most relevant results first. Then you'll never get down to the clutter unless you want to.

    2. Re:One good point by bwt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Instead of removing them, there should be a better filtering ability based on project activity. A project which hasn't moved in 6 months could be labelled "dormant" and if it hasn't moved in 1 year it should be labelled "abandoned".

  5. Nothing New by turgid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Every so often yet another article like this comes along. They all make some wrong fundamental assumptions. Namely (1) All Open Source/Free Software can be lumped together and treated like the output from a traditional company, (2) that no one should develop their own programs for the fun of it even if another already exists and that (3) all such software is governed by some sort of committee (or shoukd be) that decides what should be writtem and who should write it. Face it, it's up to the Linux and *BSD distributions to pick and choose which applications, utilities, GUI's etc. get provided and it's up to the users to pick and choose what they like and what suits them best. This article completely misses the point of freedom, Freedom and the Free Market.

  6. Re:And it seems like everyone has pet software.. by goldspider · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I don't necessarily think that integrated packages are the answer, because they inevitably lead to bloat (MS Office anyone?).

    What would really be of interest to me would be more modular software packages. Start out with some core functionality, but instead of integrating other features by adding to that core, just make add-ons that are easy to add to and remove from that core.

    That way people (and businesses too!) can use as much or as little as they want, with the flexibility to adapt to their needs.

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
  7. Bug by missing000 · · Score: 4, Funny

    You seem to be missing an include statement.

    1. Re:Bug by cushty · · Score: 4, Funny

      And the fact that it should be int main(int argc, char *argv[]) but who am I to quibble.

  8. Re:Please. by transient · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I think perfection is flexible in this case. You're absolutely right, most software doesn't work perfectly (except maybe "Hello World"). But lets ignore petty semantic details for a moment and listen to what Marius has to say, because it's spot-on.

    I like Linux a lot. I'm in charge of a systems group and Linux is running on almost all of our servers. In the data center, it's rock solid and it works -- but after running it on my workstation for two years, I can't say the same about Linux on the desktop. It mostly works, but mostly isn't good enough. Every single application has at least one non-functional detail that makes me want to climb the wall with my teeth. And instead of fixing those last few problems, people decide to start their own projects from scratch. That is stupid. It's a waste of time and it only serves the developer's ego.

    --

    irb(main):001:0>
  9. Re:This article is old... by arvindn · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Absolutely.

    The article is a TROLL. And it was completely shredded in teh comments on freshmeat.

    For instance: someone pointed out that the author is a gnome contributor. No wonder he wants to do away with Qt. Yes, you read that right: author wants free software developers to abandon Qt. Claims that "Qt still has licensing problems, being non-Free for commercial applications" - the fact is that Qt is licensed under the GPL. So it is perfectly fine for commercial applications. However, if you want to build proprietary application on top of it, you have to pay TrollTech.

    My favorite is this:

    Sourceforge should start removing projects with less than 1% activity for the last six months

    This is just incredibly stupid. It is the perfect way to kill people's enthusiasm for free software. And to show you how little thought the author has put into it: if you remove the bottom 1% (1% == 1 percentile), then the next 1% will become the bottom 1%, which will be removed next and so on.

    Go read the comments on freshmeat for more reasons why the article sucks.

  10. Re:Please. by ahooton · · Score: 4, Informative

    main()
    {
    printf("Hello world\n");
    exit(0);
    }

    Now you have seen it.

    BZZZZZ! Wrong! Don, tell him what he could have won....

    There are always ways programs are not perfect. For instance, the program above does not take in to account that stdout may not be available -- if that happens (it does, trust me), the program will either not give the intended result or it will die altogether (depending on the system it's built/run on).

    The perfect program does not exists, not even yours...

  11. Bullshit by 0x0d0a · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What we DO need is for the ones that exist to be working properly and have all those useless developers (who are wasting time forking new projects and reinventing the wheel) adding their features to existing projects. It's not about fame and having your name as the author. It's about the world!

    Contrary to many users' expectations, for most authors it's not primarily about the world. Free software is about having fun writing what you want to write.

    It's kind of gross to come along and find all these end users demanding foo, blah, and blargh.

    "We need more integrated software". "Free software authors need to combine GNOME and KDE so that my desktop is nicer". "Blah blah blah me me me". You want that, buy a non-free program. Then you're paying the developers, and can tell them what to do.

    Free software is about developers, not users.

    1. Re:Bullshit by Ponty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Free software is about developers, not users."

      And that's why it sucks to use.

  12. Not too much, just too obfuscated by Arethan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think that there are too many free software projects out there. Have you ever gone to download.com and just looked around at all of the thousands of Windows applications? Many many of them perform the same function. Some better than others, some are innovative, some are not. That doesn't seem to stop people from downloading and using them.

    Quantity isn't the problem. The problem is quality. Well, percieved quality anyways. Unix has a different paradigm when it comes to software installation. That's a fact. There is no 'Program Files' folder that everything is installed to. Of course, there's always /opt! :) Not to mention the lack of automated installers for most projects. The installers exist, people just don't use them. I'll admit, some of them are a little lacking (a scriptable installer ala InstallShield could be helpful), but I have plenty of Linux games that use those simple installers, and they work great, despite kernel upgrades and distribution changes.

    IMHO, people just rely on ./configure too much these days. I've always felt that build scripts like ./configure were useful for the developers and hackers, but the general public really shouldn't have to have gcc installed just to install new software.

    It also doesn't help that we still don't have a hard definition of what a useable base installation of Linux entails. Yes, we have LSB, but it really doesn't seem to cover enough ground. They waste a lot of time documenting exported functions, when really they should simply state library versions, and maybe even keep a copy of the appropriate source (even a precompiled copy?) available on their site so there is no question about what version they are referring to.

    In addition to fixing the LSB, distros really should start obeying it. It certainly would make things easier for us end users. Is RedHat 9 even LSB compatible at all? I never see anything on their website about it, but I've continually heard from various sources that "the next version is LSB compliant".

    I'm sure my remarks have pissed more than a few people off, who will undoubtedly attack my credibility. So for the record, Linux could stay non standardized for all eternity, and I'd still have no problem using it myself. I'm only putting these arguments forth since I feel that they are the real reason that free software isn't as mainstream as we would all like.

    Rebuttles and counter arguments are, of course, always welcome. :)

    Cheers!

  13. Argument by Soviet Grocery Store by timothy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    (At least that's what I call this.)

    The argument that there's "too much choice" (and people make this argument in a lot of domains, not just software) has a certain merit. Choice is difficult; every day we face a series of tradeoffs. In areas with fewer choices, it's sometimes simpler for that reason to actually select one over the others.

    However, it seems that this argument also has an underlying assumption that there is a single, common goal which "we" could all achieve if we would only just let emacs and vi have a final, conclusive deathmatch, and if we could make every GUI user draw straws between KDE and GNOME (and WindowMaker and the various *boxes, too, but they'd get fewer straws) so all this unproductive wheel-reinvention strife would go away. If you think there is such a common goal, name it -- I bet good money that counterclaims would pop up to invalidate the claim :) I can think of several offhand. And let's face it, a lot of people just want to "stick it to Microsoft."

    The point (in my opinion, and noting that a more important metapoint is that your opinion may be different) is that the best outcome of having a real marketplace of ideas is not the construction of the perfect widget, but rather the constant, distributed reconsideration of what and how to do things. That means churn, and lots of broken eggs.* Maybe in the end you decide you don't even need the widget, because you've found another way to sufficiently increase your happiness by other means that spending your time in widgetland is a bad investment.

    If you think there too many choices in the world of software (leaving aside the question of how open the code is for a moment), there are lots of ways to *reduce* your choices without harming anyone else's ability to wade through them. Example one: here are lots of consultants who would love to trade your money, if you have some, for their time and expertise. You can specify what you want the resulting computer setup to do, and your consultant will attempt to create one in a way which a) makes him money yet b) is pleasing enough to you that you recommend him to your friends. Example two: in the free software world specifically, you can download and use any of several (sorry, choice again) of the stripped down distributions designed for efficiency, like Peanut Linux and ignore other things available. If it does *your* job, it does.

    Remember, UNIX was (in part) created because Thompson and Ritchie wanted to play a game. So they did it. What if they'd been hampered by a committee with a lot of predetermined goals about "what the world really needs"? Could be that the world would now be perfect thanks to T&R's Famine Reduction Machine, but I think it's more likely that all the cool things their desire to play a game with has led to (including the OS I'm typing from right now) would most likely just not exist.

    That said, there are a lot of dead projects on SourceForge which should probably be spidered and marked for death in as non-destructive a way as possible. Like sending out multiple notices to all listed project heads in an attempt to make sure that dead-seeming projects really *are* dead.

    timothy

    *Eggs are good scrambled, until you create the ommellette which best pleases you, or egg custard, or goldenrod eggs ...

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  14. Excellent Article by Spiked_Three · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He's right - whenever I search for an OSS solution, I usually find 5-10 half done applications. Seldom do I find finished polished product.
    And, on the subject of stability; The OSS crowd has got to get off the soap boax that OSS code is more stable and secure. It is not. Microsoft has billions of dollars in the bank, they can make their product however stable they need to be. The quality of their released products is calculated and managed. The arguments that OSS is 'better' is only hurting the movement. As soon as OSS software starts to infringe on MS becusause of stability, then MS will change their tragets and OSS is back to playing catch up again.
    What OSS needs to succeed is complete and functional applications with complete documentation. Perhaps if OSDN would step up and manage the submissions of near identical projects rather than blindly accept all (quanity not quality), OSS could make some headway.

    --
    slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
  15. Re:Yeah but by spinkham · · Score: 5, Informative

    Film GIMP(now CinePaint) is NOTHING like Adobe Premiere. Adobe Premiere is a non-linear video editor, CinePaint is a high dynamic range picture editor, basically just the Gimp with 64-bit RGBA color capability. Cinelerra is a non-linear editor, but not quite on par with Premiere IMHO. Kino and kdenlive are promising projects I have yet to use to do that same thing.

    --
    Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
  16. Re:Please. by rf0 · · Score: 4, Funny

    We we arguing the Hello World program and actually came to the conclusion that if it doesn't have an output then it might fail. The only program we though was bug free was "return 0"

    Rus

  17. Re:Yeah but by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 4, Insightful
    To all you nay-sayers out there: I want you to name one application out there that does not have a full-featured alternative in Linux

    MS Outlook.

    ...and for many offices, that's the deal-breaker right there. Sure, Evolution approximates it's look, and offers some of the features, but a clone it ain't.

    This does not mean that individuals cannot get by with less (I was an Outlook user for years before I made the switch to Linux), but make no mistake that it is less.

    Look, there is an ancient Engineering statement that many of you must have heard:

    "Inexpensive, Fast, Good -- You May Choose Two."


    With OSS, the first is a condition, at its most extreme scale (Free!). It follows then, that the vast majority of the offerings will either be, err, incomplete, or evolving strongly over time (e.g., OO, KDE, Gnome).

    I found the tone of the article arrogant to the extreme. People contribute code to the movement because they are enthusiasts; if someone wants to write "yet another MP3 player," who's to say he can't? You want him to "focus on" an application about which he has less enthusiasm? Fine; we call that "work," so toss him some coin.

    My favorite line from the article: "fifteen minutes of fame on 'Freshmeat.'" Whoaa! Now there's an incentive, huh?

    (as an aside, do you find those "naysayers" whom you chide take you MORE or LESS seriously when you substitute those dollar signs for 'esses' everywhere? just curious...)
  18. Spot on by 0x0d0a · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Amen. The story totally ignores the way open source works.

    If you want a bunch of people to work on one thing until completion, PAY THEM

    Which can be to be on an Open Source project. However, the fact remains -- they need to be paid.

    This wave of users coming in, demanding a clone of Windows, not really caring about functionality, choice, the ability to see source, and just saying "I want idiot-proof editor! I want idiot-proof file browser! I want idiot-proof web browser! I want GNOME and KDE combined because they sound the same to me and I don't understand their internal structure! All developers should drop everything else and work on that, because that's what I want! Me me me me me!" piss me off.

    Most developers are working on their software because it's *fun* for them to write something the way *they* want to write something and try out their own ideas. Maybe learn something. Fulfilling the needs of a whiny end user who doesn't give a damn about anything but "cheap and Windows clone" is really far down on the list. If you submit some code to a project, you're *much* more likely to be listened to.

    I mean, seriously. Open source is about developers. It's generally not about users. And this misunderstanding is producing a lot of discontent. "Why are people writing all these stupid command line programs when I want a GUI program!"

    Here's the deal. If you want a feature and no one else is doing it, especially if it's been suggested over and over before already (merge GNOME/KDE, clone InstallShield), you're pretty much responsible for doing it yourself. If you can't write code, sorry. Open source developers are not a bunch of little "code fairies" that grant you your every wish. If you write *some* unrelated code for their project (or for other projects), developers are more likely to listen to requests. If your sole contribution to the OSS world is telling everyone on Slashdot that "Linux rules" or whatever, yes, you may get ignored.

    Now, do developers sometimes go out of their way to fulfill random end user requests? Sure, especially if they don't take too much work to implement. It *is* a source of pride to be more popular than commercial alternatives. However, it comes down to the fact that users frequently don't seem to understand that they're going up to talented people who are already volunteering their time and (very skilled labor) for particular goals and then trying to tell them what to do.

    As for "it's not about getting your name as the author in the credits", that's also false. Lots of people have had fun analyzing open source, because it's a weird social phenomon and in the news a lot. It's a gift-based culture, where you get fame in exchange for your work (in addition to other things). There's a *reason* volunteer OSS people don't like doing plumbing-type work on code. Recognition in exchange for code *is* important to most OSS developers.

    Finally, while coding is important to get respect and influence in the OSS world, it's not the only path. Artists are quite scarce, and folks like the free WorldForge project desperately want you. If you're maintaining the website for a project, that's going to grant you some influence in that project and others. If you do translations, that's good too. Not many people translating to Swahili.

    But if you just want to play Icewind Dale and don't want to pay anything for your software...well, the Open Source world probably isn't really a place that's going to be all that pleasant for you. Maybe, maybe one day. But not now. BSD and Linux simply don't fit you very well.

  19. Re:Please. by swb · · Score: 4, Funny

    It has other problems. Lack of international support, hard-coded text, no configuration options. Some users are demanding a GUI, KDE/Gnome support and a port to Java as well. I've even heard talk of a version that's capable of using MySQL.

    There's also some concern that Microsoft is going to release their own version with Palladium support.

  20. There are some valid points lost here by Sleepy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are some valid points here that should not be lost. Unfortunately they are being overlooked, while people complain about the author and his lack of tact.

    Controversial statements around here tend to get classified as trolls and flamebait, even when there's a point behind the ill-worded rant.

    Key point:
    Is there a LOT of overlapping, functionally incomplete and unpolished UNIX software? I would say without a doubt the answer is YES.

    Just consider the point and answer this question for yourself, without clouding the issue in emotion or the author's irritating language.

    Why do people start new projects, where one existed?
    How often do "new" free software projects (legally) "borrow" code and ideas from other projects?
    Do people learn MORE doing all the coding themselves, vs. learning to find a niche in an existing project?

    Assuming the main argument against consolidation is "fresh ideas" (not to under-represent other concerns or minimize this one..), assuming this, what steps could protect this ideal while at the same time minimizing code waste?

    Can this issue be put to rest *without* discouraging new ideas?

    People can blame this on GTK vs Qt, but the problem's more widespread than that. You can see this in the "mp3 jukebox" class, as well as "ad blockers", file-sharing clients, etc.

    I think part of the problem is ego, and I don't mean that in a BAD way (not entirely). If you disagree with a project design, why offer to rip the guts out and clean the code, all for someone who ultimately gets most credit?

    Another problem is immature (or missing) libraries. If someone is writing an ad-blocker, they need to: a) write their own proxy or plug into an existing one, b) create a table of regex's to block, c) create exception tables for allowing images that match the regex, but shouldn't be blocked, d) define a file format for the regex and URLs.

    It seems to me that there's an opening for a blocker-library that defines a common format. Then the ad blocker authors can focus on differentation: distributed/collobarative sharing of custom-block lists, user-management, language-of-choice, etc.

    Gphoto took this strategy and made a general-purpose library for cameras. It is used bt GTK/GNOME applications, -and- by *text* apps. A pity there are no KDE applications using gphoto. I haven't formed an opinion why this is so because I *don't* want to assume it's due to the "dirty name" (g-something).

    Another problem is KDE and GNOME themselves: they both lost focus on the core desktop, and are competing for a wider goal of "the UNIX API" for all desktop applications. It seems there's hope in the form of freedesktop.org defining small improvements in interoperability, but it's maddeningly slow progress. Furthermore, my understanding is these desktop libraries are not well supported for non-GUI applications: if you want to develop a curses-driven GUI for a GNOME or KDE-targeted library, good freakin luck to ya. The functionality doesn't always need to be bound to the widget/GUI stuff but mostly it is.

    Lastly, people can learn more by forming their own project and going it alone. That's perfectly valid to practice your coding skills, but there's also benefit in learning teamwork and diplomacy by joining a project (not to imply these are exclusive goals).

    (More examples?)
    "Back in the day" there were two main Napster clients for GNOME: Gnapster, and Lopster. There doesn't seem to be library (GNOME-specific or not) for general-purpose "nap/opennap" communication. These authors each poured long hours into usability and back-end functionality. The gui's were unique, but the back-end can't differ by very much. It would have improved things if GNOME and KDE shared some neutral libnap library.

    Just my thoughts. I'm not a real developer (I script :-) but I've been working with software for 20 years and been an SQA Engineer for the last 10. I've seen a lot of useful code go to rot (tho others have seen much, much more)

  21. How to interact with open source developers by 0x0d0a · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tips for interacting with OSS developers:

    * If a developer says he doesn't want to implement something, that's it. Arguing is pretty much certain to not convince him that he wants to implement it, and may tick him off towards you. If the developer isn't the maintainer (and hasn't said "my project will *not* contain this feature", just "I'm not going to write this"), you can try suggesting it to another or (far more likely to get code in) write it yourself.

    * Be *nice* to developers. They're smart people that are making good stuff that they're letting you use for free. People that jump on a project mailing list and say "Your program sucks because it doesn't do foo and bar and I'm not going to use it because of that...so your only chance to get me to use it is to add these features" *are* going to be ignored. The author is *not* going to help these people. If an author adds a feature you asked for *thank him*, no matter how trivial it is. The work, had you *paid* to have it done, would have cost a bundle, and the thanks is only another few lines of typing. If you've been using a piece of software for years, and email the mailing list or a developer for the first time, start out with a brief thanks for the software, and compliment them on whatever it is that you really like about it. Volunteer OSS developers aren't getting money, so their only pay is appreciation and the enjoyment of coding. The only pay you have influence over is appreciation. Don't stiff them. In the same vein, do not personally attack open source developers -- "You're stupid because you don't support postgres as your back end". If anything, it just discourages them from making more software. Everyone loses in that case.

    * If you have a question, first look at the FAQ, search google, and check the docs. Really. Definitely do not get angry if you just get flamed if you ask a FAQ on a mailing list. You may be able to get away with simply going to the vendor if you're paying money. Then some paid schmoe gets stuck on the support line listening to you. Open Source developers are generally interested in coding, not in doing support. Generally, support is not tons of fun. It also helps only a single person, whereas them writing even one line of code can benefit hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people -- generally not an efficient use of valuable developer time. Don't post to -devel mailing lists in the hope of getting developer attention and faster support. That *definitely* will get you ignored.

    * Don't use ultimatums. It doesn't help you, and it pisses *everyone* off. With software you're paying for, you are a customer. You have clout. In most cases, a volunteer open source developer doesn't give a damn whether Joe Blow uses his program or not, especially if Joe Blow wants extensive support. Saying "Change this feature or I'll use MySQL instead of Postgres to the Postgres developers is not going to get you anywhere." Actually, ultimatums are a stupid tactic even in conjuction with paid developers -- look at Larry McVoy constantly getting shit on the Linux mailing list. Regardless of whether you like him or not or want BK to be used, the constant threats to stop using his software just piss him off. If you don't want to use some software, don't.

    * If you can code at all, sending in a patch will get you lots of goodwill from developers.

    * Never send in bug reports that say "foo crashes" or "foo crashes randomly". You'll get ignored. If you get a segfault, hand in a stack trace (run gdb and then type bt). "Foo crashes randomly" isn't going to help a programmer a whit. If he hasn't seen the symptoms, he's going to consider the possibility that you might have bad hardware or a broken setup. If he *has* seen the symptoms, it doesn't add anything new.

    * Most mailing lists are English. This can be hard for non-English speakers, since they may not get the nuances, but be polite. If you're asking for something, use common courtesy. Say "please". Don't lots of exclamation points. Don't use all caps. Don't use "HELP ME!!!" as your subject line -- be descriptive. Indians posting to English mailing lists always seem to come off as quite rude to me, though I assume it's simply a lack of experience with English.

  22. How about 'finished'? by mccalli · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Suppose the software actually does what it was designed for, and no longer needs development? Under the scheme proposed, that project would be labelled 'abandoned'.

    That can't be right. It's like judging programmers on lines of code per month all over again...

    Cheers,
    Ian

  23. Starting something is easy, maintaining is not by RogerWilco · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's widely known in the software engineering field that Maintenance of a software product constitutes op to 80% of it's cost.
    (source:"OO and Classical Software Engineering", S.R.Schach)
    This is because the further a program has developed, the harder it
    get's to maintain and to prevent regression fault intoduction.

    From experience I know it's easy to whip something up esp. in a RAD
    environment quite fast. But getting from a product that does what it
    has to do most of the time, to a product that includes:
    manuals, error-handling, fault tollerance, user-friendly GUI,
    help-files, consistent clear code and design, well documented code,
    is very hard, and takes a lot of effort. A lot of coders are not even trained
    to take these points into account when programming in my opinion.

    In my view that's why a lot of OS projects never get the above list
    completed, even if they do have most of the desired core functions.

    Adriaan Renting.

    --
    RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
  24. Re:Yeah but by jd142 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I found the tone of the article arrogant to the extreme. People contribute code to the movement because they are enthusiasts; if someone wants to write "yet another MP3 player," who's to say he can't? You want him to "focus on" an application about which he has less enthusiasm? Fine; we call that "work," so toss him some coin.

    The article isn't saying you can't right yam (Yet Another MP3 player) it is saying that if your goal is to help foster the widespread acceptance of OSS, then your talents and energies are put to better use by perfecting and polishing an existing MP3 player than in writing your own from scratch.

    And this makes sense, at least to me.

  25. I wasn't impressed. by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Yes, I think he needs a re-think. There are a few points that I want to respond to.

    The purpose of Free Software is not to replace Microsoft Windows. Individuals and companies that are involved in Free Software may have that goal, even me, but not the developers of the niche software he criticizes. There is no point in his telling them not to work on another editor. They want to make editors, not MS Windows killers. They are motivated to do for free what they want to do, not what he wants them to do.

    Our diversity is our strength, not our weakness. Free Software's strategic marketing paradigm is a massively parallel drunkard's walk filtered by a Darwinistic process. We make gains because we can bypass the failures of a more narrow strategic marketing directon, which would have us work on only one solution to any problem. The problem with one solution is that marketing has no crystal ball, strategic marketers are no more accurate in general than stock-pickers. Their chosen direction is rarely the best. It's better to let coders control their own multiple directions. One of them will get it right.

    He also gets into the dreadfully common error of considering window managers to be GUI desktops.

    Bruce

  26. You Show Your Colours Mr. Spot on by fygment · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Fulfilling the needs of a whiny end user who doesn't give a damn about anything but "cheap and Windows clone" is really far down on the list. "

    The arrogance that permeates this statement is sadly too common in Open Source. How can you despise people and then expect them to buy in to your vision? Unfortunately the impression it leaves is that Open Source is a self-serving ego trip for individuals who really aren't at all interested in the public good.

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  27. Hey, I liked the article by TopherC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know that this article has major problems, and my feathers got ruffled when I read "Motif, Tcl/Tk, wxWindows? Die!" Those are all great toolkits (except he meant to say Tk since Tcl is a programming language).

    BUT, did no one here actually get the author's point? Seems like everyone just fixated on the details and ignored any possible value in the article. I don't think many people disagreed that there are too many audio interfaces in Linux that are (nearly) equally capable. Research is fun, but should every single Linux *user* need to spend hours trying to figure out why sound works in one program but not in another, and research the complete configuration of and relationships between OSS, aRts, ALSA, etc.? I have things basically working on my computer now, but I still don't completely understand it all.

    Maybe the point of the article is that developing an alternative piece of software instead of working with existing code is a matter that should be seriously considered, because the cost of doing this is much larger than one might imagine. To the extent that you are successful, you would be detracting from the existing alternative software.

    Probably there are two bad reasons why new projects are started when they should not be. One is that people would rather write code than read it. I guess that's psychological -- when you're writing code you feel like you're making progress, but not when reading code. The other reason is personal glory. "This is MY project!"

    So, we need to be sensitive to these bad reasons, and deeply consider if what we want to have is really funudamentally different from any other OS project out there? If the differences can be overlooked or overcome in any way, then it's better to work on an existing project and/or with an existing toolset.

    That said, there are also good reasons for starting from scratch, but often an existing project can do that on its own. If a change of paradigm or code structure makes sense, as the project is becoming unwieldy, that can (and does) happen. But this process is motivated by the growth of an existing project, so again even if you have some fundamentally new ideas and really want to write "Ans" by yourself, try working with sendmail first, and maybe your contribution might be the impotice for another healthy re-design.

  28. Why so many apps.... by cyberassasin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, I believe it is the simple theory that most like working for themselves, rather than working for others. Also, I tend to believe that many who have started a project will want to control the project to the point of being stiffling to those that may want to contribute. And when you are contributing time and energy for free, you surely don't want to have to deal with getting shot down on ideas and implmentations. So I doubt we will see a convergance of efforts on any project. The ones that will succeed are those that are managed by people that have a good understanding of collaborative work ethics, and can manage people and resources effectively. And having contributors that have a common goal in mind.

    :

    --
    Who is the master of foxhounds, and who says the hunt has begun? -Pink Floyd
  29. Re:Yeah but by skt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, the article does say that if you don't do development work on KDE, gnome, blackbox, and some other WM.. that your efforts have been wasted. If I was a developer for Yet Another Windows Manager, I would be pissed off.

    I think it is obvious to the readers of this site that choice is a big problem for mass adoption of linux-based desktop operating systems. But so what? linux-based desktop systems do not have to be adopted by the general population. Putting this article on freshmeat seems a little strange to me because freshmeat has always been a site that encourages developers to upload their small programs and utilities for others to use. People develop most of those because they think they will be useful and for fun, there is no call for demeaning the developers who write these things in their free time. Maybe if the article had been written with a better tone it would have been better.