Pinnacle, Online Grades, Skipping School and More

Ishkibble writes "The Matrin County School Board has a new way of post a student's grades online for a parent to check. Pinnacle is the name of the program, a simple java applet. Not only does Pinnacle log student's grades, but also attendance and conduct. The way grades are accessed are by inputting the first 6 digits of your social security number and the first 5 letters of your last name. With a logon system as simple as this, one has to question the security and privacy of the students. This has been making my life a living hell for the past 2 months, every night my parents go on and check to see if i have any homework and won't let me do anything till it's done"

Comments

Probably Good and Bad

[abcxyz]

I agree that the security of the system is lacking and probably wouldn't take a lot of effort to circumvent.

However, as a parent, having access to my child's progress in school without continually bugging all 7 teachers is an excellent idea. It gives me an opportunity to see if he needs help without waiting 9 weeks. (Mind you, he has NO problem with asking for help when he needs it.)

You indicate that your parents are putting you through hell daily to make sure you've done your homework -- is this an indication that you've had problems getting it done in the past? Maybe if the HW is finished before the fun is started, they might lighten up a bit in the future.

-- Rick

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Captain_Stupendous]

LOL. Typical parent's response. It's interesting to see the difference in age of Slashdot readers. Parents think this is a great idea, and kids think it's an invasion of privacy. As with all things, this is obviously not a black & white issue.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Gefiltefish11]

Remember that kids (aka "minors;" those under the age of 18) have, with a few examples that are far afield of this issue, virtually no right to privacy where their parents are concerned.

If a school system can post grades, homework, progress, etc. on the web and the parents want that, then this may be a good thing. However, it is important to recognize that families and parents have a right to privacy from outside sources and the "security" scheme for this system seems sorely lacking.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[st0rmcold]

I am in between this issue, I can see the parent side, they want the best for their children, which is completly normal, and moral.

But on the other hand, you have the child, might be trying hard, might not, but with this, you're kinda taking all the trust away, by not believing them, so I feel for the kids that actually do their homework and have their parents watching over every turn, it's gonna bring feelings of resentment.

The child's best interest is not always to be watched like a hawk, sometimes it's to let him/her make a few mistakes and realize the importance of such things. Without realizing this, you can force them until they are like 14-15 and if they never realized it on their own, they will revolt, and you will have completly lost the battle, even if you're original intent was to give the child reason.

It's a form of over-protection, and it has had very detrimental effects in the past.

Very touchy issue indeed.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[st0rmcold]

If I had children, I would give them enough credit not to look at that site, but I would make sure they know I can. Scared straight method works wonders, while leaving them a sense of being able to take care of themselves.

Morally I wouldn't be able to spy on my child, you can walk a a horse to water but you can make him drink, the responsibility of the parent is to teach the child why he should walk to the water, and that he should have a drink, but not stuff their head in the water, because that's only a temporary solution.

I know I will get some resentment from parents because I am not a parent, but I do have some sense in the issue, and we are trying :) so soon my opinion will be valid.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[kalimar]

But on the other hand, you have the child, might be trying hard, might not, but with this, you're kinda taking all the trust away, by not believing them, so I feel for the kids that actually do their homework and have their parents watching over every turn, it's gonna bring feelings of resentment.

The child's best interest is not always to be watched like a hawk, sometimes it's to let him/her make a few mistakes and realize the importance of such things. Without realizing this, you can force them until they are like 14-15 and if they never realized it on their own, they will revolt, and you will have completly lost the battle, even if you're original intent was to give the child reason.

Good points. Your conclusion is a bit misguided though. The system provides the possibility that parents will abuse it and become overprotective and instill resentful feelings in their children. However, if it's used correctly, it can help parents track their child's progress, figure out if their child might need help in a particular area, and know when their child is improving without involving the teacher.

All of these are good things. Parents don't need to take immediate action on things they see there. However, if they see that their child has homework one day and their child says they did it, yet didn't turn it in, then the parent can know immediately.

Likewise, if parents see that their child is doing well in subject A, but consistently poorly in subject B despite obvious effort, then they have a choice of actions they can take. If they know the subject well enough, they can sit down with their child and help them out. They can talk with their child about getting a tutor (or just get one without talking to their child about it). They can talk to the teacher and get more information. etc etc etc.

Personally, I never had a real problem in school so I don't think my parents would've had much use for this system. But I was also a tutor and I know that the parents of some of the kids I tutored would've loved something like this so that their kids could get help sooner.

My reaction to this system is: "Great! Yippee! Yahoo!!! Ok. Enough happiness. Now the school system needs to educate the parents on how to use this tool to benefit their children the most."

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[simong_oz]

Very touchy issue indeed.

I (respectfully of course!) disagree - I don't think this is at all a touchy issue except from the point of view of the student. The age of student this seems to be talking about is well below age 18, which is when (generalising I know, but in most places) children become adults in the eyes of the law and no longer come under the "cover" of their parents. At this sort of age, the parents have every right to know their son/daughter(s) marks. Now, if this system was implemented at a university level, where the students are old enough that their parents no longer have a (legal anyway) right to this information, that would be a touchy issue.

How the parents choose to use this information is up to them - I agree that checking this every single day is going to harbour resentment, but that choice is for the parents to make.

However, the security of this system from the outside world is what we should be focussing on, not the provision of information that parents have been seeking for quite some time (and, in my opinion, have every right to).

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[mgessner]

Since you're a parent (I am as well) I'd think you'd be VERY interested in how your child is doing in school, and how he was doing in EVERY aspect of his life -- friends, classmates, activities, etc.

Yes, teens need privacy, and you need to give it to them when it's appropriate (when's it not appropriate? how about if he's up in his room with the doors locked smoking crack?).

However, you have the right and responsibility to help your child even in ways they don't comprehend as being beneficial.

While I'm certainly concerned about how lax the security is (since it'd be pretty easy to get at other students' grades), I don't feel sorry for this kid AT ALL, because his parents are making his life a living hell. POOR BABY!

Be thankful your parents GIVE A DAMN about you and are concerned enough to check up on you. There are MANY fatherless/motherless kids in the world who would LOVE to have a parent who would show them ANY concern at all.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[mangr3n]

The parents aren't simply "wanting what's best for their children." As a parent the depth of my responsibility toward my child is greater. I have a responsibility to the society and to my child to assist him or her in becoming a useful,productive member of society. One ready and able to deal with life on life's terms.

As such I am responsible for the example I set and the "propoganda" I push either through my actions or my words. Conversely, I am also responsible to evaluate the affects of my information and example on him or her. If there are problems, I need to adjust the message or example I'm sending to my child, so that he has the information he needs to make good decisions.

I really do have a right to know. Because at 28 years my child will be a product that is in part a result of my actions.

When my child turns 18, I will no longer have any right to information he's not willing to give; therefore all of his decisions from that point forward will be up to him and will be his responsibility. And if he's not prepared at that time, I will feel that I've not done right by him.

I agree that a hawklike presence over my child's life would be detrimental. It is good to let a child make mistakes and learn from them. BUT IT'S THE PARENTS JOB TO KNOW WHEN TO STEER HIS CHILD AWAY FROM MISTAKES WHICH HAVE CONSEQUENCES THAT ARE MORE THAN HIS CHILD CAN HANDLE. That's my responsibility. My child's life must be an open book to me. Because until he's 18 the damage he causes to himself or other's are MY RESPONSIBILITY, NOT HIS.

Now parent's on the otherhand aren't at all perfect. Thus some children really are oppressed, over-protected, and some even left to fend for themselves. Other times they're wrong and the feelings of oppression are actually guilt or shame for being held accountable.

The misuse by a parent of this service, is truly a problem. But I would bet you that if a child feels the need to hide his grades from his parent, and the parent feels the need to be all-intrusive in his child's life, then the problems in that relationship aren't caused by a website like this. Getting rid of tools that show the parent how his child is doing, won't fix that relationship.

So if you make the statement, "a parent may end up being intrusive, therefore don't do it", I would argue that it this statement is false. In cases where this is true, the parent is already being intrusive and the problems in that relationship are not caused by this service.

PS The security is an issue.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Gauchito]

Yes, but college is also the period in a child's life where they start to do things, not because your parents tell you, but because they need to be done. That is when you learn responsibility.

If you can't learn on your own to do your homework, then even with all the education in the world you're dead meat in real life anyway. And you only really, really learn when you f**k up. Kids need that independence. I'm not advocating being totally laissez-faire, but this is getting closer to the other extreme of total control. There should be a point when kids learn that the parent's nagging is for their own good, and that is when they are old enough to see the consequences of their own actions.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[pmz]

It is in the child's best interest to be watched like a hawk watching a mouse.

Sure it is. Now, not only does the child know that the parents don't believe them, but also that the parents don't believe in them.

A parent should be able to step in a teach the child a lesson that could be very dangerous to learn through trial and error.

And, thus, the child's experience might be limited to the parent's own experience.

Without a proper education you can seriously mess up your future.

School, for a long time, has never been the place to get that "proper educations." Face it, schools are day care for teenagers. Everything that is important to learn, people will learn it on their own. This has been true in my life and in the lives of people I talk to.

...if the parents routinely check up on you and your story always is the same as what they get from the school, then the trust will be in your honesty.

Do you really think schools give out straight stories, too? Teachers sometimes have agendas, are too busy, or are too incompetent to give you the information you need. This is the same scenario as "total information awareness" and those lame "I don't have anything to hide" excuses. The school's perception of the truth isn't always correct or even needed.

I'm 27

Do you remember what it was like in school? I've attended public, private, and residential secondary schools. In the public case, the school was hopeless and just a teenager farm. The private school was good, but only because it was fairly small (but not too small) so that there was a healthy level of parent-teacher-child interaction. The residential school had no respect for privacy due to overzealous over-loud parents, and the experience was pretty miserable. With curfews, strict-same-sex dorms, and lights-out times, the students were only allowed to grow "academically" and only on the school's terms, which is a pretty narrow definition of growth.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Necron69]

But you don't have kids, and apparently know nothing about parenting. Your 'sense' of the issue is completely wrong.

We call them 'children' because they are not adults. They do not have the same rights and particularly don't have the same sense of responsibility as adults. Your grandiose sense of parental nobility will quickly evaporate when you do have children. Half your job for the first few years is just keep them alive from risks like light sockets, busy streets, falling down stairs, etc. As they get older, you'll be shocked at just how immature and irresponsible they can be, even while having the ability to act 'adult' most of the time.

As a parent of three, ages 9, 4, and 2, I say bravo to the school district for helping busy parents out. I have a right to any and all information on my kid's schooling, just as often as I can get it. Anything that facilitates the transfer of that information is an improvement.

- Necron69

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Reziac]

I'm not a kid either, I'll be 48 next month, but I remember what it was like to be a kid.

In fact, the best way to make a kid feel so invaded that they turn to sneaking around at every opportunity, is to give them NO privacy.

Kids, like adults, have a NEED for a certain amount of inviolate privacy, and a NEED to feel trusted (thus worthy of your trust, and in turn willing to trust YOU as the responsible adult). If they don't get it, they'll find some way to manufacture it (ie. turn to sneaking it), and they'll also feel like they're no good since no one trusts them. This is not the way to raise a responsible adult.

As you say, treating a kid like an adult (within the limits of that kid's *current life experience*) is the best way to make them live up to your expectations. If you constantly check up on them, the only message the kid gets is "No one trusts me anyway, so why the hell try." The upshot is, your kid won't trust YOU either, and won't come to YOU when he needs help.

Checking up on kids is NOT the same as being an awake, aware, involved parent. If you had to inspect your kid's closet to find his new gun, you've already failed at a fundamental level. If you were doing your job and had your kid's trust, your kid would never have felt the need to sneak a gun into the house in the first place.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[4of12]

You're dead on center.

While I understand parents' need to monitor their children and to train them for inappropriate behavior, at a certain age kids have got to learn how to handle their own affairs: trust 'em with the responsibility, trust `em to take the consequences if they make a mistake.

The world is full of adults that didn't learn those lessons as children: and those adults keep trying the same tactics they learned as children as adults (if I whine to judge enough they'll let me go).

I'd hate, though, when I'm 80, to live in a world run by those kids who've had their privacy summarily erased for the sake of temporary convenience to service parental paranoia; they'll think nothing of running society with so many privacy invasions that we'll wish for the lesser measures described in 1984.

Re:Probably Good and Bad

[Gerry Gleason]

I'm only a few years younger that you, with young kids not yet at this phase, and I very much agree with the sentiment expessed here. My parents were very much a contrast here, my mother a free thinking artist type who really talked to us and found out who we were (are) and encouraged us to really think for ourselves. My father on the other hand was a cop, and could be very controlling. It didn't effect us that much, although every one of my sisters moved out of the house on or about their 18th birthdays (I went off to school the next fall, so I was pretty much gone too). Dad still doesn't get it, and probably thinks mom "turned us against him", which is something she would never do.

Ask Slashdot:How do I stop my parents from caring?

[Cyberblah]

The system does need better security (like issuing parents a login and password). However, there's pretty much nothing wrong with the idea. Do your homework, punk.

Yes and no

[JanneM]

Well, the authentication mechanism does seem unsecure - that is something the school needs to work on, or they're just setting themselves up for a lawsuit if it's used in an inappropriate way.

But... You complain that your parents find out what happens to you at school? That your legal guardians can find out if you try to deceive them and not do schoolwork? Hear - methinks it's the worlds smallest violin playing the worlds saddest song...

How about actually attending school and doing the homework?

Re:Yes and no

[JanneM]

I'm torn between the two sides here, but I really have to sympathize with the student. How many of us can really claim to have completed every homework assignment ever given? How many of us can really claim to have fulfilled every request of every teacher?

I certainly don't.

If an assignment is clearly "busywork", then bring it up with those in power to do something about it - the parents. If it is that clear, they are in a position both to accept not doing it, and also take the teachers to task for not doing their job.

The issue really is that as "legal guardians", the parents have not only a right, but a _duty_ to find out and check on everything Junior does. If Junior gets into trouble, so do the parents. If Junior commits a felony, it's the parents that have to pay the legal fees and damages. There is a pretty hefty legal burden on parents, which makes giving their chilren unsupervised rights a chancy proposition - and one that the parents would be wise not to give if the child can't even handle such simple responsibilities as showing up in school and telling them when they have school trouble.

As you say, most parents will recognize that doing everything "perfect" is not going to happen - and is likely not desirable either. If I didn't do every assigned piece of homework, or spent an afternoon in the local computer store rather than at school, my parents didn't freak. They - as yours - did realize that I would do fine anyway. A system such as this would not have changed this. The real control freaks out there already do find out just about daily about every detail of their childrens lives (my mother is a teacher - some parents can be absolutely unbelievable). But saying parents have no right to know what their children are up to is tantamount to give them responsibilities without corresponding control. That is bad.

They are doing only doing it because you care

[rf0]

Wether you believe it or not your parents are doing only because they care. You might not think it now but you will look back at some point and realise they are doing what they think is best for you.

As for the privacy issues ok prehaps its not so great but at least they are trying even though a custom username/password combination might be better

Rus

Re:They are doing only doing it because you care

[Sycraft-fu]

I used to agree with that statement, till I met a number of parents that take so much personal pride in their kid's achievements that it is all that is important to them. They care about their kid doing well to make themselves look and feel beter, not for their kid's own sake.

As a generaly rule though, yes parents do keep on their kids because they care.

Re:They are doing only doing it because you care

[Anonymous Coward]

I see this as an increase in that communication. If parents frequently visit the site they can see that their student is doing poorly before the arrival of the report card and contact the teacher to have a meeting. Right now most parents sit back and wait for the report card and teacher/parent conference day. Anything that will make parents moe proactive is a good thing.

Two issues

[El Volio]

To the poster: your parents sound like they're doing their job. Be glad they're interested in your achievement. If all parents felt the same way, our society would be in a wholly different situation.

That said, the login process probably does need to be changed, but doing that might end up defeating the purpose: if they sent a login via snail mail, kids are likely to intercept it. Then again, if the whole area knows about it, parents would get suspicious about why they haven't received theirs. It's a simple problem to fix, though, and doesn't change the fact that the underlying program keeping parents informed is a great idea.

Security/Privacy

[binaryDigit]

Well if someone has that much of your SSN, you probably have bigger security/privacy issues than someone simply looking up your grades. Though in general the idea of using ones SSN (or parts thereof) just doesn't leave you with a warm fuzzy.

As to your parents, well it's unfortunate that they feel compelled to use a tool like this in the way that they do. However, the bigger question is WHY they feel compelled to have to use it. It may be the "wow, we can do this" factor, which often times wears off. It could be that you are flakey and put them in a position to think that they HAVE to do this in order to make sure you are getting your homework done. I don't know which. But in any case, have you tried simply talking to them about the whole issue? Parents CAN be reasonable when talked to in an adult fashion (i.e. talk to them like and adult and they're more likely to treat you like one).

a few points

[nuggz]

1. You should show up to school, it is your parents responsibility to ensure you do.
2. You should do your homework, again your parents should make sure you do.
3. You should have some privacy, and your parents should let you have it. However if you aren't trustworthy enough to do your homework and go to school, you deserve what you get.
4. The risk of use of this system by unauthorized persons is unacceptable.

This is an arguement of privacy vs responsible supervision, like having the "internet computer" facing back into the room to watch what your kids are doing.

I'd be willing ot bet that if you always show up for school, and always do your homework (or at least get near perfect grades). Your parents won't bother checking up on you.

Otherwise wait till you're 18, then bitch out any school that releases personal information without your consent.

Minors don't have privacy

[tommyServ0]

My wife (a High School math teacher) will tell you that her best students usually have parents who are involved with their children's schoolwork. This will make it easier for parents and teachers to help encourage their kids to learn.

Something like this would make both the teacher's and parent's job much easier. The teacher doesn't have to arrange as many meetings with parents (only the parents of really problem kids) and the parent doesn't need to rely on the student for accurate information about their conduct, homework, and grades. I was in High School, too.

I hope people realize that parents that make sure their kids work hard in high school are all too rare these days, and it's a blessing to have them.
Just ask the students in my wife's Geometry class.

HomeWork Sucks

[Grrreat]

Its really lame that the 8 hours you spend in school isn't enough time. If you have to bring school home with you then someone isn't teaching well. There should be ample to time during school hours for schoolwork to get done if the students wants, instead of being forced home with it. Its basicly training everyone to be ok with bring work home for the rest of their lives and thats not cool and most people don't get paid enough for that.

Living hell?

[extra88]

You actually have to do your homework? OMG, more violations of the Geneva Conventions!

The security part needs improving but overall this sounds like a good idea. Homework assignments are all recorded in one place so everyone knows what was assigned, no disagreements or confusion not just between parents & students but also students & teachers. Of course parents should talk to their children about school and their homework but this site shouldn't serve as a substitute but rather a starting point, one which eliminates the dreary recitation of what homework was assigned.

Login system using SSN's

[sebmol]

No computer system should *ever* use SSN's as the user name or password. The ubiquitous presence and use of SSN's for such purposes are one of the main reasons identity theft is going rampant these days.

Instead, they should let every parent create their own pair of user name and password that can't directly be linked back to either student or parent (well, unless they chose to use their real names, of course). That's, for example, how Washington Mutual is handling their online banking service.

On a slightly unrelated note, how is this supposed to work in school districts that by law have to give access to illegal immigrants who by their very nature have no SSN? There are quite a few places, namely in California, where the law says that schools can't ask for citizenship or immigration status and have to accept children regardless of that.

How exactly will this produce better adults?

[wrero]

Those parents who are conscientious or care enough about their children and their performance in school, that is, those that will use this site, are probably not the parents who SHOULD be using this site.

There are obvious exceptions, but it seems to me that the majority [not all] of kids who have real problems in school are the children of uninvolved parents to begin with.

Sure, there will be those involved parents, who think "B" stands for "Bad" who will be all over this site and love it; they can really pressure their kid to SUCCEED! These are the same parents that probably put up "motivational" posters in their kid's room.

I thought we have established, in general, that "micro-management" in the ADULT world is a bad thing? Are kids really going to learn to be responsible if someone is looking over their shoulder every day? Or, are the periodic student-reviews (report cards) and periodic management meetings (parent-teacher meetings) a better way to allow the student to learn responsibility for themselves...

This of course is all my opinion.

It would be my contention that the rights to privacy outweigh the substantive long term benefits from such a system - because in the end, I'm not seeing any REAL benefit.

The Gift of Feedback

[Mr Europe]

Feedback is a great tool to motivate people, and I now mean especially the positive feedback. The system described above seems nice, but the teachers should use it (also) for good deeds. Try to give every day as many positive as negative feedbacks and You will be amazed of the effect !
And of course the security stinks. Now the neighbor could see how our kids are doing. That's untolerable !

Illegal use of SSN

[Gothmolly]

This is just another instance where lazy adminstrators and programmers use the SSN as a unique identifier. There's nothing inherent about your U.S. SSN that requires it be linked to your grades. I fight this battle all the time with health care providers and other places where you need an 'account number'. It's easy for them - you never forget it, and its guaranteed to be unique. I always force them to generate a random 9 digit number instead. Why link my medical records to my tax accounts?

Re:So...

[Jaysyn]

or just block the IP with firewall software.

Jaysyn

do your homework... BUT

[Capt_Troy]

yea yea yea, there's a lot of "stupid kid, do your homework, love your parents" stuff going around here. and I totally agree...

BUT. This is a serious security concern. In todays world, there is no excuse for lazy password policy and non-encrypted personal informaion flowing over the web. This Pinnicle company needs to get it's shit together because 1 simple hack (which will probably happen now that it's been on /.) and that company can roll over and die.

My own experiences....

[cnelzie]

I had the excellent opportunity to attend a private boarding school for my sophomore year of high school. It was quite frankly the best school and time that I had had at school.

Sure, just like in public school, I fell to the bottom of the social structure, but I excelled academically while attending that school. I know that if I had the opportunity to have completed my high school education, I would be much farther ahead in life then I am now.

However, I am digressing...

While at that school, the faculty had full control over the students lives, only the students that excelled in their studies had privelages above the students that didn't excel.

For instance, everyday, we were given roughly two hours after class, prior to dinner of "free-time" where we could go where we wanted to go and do what we wanted to do.

In the evening, prior to hitting the sack, we had mandatory study time. Unless you were excelling in your studies, you were to stay in your own room and study. If you were excelling, then you had the freedom to study where you wished or do whatever other activity that you wished.

So, in my case, straight after classes, I focused on tearing through my homework. After that, I took the evening free-time to keep up with a few television shows, shoot pool with other excelling students, attend evening on campus bonfires and slurry of other activities that simply weren't available durring the after classes free-time.

If my parents had been as forceful on me, as that school was, I would have likely developed a much better study habit then I currently have and would have continued to excel in life.

As it stands, I am doing okay, but I really could be doing better.

Re:My own experiences....

[Skyshadow]

If my parents had been as forceful on me, as that school was, I would have likely developed a much better study habit then I currently have and would have continued to excel in life.

In the Real World(tm), I've found that my hard-won "study habits", which were developed at length in many weekend classes that my parents enrolled me in, are more or less completely useless. Unless you're an assembly-line worker, the structure of school bears little resemblence to what you'll be doing professionally.

Most of the posters here seem to agree that this is a handy tool for parents looking to, er, motivate their children to excel in the school system, but that doesn't change to fact that the basic approach to education followed by 99% of schools is badly outdated to begin with and that this sort of software only exacerbates the problem.

I'm not suggesting that a firm grip of the fundementals taught in school are not important, however one of the keys to raising a successful child is not to raise them in an environment where they are given (and thus learn to expect and rely on) constant supervision and management. This approach will create a mindset which will serve them only in the very lowest-level jobs.

The ability to demonstrate initiative, to think around problems and to plan effectively for both the short and long term are the real hallmark of effective parenting. Now, of course school performance is part of this, but only from the standpoint of working the system (good grades = good college = opportunities, hopefully).

The real issue here is that parents, and many non-parent adults, wrongly associate success in school with success in life, and as an extension their child's success in school as a validation of their parenting skills. This, of course, is not the case -- the real measure of a parent's success cannot be fully assessed until their child is thirty or so and well clear of school.

At least a step in the right direction

[Yoje]

Software such as this (and Apple's more elaborate PowerSchool ) is at least getting parents more involved in school and their child's schoolwork, which is A Good Thing. As with anything else, the primary problem here is user education, i.e., the school administrators using other things besides SSNs to validate users.

But I'm glad to see more software like this developed for schools: with both parents usually working full-time, it makes it easier for them to get an idea of how their child is doing, and at least makes an attempt to bring them back into their child's education. As many of the other posters have stated, you should at least be glad that your parents are interested enough in your education to take action (which, even though they are technically required to until you're 18, many don't bother).

Re:Ahh, yes... Pinnacle Gradebook!

[pongo000]

What you describe is typical of many applications intended for public school education. Software is generally contracted out to the lowest bidder, and we all know the quality at the bottom of that barrel.

For instance, we have this brand-spanking new on-line curriculum (used to dictate curriculum to teachers, a subject I won't get started on now). Only problem is, the company that wrote it has had to cut back on its staff, so we've lost our district liaison. Which means, we can no longer modify the program, add new functionality, etc. Kicker here is that the contract is for "x" number of years. So we're stuck with this piece of shit.

Slashdot's credibility

[swb]

This has been making my life a living hell for the past 2 months, every night my parents go on and check to see if i have any homework and won't let me do anything till it's done

No offense to anyone, but how is Slashdot supposed to have credibility on "adult" issues like security, intellectual property, and technology when a story has some kid whining about his parents not letting him out to play until his homework is done?

I think it's pretty pathetic and this kid is pretty pathetic, too. When I was kid before computers, you didn't get to play outside until your homework was done, either. Mom and dad checked the assignments, grades, etc frequently to make sure you weren't fucking up.

If grades came back low at the end of the semester for anything but gym, freedoms were further curtailed until they went back up. If they went up and stayed up, greater freedoms were granted.

I'm glad they did this because -- *gasp* -- that's a lot how the real world works, except that nobody pays as much attention along the way, it all comes down to the the final exam.

Re:Slashdot's credibility

[LongJohnStewartMill]

I think it's pretty pathetic and this kid is pretty pathetic, too. When I was kid before computers, you didn't get to play outside until your homework was done, either. Mom and dad checked the assignments, grades, etc frequently to make sure you weren't fucking up.

It's interesting that you say something like that. I grew up in a big family with just my mom. She really couldn't keep track of all of us, so we had to be responsible for ourselves most of the time. I hardly ever did homework, let alone right after school. When I was young it was sports; later, computers. Grade 12 wasn't as good for me because of it, but I knew it was my own fault, and once college came around, I smartened up.

A couple of my friends, on the other hand, had parents similar (possibly worse) than what you're describing. Absolutely no freedom at all. Want to know what happened to them? They flunked out first year college. One of them actually had their mom call a prof to get out of an incomplete assignment. Another has tried several different programs, showing no responsibility, never studying, and totally wasting money.

Just presenting an argument for a child's freedom.

Re:Big Achievers Big Pressure Big Trouble

[Drakin]

Certain types of homework are fine (essays, research, projects), as they're not homework exaclly, but may take some people more time than clastime allows (ie, you left that essay until the last minute, again). But others, like your normal math homework come across to me as being frequently without use.

If the student understands and feels comfortable with what they learned, why should they need to do extra work?

I think that everyone (teachers, parents, studnts) needs to realise that each student has ways that they work best, and that forcing everyone to take the same path just produces a bunch of learned idiots.

(thankfully when I went to school in grades 9-12 there was little emphisis on homework, it was optional, and you got a few extra marks for doing it, but didn't loose any for not doing it.)

Re:This is living hell for teachers too!

[tmortn]

I couldn't disagree with your seintiments more. Seems to me you can place that as a disclaimer to your grade book and then leave an open invitation to discuss a childs progress with parents as well.

Just like with illness, early detection of a problem at school is the best and sometimes only way to solve the problem. By finding the time to keep grades reasonbaly up to date where parents can easily have access to them can give you a valuable ally in your efforts to reach struggling children.

Complain about the fact you probably have to many students in each class to realisticly keep an up to date grades book but please god don't say you would preffer not to post grades for parental review till the last week, what good does a poor mark do at that point ? The race is over, options are limited. You have to keep some running tally of grades anyway so why not take an hour at the end of each week and keep the online values consistent with your 'work in progress'?

Granted conference time is more valuable but is it a bad thing to give parents one more way to stay abreast of their childrens progress ?

Re:So...

[0x0d0a]

Or if he did his farking homework instead of slacking for a while, they might be lulled into complacency and not bother to check his grades for a while

Or he could just do the damn homework, period.

I mean, there are a lot of people paying out a lot of money so that he can get educated, and he's simply ignoring it. (Yes, you can learn without school and homework, however, I'm going to bet that Ishkibble's not running out and reading research papers in the time he's saving).

Is there some homework you don't like? Sure. Is there some that won't teach you anything you don't know? Sure. But neither does it warrant completely ignoring it. The moment teens feel that they don't need to do something, they want to demonstrate their power ("I'm not a *kid* anymore") and ignore it.

Simply ignoring things you don't like generally acts as a pretty large anchor in your professional life, guys. Take advantage of this time to learn how to deal with people in authority that make bad calls.

Boo Hoo!!!!

[g_goblin]

Damn right you little fuk tard!!! Are you bitching that your parents are taking an interest in your education instead of you wasting your time on Playstation, Internet Porn or Ripping off Musicians.

I agree the security needs to be changed, but until you pay your own bills and your own taxes you have nothing to bitch about.

In a related vein...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is somewhat off-topic, but it relates to allowing sensitive data to be accessed in an insecure manner.

I am a physician at a major hospital that is implementing off-site access to medical records over the internet. The setup is incredibly brain-dead. The passwords and user ids are, shall we say, not within a light year of constituting an acceptably secure unix login. The system itself is implemented entirely around ActiveX controls, making it only usable with IE. Instead of simple text links to click on, all navigation is done via buttons with complex graphics, making the pages take a long time to load. Finally, and most preposterous, if you look up a single lab result (e.g. potassium: 4.3), the server sends out a several hundred KB graphic of the printed page with the result, rather than just the few bytes needed for the result itself.

no, your way is bad because....

[Uberbah]

I'm glad they did this because -- *gasp* -- that's a lot how the real world works

No, thats not how the real world works at all. By breathing down the kids neck all the time that becomes his sole motivation to do anything. Or as in Office Space, "(paraphrased) sure you can threaten to fire me, but that will only make me do just enough to not get fired".

In other words, the kid isn't motivated to get his homework done because he's a go-getter or because he wants to better himself, but because you'll bitch at him. Said kid turns 18, goes off to college, but without you bitching at him and without any personal movotivation, he'll fall flat on his face.

Same thing once he gets out to the workplace. You need to install self-motivation and a sense of pride in kids for them to go out and succed, and sticking your nose over their shoulders ever day isn't going to accomplish that.

Your Parents Love You

[jasontromm]

Your parents love you enough to care about your success. If you spend less time fighting with them, you'll have more time to play after you get your homework done.

You ought to thank them for caring enough to check the gradebook every night.

Two things must be said

[Phileosophos]

First, regarding the security of the system, it might be in violation of federal privacy guidelines. I teach at the University of Southern California, and our administrators are taking those guidelines pretty seriously. To wit, I cannot discuss grades or anything substantive with students via email, and I cannot post grades anywhere that they could be read unless I generate random codes for lookup that are in no way related to the student's true information. That the product in question uses the social security number and a few letters of the last name probably doesn't pass legal muster from what I've been told.

Second, regarding the homework: suck it up. Every day I deal with college students that are literally incapable of performing basic mathematics (e.g., multiplying two single-digit numbers), writing a simple declarative sentence (in any language, mind you, not just English), and show a shocking lack of any reasoning skills. Do your homework now while you're young. I know it isn't much fun, but trust me, it's better than being an idiot later in life.

The value of Education

[Xevo]

This is an age-old issue: is middle-high school a learning environment, or simply "day care for teenagers"? The answer, of course, is that it depends on the family.

If your family structure is such that you never discuss classes or homework with other family members or friends, there is absolutely no motivation for you to learn. Parents who view school as "day-care" are imposing those same views on their children. Think about it: we excel in areas that are important to our social groups, be they at school, home, or otherwise. If you have no social interactions encouraging high achievement in school, you (typically) won't do well. Why should you work for no reward other than a mass-printed grade sheet?

So, this system may be a good way to open up family discussions about schoolwork.

Just my 2 cents.

Re:So...

[knobmaker]

Or he could just do the damn homework, period.

I agree that this would be the best solution, but it has the added disadvantage of pleasing the parents, which is anathema to most of the teenagers I've ever met. Me included, I'm afraid.

Our local school system uses Pinnacle, and I think it's a fine idea. My 15 year old daughter, who always got straight As in the past, started slacking off in high school, which came as a great shock to us when the first report card with Fs came home. So, we grounded her until the grades came up-- no going anywhere, no phone, no net, no TV. The howls of anguish could probably be heard halfway 'round the world. She tried everything (except actually doing the work) to get us to change our minds, and it was a pretty painful couple of months. But the online grade system gave us a black-and-white meter for lifting the sanctions. "The day we go online and you have no grade lower than a C is the day you aren't grounded. Period."

Eventually she gave up on bullying us into changing our minds, did the work, and raised the grades. Since she won't always have her doting parents to put the best spin on everything she does, I think it's a valuable lesson.

That said, I think it's a very poor idea to use the Pinnacle system to micromanage the child-- making sure that she does her homework every night. It should be the child's responsibility to keep up with that stuff, to do what is necessary to achieve the desired result-- good grades. The child won't always have her parents to act as semi-sentient personal organizers-- she'd better get used to organizing herself, or it's a recipe for delayed disaster.

Re:So...

[c_jonescc]

Bullcrap.

I never did homework in HS. It was almost always a waste of time, and fortunatly most of my educators realized that if every test resulted in me getting a high score, then there was no point.

The college I went to: all the classes I took in my major (physics) I never had to turn in homework. You did what it took to understand the material, and to satisfy your curiosity. If one problem looked obvious, skip it and spend the extra time on the fucking hard one.

Now in the graduate school I go to: homework is VERY important for the core courses. But then, it's very rare that there is an obvious problem, so by my collegiate standards I would be doing all the problems anyway.

Just because 'your' tax dollars are going towards his HS 'education' doesn't mean the system is infallable. In my experience most HS teachers just follow the formula, and equivelant homework for all students is part of that formula.

Knowing what you need to do to understand, and knowing what you don't know at all are a large buoy in your professional life. Take advantage of this time to learn how to not waste time on 'time fillers'.

I think the whole system is rediculous. Parents who can't remember their little daily rebellions that their parents never learned about stifle their children. Kids need some risk and adventure and leashes like these take that away. Plus I think there is a lot to be said for the accountability of a term-long project that a student blows off until the end. What are these kids going to do in college when their parents arn't making sure they are caught up every single night?

Re:Ahh, yes... Pinnacle Gradebook

[mav[LAG]]

Teacher: Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
Simone: Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend knows this kid who wrote this script which plugs into this database that links to this client which says that Ferris passed out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.
Teacher: Thank you Simone.

Re:So...

[DeltaSigma]

The moment teens feel that they don't need to do something, they want to demonstrate their power ("I'm not a *kid* anymore") and ignore it.

Simply ignoring things you don't like generally acts as a pretty large anchor in your professional life, guys. Take advantage of this time to learn how to deal with people in authority that make bad calls.

Keep in mind, however, that these assertions (or "demonstrations") should be recognized. From infancy to puberty we can consider a child's life a period of preparation. It is often described in this manner. A period of time in which we outfit them with the tools neccessary to succeed in life. While we still do this during the middle to late teenage years, we also burden them with the lessons of direction.

A teenager is learning that they have options with the course their life is going to take. This is a very experimental stage in their lives. Some successful children will experiment with their grades. Further some, like me, will purposefully quit altogether, and not for a lack of knowledge nor stamina with which to drive oneself. Suffice it to say, this is frustrating for a caring parent.

I do agree with you that teenagers should not ignore their assignments. That they should have consideration for the many people who thought to give them the opportunities they have today. I merely wish to draw attention to the fact, that the best way to teach them to not ignore something, is to not ignore them. They're not children anymore. They're still your legal and (usually) biological offspring, however they have completed their early stages of character formation. I've known a lot of stupid, ditsy, strange, apathetic, maligned, and otherwise different teenagers in my life. I believe that I can say with some authority that none of them caused the trouble they did without reason. Evidence that they did would be indicative of a mental illness.