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Firebird Database Project Admin on Name Clash
CapnKirk writes "Ann Harrison weighs in on the "Firebird--database or browser?" name clash. Her take on things: our users feel threatened. We're responding to their concerns. AOL lawyers said it's ok, so the Mozilla team isn't interested in negotiating, but that's ok because we've gotten a lot of publicity and name recognition. And no, we don't plan on going to court." As always, a small group of users are being real asses about the whole thing. Yay.
I would be satisfied if Mozilla's new name was just "Not Internet Explorer".
Methinks even more people would want to use it too.
Using Not Internet Explorer 1.3...
I really don't understand why the ferocity of their defense of the "Firebird" name.
One is a database.
Another is a browser.
It's also a car.
Unless, like I read in another post... it's all about publicity to just get the "Firebird" name out there.
Ah well.
-brain
C'mon, "Firebird"? Come up with something better, all of you!
Those database people should've never named their program the same thing as the browser
They should have never named it after the car and then expected that nobody would do the same to them.
Jason
ProfQuotes
And I've spent most of the last week responding to people who read about this on Slashdot and call me a spammer, a terrorist, and a sucker of moose balls.
Whose users are being asses again?
Consider Anne's Responses:
Q: Several sites, including LinuxWorld, News.com, Slashdot and Neowin.net have published articles on the conflict. How do you feel about the media coverage of the dispute?
A: "To be frank, I haven't read any of the articles. I've got a mangled database I'm trying to resurrect and I've been answering e-mails from people who object to my attempt to raise our profile."
and yet, Anne admits:
"And I've spent most of the last week responding to people who read about this on Slashdot and call me a spammer, a terrorist, and a sucker of moose balls."
Glad to see she has her priorities straight. She's been too busy responding to the flames of Slashdot readers to read any of the other articles on the conflict... ;-)
This reminds me of the disputes over domain names. Like whether Nissan motors vs Nissan computers has any more right to nissan.com than the other.
I believe in the first come first serve. Mozilla needs to find a new name.
I still think Mozilla should take a clue from the automotive world, and call it what everyone else calls the Pontiac Firebird(the Screaming/Flaming Chicken- remember the giant decal on the hood?), only with the typical Mozilla twist.
"Introducing Screaming Dinosaur 7.0! Now features a Mullet theme(complete with AC/DC soundtrack) and optional CinderBlock technology, which completely disables the browser(but leaves it on your desktop, along with dozens of useless old documents and applications.)"
Please help metamoderate.
If ignorance is bliss, you must be quite happy. Many of us who actually develop against multiple databases for a living are actually familiar with Firebird the database. I think that the Mozilla people are doing a shitty thing and that they should back off and find another name. The people behind firebird have done some decent work, now why don't the rabid /.'s back off and show some respect for a solid open source project?
While most Slashdot users won't be confused by a Firebird DB & a Firebird browser, many browser end-users might be.
yeah... I can see it...
"Dammit, this stupid firebird browser sucks. I can find any web pages on it.."
tech support: " do you have your proxy set wrong?"
"No, it keeps telling me my query is wrong and I need to select a database first! this this is pure crap!"
I can see that... same as those idiots in sales keep trying to piss in the vending machines because they are the same color as the urinal stalls. And dont get me started what they do because the odor cakes in the urinals look like a favorite food around here!
People are so fricking stupid nowdays you have to be careful because names easily confuse them.
Ok so was a too sarcastic?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
In keeping with the fire and lizard themes, how about "Salamander" for the browser?
I think we need a /. poll on this issue - let the Slashdot croud weigh in! Here's my suggestion:
Should Mozilla change Firebird's name?
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
I've always been a Mozilla advocate. Mozilla's support for Web standards, tied with its open development cycle, powered by the remarkable bugzilla system made it immediately appeal to me. The legendary competition with MSIE is also a significant factor.
But I've really lost faith in Mozilla since this Firebird naming issue came up. It's not that I feel some kind of cameraderie for the Firebird-db people, but out of my own selfishness. If Mozilla can appropriate the name of a prominent Open Source project's name, what's to stop it from doing so again? Perhaps my project is next on the chopping block? Backed with the lawyers of AOL, I have started to fear that the Mozilla project could come to threaten my Open Source project. Perhaps they'll chose to rename their IRC client next?
When users apt-get install firebird, should they get the browser or the database? The only thing the "Firebird" name change is going to achieve is the dangerous precedent for an environment which encourages the free-for-all name grab; I know Mozilla advocates have stuck to their guns in the past on important issues, but they really need to give up the "Firebird" name. Please direct your guns towards the people who break Web standards and perpetuate broken software, not fellow Open Source projects, especially not for something as trivial as a stupid name. Life's just too short.
Which pair is more similar, a web browser and a database, or a web browser and a BIOS?
It seems to me that this name change had nothing to do with trademark law or avoiding confusion, and everything to do with who has the most lawyers.
Personally, I think that the Firebird database should be renamed the Mozilla database... because, hey, Mozilla's own lawyers (ok, AOL's lawyers, presumably) have obviously decided that nobody will ever be confused between a web browser and a database.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
And what type of editorializing would we have if some no-name database project stole the name of an established browser? Just because you like the phoenix/firebird project doesn't automatically make them right.
If they want to maintain clarity, all of the established firebird developers now have the wonderful repsonsibility of qualifying their projects as firebird-db or somesuch nonsense because the phoenix team picked a name for their software that was already taken.
I can't understand if this naming issue is just some publicity stunt or if the moz developers are really this oblivious to the inconvenience they're causing. I would expect this sort of insane behavior from a pair of firms with an over-imaginative PR departments trying to brand themselves. But watching this shit come from open-source developers? Depressing.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." -Voltaire
Since calling it Firebird is a recent change, why not just pick another name if it's becoming such a big deal? Any particular reason to stick with the name Firebird for Mozilla other than the fact it's already been publicized? If they're getting so much heat from it, I think they should just pick another name right now and end this.
Developers: We can use your help.
I'm not sure that "Mozillazine" is a place to get much decent coverage of the situation, but...
"Whining"... neither of us heard anybody's tone of voice, so this almost *has* to be projection. Perhaps what you really meant was that they didn't have a reasonable complaint? I can easily believe that they don't have a legally actionable complaint, but that doesn't keep the browser team from having exhibited very poor manners. Was it that they didn't bother to check that there was another project using the same name, or did they just not care?
When a corporation acts like this, I consider them a bad citizen, and usually consider boycotting their products. Since I wasn't using Phoenix anyway, this isn't going to have much effect. But being in a legally defensible position doesn't translate into being a decent group of people. And OSS project or not, I find myself quite dubious as to the ethical standards of those in charge of determining the name. OSS goes a long way, but it doesn't justify everything, and claim-jumping (the closest analogy I can come to) is one thing it doesn't justify.
If this turns out to be Mozilla rather than just Phoenix, well: "I've been wondering how one would hook a bayesian filter up to K-Mail, and I guess that I'll have a chance to find out. And thank you for having introduced me to Bayesian filters before turning to the dark side.", but for the moment I'm going to assume that it's only the Phoenix project that's involved. They're the only ones legally required to change their name.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
...if some small, yet popular open-source project had its name stolen by a large, monolithic software company's product that we'd be all over the larger company's ass about this?
Perhaps with all the heated argument over the name, the Mozilla browser should not be called Firebird but rather it should be named Flamethrower.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Pontiac doesn't make the Firebird OR the Firebird Trans-Am anymore. Somewhere, David Hasselhof and Burt Reynolds are quietly weeping, mourning the passage of their valiant steeds.
2002 was the last model year any of these cars were built. The same goes for the Chevy Camaro.
Ahh, I see you didn't read the article at all. To quote Ann Harris from the article, "The Firebird BBS project from Taiwan uses "Firebird BBS" as their mark. Pontiac uses "Pontiac Firebird" as a mark. If Mozilla wants to use "Mozilla Firebird" -- that may be acceptable in a legal sense."
Also, if you read the article, you'd know that software is the entire category. That's why the Linux, as the sole name of a word processor, is out of the question, no matter what os it ran on.
E & J Gallo Thunderbird.
Just call the browser "Flamewar".
Maybe we should call the new lightweight Moz browser Pinto.
Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
How about calling it "Mozilla" or "Mozilla Browser". There's no conflict with that name, right?
Phoenix, the lightweight opensource mozilla browser, was renamed to Firebird.
Firebird, the open source database, is supported by a company called IBPhoenix.
Firebird, the database, also happens to be licensed under the IPL, which is based on the Mozilla Public License.
The Mozilla Project's Asa Dotzler has said that "the chances of someone confusing a web browser and a relational database are about as slim as someone confusing a loaf of bread and a bananna". There have now been complaints from Mozilla camp about IBPhoenix inciting their users to contact, en masse, Asa (and others) about this matter... I think that the Mozilla people should really just be glad that the users were only asked to send email, rather than to snail mail packages of mozilla-branded banana bread. Because that would be kind of funny.
In any case, I think that a project who's name and logo comes awfully close to infringing on a certain Japaneese movie franchise really ought to think carefully before stepping on friend's toes regarding name rights.
__
Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
I appreciate both teams. Mozilla was the little gecko engine that could, that never gave up and eventually plodded to stability. Mozilla is one of the most successful open source projects today and a major bastion against a microsoft-locked internet.
FirebirdSQL was born from Borland's utter mismanagement of Interbase. The only reason they didn't kill the product outright is because of the great user community. Only a determined and personally involved user community has salvaged the interbase code from years of neglect to a very respectable open source database system. Firebird
is the leading developer of the interbase code today, eclipsing borland's own efforts in many areas. It is every bit as competitive a system as mysql and postgresql.
Both products clearly deserve respect and admiration. Anyone who disparages the core accomplishments of either group would be hard pressed to do better.
This makes the current scandal all the more sad. I think everyone who has ever seen a news group or a major mailing list understands the need for good etiquette on the net.
Regardless of the legal issues, it is bad etiquette for the mozilla folks to rename phoenix firebird. Of course the Mozilla folks *can* use phoenix, but it's not very nice. There's plenty of name space for everyone.. Be a good neighbor and pick a non-conflicting name. This is social skills 101, a total no-brainer- Don't alienate people for no good reason.
The Firebird (SQL) users should publicly appologize for advocating such guerilla protest tactics. I saddens me that many people's first impression of this great project will be formed from the emotional rantings of a minority. Do protest publicly, but do so with logic and reason.
I hope this all blows over quickly.
I'm going to jump on this bandwagon.
Firebird is an excellent mature database that has continually improved since the project formed a few years ago,and is worth considering any time you want support for stored procedures, triggers, and transactions like PostgreSQL, or the ability to deploy on both Linux and Windows like mySQL.
Mozilla is a great project with much more visibility than Firebird. It would be nice if the Mozilla team could spend a little extra time to come up with a name that isn't already being used by an open source project. How hard could that be?
Both, although from what I've seen it has mostly been the Firebird DB enthusiasts acting like asses and spurning logic. That's not to say the Mozilla Firebird fans haven't been acting like asses, of course. They just haven't been doing it as loudly in the places I've been watching the 'debate' (mostly the Mozillazine forums).
The whole thing seems like a huge non-issue to me. Plenty of open source projects with the same name have managed to live together in the past, even where one of them is from an open source Goliath. I use JasperReports on top of Apache's Jasper JSP engine, and considered using the Jasper image libraries to generate images for my reports. Did this confuse me? No. Did it confuse me when I searched for documentation on Google? No, because I'm capable of using it. And perhaps I've just missed it, but I don't remember any vehement flame wars about the shared name.
Another name which has been shared peacefully in the past is Firebird. When the Firebird DB project grabbed the name, which had already been associated with, among other things, BBS software, I don't believe there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth. The users and developers of the various previous Firebird applications were happy enough to go on with the same name.
At the end of the day, Firebird is a common word. It has Phoenix associations, which makes it an obvious name for any project rising from the ashes of another. It's the name of a car. It's the name of a software house from the 8-bit days. It's found in dictionaries: Websters lists it as a common name for the Baltimore Oriole, and WordNet adds two other species of bird. The reason the AOL legal department agreed to the name, and one of the reasons the Firebird DB team don't want a court case, is that they don't have a leg to stand on. As Ann Harrison points out, trademarks have to be defended. Firebird the DB has shared that name with more than enough other pieces of software to make it clear that they weren't interested in defending that trademark.
At the end of the day, it's a done deal. AOL have put time and money into ensuring they have a name that works from a legal standpoint. They aren't going to throw more money at the problem just to soothe some egos. For better or for worse, the name has been selected and will be sticking - and it's time for people on both sides to make the most of it, whether they like it or not.
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
Few people realize that the Phoenix browser's new name is an acronym:
Firebird: I Renamed Everrbody's Browser Into a Relational Database
They have a trademark. It's "Firebird." They haven't registered it, but it's still a legal, defensible trademark.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Trademarking the name wouldn't have mattered. In the eyes of the law, a browser and a database are probably just as far apart as a car and a plane. Sure, they're the same thing in an extremely general sense, like "software" and "vehicles", but in actuality, they are very different.
Dude, this is a very good example to prove exactly the opposite of your argument. There are many car manufacturers that are also in the airplane industry. Even for the ones that are not, does not automatically enable anyone to take their trademarks and use them to name their planes. Saab makes both cars and airplane parts and engines. So does Rolls Royce; and many others. Toyota is/was planning to make an easy-to-fly, cheap plane. I can't take "Saab" or "Toyota" trademarks and use them with my planes names. And, no I can't name my planes "Mercedes", "BMW" or "Volvo" either.
That said, in the article, they address this question - in legal terms, the article says, there is a software category that covers all software. Mozilla could, in theory, apply for and register a trademark on "Firebird" claiming to only use it in a very specific narrow field, but otherwise it is likely to be violating the database project's trademark.
In my opinion, this makes sense. Going beyond the cars and airplanes, if Firebird database project were to produce a database browser and integrated products for web services on top of their database, etc. that would cause more confusion than a simple - "ahh anybody can tell a difference between DB and a browser" - may suggest.
The only reason people think that trademarks are such overwhelmingly powerful things that give you total control over a name in all areas of business is because of how easy it is to steal domain names and such away from people through third parties that have nothing to do with the law, such as ICANN. In legal practice, trademarks aren't really that broad, and this is a legal matter.
Well, trademarks don't give you power "in all areas of business"; as I understand there are defined categories for trademark use and laws on what can and cannot constitute a trademark. This has nothing to do with ICANN and their practices, or domain names even.
You are right in many of the particulars of the case, while, I think, being somewhat wrong in your conclusions.
First of all, they started calling their system software releases 'MacOS Number' at MacOS 8. The moniker had been used before then; though 7 was still officially 'System 7', a lot of people referred to it as MacOS 7 or 7.5 or whatever, because 'System 7' couldn't be used unless you had a context... it's too broad. Likewise it's not patentable.
Second, the Macintosh operating systems after 7.x were always called, not Mac OS9, but 'MacOS 9'. The dramatic majority of sites, based on a little check I just did via Google, do indeed call it that way. In fact, if you run a search for the following on Google, the top 8 sites you get are sites that talk about the OS-9 operating system, not the Macintosh in any way, shape, or form.
"OS 9" "OS9" -"MacOS 9" -"Mac OS9"
So, the pages that talk about OS-9 are, by and large, pages that talk about OS-9. In fact, I, as a Mac programmer and sysadmin, have very rarely heard of people calling MacOS 9 'OS-9'... I can't think of a single instance. When people are talking about it without bringing up the Mac beforehand, it's always 'MacOS 9'... when you're already talking about the Mac, it's almost *invariably* just 'nine'. As in, "Well, it runs under ten just fine, but it just crashes to the desktop when you try to run it on nine. I even tried it on nine-two-two.'
Ultrascience did indeed sell OS-9 for 68000-based Macintoshes. However, by the time MacOS 9 came out, Ultrascience had discontinued their product quite a long time hence, so there was no danger of their being harmed.
Finally, I have not read the decision, but as I understand it the judge didn't have to claim that there would be no confusion. What he needed to claim was that that Apple's trademark was sufficiently different from OS-9 that such confusion was unlikely to occur, OR that the two products were in sufficiently different categories that they did not compete with one another.
Personally, I would have to say that anyone who needed OS-9 would be able to understand the difference between the two, and that therefore the judge was absolutely correct. Especially since OS-9 was treading on pretty thin ground as it was... it is hard to see how 'OS-9' was defensible, in a lot of ways. It is, and was, a generic industry term IN THE INDUSTRY IN WHICH IT IS REGISTERED, followed by a number that sounds very much like a version number. It would be kind of like me suggesting that I should be able to make 'OS/2' a trademark... oh... wait... uh, a better example might be 'DB/2'... oh, no... uh...
It's just dumb. It's like... say you open a restaurant called 'Sam's BBQ'. It's popular, and you open another one across town called 'Sam's BBQ 2' Only you find out that someone else has a trademark on 'BBQ-2'. Taking a common and accepted generic term and adding a number to it is a questionable way to create a trademark. At best.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Two thoughts:
1. FirebirdSQL uses the name "firebird" for their project at sourceforge.net, so what will Mozilla Firebird use.(so far their are still using phoenix)
2. As Ann says, there is no problem with them using Mozilla Firebird. Why can't the Mozilla Project say we will never shorten the name to "Firebird", as they initially said they would. That way the only confusion would be had during casual conversations.
They can still use "Mozilla Firebird" and "Firebird Browser" name perfectly legally, so why don't the people at Mozilla do the upstanding thing and stop blocking on the issue, and just end the issue (I am very positive that Ann would be very happy with that solution). The Open source community shouldn't have to resort to Redmondesque legal tactics to resolve squabbles.
Sig Nazi- "No Sig for you, come back 1 year."