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Firebird Database Project Admin on Name Clash
CapnKirk writes "Ann Harrison weighs in on the "Firebird--database or browser?" name clash. Her take on things: our users feel threatened. We're responding to their concerns. AOL lawyers said it's ok, so the Mozilla team isn't interested in negotiating, but that's ok because we've gotten a lot of publicity and name recognition. And no, we don't plan on going to court." As always, a small group of users are being real asses about the whole thing. Yay.
There is no bad kind.
Ooops - nope - I guess they discontinued that, eh?
Sig-Na-Cher
I would be satisfied if Mozilla's new name was just "Not Internet Explorer".
Methinks even more people would want to use it too.
Using Not Internet Explorer 1.3...
Finders Keepers.
i second that. until i heard of this "name clash" firebird database was non existent in the eyes of many. i'm not for the phoenix name change but, firebird will serve it's purpose as a name for a great project.
I write code.
I really don't understand why the ferocity of their defense of the "Firebird" name.
One is a database.
Another is a browser.
It's also a car.
Unless, like I read in another post... it's all about publicity to just get the "Firebird" name out there.
Ah well.
-brain
People should get it thur there heads that if things are in different fields it's ok for them to have the same name....gheez
Life is like untied shoe laces; it always tripping you up and getting in your way.
...both parties get some run and no one gets hurt.
The tone of the article, to me, sounds like they're just whining. I'm not convinced that having a browser named Phoenix will harm them. Either way, I undestand them wanting Mozilla to choose a new name, but the steps they've taken seem very unprofessional.
Feel free to try and convince me.. I'm curious what others think.
it was FirebirdSQL, not firebird. But i could be totally wrong. The Mozilla team choosing Firebird does /help/ the firebirdsql project more than it hurts it. like all the 12-year-old flamers say "who heard of firebirdsql before all this?". as naiive and incredibly stupid as it sounds, they have a point the don't know they are making. firebirdsql was somewhat unknow until this whole hoo-ah. let's hope they might win some users with this... i mean 300,000 slashdot readers right?
WTPOUAWYHTTOTWPA
What's the point of using acronyms when you have to type out the whole phrase anyways?
More importantly, it will just make all the geek headlines messy. You'll see an update on freshmeat and have to double-check which product it is for.
Pontiac Firebird.
sulli
RTFJ.
C'mon, "Firebird"? Come up with something better, all of you!
Those database people should've never named their program the same thing as the browser
They should have never named it after the car and then expected that nobody would do the same to them.
Jason
ProfQuotes
And I've spent most of the last week responding to people who read about this on Slashdot and call me a spammer, a terrorist, and a sucker of moose balls.
Whose users are being asses again?
Consider Anne's Responses:
Q: Several sites, including LinuxWorld, News.com, Slashdot and Neowin.net have published articles on the conflict. How do you feel about the media coverage of the dispute?
A: "To be frank, I haven't read any of the articles. I've got a mangled database I'm trying to resurrect and I've been answering e-mails from people who object to my attempt to raise our profile."
and yet, Anne admits:
"And I've spent most of the last week responding to people who read about this on Slashdot and call me a spammer, a terrorist, and a sucker of moose balls."
Glad to see she has her priorities straight. She's been too busy responding to the flames of Slashdot readers to read any of the other articles on the conflict... ;-)
IBPhoenix are the blasted remnants of that independent open source company Borland tried to set up.
That makes it sound like she doesn't like it. I guess maybe it was intended more along the lines of "blast remnants" or "last remnants."
This reminds me of the disputes over domain names. Like whether Nissan motors vs Nissan computers has any more right to nissan.com than the other.
I believe in the first come first serve. Mozilla needs to find a new name.
GM killed the car line.
I still think Mozilla should take a clue from the automotive world, and call it what everyone else calls the Pontiac Firebird(the Screaming/Flaming Chicken- remember the giant decal on the hood?), only with the typical Mozilla twist.
"Introducing Screaming Dinosaur 7.0! Now features a Mullet theme(complete with AC/DC soundtrack) and optional CinderBlock technology, which completely disables the browser(but leaves it on your desktop, along with dozens of useless old documents and applications.)"
Please help metamoderate.
"As always, a small group of users are being real asses about the whole thing. Yay."
- CmdrTaco, advocating the tyranny of the majority since 2003.
Marvel Girl
sheesh.
"My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama
If ignorance is bliss, you must be quite happy. Many of us who actually develop against multiple databases for a living are actually familiar with Firebird the database. I think that the Mozilla people are doing a shitty thing and that they should back off and find another name. The people behind firebird have done some decent work, now why don't the rabid /.'s back off and show some respect for a solid open source project?
Who ever said that Open Source developers cared more about politics than code? Well, it's the disputes and the stories about those disputes (like this one) that make everyone feel otherwise.
I wondered at this very thing when Slashdot recently posted about the Grub search engine. Grub was a boot loader last time I checked. Hmmmm...
1. The Firebase DB people seem to almost openly acknowledge this was a publicity stunt.
2. The mozilla.org people probably should have been more understanding to another open source effort. Code of thieves and all that.
That having been said I fall firmly in the "don't care" camp. Surely there's an M$ flame to be posted or a *BSD gripe to be aired, we're too busy for this stuff...
After reading the article I fail to see which aspect of the browser being called Firebird negatively hurts them? Maybe they just want to be the top hits in a search engine and are afraid that the browser Firebird might steal that glory? Maybe they should just call it 'Phirebird' since Phoenix starts with a PH anyways and then it wouldn't piss them off but it would probably piss someone else off. You just can't make everyone happy so why bother trying.
But why did mozilla team pickup the name firebird ? I am preety sure they knew about the firebird database.
So why firebird ? I mean why create a controversy even if it's legal.
For 's sake, how difficult is it to come up with a name . Why not just call it mozilla-lite ?
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
In keeping with the fire and lizard themes, how about "Salamander" for the browser?
I think we need a /. poll on this issue - let the Slashdot croud weigh in! Here's my suggestion:
Should Mozilla change Firebird's name?
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
If "firebird" is taken, then why don't they just call the browser Phoenix?
Oh...wait...
Mordor...a magical, mythical land where women are more rare than dragons--but where every man would rather find a dragon
I've always been a Mozilla advocate. Mozilla's support for Web standards, tied with its open development cycle, powered by the remarkable bugzilla system made it immediately appeal to me. The legendary competition with MSIE is also a significant factor.
But I've really lost faith in Mozilla since this Firebird naming issue came up. It's not that I feel some kind of cameraderie for the Firebird-db people, but out of my own selfishness. If Mozilla can appropriate the name of a prominent Open Source project's name, what's to stop it from doing so again? Perhaps my project is next on the chopping block? Backed with the lawyers of AOL, I have started to fear that the Mozilla project could come to threaten my Open Source project. Perhaps they'll chose to rename their IRC client next?
When users apt-get install firebird, should they get the browser or the database? The only thing the "Firebird" name change is going to achieve is the dangerous precedent for an environment which encourages the free-for-all name grab; I know Mozilla advocates have stuck to their guns in the past on important issues, but they really need to give up the "Firebird" name. Please direct your guns towards the people who break Web standards and perpetuate broken software, not fellow Open Source projects, especially not for something as trivial as a stupid name. Life's just too short.
I visited the FirebirdSQL site and read all the information about the project there, and they always call the proyect "FirebirdSQL": The website logo, the sections, everywhere!.
i dont what does FirebirdSQL users think, but i wont get confused with "FirebirdSQL" and "Firebird", Why should we start a fight between two open source projects?
Sigs are for morons... Wait a minute...
They better shut before the real company that owns the firebird name gets a lawsuit idea..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Would GM put up with Ford naming a new truck a Firebird?
"It's a truck, not a car", Ford could say.
To most everyone out there, a database and a browser aren't that much different, they are both just "computer programs." While a mechanic could probably say a car and truck are vastly different doesn't mean that's how everyone sees it.
I know we all hate trademark disputes, and obviously, this isn't one.... but the principle is the same.
It's this kind of thing that the concept of trademark was DESIGNED to deal with, exacty: 2 things in the same field with the same name.
Oh, but a browser isn't a database tool? Trademark law recognizes software as a class unto itself.
Just like if someone named their dump truck "firebird". Pontiac could have a fit... it's still a vehicle, even if the use case & market is different.
So... as a community, how do we solve the issue?
Which pair is more similar, a web browser and a database, or a web browser and a BIOS?
It seems to me that this name change had nothing to do with trademark law or avoiding confusion, and everything to do with who has the most lawyers.
Personally, I think that the Firebird database should be renamed the Mozilla database... because, hey, Mozilla's own lawyers (ok, AOL's lawyers, presumably) have obviously decided that nobody will ever be confused between a web browser and a database.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
What about Hyundai?
Best Windows Freeware
And what type of editorializing would we have if some no-name database project stole the name of an established browser? Just because you like the phoenix/firebird project doesn't automatically make them right.
If they want to maintain clarity, all of the established firebird developers now have the wonderful repsonsibility of qualifying their projects as firebird-db or somesuch nonsense because the phoenix team picked a name for their software that was already taken.
I can't understand if this naming issue is just some publicity stunt or if the moz developers are really this oblivious to the inconvenience they're causing. I would expect this sort of insane behavior from a pair of firms with an over-imaginative PR departments trying to brand themselves. But watching this shit come from open-source developers? Depressing.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." -Voltaire
Maybe I should form a small ISP called AOL (assholes online) and see if I can gain more business in the same way as these guys. ... either that or get ripped apart in court.
Either way, quite amusing.
nb: i don't care.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story..."
Not Internet Explorer
Download Now!
.sigs are for post^Hers.
We could then keep track of which nightly dumps your prefs, which won't display PNG images, which can't export your bookmarks, which has a memory leak, which crashes whenever you move your mouse, which won't display Google, which won't let you post to K5, and which one has dupe-blocking and auto spell-checking for Slashdot.
I think we could have something here, especially with the last feature...
I found out about this name change earlier this morning as I was looking to change my Phoenix theme. I found that they have made the switch at the main theme site for Pho ... er ... Firebird here. When performing a search on the new name on Google, I found nothing about the Mozilla based browser, but I did find sites about a database I had never heard of before and my first car (1983 pontiac firebird). The results can be found here . Further investigation led me to the Mozilla homepage where the announcement is posted here. It seems that Phoenix Technologies (A BIOS manufacturer) has an embedded browser for some digital systems. Let's hope they don't have to change the name once again due to a few angry users who may become confused when they attempt to open their browser and a database opens instead.
dan
AOL caves to the people who own the trademark on Godzilla, but they are willing to step all over a project that uses the exact same name in the same industry?
They really *are* evil.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
its a lousy name for a car, let alone a web-browser or database....
In order to solve this I suggest Mozilla rename Phoenix to a more contemporary equivalent:
Honda Civic Hatchback with Go-Faster Stripes with Loud Muffler and Extra Cheese
as a viable solution
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -Tom Waits
Now, I'd never heard of the Firebird database before this. However, from what I can tell their database is called Firebird. Just "Firebird", not FirebirdSQL as others have suggested. So both the database and browser are called exactly the same thing.
Also, while it's true they are two completely different applications, they are both software that you run on your computer. That's too close for comfort. What does "Are you using Firebird?" mean exactly (could be database, or it could mean the browser).
With that said, when you use something so obvious as Firebird for the name of your application, you damn well better get a trademark or something because you should just assume zillions of others will think of using the same name. This was a mistake the database people made, for sure.
So, I think the Phoenix group is probably legally safe, but the nice thing to do would be to pick another name. I know they don't want to do this because it means more lawyer fees and coming up with yet another name. I dunno... They don't have to do this and it doesn't look like they are. In which case if I were the Firebird database people then I would come up with another name and trademark it (as painful as that may be). It's not like it was a database being used by 100's of thousands of people and they will now all be confused by the name change.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
Since calling it Firebird is a recent change, why not just pick another name if it's becoming such a big deal? Any particular reason to stick with the name Firebird for Mozilla other than the fact it's already been publicized? If they're getting so much heat from it, I think they should just pick another name right now and end this.
Developers: We can use your help.
it's all because of IBPhoenix :(
Consider you wrote some business app for linux and are trying to sell it as a "Firebird based inventory management system".
Oh its a web based system? Or it uses firebird-db on the back end?
This is the problem that those that CmdrTaco dismisses as "asshole users" have with this name change.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
To most everyone out there, a database and a browser aren't that much different, they are both just "computer programs." While a mechanic could probably say a car and truck are vastly different doesn't mean that's how everyone sees it.
The average user knows what a web browser is. The average user doesn't know what a database is. If they do know what a databse is, they will know what Access is. Nobody is going to confuse a web browser and a database. If they do, they shouldn't use a computer, or drive a car, only run in the Special Olympics.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Read the article. Think about it. They were using the name first for a software product. The Mozilla people should have done their homework. AOL's lawyers should have done their homework. Doing a quick google even points you to a whole heirarchy of sites devoted to the software ( Computers > Software > Databases > InterBase ).
...if some small, yet popular open-source project had its name stolen by a large, monolithic software company's product that we'd be all over the larger company's ass about this?
I went to the opensource database conference a few years back. I must say that even then the Firebird DB people came off as being very immature, and this behavior really doesn't surprise me.
Perhaps with all the heated argument over the name, the Mozilla browser should not be called Firebird but rather it should be named Flamethrower.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
That's exactly what I would be telling the world to get them interested in my database...
.sigs are for post^Hers.
My choice for the new new Phoenix name: AnnHarrison.
...
Look... Phoenix, err Firebird.. err whatever... It can change it's name one last time to something that even sorta resembles the Gecko/Mozzy guy....
..
What do you guys think?
TROGDOR!!!
I'm sure if we all wrote nice email messages to StrongBad, and asked real nicely, he'd let us use the name Trogdor... And all we'd really have to do is attach a StrongArm (No, not the chip) to our mozzy guy.
And hey, TROGDOR!!! the game ever works in Mozzy with the right plugins... http://www.homestarrunner.com/trogdor.html
Root for the underdof by all means - but be fair about - don't just root for YOUR underdog ....
Just name the damn thing Phoebird or Firenix and be done with it...
Need to pick a name that has implied meaning but is not actually a word so it will definitely not be previously copyrighted. How about:
Notie
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
http://www.annapmicro.com/firebird_pci.html
There's so many other things to rant and rave about.
None of this would have happened if they'd just named it "The Flaming Ostrich" like I suggested. Now they've gone and set up this whole dramatic showdown, and the only resolution is to combine the two projects into one.
Hmm... What sort of functionality would you get if you took a browser and slapped in a database backend? If it was handled wrong, you'd end up having to type:
SELECT * FROM websites WHERE domainname = "slashdot.org"
to get anywhere.
Flaming Ostrich really was the way to go.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
I'm planning to start a new project on SourceForge. It's called "a", but the bastards at SourceForge won't give up:
..for my project. In the meantime, visit my "a" homepage:
http://a.sourceforge.com
http://www.MyProjectIsCalledA.com
The lawsuit against a.com is underway. I believe 37 lines of script code as good as "a" deserves exclusive rights to that letter of the alphabet for all eternity.
Apache, watch out! You're trying to dilute my project name twice!
I have 25 other projects under development. More info soon!
Sincerely,
root
PS: Anyone developing or using machines as my name are subject to lawsuits. I highly suggest you change any usernames you happen to have that match mine immediately.
# Erik
I really don't understand why the ferocity of their defense of the "Firebird" name.
Quite, considering that he oldest OSS Firebird (that I know of) is a BBS system that has been around for years. The copyright for Firebird BBS version 3.0 is dated 1999.
I get the impression that many people feel that if it's not in English, it doesn't exist.
The average user doesn't know what either Phoenix or Firebird are. If you asked the average computer user to identify what Mozilla, Firebird, or Phoenix were you'd probably here "that lizard", "a car", and "some place in Arizona".
"People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
Minisoft, Macrosoft, Millisoft, Megasoft, Nanosoft for all I care...some1's bound to get it ;-)
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
My desktop gets covered with useless old documents and applications just fine on its own. Adding that feature would just mean more bloat! We can't have bloat! The browser should have a directory the size of a small text file! It shouldn't take more than three seconds for me to download it on my dialup connection, after all...
But wait, you say, Slashdot is already a well known site.
Yes, of course it is. But there's a huge difference between a news site and a weblog, so they shouldn't have any trouble with my naming scheme, right?
And if Cmdr Taco says otherwise, he's just a whiny little bitch.
Disclaimer, for the humor impaired: this is sarcasm.
Just call the browser "Flamewar".
Maybe we should call the new lightweight Moz browser Pinto.
Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
How about calling it "Mozilla" or "Mozilla Browser". There's no conflict with that name, right?
I agree. Even without having actually gotten to using it directly, I've had my eye on that db for a while now. As soon as I have my own server I'll probably look into replacing MySQL with Firebird.
As for Mozilla Phoenix... never used it, never wanted to use it. Vanilla Mozilla is fine with me.
Daniel
Carpe Diem
Oh yeah, I know you do because I submitted one about the whole wide world and you fools rejected it to post this feacal package.
This story has been given way too much publicity and the guys raising a stink are jerks who are doing it for the publicity. Please don't post the story in duplicate or triplicate as seems to be the mode lately.
Thank you.
Liberty.
Below is a mail of protest written by us, and two replies frrom Ann Harrison and Paul Reeves. Paul's reply is good, but Ann on the other hand should tonne down her marketting voice and understand that she's part of a community and not a here to exploit the name of Interbase's DB.
:
First our mail.
Subject: In protest
To: harrison@ibphoenix.com
CC: postmaster@ibphoenix.com
We at "Broken Dreams : Sound DB" are protesting your terror acts against the Mozilla foundation, users and releated community.
Broken Dreams has been a long time Interbase user, we switched to FirebirdSQL only recently, but your current tactics has made us question our switch and review other opensource databases. We are in the process of switching over to postgresql.
Thus, I'd like to urge you to stop these terror attacks against other opensource projects.
Thank you.
Shawn from Broken Dreams : Sound DB
To which Ann harrison spat thus
From: "Ann W. Harrison" <aharrison@ibphoenix.com>
Subject: Re: In protest
Shawn,
>We at "Broken Dreams : Sound DB" are protesting your
>terror acts against the Mozilla foundation, users and
>releated community.
Thank you for taking the time to let me know how our efforts appear to you. I've answered several - many messages accusing me of encouraging spam and now understand that any unwanted email (including yours) is considered spam by some.
Well, not by me. Spam is the stuff that tells me about horny housewives, guaranteed mortgages, and penis enlargers. People who are upset by something I've done deserve to have there concerns dealt with seriously.
Now, you didn't say spam, you said terror. That really seems strong - even for the type of message that some of our more abrasive users can put together. Maybe I underestimate them, but I've never been burned, cut, shot, or blown up by any of their mail.
Seriously though, we did contact Asa - several of us - and his answer was "The AOL lawyers say it's legal." When we responded that legal or not, it wasn't friendly to take over someone else's name, we got no different answer.
>Broken Dreams has been a long time Interbaseuser, we
>switched to FirebirdSQL only recently, but your
>current tactics has made us question our switch and
>review other opensource databases. We are in the
>process of switching over to postgresql.
PostgreSQL is a fine database and the developers I know there are really good people. I wish you the best with their product.
>Thus, I'd like to urge you to stop these terror
>attacks against other opensource projects.
And I'd like to find some what to protect our name -
however little known it may be.
Again, thank you for writing - without communication there
can be no progress.
Regards,
Ann
And paul's reply.
From: harrison@ibphoenix.com
Subject: Re: In protest
Broken Dreams wrote:
> We at "Broken Dreams : Sound DB" are protesting your
> terror acts against the Mozilla foundation, users and
> releated community.
I think you are overstating your case. I am not aware of us committing any terror acts against the Mozilla project. I am aware that they have recently attempted to appropriate the Firebird namespace for a browser.
Our initial reaction was one of shock and disbelief. This was also the initial reaction of many Firebird users. We published the contact addresses for leading members of the Mozilla project and encouraged people to write to them to express their feelings.
We are supposed to live in a democratic society. Writing letters of complaint seems to be an good, non-violent form of protest. You are using it yourself.
I'd recommend that more reflection may be required before you migrate to Postgres. After all, I'm still using the Mozilla mail component to write to you. Stand back a little and let the initia
Everybody knows that a Lamborghini, Porsche, or Ferarri is a lot faster than a Firebird anyway. :-)
My rights don't need management.
Next thing you know, folks'll be upset because there are two different software projects named "Flame," two different "Zeus" projects and two different projects named "NoSpam".
Or hey, maybe someone will try to trademark "toolbar" or "olympic." Oh wait, I think that actually happened.
Come on folks. If you want a unique name, pick a name thats unique. If you pick a common, obvious name, expect others to do the same and get over it.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Phoenix, the lightweight opensource mozilla browser, was renamed to Firebird.
Firebird, the open source database, is supported by a company called IBPhoenix.
Firebird, the database, also happens to be licensed under the IPL, which is based on the Mozilla Public License.
The Mozilla Project's Asa Dotzler has said that "the chances of someone confusing a web browser and a relational database are about as slim as someone confusing a loaf of bread and a bananna". There have now been complaints from Mozilla camp about IBPhoenix inciting their users to contact, en masse, Asa (and others) about this matter... I think that the Mozilla people should really just be glad that the users were only asked to send email, rather than to snail mail packages of mozilla-branded banana bread. Because that would be kind of funny.
In any case, I think that a project who's name and logo comes awfully close to infringing on a certain Japaneese movie franchise really ought to think carefully before stepping on friend's toes regarding name rights.
__
Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
Free iPods - now in the UK!
So John, Bill Gates says we're going to rollout are there any complaints?
Yeah Slashdot, "as always, a small group of users are being real asses about the whole thing. Yay."
Ave Molech Setting
What about this compromise: Mozilla switches to become Firebird, and the Firebird project moves to Mozilla.org. The browser gets the name, and the database gets a lot of hits :-)
It's just another browser based on gecko. I think all of these offshoots should be named with some string of numbers that is the sum of RAM required + the amount of diskspace in K) + version nbr / the square root of the number of text editors for Linux * the number of failed office suites + 1.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
...and it worked for me. I'd never heard of Firebird, the database, before this flamewar. I'd bet that not only had most Slashdotters never heard of it, they'll remember it the next time the name comes up.
Pretty sneaky, if you ask me. Now where did I put that tinfoil hat?
There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
I like Purity and Archetype as browser names. But Humdinger would be funny, as it's one of those words that sounds vaguely pornographic but isn't. Paragon would also be good. In fact, I think I might change my browser to report itself as Paragon.
Do not touch -Willie
How about Mozilini?
I appreciate both teams. Mozilla was the little gecko engine that could, that never gave up and eventually plodded to stability. Mozilla is one of the most successful open source projects today and a major bastion against a microsoft-locked internet.
FirebirdSQL was born from Borland's utter mismanagement of Interbase. The only reason they didn't kill the product outright is because of the great user community. Only a determined and personally involved user community has salvaged the interbase code from years of neglect to a very respectable open source database system. Firebird
is the leading developer of the interbase code today, eclipsing borland's own efforts in many areas. It is every bit as competitive a system as mysql and postgresql.
Both products clearly deserve respect and admiration. Anyone who disparages the core accomplishments of either group would be hard pressed to do better.
This makes the current scandal all the more sad. I think everyone who has ever seen a news group or a major mailing list understands the need for good etiquette on the net.
Regardless of the legal issues, it is bad etiquette for the mozilla folks to rename phoenix firebird. Of course the Mozilla folks *can* use phoenix, but it's not very nice. There's plenty of name space for everyone.. Be a good neighbor and pick a non-conflicting name. This is social skills 101, a total no-brainer- Don't alienate people for no good reason.
The Firebird (SQL) users should publicly appologize for advocating such guerilla protest tactics. I saddens me that many people's first impression of this great project will be formed from the emotional rantings of a minority. Do protest publicly, but do so with logic and reason.
I hope this all blows over quickly.
There would no name clash, as well as a clearer name recognition for non-users. When I see firebirdSQL, I know what it is supposed to be... When I see "firebird Browser" I will be able to understand clearly what it is supposed to be, without any prior knowledge.
Also, since Firebird (the browser) is meant to be just a browser, it does not restrict the scope.
S
This little dust-up makes me think of the clashes we're always reading about: Microsoft v. Oracle, HP v. Dell, and so on. Slashdot readers are continually ridiculing large corporations for their seemingly stupid behavior.
Yet here we have a perfect example of how even a small group of people can do stupid things. Corporations are just collections of people, with their own ideas, egos and goals.
The next time you want to shout at Google for becoming "The Man" just remember that getting even a small group of people to act with grace and common sense can be extremely difficult.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
The Browser Formerly Known As...?
I'm still in the process of reading The Cathedral and the Bazaar, more specifically the chapter Homesteading the Noosphere and it seems very applicable to this. The "hacker ethic" would seem to dictate that two open source projects shouldn't share the same namespace. It's not quite the same as forking a project or removing a contributor's name from a project, but given the gift culture of open source, it does dilute (the work made by contributors of) both gifts/projects.
I can see Ann Harrison making that point without actually quoting a not-quite-codified rule. The fact that there is such an uproar over indicates a schizm in the hacker community and possibly the whole hacker ethos.
I like how Ann helps point out that divide by making it a virtual David vs. Goliath between the enthusiast developers and AOL.
FIREBIRD is nothing special (no offense to the DB dudes ;) Mozilla should just go looking for another name - at least, out of respect another very worthy open source project.
This naming problem was obviously known very early on. The Type 4 JDBC driver is officially called JayBird to avoid problems with the Borland Type 3 and 4 driver named InterClient. But the actual JDBC driver class is called org.firebirdsql.jdbc.FBDriver. If everyone in the project umbrella could have agreed from the beginning, this might not have happened.
Good or bad, they have their publicity.
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
To most everyone out there, a database and a browser aren't that much different, they are both just "computer programs." While a mechanic could probably say a car and truck are vastly different doesn't mean that's how everyone sees it.
Yes, but they ARE vastly different computer programs. Your comparison of a car & a truck would be like comparing a small web browser to a large web browser; they both do the same thing, in the same space. To make your comparison more apt, you'd have to compare the firebird sports car to a jumbo jet. That's much closer to how different the phoenix browser is from the phoenix database.
I've personally renamed my Phoenix browser as "Firestorm". Make it sound all cool. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a drunk college student.
--sig fault--
That's not a sun set, its a bird on fire!
-lisa to bubble boy bart
Lo, is there anything the simpsons does not cover?
In keeping with the fire and lizard themes, how about "Salamander" for the browser?
That's brilliant! And really much better than Firebird. Putting out fires, being immune to fire (to flames?), etc. - things you actually want in a browser! Plus the obvious flexibility of an amphibian...
Here's a little quote about the etymology:
Newts and Salamanders
Newts and salamander have also been associated with evil and mischief. Salamanders have been linked to fire as far back as the times of Aristotle (384-322 BCE.); the word salamander is of Greek origin, and translates roughly to "Fire-Lizard". It was believed that salamanders were immune to fire, and could extinguish fire with skin secretions. In 1607, Edward Topsel published the book The History of Four-Footed Beasts and Serpents, which, along with illustrations of newts and salamanders resembling serpents and dragons, hypothesizes about the ability of salamanders to extinguish fire, receive nourishment from fire, and pass through fire unscathed. This leads to the origin of the of the vernacular name, Fire Salamander, given to the species Salamandra salamandra.
- Amphibian Folklore
This Like That - fun with words!
BOTH products rename
;-)
Firebird Database -> Fire'base
Firebird Web Broswer -> Fire'web
At least it would be less confusing -- can't have that now !
You can't make me read an article! I'm a journalist... my source made no mention of her repairing databases.
.sigs are for post^Hers.
First off, Firebird is a cheesy name for a browser. It sounds cheap as-in-crappy.
Second, which project took the name first? The team holding the name longest SHOULD bitch, regardless of the size of their usebase.
Third, this will cause confusion among end-users who when told about the browser, might search, find the database, and go what the heck? At the worst, they say screw the browser, at best they send e-mails to the project admin asking about the browser annoying the heck out of the admin!
Derek Greene
Choosing names is hard - you have to search the whole world - it's a lot easier nowdays (before the 'net I worked for a company who's name turned out to be a set of shelves in one country, a suppository in another ..... and who can forget the Vax [it sucks ... turned out to be the name of a vacuum cleaner elsewhere]) - but you do have to do the search and stake a claim - these days registering the .com domain seems to be the way to start.
Interesting www.firebird.com has a 'Phoenix' link on it - neither of which has anything to do with Moz or even computers ... that alone should have indicated that they are playing in an already busy name space and should look elsewhere
You would actually be suprised how having the same name as an unrelated product will bring bone-heads out of the woodwork. I run a small computer security consulting company call "Vortech Consulting". There also happens to be a company that makes performance auto parts called Vortech (most often heard in GM commercials for their vehicles that contain "Vortech" engines).
In 1997, when I chose the name for my computer company, it was spin on "Vortex" and "Technology" - I poked around until I found a domain name that was available (vortech.net) and settled on the name after checking with the Secretary of State for Ohio (where my business is located) and determining that there were no issues using the name.
However - today I get 2 or 3 emails per week and even the occasional phone call from somebody that managed to navigate a web site about Computer Security, web hosting, and computer network consulting to find my contact page and call me about their Vortech super-charger. (Some of which get very upset when I insist that they have called the wrong company).
While 2 or 3 confusions per week is not worth getting worked up over, I am fairly certain that these two projects will have a much greater level of Internet exposure than either of the "Vortech"s will. I can imagine that a great deal of time will be spent by both project teams to try to explain "you are at the wrong site, go see these guys".
I'm going to jump on this bandwagon.
Firebird is an excellent mature database that has continually improved since the project formed a few years ago,and is worth considering any time you want support for stored procedures, triggers, and transactions like PostgreSQL, or the ability to deploy on both Linux and Windows like mySQL.
Mozilla is a great project with much more visibility than Firebird. It would be nice if the Mozilla team could spend a little extra time to come up with a name that isn't already being used by an open source project. How hard could that be?
Salamander wins in my book.
I loved that game...
I didn't complain with somebody stole my name. We both make software products, I happened to be around first, and they also happen to be a larger company with many more users, but we both have the name trademarked. The key is that the trademarks only apply to the usage of the name, and even as both being software, the usage is definately different enough that they can keep using it and there is nothing I can do about it.
Morphing Software
there already is another trademarked Phoenix *browser* ... the law is clear, you cant do that. but there is no firebird *browser* which is what matters... the fact that Firebird BBS and Firebird SQL were doing just fine sharing the name before, what has changed?
This is going to be more and more of a problem as time goes on, just because there's a limited supply of desirable and pronouncable names. Plus, the names that are registered trademarks keep getting deleted from the permissible set of assigned names.
If cars and pharmaceuticals are any indication, software should start to use generated names that are still suggestive of desirable traits.
From what I understand, big money is paid to come up with names like Viagra.
To give you an idea of all the pitfalls. I recall hearing that the Chevrolet Nova was less than a hot selling vehicle in the Hispanic market because "no va" means, well, "no go", not exactly the best name for your next car.
Pretty soon the only names left are going to be a.out and install.exe .
"Provided by the management for your protection."
That's right, software is right in there with cameras, scales, movie projectors, vending machines, TVs, and possibly life-rafts.
So, from a lawyers-battling standpoint, had the Firebird DB people enough money to stand up to AOL, it's very probable that they'd have a real case. But I'm not sure this is meaningful either way for the moral/ethical argument.
Interesting that Ms. Harrison says that people will inevitably shorten "Mozilla Firebird" to just "Firebird," but doesn't bring up the question of whether people scrupulously always add "BBS" to the name of the Firebird BBS software. Quite the convenient oversight, that.
Please tell me what the problem is here.
I hate all sigs, even this one.
Ok, if it doesn't matter:
user@computer# firebird
Question: what do I get - a browser or a database?
That's a problem and if I had them installed I would care.
I can see why people are getting upset right now, but it all seems a bit silly, especially if the Mozilla project does drop the integrated Mozilla suite in favour of separate components. When that happens the browser component is going to be called "Mozilla" by most people regardless of what it's supposed to be called. I think the "Mozilla Firebird" suggestion is a reasonable compromise and probably better for the Mozilla project as it maintains the Mozilla brand better than "Firebird" alone.
Few people realize that the Phoenix browser's new name is an acronym:
Firebird: I Renamed Everrbody's Browser Into a Relational Database
Follow me on this one:
- "Gecko" is a cool name
- it's pretty clearly owned by the Mozilla team, so no contention with other [software] groups
- already has name recognition (among geeks at least)
- most web searches for gecko will lead to a mozilla project. "Firebird" will lead to anything but!
Then just start calling the "current" Gecko the "Gecko engine". Gecko (the browser) will consist almost entirely of the Gecko Engine, which is logical, and other browser-based apps that use the Gecko Engine won't cause too much confusion if they still have old docs around that say "based on Gecko", since it'll still basically be true.
The Mozilla/Phoenix team has been beating their heads trying to come up with a new name for Phoenix.. why not rename one of their own projects out of the way so they can reuse the Gecko name?
It's simple, really:
Gecko -> Gecko Engine
Phoenix -> Gecko
Let's scrap this whole Firebird debacle...
In the Portland, Ore area and like card games? Check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/portlandgames/
Nah.. too recent.. I say we call it "Mosaic"!
In the Portland, Ore area and like card games? Check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/portlandgames/
My fave is Venti(TM) from starbucks. Yes, Starbucks was able to trademark a NUMBER. Venti(TM) is 20 in Italian. Silly thing is, though the hot venti(TM) drinks are 20oz., the cold ones are 24oz.
Yesterday someone at netscape.public.mozilla.general suggested the name "Ashbird". Sorry, I don't have a ref right now, but google would find it quickly. "Ashbird" sounds catchy, I think. Or maybe "Flamebird"?
"Firebird" is another name for the Phoenix. The "firebird" is part of Russian folklore (and I thouht American Indian, but I can't find any links to support that).
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Open Source community takes this as an opportunity to show that name collisions don't need to be resolved, and no real problems occur?
-Max
I don't mind editorial comments, but inflammatory words like this are uncalled for and unprofessional. That's all this discussion needs is more flaming. Thanks CmdrTaco.
Firebird is about as good as its going to get. All of the cool names that were suggested will never be adopted because AOLTW doesn't want Phoenix to knock Netscape off.
I think the Mozilla group should give a long, hard look at what they are doing before continuing with the Firebird name.
I mean, it's sort of an all right name, in a kind of plebian sort of way. But it doesn't come close to something like "Google", which has become a very useful verb.
So, Mozilla, why not re-evaluate, and consider a name with verb potential?
I offer one which will forever remind people that the Mozilla group does care about getting along with others in the Open Source community; and that they have a good sense of humor. And of course there is the all important verbing capability. The name is best approached as an acronym spoken with a phony Canadian accent:
"Browser Without A Name, aye?"
Bwana!
Who could hear that and not resist the urge to tell the guys hanging around the Jolt machine that "I just spent the morning bwanaing after some really cool case conversions..." Or taking on the Tarzan role in the cyberjungle, with phrases like "I told Bwana to go there"?
Bwana. Sort of like Google. Sort of like YACC. Sort of like GNU for that matter. A name that could change forever what we now call "browsers".
This post has been brought to you by the letters 'b', 'w', and 'a', and the number 'n'...
I have two things to say:
1)This is an incredibly silly argument.
2)Has anyone considered that if the renaming occurs, there will be a little grumbling, and then everything will be forgotten?
What I don't understand is why the Firebird Database organization feels threatened. It's not like they'll go out of existence if the name change occurs. Also, I have very little legal knowledge, but I thought that name overlap was alright if there was no ambiguity between the two. I may not be a good example of a normal person (evil grin), however I don't think I would ever have a problem telling a web browser from a database.
-Dae
"Alle reden vom wetter. Wir nicht." - SDS Sozialistischer Deutscher Studentenbund.
j00 4r3 3n73r1ng l337 w0r1d.
At the moment, if you go to Google, type in "Firebird" and click the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button.
Currently the Firebird database page is displayed (http://firebird.sourceforge.net/)
If in the future I type in "Firebird", click the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button and a Mozilla
page is displayed, then they have done a major disservice to another open source project.
By making it harder to find information about the Firebird DB, they will have eaten into its
potential client base.
http://jesus.everdense.com/
Screaming Dinosaur gets my second vote. Imagine the splash screen for that. :-) And imagine all the reasons technology pundits would come up with for why the dinosaur is screaming: It's about to crash. It feels sick because it's too bloated. It's laughing at IE.
You are right in many of the particulars of the case, while, I think, being somewhat wrong in your conclusions.
First of all, they started calling their system software releases 'MacOS Number' at MacOS 8. The moniker had been used before then; though 7 was still officially 'System 7', a lot of people referred to it as MacOS 7 or 7.5 or whatever, because 'System 7' couldn't be used unless you had a context... it's too broad. Likewise it's not patentable.
Second, the Macintosh operating systems after 7.x were always called, not Mac OS9, but 'MacOS 9'. The dramatic majority of sites, based on a little check I just did via Google, do indeed call it that way. In fact, if you run a search for the following on Google, the top 8 sites you get are sites that talk about the OS-9 operating system, not the Macintosh in any way, shape, or form.
"OS 9" "OS9" -"MacOS 9" -"Mac OS9"
So, the pages that talk about OS-9 are, by and large, pages that talk about OS-9. In fact, I, as a Mac programmer and sysadmin, have very rarely heard of people calling MacOS 9 'OS-9'... I can't think of a single instance. When people are talking about it without bringing up the Mac beforehand, it's always 'MacOS 9'... when you're already talking about the Mac, it's almost *invariably* just 'nine'. As in, "Well, it runs under ten just fine, but it just crashes to the desktop when you try to run it on nine. I even tried it on nine-two-two.'
Ultrascience did indeed sell OS-9 for 68000-based Macintoshes. However, by the time MacOS 9 came out, Ultrascience had discontinued their product quite a long time hence, so there was no danger of their being harmed.
Finally, I have not read the decision, but as I understand it the judge didn't have to claim that there would be no confusion. What he needed to claim was that that Apple's trademark was sufficiently different from OS-9 that such confusion was unlikely to occur, OR that the two products were in sufficiently different categories that they did not compete with one another.
Personally, I would have to say that anyone who needed OS-9 would be able to understand the difference between the two, and that therefore the judge was absolutely correct. Especially since OS-9 was treading on pretty thin ground as it was... it is hard to see how 'OS-9' was defensible, in a lot of ways. It is, and was, a generic industry term IN THE INDUSTRY IN WHICH IT IS REGISTERED, followed by a number that sounds very much like a version number. It would be kind of like me suggesting that I should be able to make 'OS/2' a trademark... oh... wait... uh, a better example might be 'DB/2'... oh, no... uh...
It's just dumb. It's like... say you open a restaurant called 'Sam's BBQ'. It's popular, and you open another one across town called 'Sam's BBQ 2' Only you find out that someone else has a trademark on 'BBQ-2'. Taking a common and accepted generic term and adding a number to it is a questionable way to create a trademark. At best.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Having 2 open source projects with the same name WILL be confusing. "No harm done" is simply not true (imagine if this happened to YOUR open source project--publicity for a week, then confusion forever afterwards).
/firebird
For example, "Firebird" can be used as:
1. Google search term
NOTE: every web page won't contain the word
"browser" or "dbms" (i.e. page 2+ of articles)
when they happen to contain "Firebird"
2. firebird.sourceforge.net
3. firebird.
3.
Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Firebird in any way. I happen to use PostgreSQL for my free DBMS needs. I just think it is highly irresponsible of the browser team to do this especially AFTER the previous naming conflict. Why should a different project be penalized for the irresponsibility of another project?
..after the guy who wrote the original "Firebird Suite"?
Why is it called COMMON sense when so few people have it?
I find this whole episode extraordinary. AOL has no reason to use "Firebird". The name has been in use for so short a time virtually nobody has ever heard of it who has heard of Phoenix. The name is already in use. AOL and the Mozilla team are not only wrong to refuse to consider a name change, but also in their initial refusal to speak to the IBPhoenix people, even after acknowledging the clash.
I've never used Firebird, until this I'd never even heard of it. But these actions are so off the wall, so intragently unjustifiable and so remarkably anti-cooperation that I have no intention of using either Mozilla, Phoenix, or Netscape until they resolve this issue. And, as someone who maintains a substantial webapp relying heavily on Javascript and CSS, I say tough titties if Mozilla users are locked out because of something we haven't tested in Gecko-based environments. If they don't want to play by the rules of fair play and mutual cooperation, I don't intend to either.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I would say that if there is a firebird db command which is simply "firebird", then firebird the browser should respect that, and they should not use that name for their binary, simply out of concern for not making things confusing for users/packagers/etc.
Boy talk about picking a real flamebait post to start a thread at slashdot.
The spin CaptKirk puts on the post, misses most of the points Ann makes anyway, best to go and have a read for youeself.
You've got to wonder how many people are on the sideline cheering and putting up this stuff, not becuase they want to solve the problem, but just because they like to see a fight.
Cheers
Mark O'Donohue (yes a firebird person)
They shouldn't name it Firebird. They should name it "The Web" ... so people can be told to start "The Web Browser" ... and cluebies won't sound nearly so dumb when they say "yeah, I'm running The Web on my computer."
Branding foolishness never ends.
-- Dossy
Dossy's Blog
Exactly,
Even though I love Mozilla, I think the mozilla team behaves like the good old MS on this issue... Just because they are bigger they think they can get away with kicking around the little guys.....
I thought emacs already had a browser built-in, along with the kitchen sink.
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
If only more people could be this mature.
The "problem domains" here are very different: one is a browser, the other is a database. With careful communication (the hallmark of a good computer scientist) there would be no problem. Pity that Aunt Maggie would tend to confuse them.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
... the freeking thing. I've been waiting for the next stable release to switch to it full time. It's always "any day now".
:)
Yes, I hope they change the name, but I'll take it however I can get it.
All the good ones are taken...
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Now that was funny - even the reply with the toupe.
I'm picturing a 70's Deliverence Burt Reynolds face, complete with the big bushy 'stache and sideburns.
Upgrades might feature the Longest yard Burt and even the Boogie nights Burt (No teling what this might generate, though!)
..........FULL STOP.
They called it Zhar-Ptitsa.
Less is more !
Nah, I think Microsoft has it's eye on the name Pinto as a replacement name for IIS.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
However, Mozilla itsef has already inspired several derivated names, such as Chatzilla (IRC), Bugzilla and Crockzilla. So, keep the tradition and rename Phoenix to Browzilla. Everybody will understand that it is a browser and it's a part of Mozilla project.
Same way, call Mail application as Mailzilla. And don't forget about Addrezilla, Linkzilla and Compozilla.
Less is more !
Why don't they just call it Linux?
SARCASM:After all, no one could ever confuse a web browser with an OS.
Since Mozilla is cross platform this will be great. This way when I say "I just installed Linux" no one will know what I just installed OR what OS I'm using. All they'll know for sure is that I have a computer
See, no confusion at all.
Seriously, the Mozilla team should find a new name. It's now like their new firebird name is well established already. I don't think it's even been a month since they picked this name.
They have no good excuse to keep this name, and doing so will make them look very bad. Their full of shit if they think keeping the firebird name won't cause confusion. I can prove them wrong with one sentence:
I just installed firebird.
See it just created confusion, now drop the name already, geez.
Life is too short to proofread.
I agree with a lot of the posts here that Mozilla should have changed the name to something that somebody was not already using. Firebird is taken in the software sector and it is a database.
Also it's quite a good database for OpenSource. I know people here swear by PostgresSQL and MySQL (amongst others) but neither could fill the functions that I required. A database with native Unicode support and an ODBC driver that handles that Unicode correctly, and it's Open Source/free. Brilliantly allowed me to develop a couple of software packages that I've been able to sell.
So I could be biased in this, but why did the Mozilla/AOL people knowingly adopt the name. They should just change it to something else, it's not like they've been using the name for long. Also why is an Open Source evangelist website like Slashdot in favour of the corporate AOL over a truly useful Open Source development.
Yeah, that's it.
The logical step now is for the Firebird project to rename their project to "Mozilla". It's only fair.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Personally, I think they should come up with a nautical style name, or something generally to do with exploration, would definately be much cooler, IMO.
Firebird... Bah, that's just stupid.
Galeon, Konqueror, Safari, Explorer(a bit too generic)... Names like that are good, IMO.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
From firebird's docs page:
First Mozilla.org changed the name from Phoenix to Firebird because they were afraid of Phoenix BIOS lawyers.
Now Mozilla.org is telliing Firebird Database people to fuck themselves because they are a small opensource community with no money for lawyers. That's right ? Is this the OpenSource spirit ?
MOD THE CHILD UP!
Mozilla has the best name recognition. I mean even Microsoft Internet Explorer is forced to humbly identify itself to web servers as Mozilla compatible "Mozilla/4.0 (Compatible MSIE #, OS)" in the USER_AGENT field.
/usr/local/firebird. I can just see it, "I went to open my (database/browser) and instead my (browser/database) openend up." Red Hat will probably call them "Red Hat Web" and "Red Hat Database" and stick 'em in /usr/bin and /usr/lib for their users so that wouldn't be as bad;-) but let's get serious.
IE 5: "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 2000)"
Netscape 4: "Mozilla/4.0 (X11, I; Linux 2.4.18-27.9.0 i586)"
Mozilla: "Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; en_US.UTF-8, en_US, en; m18) Gecko/20001010"
Konqueror: "Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Konqueror/3.1; Linux)"
Only Opera, Lynx, and Mosaic don't show Mozilla in the USER_AGENT field.
Renaming the browser to Phoenix, Firebird, or anything else besides Mozilla or Netscape is a mistake.
Besides, do we really want users untarring both projects into
I use Mozilla, Phoenix, and Firebird. I like both projects but Firebird had the name first and their database software supports SQL92 standards better than some other free rdbms packages and lets me write things like nested queries, etc. In other words, don't knock it unless you're a SQL database professional who's tried it.
I know it sounds corny, but I don't see why we all can't get along. Besides. I want my Mozilla to stay Mozilla! If they must change the name, let the community vote on a new one.
"As flies to the wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for sport." - William Shakespeare, King Lear
Is it just me, or has CT become disturbingly bitter since the infant years of Slashdot? Early article posts and their accompanying banter were fresh, clean, and invigorating. These days, everything is bad unless it's anti-DMCA or pro-amateur rocketry.
:)
Perhaps I'm crazy, but I've been observing the change for a long time
Surely there is no new precedent set here for a vocal user minority tainting the image of the group. Why the bitterness?
Perhaps CT needs a hug!
I'm a geek, and I'm sure as hell wouldn't rule in their favor if I was a judge.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Oh, wait, I said that before about this issue...
Never mind...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
I really don't understand how anyone could defend Mozilla's actions, here. Even if you don't understand the trademark argument, don't y'all have a grasp of "good manners"? What happened to being considerate of other people? Part of professionalism, in my book, is conducting business in good-faith. Using someone else's trademark simply because your lawyers tell you they can beat the case doesn't pass the "good faith" test by a mile.
THERE IS NO TRADEMARK
Lots of things are called "firebird", I don't see why one random group feels they can claim it for themselves just because they have something named that. If they had named it something unique, like "firebase" or something, then they might have a legitimate complaint.
people can't just take pieces of the general language for themselves.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Trademark law dosn't recognize unregistered trademarks at all, especialy when they're general terms used by lots of diffrent people. If Moz should have to give up the name, then so should these database people, since there has been lots of software in the past with that name.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
five minutes ago.
guess when i'll forget (again) that Firebird is a database?
five minutes from now.
enjoy your crybaby 10 minutes while it lasts.
i'm gonna start my own database and call it "your mom" and i can't wait to start writing INSERT statements.
www.pixelectric.com
Firebird? I thought they released games on the C64!
The database wasn't the first software project to use that name, why should they have the right to be the last?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If they're afraid their google rank is going to drop they should see what happens to us when someone searches for "Install Windows!"
Now if only we had thought of that whole email bomb campaign in the 80's.. sigh...
When I first saw the news about Phoenix being renamed to Firebird, I thought "hey, isn't there a database project that's called Firebird?".
Firebird database, Mozilla Firebird? But wait, Phoenix BIOS is also called Phoenix BIOS, not Phoenix. I know, legal blah blah.
So why doesn't the Mozilla team choose another name? Firebird has already been chosen by that Interbase derrived database project some years before they figured they'd name the browser Firebird. What were they thinking?! And to be honest, the new name pretty much sucks anyway IMHO. Why did they also rename Minotaur to Thunderbird? That was a cool name, plus I'm not aware of any other project or product called Minotaur. Oh, but wait isn't Thunderbird that AMD manufactured processor?
So basically, what they did, they chose two names that already exist. That's pretty dumb.
The database, since "Firebird" is a codename for the browser component of Mozilla and should not be applied to actual shipping products.
It's not a codename, it's the product name. Phoenix was the name of the browser, which with my Gentoo system I typed "emerge phoenix-cvs" (as I wanted latest version) to download and build. When I type "emerge firebird" it automatically downloads and installs the database. The two products having the same name is going to cause a lot of confusion in this area.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
I think there's no reason to believe that the shared name will confuse anyone and the value judgments from people (like you) in the Firebird database camp are bolstering supporters of Mozilla rather than creating empathy.
Stop acting like you're being oppressed. Since when did the word "Firebird" become IBPhoenix's creation to tell people what they can and cannot do with it? How does it help the situation for the Firebird database community to use rhetoric like, "Our marks are not there for the taking and our advise is that the law is on our side?" Or, "we take this as a slap in the face to the entire open source community?" Trust me, this was not a slap in the face -- a slap in the face would've knocked some sense into these witless people.
If they were really interested in just straightening out the situation, they wouldn't be making such inflammatory remarks. They could've registered their opposition in a more civil manner and not incited their users. And if Mozilla chose to ignore these complaints, then they should have just accepted it, rather than trying to badger Mozilla into using a different name. Even if you don't believe that Mozilla should use the name "Firebird," you cannot agree with IBPhoenix's attempt to generate negative publicity for another open-source project and strong-arm Mozilla into using a different name. It's an absolute shame that a good project is run by such complete assholes.
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
I posted in the first Firebird thread my email to Asa Dotzler and he has taken the time to provide detailed responses twice to many of my points, which cover most of the posts on this thread. I have to say I am completely on the side of IBPhoenix and find AOL/Mozilla acting unconscionably with the potential for real damage to the SQL project in the future, but that I am very grateful that Mr. Dotzler has responded in such detail. He said he would be following up and I am still hoping they will make an enlightened decision.
.NET driver, spinoff projects, etc.
I will extremely briefly summarize Mr. Dotzler's answers in the hopes that this will reduce duplication of effort and help more people at AOL and on the Mozilla team understand the significant issues. This is in direct response to the enormous damage to Slashdot incurred by CmdrTaco once again with his completely slanted, juvenile take on what is essentially a major corporation's lawyers deciding an open source project is fair game.
My original post was 'Reasonable Reasons for Mozilla not to use "Firebird" name' and included ten points of argument.
This is a summary, though I have kept Mr. Dotzler's responses verbatim (quotes) where it
seemed important. Any mistakes are probably mine.
1. Confusion during automatic update (rpm firebird-xxx.rpm/apt-get firebird) in future distros
Dotzler: packaging confusion easy to solve and premature since pkg not yet made by moz team
2. Firebird DB not yet in popular distro despite advanced technology, so will be hurt by loss of logical package name
Dotzler: "we'll name it something that won't be confused with other apps."
And Firebird DB wasn't the first software project using the name.
3. Firebird DB team will have to invest energy into keeping people from being confused
Dotzler: "I have yet to see any real confusion.. that's nothing a little website cross linking couldn't easily solve."
4. Plenty of confusion is possible, e.g.
a) a db browser for firebird db, which could even be built with mozilla's XUL;
b) mozilla might gain a data storage component that competes;
c) what if Open Office wanted to use Mozilla and Firebird DB;
d) as people use mysql for email db, how to explain to clients that a system uses
the high power Firebird DB for email without meaning Mozilla email client which
has inferior data store.
Dotzler: 'People using Mozilla's products will call it "Mozilla" something.
People using the Firebird RDBMS may, in certain rare situations have to clarify
that they're talking about a database. Not a real problem'.
5. Firebird DB people have already fought plenty of battles (with Borland) and
I was impressed with Ann Harisson when I met her at Open Source DB conference
(I am not a user or biz partner of the DB). The name is a brand and also a tool for
differentiation between Borland's Interbase and the superior Firebird codebase.
And, Firebird as a browser name is a Synonym for a competing browser!
Does Mozilla plan to rely on scorched earth tactics i.e. building browser empire
on the "ashes" of other companies?
Dotzler: 'I think this is getting around to the "hurt feelings" that I mentioned
above. No one seemed to get all emotional about the poor little BBS project that was
wiped out of the Google search results when the database people decided that it
was more important for them to consider the "feelings" of a pre-existing open source BBS
project. How was mozilla to know that with many existing Firebird software projects
all happily co-existing that many+1 would be considered "bullshit"?
6. There may be lots of companies using the "Firebird" name, but Mozilla and the
Firebird DB are the two highest profile, most important open source projects, and there
is danger of conflict in many areas, e.g. sourceforge site,
At least firebird+linux search on google will be half as useful as it could be.
Dotzler: Google results alone not a big dea
Most. Idiotic. Argument. Ever.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
firebirdie
or
firebirdIE
He had this huge unibrow going on... We called him 'browzilla'. So, you an see that using that name for a browser scares me. ;)
What we really need is for the Mozilla/Phoenix/Firebird team to distribute a simple utility that will change all mention of the browser's name to whatever the user wants to call it.
Then one person could keep "Phoenix" while another chooses "Firebird" and yet another selects "Salamander".
As for the distribution name, I lean in favour of "The browser formerly known as Phoenix" :+)
I don't understand why the broswser component needs a separate name. Why isn't it just the "mozilla browser" and the "mozilla email client", etc.
They've got a very well established name in mozilla. Why dilute their presense with lots of other names?
Maybe they should rename their product 'Moose Balls'. You can bet it would achieve product name recognition and no one would be likely to steal it.
For what it's worth, my interview does not say "that's ok because we've gotten a lot of publicity and name recognition." It does say that this is not the sort of publicity we want.
Nor does it say "And no, we don't plan on going to court."
Mozilla is for people who want to be part of the development of a leading web browser, they are the ones who write code and report bugs. Normal end users do not do this. So there is no reason for end users to use Mozilla (if we disregard the fact that Mozilla is _so_ much better than Netscape Communicator.) As for Firebird it is more or less the same thing, especially now when Mozilla is split up. If you want to test a browser for bugs, you know what you're doing, and you're not going to download some database software.
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.