DSL Hardware for Wiring Condos?

Condo-Netwerk asks: "I'm trying to prepare a proposal for my condo building to be our own DSL provider. With 160 units, we should be able to get a T1 and keep the price fairly low. But what's the up-front cost? Which hardware should we use? What do we need to know about Copper Mountain, Avidia, etc. to do our due diligence prior to selecting hardware? I'm also helping a friend spec cabling for a new 30-unit condo building he's putting up; he wants to pull cat5 and split a DSL line from the phone room to each unit. Caveats? Experiences? Is it better to use cat6 or fiber?"

Comments

hmmm

[fjordboy]

Actually, at the camp I work at, they're building a big new building and wiring it all for internet access. My first response would be go wireless, but since that isn 't always feasible, I'd just say go the simple and tried and true route w/ cat 5. I mean...come on, can you go wrong with cat5?

Re:Why DSL?

[Ron Harwood]

Seriously. Wireless or wired ethernet... why add in the complexity of the DSL hardware?

Unless you absolutely need to use the existing copper or something - in which case a DSL solution would work nicely... ...but since you're able to run wire - go with 100Mbps ethernet to each unit... and if you have to control access do it with a patch panel... ;)

Does everyone want it?

[Rumbler]

Seriously - that's the first thing that came to mind.

If only 25% of people in your complex want the service, depending on which provider you're getting with, installation and continued service could be a shaky proposition.

Re:Does everyone want it?

[DDX_2002]

Well, if it's a condo, unless 50% (or whatever your condo bylaws say) of the people at the meeting vote for it, it ain't happening in the first place.

Man, I wouldn't trust a condo board with something like providing me internet connectivity for love nor money... I don't feel like putting network issues up for a popular vote or trusting the condo board to "get it" when it's time to allocate funds for equipment, maintenance, etc. Unless you're going to hire somebody to maintain it, or get yourself a contract, do you really want to be the free tech support guy for *160* users who know where you live.

Bandwidth sharing

[isomeme]

Depending on the likely residents, I'd be a bit worried about sharing a T1 (1.5 Mbps) between 160 units. Even if you figure that at peak only 10% of the units are doing bandwidth-hungry operations (media streaming, large file downloads), that still leaves only around 100 kbps per unit, which is pretty bad. If 20% try for 'heavy' access at once, they'd be better off using dialup. In other words, 30 teenage kids or similarly high-bandwidth users could crater your entire scheme.

Why not run ethernet?

[danielgast]

DSL was invented to provide a solution to a single specific problem (lack of quantity and quality of copper for long distance runs from the CO to the home). DSL makes some tradeoffs, including very expensive hardware, in most cases low upstream, and in many cases interference in the audio portion of the line that has to be filtered at each extension. If you're wiring an apartment or even a small neighborhood, why not consider pulling a second cat5/6 and providing regular 100mbit ethernet? Your cost dissolves down to a managed switch (and that can be eliminated if you're willing to manually plug/unplug ports from the switch), and the customer end becomes whatever cheap ethernet card they'd have to have anyway to plug the DSL modem in. For the fortune you save in DSLAMs and other expensive telco grade hardware you could probably buy everyone who posts a comment in this article a pizza.

-Dan

Re:Why DSL?

[barnaclebarnes]

I would have agreed with this comment until a few weeks ago until I found out.

- It is probably cheaper to go wired when you are in an apartment block or building a new housing development.
- Wireless sucks when you have a lot of people on it. (Cebit this year was a mess).

Let someone in the business do it

[jj_johny]

I researched this for a business proposal and found out that there were already a bunch of companies in my area that do this type of work. Although you might find it fun, interesting and cheaper, it will quickly escalate into lots of crap and no payback for you. Yeah, everyone else will be happy but you will be left with a lot of headaches and renewed respect for the phone company - imagine that. Yeah find a little ISP who wants to do it and don't get yourself in the thankless position of getting screwed by your neighbors.

As for what I would do, don't go DSL unless you have to. DSL is only needed if you are really going over the limit of Ethernet and you want the rate limitiing built into most DSL boxes. It ain't like slapping in a Cisco router or your linux router in there.

The sizing should be in the 20 to 40 users per T1 and then you have to do load balancing between them - more fun and games.

And for your friend who is cabling his building project, he should put both CAT5+/6 and fiber. Only expect to use the copper for now but at only 50 bucks a unit to rough it in its worth it when you really want to do it.

Hire a pro

[semanticgap]

Wiring is the kind of thing best left to people who deal with it every day. I'd get a cabling company to give you a quote on running CAT5 to every unit and instaling a patch panel in some closet. They'll have the right tools to pull the cable, will be able to test it and will be responsible for fixing if anything isn't working.

I really wouldn't recommend pulling the cable yourself unless you really know what you're doing. BTW, depending on where it's pulled, it might need to be plenum or riser rated, and there may additional fire/code regulations for your area. You may need a license for cabling - but the cabling people would know all that.

Re:Why DSL?

[jdray]

Depending on the layout of the units, cable length may or may not be an issue. With 10/100 Ethernet, the max cable length is around 100m. I seem to remember that restricting the speed to 10 Mbit triples the max cable length, but that bit of data is suspect.

Most commercial buildings have a wiring closet on each floor that houses switches for that floor. The switches from each floor are connected to a central (REALLY FAST) switch that typically has all the routing rules on it. Routers for Internet and other network connections are also connected in here, giving everyone on the whole network access (per permissions) to "the world."

If your condos are distributed widely, I'd keep considering DSL but try and figure out a way to go with Ethernet. I'd avoid wireless for the time being, but consider other technologies like IP over power lines.

There are other posts below that detail other considerations to be made when providing your own network service, such as developing a TOS and all that's encumbered there.

Hidden costs / SLAs

[MightyTribble]

What's your Outage / backup strategy?

You could run the entire block off a low-end Cisco router, but are you budgeting for a Cisco service contract and / or a 'hot spare' router?

How about line monitoring and alerts? Backups / service contracts for your switches? Environmental systems to keep your equipment closet nice and frosty? Factored in the electrical costs of that to your business plan?

Who's going to support the system? What do you do if a switch craps out at 3am? Running a community ISP can be fun, but it's *less* fun if you've not thought of these things before you start. :)

Don't forget the lawyers

[tbase]

A lot of good posts about the hardware and connection, but don't forget your EULA. Some things to consider:

1) Have a good privacy policy
You may need to fall back on it if the authorities (or the RIAA) come knocking for your logs. If they badger you into turning them over without a court order, you could be in one of those stories about the criminals sueing because they got caught.

2) Look at the big ISP's agreements for ideas
You may see something you hadn't thought of.

3) Lawyers are much more cost effective when used to prevent you from being sue, rather than defend you after the fact. Think about having one draft or review your agreement.

Not trying to scare you, just make sure you're covered if the guy on the third floor turns out to be a pedophile, terrorist, or (gasp) file trader. :-)