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60G Nomad Zen vs. The iPod
war3rd writes "According to an article in BetaNews, Creative is going to be releasing an upgraded Nomad Zen at the end of the month that is not only larger than the iPod, but cheaper too. At $400 for 60G ($100 less than the 30G iPod), the new Zen will sport more features, although it may be slightly larger than the newer generation of iPods. I have been putting off buying an MP3 player until I felt that the arms race was settling down, but the new Zen is making my mouth water. So what does the /. community think, are Creative and Apple going to be the top players in this arena? Is it time I jumped onto the bandwagon? One thing is for certain, I am going to be watching the reviews closely."
Looking to draw Windows users away from Apple's wildly popular iPod, Creative has released a mammoth update to its NOMAD Jukebox Zen portable audio player. The hard drive based Zen boasts an immense storage capacity of 60GB - twice that of largest iPod.
The NOMAD Jukebox Zen sports a sleek aluminum case and USB 2.0 connectivity for fast song transfers. Creative has priced the Zen at $400, $100 cheaper than Apple's new 30GB iPod.
"We've heard from our users that they would love to see a huge capacity NOMAD Jukebox Zen to take their entire music library and their digital files wherever they go," said Creative CEO Sim Wong Hoo. "And of course they demanded a great price. With the NOMAD Jukebox Zen with 60GB we've delivered a breakthrough capacity in a portable player."
Creative claims a battery life of 14 hours in the NOMAD Jukebox Zen, slightly higher than that of the iPod. The Zen offers the ability to edit playlists directly on the device, and a "Find" function to quality search thousands of songs. An optional FM Wired Remote is also available featuring an FM tuner and microphone.
But despite Creative's superior capacity and lower price, Apple has leapfrogged its competitors in terms of dollar market share. According to NPDTechworld, Apple held 27 percent of the market in the fourth quarter of last year, followed by S3's Rio unit with 10 percent.
Apple's third generation iPods debut May 2, while Creative expects to ship the 60GB NOMAD Jukebox Zen later this month.
I have been using a nomad jukebox 20gb for about 3yrs at about 4 hours per day in my car with not one complaint over the lifetime of the product. I plan on going for the sleeker zen when i pick up a new car shortly and run an aux-in cable to the head unit.
The iPod is awesome, but you are paying for the apple name and commercialization. Save some money.
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artlu.net
Oh, and let me guess, can you not get firmware upgrades for the iPod? Because of course we all know how Apple feels about upgrades...
Hmm. I updated mine just fine...
Neuros Audio hopes to do just that soon with linux support as well.
According to my calculation, the Nomad Zen is over twice the size (volume) of the iPod and 60% heavier.
Apple iPod (Gen 3)
103.5mm(H)*61.8mm(W)*15.7mm(D) = ~100k cubic mm and 158 grams
Nomad Zen
112.6*75.9*24.5 = ~209k cubic mm at 268g.
Furthermore, the set of functionalities that the two players offer are different (sync vs FM capability for example) so their value to user is highly different.
While I like iPod to support other formats (WMA and Vorbis Ogg) but I am satisified with AAC and MP3 for now.
nomadness.net has had postings in its forums about hacking and upgrading the Jukebox Zen back in December 2002 / January 2003.
More recently, a guy has created a complete guide to upgrading your Creative Labs Jukebox Zen to 30/40/60GB.
Enjoy!
About how they will triple the price of this box.
They have revised the rate structure though:
Before they proposed $21.00/GB which would have added $1,260 to the cost of this box.
Now the rate strucure looks like:
1 GB or less 11.1 cents/MB
$11.50 on 1st GB
$7.98/gb on Gbs 2 to 5
$5.98/gb on Gbs 6 to 10
$3.99/gb on Gbs 11 to 20
$1.99/gb on Gbs 21 or greater
I'll leave the calculation on a 60GB drive as an exercise for the reader.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Quick illustration: Size of iPod vs. Zen
Oh, and you speak as if there is not a HUGE iPod community? Ever been to http://www.ipodlounge.com/ and the 1000+ pictures of iPod around the world?
It does not play WMAs though.
In December we purchased an original Nomad Jukebox (10GB for $100 after Mail-in-Rebate). Exactly 96 days after purchase, the unit failed to boot. Creative's warranty, of course, was an impressive 90 days. Thinking back to the knee-jerk reaction of declining the Best Buy extended warranty, I felt like quoting some Khan from Star Trek II.
Anywho, I take care of my devices. The Jukebox still has the plastic covering the LCD. Ghetto, ya dig?
I engaged in an epic duel with Creative's tech support via e-mail. Sending extremely detailed reports to them, and met in return with extremely canned responses. Most often, the responses asked questions that I had already answered in the previous mail. Obviously, this wasn't going anywhere.
To make matters worse, it had been over the '6 to 8 week' waiting period and I still had no rebate check. Customer Service said 'sorry' and acknowledged the irony that the unit was out of warranty and broken before Creative could even be bothered to mail my rebate. And by that I mean they didn't acknowledge the irony. At all. They just didn't care.
Instead of pursuing the matter further with Creative's customer service, I used the 'protection' feature of my credit card to reimburse me for the unit, and swore off Creative for future products.
I don't doubt the Nomads have gotten better through the revisions. However, I try to judge a company equally between the good products they make and how they handle thier failures.
Buyer beware.
My warranty has expired and my harddrive has stopped spinning - I think I am going to follow this guide while installing a new one.
Size
iPod: 4.1 x 2.4 x 0.73 inches
Zen: 3 x 4.4 x 1 inches
Weight
iPod: 6.2 ounces
Zen: 9.5 ounces
It should also be noted that the Zen can get FM radio stations with an optional remote control and can use USB 2 or Firewire. The iPod has a bigger screen, but it can only use Firewire. In addition to mp3 format, the Zen supports WMA and WAV. The iPod supports mp3 and AAC audio.
My Blog Sucks.
The number one reason I am buying an Ipod is because it will have the best support for my Mac. I see Nomad finally supports OS X (must be within the last week or two), but I'm not going to trust something that new.
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The second reason is because it offers some PDA style functionality such as a calendar, alarm, contacts and notes (hopefully notes will let us read full length books similar to palm books).
3rd, rumor mill has it that there is a recording capability which would be really cool.(http://www.ipoding.com/modules.php?op=modlo
4th, MPEG4/AAC instead of mp3.
And finally, because I really need a $500 Solitare/Brix game. And not to mention, it looks much nicer (IMO) than the Nomad.
The Specifications page for the 20GB Zen states it has a built-in rechargable lithium-ion battery, and is powered off DC 5v in. I'd assume the new one uses the same system.
live(free) || die;
See....Archos Jukebox Multimedia 20GB hard drive. Has video playbeck and a small screen.MPEG-4 SP with MP3 stereo sound, near-DVD quality. Resolution CIF-352X288 @ 30f/s. AVI file format, reads XviD and DivX(TM) 4.0 & 5.0.
Also plays MP#'s AND RECORDS IN MP3!!!!
Just to let ya know it also takes still pics and VIDEOS !!! All this for $359.00 Oh yes interface is USB 2.0.
If I recall, AAC came up second to Ogg Vorbis in quality tests (based on listener selection, not wave form analysis, in which case I know vorbis still won but I don't know who came second). So in the absence of vorbis playing hardware (unless you're going to wait for a Neuros) the AAC does make itself an attractive selling point.
Audio-only players are so 90s. Personally, I'm saving my money for the Archos AV320, or something like it. Big screen, MP3 *&* MPEG video playback and record. The lack of wireless, though, is a sore point.
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http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/play.htm
http://shanebrinkmandavis.com/homepage/JBMM/Prere
Da Blog
Da Blog
Sure you can throw away your money on either of these 2 gadgets. Or you can check out the Archo's jukebox multimedia 20.
.RAM, .AU, or .MIDI files either let alone my 8-tracks, but do I rank about it at the top of my lungs trying to drown out everyone else enjoying their paltry MP3's.... Nooooo.
- 20gb (40gb coming)
- 8 hr battery life
- DivX video playback to Tv or screen
- built in 1.5in lcd screen (in color natch)
- Awesome sound controls
- USB 2.0 and Firewire (natch)
- Optional SmartMedia and Compact Flash readers
- Optional 1.2 mega pixel still and video camera
- MP3 recording via built-in mic or external
- Video recording module
- Remote Control
- ALL of these items (including optionals) come in cheaper then an iPod!!
P.S. I used mine daily for the last 6 months and it's incredible! Someone once asked me if it was solidly built. I threw it over my shoulder to demonstrate bounced it off my floor picked it up and it hadn't missed a beat!
Now the cons to be fair:
- The battery isn't easily changed
- The playlist support does NOT match the iPods
- The camera attachment needs a flash
- Video recording module has mixed reviews
Oh and it does NOT play Ogg/Vorbis. But would you people please get over it! Nothing portable plays my
BTW - here's the picture of the Zen. The USB port is a miniature plug and the 4-pin SB1394 (they include a 6-pin to 4-pin cable in the box) plug to the right.
The Archos is the way to go. I've been using mine now for almost a year. The more storage the better as it can be used for general file storage and dumping movies and pictures from digital cameras. The latest one supports video out and mpeg playback and is still cheaper than the latest iPod!
I find it very useful to transfer files to and from work along with my entire music collection.
I couldn't give a rats a@@ about any DRM laden formats such as Apple's new one.
The USB 2.0 only version of the Zen does charge off of the USB. Just make sure it's off when it's plugged into the port. If it acts weird (won't turn on) when you unplug it, just use a paper clip in the reset hole. No problems! :) I do wish they'd fix that bug, but it's one I can live with. I know, the iPod doesnot need a reset hole.....whatever, I still love my Zen and I am only doomed to use Playcenter since I do not want to pay for Notmad. PLaycenter is not that bad....if you only use it to manage your Zen. I never play music in it.
Gorkman
Yep, it was mentioned a few days on various mac sites.
E.g. www.ipoding.com
It only seems to be on the most recent revision of iPod released.
The file transfer protocol is proprietary and has only been partially reverse engineered. See libnjb.sourceforge.net for details. The Linux tools for getting songs onto the device currently suck goat nuts.
The iPod on the other hand, appears as a mass storage device (generic SCSI hard drive on top of Firewire). You can easily "mount" the iPod and use "cp" to copy files to it. This is very different from the Zen, which appears as a random USB device and requires special programs and scripts to put data onto it.
I bought a Nomad Zen 20GB USB 2.0 for $212 and I think it was a waste of money. I'll probably give it to someone who uses Windows and buy an iPod.
My other first post is car post.
Haha, that was I who posted that! I was about to do it again actually in this thread... Everyone please read it! Might make you think twice about supporting them in the future. Granted I think this Harvey fellow is a moron with no real access to the facts, he is still a company representative.
Jeremy
Both the iPod and all of Creative's stuff need proprietary software that keeps you locked out of direct control of your music files. The iPod can store data files, but on a different "realm" from it's mp3 area, so you don't have direct access to your mp3's unless you are using iTunes, which would be wodely despised if it was made by Microsoft.
... dump 10 GBs of your own mp3 files on one of these and you will know what I mean when you see 5 entries for "The Cure", "TheCure" "Cure", "The_Cure" and "Teh Cure".
Same thing with Creative, except it's even worse since Creative can't code for shit, whereas Apple can make good software when they want to. So yeah, there's ephpod on the PC for the iPod, there's notmad for the Zen, etc, but you are always in the same boat: closed systems, closed software, limited access.
I couldn't be happier with my 20 GB Archos FM Recorder. It's a little bulky and not as good looking as the iPod or Zen, but it records mp3's in real time, has direct USB2 connector, mounts like an actual hard drive volume on your desktop with full access to ALL files on both Mac and PC - no drivers or extraneous software needed, battery lasts for about 10 hours of actual usage, there's enthusiast, homebrew firmware for it that adds a ton of features and improves performance, you can hack it yourself, it sounds great, It's got a built-on FM radio, it records mp3's in real time from a built in Mic, line-in OR the FM radio, it can withstand significant shocks, you can make your playlists with good old Winamp exactly the same way you would make any other playlist, just save it on your Archos and go. And possibly by favorite feature, you don't have to organize every single ID3 tag in your reams of mp3 files, because you browse your music through watever directories you setup, not an forced ID3-based sorting system like iPod or Nomads, which royally blows
And finally... You can get this gem for $270 retail. I don't see how you can beat that, unless style is a deal breaker for you.
I have a 20gig Archos Jukebox. It's a souped up mp3 player. In additition to storing and playing mp3s, the thing has a little LCD screen, and it plays MOVIES! Or it can output the signal to a TV.
Additionally, it has compact flash and SD adaptors, so you can download the pictures from your camera to the device. This is handy when travelling: you can empty your CF cards and browse photos on the Archos whenever you feel like.
Additional size is always a plus, but stats rarely tell the whole story.
Witold
www.witold.org
witold.org
If you rip them yourself, you can disable DRM in an AAC file. Plus, who says you have to use AAC? It still plays MP3s fine.
Agreed, Archos + Rockbox kicks ass. This is truly one of the best examples of open source I've seen yet. The feature set of Rockbox blows away the standard Archos, and new features are being added all the time. My favorite new feature will automatically pause the playback when you turn off the ignition in your car (when hooked up to the car cigarette lighter).
Other cool features of the Archos: MP3 recording, FM tuning & recording (on the FM recorder models, not currently supported in rockbox), built-in batteries are rechargable AA's, so a spare set is easy & cheap (except the FM model).
One caveat... Be sure to get either the Recorder or FM recorder model, not the Player or Multimedia. The player is supported by Rockbox, but due to hardware limitations & a bad interface, isn't a good choice. The Multimedia is not supported by Rockbox, and likely never will be. Who really wants to watch movies on a postage stamp size screen anyway.
You can also get a nifty driver and power toy that let's you mount the music partition of any creative nomad (including zen) as a normal hard drive, accessible from Windows Explorer. Totally circumvent playcenter. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/plus/dme/portable devices.asp#PTAudio
You know that the AAC files that the iPod playes don't have to have DRM in them, right? Just because the file format supports it doesn't mean you need to use it on files you create.
Mod point free since 2001
After an obsessive amount of research on both the iPod and the Zen, I bought a Zen.
.. I got the Zen for $300, which was $200-less than a comparable iPod.
.. I like to be able to listen to WHAT I want, WHEN I want, without having to futz with the iPod after each song (pre-programmed playlists have never worked well for me.. I have spontaneous music-needs
.. From what I've read, it's quite easy to upgrade your Zen to 40 (or even 60!) gigabytes. This always appealed to me, in case I find my music collection suddenly growing by a factor of 4
.. These features weren't deal-breakers for me, but I figured they'd be nice to have (especially the voice recording).
.. because the Zen looks AMAZING (it easily rivals the iPod in this regard). The metal-outside feels so much sturdier as well, and unlike the iPod, doesn't scratch at ALL.
After using the Zen extensively, I returned it for an iPod.
Initially, I was attracted to the Zen for these reasons:
- Price Value
- "Playlist on the Fly" Options
- Expandability
- FM Radio / Radio Recording / Voice Recording (with add-on remote)
- Looks.
Everyone here who has been ragging on the Zen's looks has a) never seen one in real life or b) has no tastes
I ended up returning it for these reasons:
- The user-interface was AWFUL (IMHO). To get to a particular artist would take me at least twice as long as it takes me on my iPod. Little quirks - like having to scroll to "OPEN" before you could browse an artist or album got annoying pretty quick.
- The screen is small.. it's still very usable, but not nearly as easy-to-see as the iPod's.
- The scroll-wheel was a bear to use, and scrolling through long lists was not fun (this was after a firmware-upgrade, which improved this problem somewhat).
- The buttons were not overly-easy to press, which made using the Zen a challenge when using one hand. This wasn't a huge problem, but after seeing how easy the iPod is to use, I realized how the Zen is lacking in this area.
- There are NO accessories for the Zen (unlike the iPod, which has cases, stands, docking stations, etc, etc.) - This alone, however, was hardly a deal breaker, but being stuck with Creative's case wasn't fun (it's bulky and ugly).
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Oh, one other significant difference between the two is the support you will be getting if you ever have a problem with your player. From everything I've read, Creative's 90 day-support is anywhere from "decent" to "awful", and Apple's 1 year support is nothing short of amazing (this is simply based on stories I've heard, not any statistics). Still, I was uncomfortable owning the Zen knowing that Creative only supported it for 90 days.. that's unacceptable for a consumer product of that price.
People like to compare the software that goes along with each of the players, but that's pretty trivial IMO. For the Zen, get Notmad Explorer (It'll save you a LOT of headaches), and for the iPod, get ephPod (It'll save you a LOT of headaches). Both of those programs are amazing, and make transferring to your portable-player a cinch.
I'm now a happy owner of an Apple iPod (a 20-gigger). Using some coupon codes I found for Dell, it only cost me about $420 - which is only $70 more than the $350 Zen (they discontinued the Zen's rebate, correct?). If FM-Radio, voice recording, WMA support, or expandability are essential to you, by all means, go with the Zen. Otherwise, I'd recommend the iPod to anybody.
Of course, before you buy EITHER player, you should go down to your local CompUSA and hold both of them in your hands. This is important, do not skip this step!
If anyone has any questions about either player, just ask...
Raven001
I just picked up a 15GB iPod (slightly smaller than the 30Gb) and am enjoying the intergration with iTunes as well as the new Apple Music service, my only gripe is that if you're storing your music on a network drive it can take a little while to get things sync'd the first time.
<rant>The iTunes 4 app doesn't mutitask as well as prior versions did either (at least on a dual proc machine) and there's a big red flag in the success of the Apple product... Its an Apple only software/hardware package. Sure the iPod runs on PC's with MusicMatch, but does the music service. This alone could be the death of the music service. I hope Apple is ready to release some sort of patch/plugin for Windows based systems.</rant>
Another hitch of the new iPod is the connector for the dock on the bottom. Not only does all old iPod car chargers etc not work, but it requires wires coming out of both ends to plug into your car stereo! What happened to everything out of one end. Other than that Kudos to the designers, everything was simple to get out of the box (nice design in and of itself), set up and get running.
AF-Design, web development.
The problem isn't their firewire implementation, it's the fact that Creative plays fast and loose with the PCI 2.1 spec and so does Via. If you bring the two together they don't work well at ALL. I had to install a ton of patches just to get audio playback to work well on my KT133a based mobo. I finally gave up on trying to get my iPod to sync via the Audigy and got a 3 port Belkin card barebones online. Haven't had a single problem since =)
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I was reminded recently as I waited in line for two hours to download drivers from their website for the third time (Unexplicable disconnection from their site during the first two tries) never to purchase another Creative product again. Nobody else makes you wait until there's only 5-10 other people downloading... Can't they spring for some decent hosting? Perhaps they should try to reduce the size (30MB!?) of their driver files if they cant afford the bandwidth. Six hours is a long time to wait for a single driver when you've got a 1.5Mbit connection.
If only they'd just stop buying companies that make cool stuff and turing it to shit...
That's not exactly rocket science or a complex programming effort. Rather, it's a five line USB hotplug script on Linux (using rsync) that works with every player: iPod, Zen, whatever.
Playcenter has this feature as well, it's called "auto sync", but it is rather simplified. If you delete a file on your Jukebox it doesn't delete the corrasponding one on the PC. Neither does it update when you change a MP3 tag.
Here is a page that describes the fact that Dolby supports AAC, but it doesn't look like it has anything to do with "Dolby Digital Surround sound".