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60G Nomad Zen vs. The iPod
war3rd writes "According to an article in BetaNews, Creative is going to be releasing an upgraded Nomad Zen at the end of the month that is not only larger than the iPod, but cheaper too. At $400 for 60G ($100 less than the 30G iPod), the new Zen will sport more features, although it may be slightly larger than the newer generation of iPods. I have been putting off buying an MP3 player until I felt that the arms race was settling down, but the new Zen is making my mouth water. So what does the /. community think, are Creative and Apple going to be the top players in this arena? Is it time I jumped onto the bandwagon? One thing is for certain, I am going to be watching the reviews closely."
I've been using a Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3 (30gb) unit for the last year and 10+ hours a *day* and have no complaints. Solid unit. I can not only play MP3s, but also WMA files (sorry /.-ers,,, I have sinned).
The unit also easily stores data files. w00t!
IMHO, the zen is an easy choice - twice the storage, $100 less, tons of reliability, and more features.
Btw, there is also a HUGE Nomad community too! I'll cite Nomadness.net as a great example. Good forums and good Nomad news.
iPod sports AAC. That's the kicker. I'd rather have quality than quantity. Besides...you really gonna fill that 60Gigs with music? I don't think so.
I got nothin'.
Looking to draw Windows users away from Apple's wildly popular iPod, Creative has released a mammoth update to its NOMAD Jukebox Zen portable audio player. The hard drive based Zen boasts an immense storage capacity of 60GB - twice that of largest iPod.
The NOMAD Jukebox Zen sports a sleek aluminum case and USB 2.0 connectivity for fast song transfers. Creative has priced the Zen at $400, $100 cheaper than Apple's new 30GB iPod.
"We've heard from our users that they would love to see a huge capacity NOMAD Jukebox Zen to take their entire music library and their digital files wherever they go," said Creative CEO Sim Wong Hoo. "And of course they demanded a great price. With the NOMAD Jukebox Zen with 60GB we've delivered a breakthrough capacity in a portable player."
Creative claims a battery life of 14 hours in the NOMAD Jukebox Zen, slightly higher than that of the iPod. The Zen offers the ability to edit playlists directly on the device, and a "Find" function to quality search thousands of songs. An optional FM Wired Remote is also available featuring an FM tuner and microphone.
But despite Creative's superior capacity and lower price, Apple has leapfrogged its competitors in terms of dollar market share. According to NPDTechworld, Apple held 27 percent of the market in the fourth quarter of last year, followed by S3's Rio unit with 10 percent.
Apple's third generation iPods debut May 2, while Creative expects to ship the 60GB NOMAD Jukebox Zen later this month.
What about us who want a good MP3/OGG player that is under 100bucks?
--sig fault--
Interesting how the iPod has become the standard by which other players are judged. Interesting that the submitter has found a player that is both larger than the iPod (a good thing) and also slightly larger than the iPod (a bad thing). Maybe being specific about when we mean capacity in GB and when we mean physical dimensions wouldn't be such a bad thing...
Lasers Controlled Games!
is a cheap version of ipod that sports maybe 1GB and has an insanely long battery life. What kind of insane moron needs compressed audio with 60 GB of room.
Maybe the next logical progression would be to sport a small plasma screen and play dvd's and divx. These things already had enough room.
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Go canucks, habs, and sens!
The selling point for me is if it can record like the Jukebox 2/3. This is key when you want to record your dj sets at clubs or parties (which I have done many times using the older Jukebox models).
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -George Carlin
Oh, and let me guess, can you not get firmware upgrades for the iPod? Because of course we all know how Apple feels about upgrades...
Hmm. I updated mine just fine...
Neuros Audio hopes to do just that soon with linux support as well.
According to my calculation, the Nomad Zen is over twice the size (volume) of the iPod and 60% heavier.
Apple iPod (Gen 3)
103.5mm(H)*61.8mm(W)*15.7mm(D) = ~100k cubic mm and 158 grams
Nomad Zen
112.6*75.9*24.5 = ~209k cubic mm at 268g.
Furthermore, the set of functionalities that the two players offer are different (sync vs FM capability for example) so their value to user is highly different.
While I like iPod to support other formats (WMA and Vorbis Ogg) but I am satisified with AAC and MP3 for now.
nomadness.net has had postings in its forums about hacking and upgrading the Jukebox Zen back in December 2002 / January 2003.
More recently, a guy has created a complete guide to upgrading your Creative Labs Jukebox Zen to 30/40/60GB.
Enjoy!
I don't know. That's a great price, but it's a Creative product so I have a feeling it's not as good as it sounds.
See, I've used Creative audio products since the days of the original SoundBlaster... and Creative really doesn't do as good of a job as they used to. These days they have horrible drivers, false advertising, and practically nonexistent tech support. They release a new driver update around every six MONTHS, even when there are dozens of outstanding bugs to fix; and cards like the Audigy barely did half of the things they advertised on the box and on websites.
So anyway, this thing sounds cool... but if I were you, I wouldn't buy one without finding out a LOT about it and making sure I'm really getting my money's worth. You really can't trust Creative anymore.
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
About how they will triple the price of this box.
They have revised the rate structure though:
Before they proposed $21.00/GB which would have added $1,260 to the cost of this box.
Now the rate strucure looks like:
1 GB or less 11.1 cents/MB
$11.50 on 1st GB
$7.98/gb on Gbs 2 to 5
$5.98/gb on Gbs 6 to 10
$3.99/gb on Gbs 11 to 20
$1.99/gb on Gbs 21 or greater
I'll leave the calculation on a 60GB drive as an exercise for the reader.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
The iPod has a more ergonomic and intuitive interface.
The iPod has better construction.
The iPod will work with the iTunes Music Store when it comes out for Windows later this year. The Zen won't. What does it work with, WMA's? Yes, for those wonderful WMA music stores that are all the rage nowadays.
The iPod is kicking its ass in the marketplace, and for good reason.
What the ideal MP3 player is:
-The size of today's ipod or smaller
-Storage capacity of 5GB+
-FM Radio (I like to get NPR without carrying around a seperate device)
-Good sound quality
-Formats: MP3, WMA, AAC, and OGG
-Price: $250
I think this is easily achievable with today's technology. My money awaits the first company to make one.
Zen almost gets it but too big. IPod almost gets it but no FM tuner.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
In December we purchased an original Nomad Jukebox (10GB for $100 after Mail-in-Rebate). Exactly 96 days after purchase, the unit failed to boot. Creative's warranty, of course, was an impressive 90 days. Thinking back to the knee-jerk reaction of declining the Best Buy extended warranty, I felt like quoting some Khan from Star Trek II.
Anywho, I take care of my devices. The Jukebox still has the plastic covering the LCD. Ghetto, ya dig?
I engaged in an epic duel with Creative's tech support via e-mail. Sending extremely detailed reports to them, and met in return with extremely canned responses. Most often, the responses asked questions that I had already answered in the previous mail. Obviously, this wasn't going anywhere.
To make matters worse, it had been over the '6 to 8 week' waiting period and I still had no rebate check. Customer Service said 'sorry' and acknowledged the irony that the unit was out of warranty and broken before Creative could even be bothered to mail my rebate. And by that I mean they didn't acknowledge the irony. At all. They just didn't care.
Instead of pursuing the matter further with Creative's customer service, I used the 'protection' feature of my credit card to reimburse me for the unit, and swore off Creative for future products.
I don't doubt the Nomads have gotten better through the revisions. However, I try to judge a company equally between the good products they make and how they handle thier failures.
Buyer beware.
I hear lots of people say things like this. "Macs are way too expensive for the speed of the machine" or "MP3 player X is a lot cheaper than an iPod".
I understand this... I used to believe it too. The error is in assuming that the alternatives are all essentially equal... all mp3 players play mp3's, and computers are equal save for the speed of the processor.
That's not the case. I can't explain it other than saying that there is a design quality and esthetic that is different in the Apple products. You won't believe it until you own one, but once you do, you understand the price difference, and realize it is negligible... that in fact all MP3 players are not the same. All computers are not the same.
I boycotted XP and switched to Mac, while cursing the increased cost. Not any more. I recognize the difference between my Mac and my PC, and I know the differences are well in excess of the cost.
Same is true with my iPod. It's the 3rd MP3 device I've owned, and it's cheaper compared to buying other devices, not using them, and having to re-buy an iPod.
That's my take. Hate to sound like a ravenous Mac-head, but... well... I am one. Now.
Size
iPod: 4.1 x 2.4 x 0.73 inches
Zen: 3 x 4.4 x 1 inches
Weight
iPod: 6.2 ounces
Zen: 9.5 ounces
It should also be noted that the Zen can get FM radio stations with an optional remote control and can use USB 2 or Firewire. The iPod has a bigger screen, but it can only use Firewire. In addition to mp3 format, the Zen supports WMA and WAV. The iPod supports mp3 and AAC audio.
My Blog Sucks.
Creative has to be right up there with Microsoft in terms of their consistant and blatant contempt for their own customers.
It's been over two years since Creative bought out Aureal, and they still have neither released a card that supports Aureal's A3D 2.0 standard (still lightyears ahead of any version of EAX), nor open-sourced the drivers for the old Aureal cards.
I can't think of a single hardware company I'd be less likely to give my money to. (What, me bitter about my old Diamond MX300? Why yes.)
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
Audio-only players are so 90s. Personally, I'm saving my money for the Archos AV320, or something like it. Big screen, MP3 *&* MPEG video playback and record. The lack of wireless, though, is a sore point.
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http://shanebrinkmandavis.com/homepage/JBMM/Prere
Da Blog
Da Blog
Sure you can throw away your money on either of these 2 gadgets. Or you can check out the Archo's jukebox multimedia 20.
.RAM, .AU, or .MIDI files either let alone my 8-tracks, but do I rank about it at the top of my lungs trying to drown out everyone else enjoying their paltry MP3's.... Nooooo.
- 20gb (40gb coming)
- 8 hr battery life
- DivX video playback to Tv or screen
- built in 1.5in lcd screen (in color natch)
- Awesome sound controls
- USB 2.0 and Firewire (natch)
- Optional SmartMedia and Compact Flash readers
- Optional 1.2 mega pixel still and video camera
- MP3 recording via built-in mic or external
- Video recording module
- Remote Control
- ALL of these items (including optionals) come in cheaper then an iPod!!
P.S. I used mine daily for the last 6 months and it's incredible! Someone once asked me if it was solidly built. I threw it over my shoulder to demonstrate bounced it off my floor picked it up and it hadn't missed a beat!
Now the cons to be fair:
- The battery isn't easily changed
- The playlist support does NOT match the iPods
- The camera attachment needs a flash
- Video recording module has mixed reviews
Oh and it does NOT play Ogg/Vorbis. But would you people please get over it! Nothing portable plays my
I've seen a few posts asking Why God Why would you possibly want/need that much disk space. Surely 5GB is more than enough you Gluttonous Babboon.
Here's why: Imagine you have 40 GB of tunes (not that many once you rip them at good quality, and you finish doing all your cd's). Now imagine you have a 20 GB player. It's all well and fun to carry half your tunes around, but you find yourself saying 'what about CD X'? No problem, just put it on the player. But first you need to remove another CD. And once you have thousands of tracks, and start getting sick of some CD's and want to rotate in others, you realize it's a Massive Pain In The Ass. After a few gigs, the ideal is to just have all your music and skip the rigamarole. The alternative is to just never get around to listening to half your music which is the problem I was trying to avoid in buying an iPod in the first place (swapping CD's from my storage binders to my little travel binder).
Another option is the Archos Jukebox. The 20GB recorder model is ~$225, and you can upgrade the drive to 60GB.
One of the best things about the Archos is the OSS Rockbox firmware at http://rockbox.haxx.se/. New features are continually being added that make the Archos a very cool device. Plus, if you aren't happy with the way it works, just hack it yourself! The Rockbox source is very well written and easy to hack. Plus it has games.
This post is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
The USB 2.0 only version of the Zen does charge off of the USB. Just make sure it's off when it's plugged into the port. If it acts weird (won't turn on) when you unplug it, just use a paper clip in the reset hole. No problems! :) I do wish they'd fix that bug, but it's one I can live with. I know, the iPod doesnot need a reset hole.....whatever, I still love my Zen and I am only doomed to use Playcenter since I do not want to pay for Notmad. PLaycenter is not that bad....if you only use it to manage your Zen. I never play music in it.
Gorkman
Drag and drop? I've gotten spoiled by just plugging my iPod in, waiting 30 seconds while it automatically updates everything, and then unplugging
For data files, yeah, I guess I have to do the drag and drop. But for music, I'll stick to "plug and un-plug"
While I prefer the iPod, I enjoy the competition because it only make both products better in the long run. And that benefits me, and isn't that what it is all about?
The file transfer protocol is proprietary and has only been partially reverse engineered. See libnjb.sourceforge.net for details. The Linux tools for getting songs onto the device currently suck goat nuts.
The iPod on the other hand, appears as a mass storage device (generic SCSI hard drive on top of Firewire). You can easily "mount" the iPod and use "cp" to copy files to it. This is very different from the Zen, which appears as a random USB device and requires special programs and scripts to put data onto it.
I bought a Nomad Zen 20GB USB 2.0 for $212 and I think it was a waste of money. I'll probably give it to someone who uses Windows and buy an iPod.
My other first post is car post.
Since I am waiting for flac and shn decoders to be built in to these units I'll put in my $.02 on the storage capacity issue. I do not listen to many mp3 wma or other lossy formats. I have about 1T of music. Yes, 1 terrabyte. 60G is a good start to being able to handle my requirements.
This is nothing new. How many times have we heard " is enough for anyone". Time almost always proves such staters incorrect. I replace my first HDD within 2 weeks because 20Mb wasn't enough. The 30Mb I got to replace it filled quickly and needed I more but couldn't afford it. This cycle has been repeated for for aboput 17 years now.
Caveat Emptor
Here is a rather amusing message I saw over at hydrogenaudio.org about AAC support on the Nomad series.
...wearing a skin-tight topless leather jumpsuit, with cutaway buttocks and transparent crotch panel.
On my computer, I organize my MP3s using the file system. E.g., if I want to listen to "Dark Side of the Moon", it's in "music/rock/Pink Floyd/Dark Side of the Moon". I've got xmms open, and I keep the "add dir" window opened, which has a nice tree view, so to play an album, I simply double click on it in that window, and hit play over in the main window.
So, for an MP3 player, I just want something that I can copy my music directory to, and then access via a simple interface.
This is what I like about my Archos 15 gig, which was $180. It simply works the way I do...it doesn't ask me to buy into some grand unified vision of music management like the others seem to.
After an obsessive amount of research on both the iPod and the Zen, I bought a Zen.
.. I got the Zen for $300, which was $200-less than a comparable iPod.
.. I like to be able to listen to WHAT I want, WHEN I want, without having to futz with the iPod after each song (pre-programmed playlists have never worked well for me.. I have spontaneous music-needs
.. From what I've read, it's quite easy to upgrade your Zen to 40 (or even 60!) gigabytes. This always appealed to me, in case I find my music collection suddenly growing by a factor of 4
.. These features weren't deal-breakers for me, but I figured they'd be nice to have (especially the voice recording).
.. because the Zen looks AMAZING (it easily rivals the iPod in this regard). The metal-outside feels so much sturdier as well, and unlike the iPod, doesn't scratch at ALL.
After using the Zen extensively, I returned it for an iPod.
Initially, I was attracted to the Zen for these reasons:
- Price Value
- "Playlist on the Fly" Options
- Expandability
- FM Radio / Radio Recording / Voice Recording (with add-on remote)
- Looks.
Everyone here who has been ragging on the Zen's looks has a) never seen one in real life or b) has no tastes
I ended up returning it for these reasons:
- The user-interface was AWFUL (IMHO). To get to a particular artist would take me at least twice as long as it takes me on my iPod. Little quirks - like having to scroll to "OPEN" before you could browse an artist or album got annoying pretty quick.
- The screen is small.. it's still very usable, but not nearly as easy-to-see as the iPod's.
- The scroll-wheel was a bear to use, and scrolling through long lists was not fun (this was after a firmware-upgrade, which improved this problem somewhat).
- The buttons were not overly-easy to press, which made using the Zen a challenge when using one hand. This wasn't a huge problem, but after seeing how easy the iPod is to use, I realized how the Zen is lacking in this area.
- There are NO accessories for the Zen (unlike the iPod, which has cases, stands, docking stations, etc, etc.) - This alone, however, was hardly a deal breaker, but being stuck with Creative's case wasn't fun (it's bulky and ugly).
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Oh, one other significant difference between the two is the support you will be getting if you ever have a problem with your player. From everything I've read, Creative's 90 day-support is anywhere from "decent" to "awful", and Apple's 1 year support is nothing short of amazing (this is simply based on stories I've heard, not any statistics). Still, I was uncomfortable owning the Zen knowing that Creative only supported it for 90 days.. that's unacceptable for a consumer product of that price.
People like to compare the software that goes along with each of the players, but that's pretty trivial IMO. For the Zen, get Notmad Explorer (It'll save you a LOT of headaches), and for the iPod, get ephPod (It'll save you a LOT of headaches). Both of those programs are amazing, and make transferring to your portable-player a cinch.
I'm now a happy owner of an Apple iPod (a 20-gigger). Using some coupon codes I found for Dell, it only cost me about $420 - which is only $70 more than the $350 Zen (they discontinued the Zen's rebate, correct?). If FM-Radio, voice recording, WMA support, or expandability are essential to you, by all means, go with the Zen. Otherwise, I'd recommend the iPod to anybody.
Of course, before you buy EITHER player, you should go down to your local CompUSA and hold both of them in your hands. This is important, do not skip this step!
If anyone has any questions about either player, just ask...
Raven001
You know what's funny is that I was shocked to read above that a top guy at Creative wouldn't know what is up with MPEG-4 and especially AAC, and not even know that everything Apple (Mac OS X, QuickTime, all Mac apps, iPod, iTunes) are all fully MPEG-4 and AAC.
Then the next question the Creative guy goes to is about 48kHz sample rates! The CEO of Creative wants you to use Windows Media and he doesn't even realize that 48kHz is itself like the Windows Media format of the 1980's.
The 48kHz sample rate was chosen by the RIAA for "consumer" digital audio recording (DAT, MiniDisc, Hi8) so as to make it harder to make CD's from those recordings.
The small increase in quality you get by sampling at 48kHz instead of 44.1kHz does not pay for the HUGE decrease in audio quality you get by a Sample Rate Reduction from 48kHz to 44.1kHz. It's more destructive than converting to analog and then back to digital with good converters.
To still be talking 48kHz in 2003 is abysmal. The next rate that's useful above 44.1 is 96kHz, which is high up enough and done at 24-bit or 32-bit and gains you so much quality that you can then come down to 44.1 right at the end and you're better than if you stayed there through the whole process.
Creative's stuff is sub-par. It's good PC gear but it's not good audio gear. iPod is both good PC gear and good audio gear.
In short, iPod and Apple are MUSICAL ALREADY. Creative are not as creative as Apple.