Gates on Digital Restrictions Technologies

doormat writes "According to this article, Gates says you can choose not to use the new secure PC technology that they're developing. Is that going to be a choice like being a vegetarian, or like choosing not to eat at all?" There's also a short piece about DRM and Linux, which is a follow-up to Linus on DRM.

Comments

If you opt out

[Jimhotep]

If I opt out what will stop working?

How will I know for sure I am out?

Re:If you opt out

[amembrane]

You'll know you've opted out when your start button is greyed out, and the mouseover text reads "You have chosen not to use certain features that will greatly enhance your computing experience. This function will be unavailable until you opt to use our 'My File Tracking' feature."

Re:If you opt out

[crazyphilman]

You'll NEVER know. Actually, since they're planning on implementing a software kernel (like a mini-OS) in a BIOS chip, you won't know what it's doing at all. That secure channel between the motherboard, the video, and the peripherals? It's still there even if you "turn off" DRM. So, how do you know it isn't snooping on you? Or deliberately slowing down your non-DRM processing? Or, even non-deliberately slowing it down -- do you think they're going to waste QA time on those of us who reject their pet project? It's just a big mess.

I'll tell you this much: I don't trust Microsoft and Intel not to completely screw up the system in one way or another. They've both turned out some seriously buggy stuff over the years. Remember the floating point bug? Remember the latest Microsoft vulnerability? Remember the Intel chip-ID brouhaha? I don't trust either company. And, AMD is playing along too, so where are we going to turn?

I'm telling you guys -- stock up on fast systems now, while you can. Get all your computer purchasing out of the way this year, and skip the whole DRM thing entirely. If you're *really* forced to, you can always buy a cheapo, 500.00 box/appliance down the road (just for DRM purposes) and code on your *good* pre-Palladium machines.

Re:If you opt out

[flogger]

Opting out? How can I opt out? Will there be a big warnng box upon install that says, "Check this box if you wish to opt out of using secutiry features." Or will it be turned on by default and installed already when Joe User buys a new PC? Will it be easy to turn off?
Heck. How many Joe Users know right now if their Unique Chip Identifier is turned on in bios? (ala Pentium III UID technology).
I tend to not like this optional feature. It will take one hour for someone to release a worm that turns it on without knowledge, turns it off without knowledge, or reports all sort of fun info without Joe User's knowledge.

Re:If you opt out

[senahj]

Crazy phil man saith :
> stock up on fast systems now, while you can.
> Get all your computer purchasing out of the way this year,
> and skip the whole DRM thing entirely.

Here's where I think the dividing line is on Wintel.
I'd be grateful for corrections.

Disk drives - CPRM :
- No CPRM-mandatory products in wide distribution.

BIOS - TCPA :
- no data. Anyone know which ones have TCPA support
already built in?

Processor - La Grande :
- current P4 dice don't have La Grande, CPU IDs can be disabled.
- Prescott-design processors due "in the third quarter
of 2003" will have La Grande

Chipset -
The hot intel "Canterwood" chipset seems to work well
with non-La Grande processors. Will its successor?

OS - Palladium, EULAs, etc. :
- Windows 9x is not an operating system.
No actual security of any kind is really possible.
- Windows 2000 is a real OS, albeit kinda klunky.
but it doesn't have the hooks to make DRM mandatory.
Up to SP2 the EULAs were acceptable - then the EULA for SP3
had that scary clause about agreeing that MS could download and
install updates without your knowledge or further consent,
(now it looks like that was just CYA for the "auto update"
feature, which can be turned off). But I think that you can
run Windows 2000 at SP 2 or 3 and be in the clear, especially
if you don't rush into any further service packs or updates
without careful scrutiny. Withdrawn from market, but still
available e.g. on ebay.
- Windows XP is the same OS as Windows 2000, with a whole
lot of minor annoyances fixed. Big improvement in backward
compatibility with Windows 9x: it's a far better gaming platform.
But it was designed to be the carrot that lured people onto
Passport and MyWallet, and to support Windows Media DRM.
May already be some Palladium or precursor under the hood.
Currently being shipped on all new OEM boxen.
- Longhorn, or whatever the next generation is codenamed:
it will be possible for someone to configure it to make Palladium
mandatory. Will the owner of the HW be allowed to configure it?
- You don't own any data; you pay
a monthly fee for access to certain data, some of which you
may have created. If you quit paying, you lose acceess, and
the data might go away.

Windows Media Player
Trojan Horse. Introduces DRM, and each update locks it down tighter,
gives the user less control. EULAs and built-in DRM already
onerous and unacceptable in 7.1. People who download and install
the current WMP 9 are drinking the kool-aid.

Real Player, Quicktime, etc.
I have no knowledge. Anyone?

So, I conclude that if I wish to continue with Wintel
and still have control of my data, I *must* buy a new box
with a fast P4 on a Canterwood chipset, and I must do
it this summer while I still can.

The technology

[Bendebecker]

The technology is going to be like cars. You don't need one but not having one is a restriction in itself.

Re:The technology

[dAzED1]

My god, listen to you people...

The technology is going to be like cars. You don't need one but not having one is a restriction in itself.

Really? I mean, I personally think of automobiles as a huge technological breakthrough, the culmination of a lot of extremely signigicant technologies. It is one of the things that most impacted the 20th century. Do you REALLY think DRM is like that???

Get a grip, people. If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp, then you'll be safe in your drm-free world. And then when this MS bumble fails like so many other MS things have, everyone will see it for what it is. Is passport used the way MS said it would be? No. I could go on, but you're all too busy running for fear that the sky is falling.

TIP: The world is revolving around the US less and less every day. There will be more than plenty of places you can get things from that do what you want to do, even if all of windows gets drm-locked-down. They're a whole world out there - check it out.

Re:The technology

[JimDabell]

Really? I mean, I personally think of automobiles as a huge technological breakthrough, the culmination of a lot of extremely signigicant technologies. It is one of the things that most impacted the 20th century. Do you REALLY think DRM is like that???

Way to miss the point. He didn't say he thought that any more than he said he thought that DRM had wheels on the bottom.

Get a grip, people. If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp, then you'll be safe in your drm-free world.

You are also free to carry on using Windows 95 today... oh, but it's been EOLed, so no more security patches - hope you don't need to access an untrusted network, like, say, the Internet.

TIP: The world is revolving around the US less and less every day. There will be more than plenty of places you can get things from that do what you want to do, even if all of windows gets drm-locked-down. They're a whole world out there - check it out.

TIP: It's not just in the USA that Microsoft has a monopoly in computers.

Re:The technology

[tambo]

>And then when this MS bumble fails like so many
>other MS things have, everyone will see it for
>what it is. Is passport used the way MS said it
>would be? No.

That doesn't always happen. Microsoft is inserting more and more "creeping featuritis" into Windows. Do you really want to trust MS's assertions that they won't use it? Remember Amazon's privacy policy changes? (Today: Give us your personal information; we PROMISE not to sell it to spammers. Tomorrow: We changed our minds, and we're sure you'll love these eight trillion emails from bukkake.com.)

Let's say we all roll over and accept DRM as a harmless, unusued feature. Who's to say that buried in some EULA for Windows 2006 XP won't be a clause that using Windows Update authorizes MS to turn on DRM? With the flip of a switch (well, the toggle of a BOOL), MS becomes Hollywood's bestest pal.

I don't want to let MS embed a bomb in my system. Thanks, no.

>TIP: The world is revolving around the US less
>and less every day.

TIP: Network effects are powerful forces. Sure, we can switch, if we don't ever want to access our old Word documents or run 90% of the software that's commercially available.

David Stein, Esq.

I'm sorry, I'm offtopic...

[numbski]

However I can't help but start reading DRM differently.

Digital Rights Management
Digital Restrictions Masochism

Same diff really.

Oh, and as an opinion, he expects us not to eat. ;)

Sure...we can use pencils

[Sabalon]

How long before MS decides that they will only provide windows for this thing and anything else doesn't offer the needed security? So, you can either use these or you can use something that doesn't run Windows.

Fine for a lot of people here, but what will happen is businesses will still want windows and office, so they'll buy into this, and hardware makers will look at the other stuff as a non-profitable niche market.

Re:Sure...we can use pencils

[blahlemon]

You've got it exactly, Windows right now and probably the first couple of releases will run just fine on normal hardware but how long will it be before the hardware manufactures stop running two product lines, one secure and one open? And once that happens why would Microsoft continue to provide a version that runs on unsecure hardware?

I think a big problem with this is the companies are trying to use hardware restrictions on a primarily social problem. It's not the big companies that are providing their movies and music on a digital format that is being distributed. It's regular people who are taking camcorders into theatres and recording the movie, then downloading it onto their computer and sharing it. How can a hardware restriction effect a user created file if the user doesn't apply rights to it? You would have to disable all file mobility.

Trying to lock down the movie and sound formats won't work either because people will either (a) use older formats or (b) create their own players to be shared with the movies and music.

Re:Sure...we can use pencils

[anagama]

I recently opened my own business (IAAL). I use Linux on the Desktop. I figure that in MS-Office alone, I saved somewhere between $1200 and $1600 (4 copies). My business partner has been swapping documents with a different office - all in Word format. OOo is seamless in that respect. OOo speaks to MySQL nicely - select a form letter template, select records, hit print - it's a snap. There are some hard things - I'm frustrated with intermittent success getting a USB Clie to talk to Evolution - but the serial cable costs $20 so I've still saved a huge amount of money if I decide to give up on USB.

Windows isn't great - it's just popular (think Brittany Spears). When you are that popular, you don't have to care. Listen to our friend Bill, after saying that some Office documents might not work with other programs: In the interview, Gates said it's up to other companies to ensure interoperability. So if enough people buy into this crap, and I have to share files with them, I'll have to cave in, buy into MS ... might as well get some Boyz to Men as well.

Classic multi-vendor finger pointing...

[TopShelf]

Software vendors have pulled the "hey, it wasn't me," line since time immemorial. This does represent a mechanism by which content providers will simply only release new material that require DRT to access. I remember a similar incidence when a new version of Pocket PC came out with DRM that basically rendered my Jornada blind to the world of eBooks.

Normally I'm not as hard on MS as most of the /. crowd, but gotta give a "boo... hiss..." on this one.

Strong-arming

[sssmashy]

The technology has raised eyebrows not only for the absolute control it would grant such creators of digital content as music and movie companies but also because it is being driven by Microsoft, which has a reputation for strong-arming the computer industry.

And the next nominee for "Understatement of the Year" is... Matthew Fordahl, of the Associated Press!

Sounds like starving to me...

[Bendy Chief]

Verbatim from the article:

"They just don't understand," Gates said. "That's like saying because we make a word processor, that reporters write what we want them to write or something. I can give you examples to prove that's not the case." (About antitrust fears with DRM)

Wow. He sure allayed my fears. What he meant to say is, no, they don't have to write what he wants, but they do have to write in the FORMAT he wants, or get left behind. This whole DRM off-switch issue is the same quandary. Turn DRM off and watch your access to many online resources, that are becoming more and more integrated with daily life, vanish. Not to mention the suspicion that very well may come with shunning DRM. "What do you have to hide?", say Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Ashcroft.

Re:Sounds like starving to me...

[will_die]

You mean like the EULA from some microsoft products that read

"You may not use the software in connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services, infringe any intellectual property or other rights of these parties, violate any state federal or international law, or promote racism, hatred, or pornography."
?
For more info try this article

Terrorist tool?

[gillbates]

Creators of top-secret government documents, financial records or other sensitive material could assign rights to sensitive files, allowing them to be viewed only on trusted computers running the system. Anyone else -- hackers and malicious programs included -- would be locked out.

Maybe it's just me, but I would think that such a system would also enable terrorists to send "sensitive files" to each other, with the full confidence that law enforcement could not read them.

Consider the above statement reworded a little:

Creators of top-secret documents, terrorist plans or other sensitive material could assign rights to sensitive files, allowing them to be viewed only on trusted computers running the system. Anyone else -- FBI hackers, law enforcement and malicious programs included -- would be locked out.

You know...

[dethl]

Consumers shouldn't be worried that Microsoft Corp.'s new security technology will wrest control of their PCs and give it to media companies, Bill Gates said Tuesday.

And we're supposed to believe someone who has a pretty good grip on the OS situation, and would do anything to keep that grip? Personally, I would rather have the chance of being hacked but also have the ability to do anything I want on my computer. I don't want a company telling me what I can and cannot do with my own computer. If we allow them to do this, who knows how much farther these guys will go?

is it just me ?

[ramzak2k]

why has security been linked so much DRM these days ? Whenever i read an article on some kind of rights management initiative - there is almost talk about securing the PC. Security & DRM are two different things ! wih gates works on them individually.

Its amazing how the quote from Benjamin dude works so well here.
Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security

Seems like there always was , will be people trying to take away freedom under the pretext of security - even in computing !

Yeah yeah...

[spacefight]

In the interview, Gates said it's up to other companies to ensure interoperability.

Thank you Microsoft. No need for comments here.

Thank you!

[borgdows]

>Gates says you can choose not to use the new secure PC technology

Thank you Bill Gates my master borg!
Can I choose not to use Windows(tm) too ?

Bill will sway the public

[Mr Smidge]

As the well-informed geeks that we are, we are quite aware of the fact that it's perfectly possible to run a secure operating system and maintain it in a good way without DRM in the manner advertised.

However, I can predict that M$ will make a valiant effort to try to persuade the public into thinking that not being part of their Next Generation Secure Computing Base will put them at some kind of immediate risk. The only real risk I can think of here will be the credit given to you if you choose not to run a trusted operating system.

"Hello, I'd like support for M$ Cock-In-Yo-Ass V6 please"
"Are you using NGSCB?"
"No"
"We need you to be running a trusted operating system so that we can remotely assist you, sir."
*Dial tone*

This movement won't be a good thing.

Security! Security! Security!

[mrpuffypants]

The people that microsoft constantly tout that the DRM features are designed to integrate security with the hardware and the software. How the hell can I trust a company that consistently falls down on security with their software products to "protect" my hardware?

I don't have a big problem with Windows being insecure, because data can be backed up and restored painlessly, but if their brand of "security" extends to my hardware then I may have to be forced to constantly replace hard drives that spin at 40,000 RPM because of "security" flaws befor a patch can be released.

The whole Palladium/DRM issue is about trust. They don't have it for me and I don't have it for them.

Shakes head in frustration

[molarmass192]

So long as software is read and interpreted by some piece of hardware, there will ALWAYS exist the possibility of hacking that software. Yeah you can create monster keys from hell and lock them down in hardware but, as the XBox project has shown, all it takes is a bug in a signed piece of software and you can kiss your secured system bye bye. Also, there may be exploits available in the firmware itself and there's the popular brute force attack too. If you connect a box (Microsoft, Linux, Mac, etc) to any network, you implicitly accept a certain level of risk of being compromised. This effort will just lead to more complacency. The only truly 100% secured system system is one that's powered off.

Re:Be careful what you wish for

[clonebarkins]

...I think many people have reached the point where they will view computing with mistrust until security can pretty much be guaranteed...

There is no such thing as guaranteed security.

Pushing the right buttons

[smartin]

M$ is going to be successful at this because they know what buttons to push:

• You will be safe from viruses.
  
• You will be able to avoid spam.
  
• You can protect your content.
  
• We will enable delivery of digital content.
  
• Tigher system security.
  

The people that respond to these buttons will be the government, content and software companies, corporations and joe dumb user. Most of these people either don't think about or care about the hidden agenda chained to M$'s master plan. This agenda includes:

• Expansion of the the monopoly by locking out competators.
  
• New monopoly in content encapsulation and delivery.
  
• Absolute control of what will and will not run on a PC.
  
• Loss of fair use.
  

Hmm

[TitusC3v5]

I think I just decided to buy a Mac.

Let's not forget about the DMCA folks!

[gosand]

OK, so Gates says that they won't force people to use it. Uh-huh. As with the EULA, he reserves the right to change his mind at a later date of his choosing.

So in 5 years, all AMD and Intel chips will have DRM enabled, and Windows will have it on by default. There is absolutely nothing to prevent this from happening. Now in this scenario, if you find a way to disable the DRM, either in the chip or in the software, you can be prosecuted under the DMCA. Or maybe detained without a trial under the Patriot Act as a threat to national security. (if they succeed in getting it made permanent)

Maybe I am creating a "worst case" scenario, but it is certainly plausible. Who would have thought 5 years ago that the US would be able to hold a few hundred people captive without a trial. Or that a college student would be sued for creating a search engine. Or a programmer would be arrested and held in jail for speaking at a security conference. Or a printer cartridge manufacturer would be sued because they are making generic cartridges. Or any of the other BS that has come out of the DMCA. Some people said "Oh, if the DMCA get abused, it will be repealed because the people won't stand for it." Here is a hint: it has been abused repeatedly, and it is nowhere near being repealed. Things are getting worse.

MS Rackettering similar to Auto Co. racketering

[SailorBob]

Get a grip, people. If you wanna use windows, keep using windows2000 or xp

I would love to sell computers with 2000 on them and not XP or whatever the next boatware is gonig to be - but I can't since M$ no longer sells licenses to old OS's. Sure, individuals can buy old licenses 2nd hand and install themselves, but that's an extremely small percentage of people. 95% of people buy their machine with a pre-installed OS, and that is going to be the latest M$ bloatware because you can't run a PC business scavanging old licenses here and there. You have to have a reliable supply of licenses.

As a seller I'm forced to put whatever the latest Winbloze is on the machines I sell. Actually, forcing people to buy something they don't want or need is illegal. It's called racketeering and it's what the auto companies got smacked down on for in the 60's/70's. They were required to publish the specs for any car they no longer sell/service. M$ should be forced to publish the source for old OS's it no longer supports. M$ also shouldn't be allowed to prevent the use of such old OS's. To do so and force people to buy a newer version is racketeering.